Is a ProTrax worth it?

[troybilt]

And what would the width be with narrow front +3 aarms with 4:1 wheels? Is the +4 what I need to get to 49-50 inches? Is there any disadvantages to the +4? I'm new to the ProTrax stuff any help would be appreciated. Doing a little research before I go out and buy something I know nothing about!!

[8686]

With your narrow frame, you need the +4 front end if you want to use 4+1 wheels and end up around 49 inches or so for mx. That's the exact setup I have on my Laeger. Your width will ultimately depend on how much negative camber you run and your ride height.

Steering is effortless and the suspension has A LOT of travel.

[hartwill]

from what I hear they are a better but when you go to replace parts they are almost impossible to find and/or extremely expensive. so I guess it depends on how deep your pockets are.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 8686
With your narrow frame, you need the +4 front end if you want to use 4+1 wheels and end up around 49 inches or so for mx. That's the exact setup I have on my Laeger. Your width will ultimately depend on how much negative camber you run and your ride height.

Steering is effortless and the suspension has A LOT of travel.

I hear you want to run a stabilizer with them as well, or even 2 stick stabilizers. I've got a Precision vane type stabilizer should work good with that. Also can you run 20" shocks with either? +3 or +4's?

[8686]

Originally posted by troybilt
I hear you want to run a stabilizer with them as well, or even 2 stick stabilizers. I've got a Precision vane type stabilizer should work good with that. Also can you run 20" shocks with either? +3 or +4's?

I run a single stick type stabilizer and, like you said, sometimes you could use more. Lol. I was rolling it around my driveway with no stabilizer and no engine in it and it was insane how easy it steered. Truly effortless. My PEP front shocks are 19.25 inches long with my +4 ProTrax.

[250Renvy]

If you do get a protrax, you will likely have to source it from a complete machine/ swap your a-arms for it since people usually want 1000+ for them. I talked to baldwin a little bit ago about getting mine rebuilt and he estimated it would be $400 to $600 and a 2 month wait.

I talked to Mark about the parts again, thinking they could be sourced somewhere else and he didn't think so. Laegers want's quite a bit for a rebuild as well. If you have a press and some skills you might get away with around $300.

Just stuff to keep in mind.

[troybilt]

Did Laeger ever make a standard balljoint +4 front end? Not that I would go that route but just seeing what my options are.

I see Laeger updated their site you can get a brand new complete front end (however, they only list the +3) for $2330 or something close to that... I'd probably go that route vs. buying a used set for 1000+ and then rebuilding it... plus anymore the used stuff like that is typicall junk been raced and wore out. IMO.

Also why hasn't the protrax really taken off in the 450r's? back in the day it was the best out there, but most pro's don't run protrax's anymore, in fact I don't know any that do... That was another reason why I asked if it was worth it. The ball joints and heims these days are quite good. I heard the protrax is almost "twichy" feeling on the steering...

Sorry if I'm asking too many questions...

BTW, Livetorideatv on ebay has a +2 and he's asking 1675 for it.. ridiculous...

[250Renvy]

They don't make the +4 normally, but Redred55 ordered one so they are available.

Personally if you can find one for a decent enough price, I'd go for it, since that is what is the "dream". No sense having a complete Laeger without a protrax or at least trying it.

The biggest question about the $2330 is whether that comes with a stem or not. They are no longer making protrax stems with the heim in it. You have to run a standard narrow stem which Laeger charges $525 for and run tie rod ends on the inside. I believe you will need caliper adapters as well since the new ones probably run 400ex calipers.

The protrax never took off on the 450's because they weren't really necessary since the combo of the newer designed a-arms, and shocks came a long way, not to mention that was when Laegers got taken over and they messed up the whole marketing thing. Price was probably a factor as well.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
They don't make the +4 normally, but Redred55 ordered one so they are available.

Personally if you can find one for a decent enough price, I'd go for it, since that is what is the "dream". No sense having a complete Laeger without a protrax or at least trying it.

The biggest question about the $2330 is whether that comes with a stem or not. They are no longer making protrax stems with the heim in it. You have to run a standard narrow stem which Laeger charges $525 for and run tie rod ends on the inside. I believe you will need caliper adapters as well since the new ones probably run 400ex calipers.

The protrax never took off on the 450's because they weren't really necessary since the combo of the newer designed a-arms, and shocks came a long way, not to mention that was when Laegers got taken over and they messed up the whole marketing thing. Price was probably a factor as well.

Sheesh, here's what they list for $2330:

Included in the Kit

4 Long Travel Chromoly A-arms
2 Pro-Trax Spindles
All necessary T-pin Hardware
Tie Rods

So that means it will work with my standard Laeger stem??

Also, AtvGalaxy on ebay has several sets of the +4+1 Laeger aarms for $800 new.. awful temping vs. $2330 plus whatever else I need... could update to 04/05 450r spindles and then I could run brand new hardkore hubs... plus the single caliper 400ex brakes suck compared to the 450r's... I have 400ex brakes on mine now.

But you're absolutely right, if I want the "best" then the protrax is the way to go, just better bend over and take it dry!

[312R1]

Troy...The pro-trax is hands down the best frontend you can buy. I have the narrow frame with +4's and I run 3+2 wheels and I'm at 50 inches. My Axis shocks are also 19.25 eye to eye.

-Steve

[b.lee]

Originally posted by troybilt
Sheesh, here's what they list for $2330:

Included in the Kit

4 Long Travel Chromoly A-arms
2 Pro-Trax Spindles
All necessary T-pin Hardware
Tie Rods

So that means it will work with my standard Laeger stem??

Also, AtvGalaxy on ebay has several sets of the +4+1 Laeger aarms for $800 new.. awful temping vs. $2330 plus whatever else I need... could update to 04/05 450r spindles and then I could run brand new hardkore hubs... plus the single caliper 400ex brakes suck compared to the 450r's... I have 400ex brakes on mine now.

But you're absolutely right, if I want the "best" then the protrax is the way to go, just better bend over and take it dry!

You need a Pro-trax stem... standard will not work.

My quad had a protrax front end on it.
Had to take it off because I trusted someone I shouldn't have and sent parts to an unreliable source.

Anyways, I have a laeger narrow framed quad for $3000, w/ cr 500 link and gibson +3 +1's w/ PEP 19.25". Get it out of my garage. *Un-hijack PM Me*

[Lasher]

Back in the day there were really only 3 players in the 250R aftermarket scene.

Laeger - The original and one of the most popular with the pros.
Roll Design (lobo) - Can onto the scene after Laeger
Walsh - Was told he used the two above to make improvements.

Everything else is pretty much stock replacement chasiss.

Now, on my 89 chassis, I have all Laeger components. But this was back when Laeger was owned/run correctly. Until the "new" Laeger gets his act together (and prices within reason) I will not be getting parts from them.

Last summer I picked up a full Walsh 250R and kicking myself for not doing it sooner. If my 89 with Laeger parts was a mustang, the Walsh is an F1 car. That much of a difference. You cannot go wrong with any of the three above, but at this point I also care about customer service. Dealing the "new" Laeger is a nightmare, while I have spoken to Mike Walsh about an issue on a Sunday afternoon after he got home from lunch with his mom. But even with the customer service, I never dreamed that the Walsh chassis was that much better than stock. Night and Day difference.

So...Laeger parts are hard to come by, expensive and to me (oldschool) Laeger is just not the same. Nothing but Walsh in my garage from now on.

[800screws]

if u go with atvgalaxy's arms, u can also use 450r spindles, hubs, and front brakes! just a thought to keep it modern.

u know what else to think about....if u race anyway....what are u going to do if u wreck or get in a crash? i'd hate to total a tpin front end!

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 800screws
if u go with atvgalaxy's arms, u can also use 450r spindles, hubs, and front brakes! just a thought to keep it modern.

u know what else to think about....if u race anyway....what are u going to do if u wreck or get in a crash? i'd hate to total a tpin front end!

I was doing some homework on that last night, sounds like its hard to set the camber right with the 450r spindles(??)... I should have measured mine when I had them, I had a set of both 06's and 05's, plus my 89's... I wonder if you run +4's bottoms and +3's tops you could get the adjustment for the camber.

just a thought.

[J.B.]

^Thats why i have not went to an aftermarket frame. I'd cry if i hooked a tree sometime in the woods and tweaked something.

[tritty_wall]

Troy I just put 450r font spindles,hubs, calibers on my leager +2. I have my tops pulled in pritty much all the way, and it sittin at 2 deg. I'm no mechanic by any means and it wasn't very hard, but the highest deg. i could go was 2.5 deg. with them in all the way.

[Lasher]

While not about T-pin, this is about aftermarket chassis...

Here is what I know about the Walsh chassis, I have the 250R chassis and building a Walsh CRF for my son. Walsh and I talked for a while about what parts to use...250R or 450R.

The swing-arm is different between the 450R and 250R. I am sure you could get the 250R frame and a swing-arm that take 450R parts.

The arms, I am pretty sure you can use any, 250R, 400ex or 450R from our conversations. My 250R chassis has 400ex spindles with 250R brake adapters. But Walsh told me I could use any of them for the CRF (and assume 250R chassis).

[troybilt]

I know 450r aarms will not match up to the frame, without modifications to the aarms or frame. I measured my 450r when I had it just to be sure. Don't know if that's what you meant or not.

trittywall, how much adjustment is there in the top ball joint? I curious if I went with +3 top aarms and +4 bottoms, i'd have more adjustment or would it be too much?

[tritty_wall]

I just went and measured and From thread to tread there is 2 3/8 in. this is the new leager arms got them new about yr. ago. I guess it depends on who much camber you want. I just went with 2 deg. because 1-3 is what they say is good for woods and i'm riding woods/trail 95% of the time. Hopes this helps

[troybilt]

I'm lookig for around 3-3.5 degs of camber for mx/dunes.

I run ~2 on my Xc bike, they say 0-2 is good for XC for quicker steering and less push. My 450r with long travel was set up with 3 degrees.

[Lasher]

Originally posted by troybilt
I know 450r aarms will not match up to the frame, without modifications to the aarms or frame. I measured my 450r when I had it just to be sure. Don't know if that's what you meant or not.


Sorry...talking about spindles, not the arms.

I even asked Walsh about which year to use for the 450R spindles. His response that either the 04-05 (people seem to like more) or the 06+, that the handling problem is with the arms/chassis and with the Walsh frame/arms either would work.

So you might try either years to get the proper adjustments. We have not gotten that far in the build yet to figure out which one to buy.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Lasher
Sorry...talking about spindles, not the arms.

I even asked Walsh about which year to use for the 450R spindles. His response that either the 04-05 (people seem to like more) or the 06+, that the handling problem is with the arms/chassis and with the Walsh frame/arms either would work.

So you might try either years to get the proper adjustments. We have not gotten that far in the build yet to figure out which one to buy.

I know that the 06 stick out farther than the 04/05's, from what I remember when I had the sets side by side. The reason I thought the 06's were worse was do to the pivot points for aarms mounts to the spindles were farther away from the verticle plane of the hubs, ...think 3:2 offset vs. 4:1 offset... don't know if there is any truth to that, just what i looked like to me. Walsh is the man and would know best.

[deathman53]

you only can use t-pin spindles on a t-pin front end. The spindles are like nothing anything else. Some Polaris snowmobile spindles are the closest thing to them. A Laeger ball joint front end, can use any spindle setup. I'd use 400ex or 04/05 450r.



Originally posted by troybilt
Sheesh, here's what they list for $2330:

Included in the Kit

4 Long Travel Chromoly A-arms
2 Pro-Trax Spindles
All necessary T-pin Hardware
Tie Rods

So that means it will work with my standard Laeger stem??

Also, AtvGalaxy on ebay has several sets of the +4+1 Laeger aarms for $800 new.. awful temping vs. $2330 plus whatever else I need... could update to 04/05 450r spindles and then I could run brand new hardkore hubs... plus the single caliper 400ex brakes suck compared to the 450r's... I have 400ex brakes on mine now.

But you're absolutely right, if I want the "best" then the protrax is the way to go, just better bend over and take it dry!

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by 312R1
Troy...The pro-trax is hands down the best frontend you can buy. I have the narrow frame with +4's and I run 3+2 wheels and I'm at 50 inches. My Axis shocks are also 19.25 eye to eye.

-Steve

here you go troy, steve has what you need, and i am sure its as good as a new one..

steve, didnt you mention about parting out your r soon, if no one buys it complete....

[woodsracer144]

Not to get off track but didnt GT thunder make a "pro trax" copy set up? using the stock style a-arms? or one that normally used a ball joint?

Also do you get a lot of bump steer with the t pin?

how was LSR's t-pin set up? i know it was bass aackwards from the pro traxa

[312R1]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
here you go troy, steve has what you need, and i am sure its as good as a new one..

steve, didnt you mention about parting out your r soon, if no one buys it complete....

I have a few people interested in it hole...still trying to deside if I really want to part with it. lol

[Langbolt]

Ok...so this is what it worked out to:

Laeger narrow front / stock suspension rear - Frame

Laeger Pro-Trax T-pin Front end....I'm thinkin' they're +2

3x2 offset rims

For a total front width of 46" ????

I was hoping for 48" to 49"


:(

[Langbolt]

These are the A-Arms I used (with fresh powder of course)....measuring 16-1/2" eye-to-eye....So are these +2 ????

Would +3 be 17-1/2" & +4 be 18-1/2"

Anyone know ???

Thanks in advance

:D

[matt250r21]

Those are my old arms. They are +3 +0 forward. Keep in mind with the narrow frame you lose 2 inches. I don't understand how you are only at 46 wide, with 3x2 rims you should be at 48 wide.

Measured my +4 T pin, it is 17 1/2 eye to eye.

[laeger400]

I still have some bronze bushings that I had made when I had a laeger bike. I have a set and a half I think its been years. lol

http://i1109.photobucket.com/albums/h426/jdub160/laegerbronzebushings.jpg

Jerry

[croat1]

laeger400...PM sent

[8686]

Langbolt, all your measurements and settings need to be made with you on the quad and the suspension settled. That being said and with you on the quad, what is your ride height?

[danhung11]

Laeger400: if you can turn some more of those, folks would come out of the woodworks.

Troybilt, let's go break in my Laeger and you can see what this thing feels like. The best description I have is it goes where you want it to go...:D

[laeger400]

I had them made back in 05. That is all I had left and they are already gone. I will see what I can do though.

Jerry

[danhung11]

Originally posted by laeger400
I had them made back in 05. That is all I had left and they are already gone. I will see what I can do though.

Jerry

Keep us posted. Thanks Jerry!

[jrspawn]

Like some others have posted, you cant go wrong with walsh or laeger.

Some of the laeger quads i have built you could steer it with one finger easily. But..... on the quads i ran myself i never felt good without running dual stabilizers. And in my opinion, that Totally defeats the purpose of the effortless steering. Now Walsh..... thats where its at:devil:

[sj281]

i have 312r1 steves old quad well most of it troy has the t pin front i like the protrax on my laeger suzuki but really the roll design lobo front end on it now +3 with 3+2 wheels and i like it better than the protrax it seems to steer better with less twitchy steering but both are great t pin will wear out way faster in sand and mud

[troybilt]

Originally posted by sj281
i have 312r1 steves old quad well most of it troy has the t pin front i like the protrax on my laeger suzuki but really the roll design lobo front end on it now +3 with 3+2 wheels and i like it better than the protrax it seems to steer better with less twitchy steering but both are great t pin will wear out way faster in sand and mud

I plan to find out how I like the T-pin. From a mathematical/design standpoint I can't see that it would be gobs better than like a KTM or LTR spindle. The T-pin spindles weight 2-3 times more than the KTM spindles and the offset is a little more. However, its really cool design and I would not have a Laeger bike any other way! They move so much more smoothly than a balljoint design.

I'm running a Precision Pro puck style stabilizer, I think that is the only way to inhibit the twitchy steering. ...or 2 stick stabilizers, I'd also run a little more caster to reduce that as well.

[woodsracer144]

I have to run twin sticks on my walsh chassis also, I'm running +2's with 4-1's and I still have to set my toe alittle bit but it still is really twitchy...

have you ever looked at the Cannondale spindles? thats what im gonna try out next, they feel much lighter than the 400ex one's i have.

[troybilt]

Here is the KTM's they were the smallest and lightest I've ever seen... (I have not studied the Cannondale's...)

04/05 450 vs. 250r

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/robltc/DSCN0863.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/robltc/DSCN0863.jpg

KTM Spindle:
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/robltc/DSCN0969.jpg
http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i260/robltc/DSCN0968.jpg

[woodsracer144]

I'll weigh and get some pics of the C dale's I have. It won't be till thurs cause I school and work and I'm up at 6am and go to bed about midnight....

can you swap any of the honda calipers on the KTM or do you need all the KTM brake set up also?

[jrspawn]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
I have to run twin sticks on my walsh chassis also, I'm running +2's with 4-1's and I still have to set my toe alittle bit but it still is really twitchy...

have you ever looked at the Cannondale spindles? thats what im gonna try out next, they feel much lighter than the 400ex one's i have.

Run a longer arm on that frame and you will not need the stabilizers, well at least the way I ran my caster/camber I didn't.

The cannondale spindles will also require a different upper a arm from walsh.

Justin

[Motofool250r]

switch to a canister style stabilizer and you will be alot happier id bet then 2 stick types

[hontrx265r]

my 2 cents.. for being such an old design with no revisions the t pin is still pretty solid. I run a precision, and it pulls all the shake out. Pinit built me some upper adj. arms for my protrax. I have to make new upper and lower coned bushings so I can extract the newly found caster but once I get it. I think this will be a fantastic way to go.

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by jrspawn
Run a longer arm on that frame and you will not need the stabilizers, well at least the way I ran my caster/camber I didn't.

The cannondale spindles will also require a different upper a arm from walsh.

Justin

im in the woods man, 46 is the max I could be.