How are we suppose to get parts???

[Honda 250r 001]

Honda has quit making all 250r transmission gears, shafts, spacers, shift forks, etc etc as most of you may know... So has anyone heard of a company stepping up to make any non-available parts for the 250r? Any news or any suggestions on how to get parts? Is there anyone on here who has connections with a company who could help us out here to make cases to accept other trannies or actually make new gears themselves? Do you think if we started nagging on a company like ESR to start helpin us out here, they would actually do anything? Or what have you guys been doin to get non-available parts.

[fourtrax_r]

just talked with baldwin a few days ago and he is thinking of steping up to have gears made due to have ALOT of requests. also found a company that repairs old gears....can't remember the name. Arlin from led was telling me about them and really talked highly of them.

[machwon]

I bought the last 2 sets of shift forks. I willing to part with one set if interested.

[Honda 250r 001]

Thats great news!!!!!! thanks for the info! but gears is just the half of it. The round bushings that go between the shaft and the gear is mainly what i need. How have you guys been getting those?

[machwon]

If you have a nice honda dealer they will run a locator on the part number. Then you have to call that dealer to buy the part if its still on the shelf. I doubt they are available as i tried some of those items last february. Thats when I discovered the shift fork issue and bought all of them available in the US. I also scooped up the last good shift forks at the local ATV slavage. That's where I would look first.

When I bought the shift forks from salvage they asked if they were discontinued, I said I don't think so why? Otherwise they will charge 100% of new but he found a part number on line so they were only 50% of new ones. Yukon gears are it, 88-89 transmissions is all they fit, so IMO the 85-86 versions are useless if trashed already...

[atvmxr]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
How to get parts??

I dont know, but Im getting kinda freaked out lately. about to max out a couple of credit cards just to buy up whatever I can find!!

[troybilt]

I figure when the time comes, I'll reverse engineer the parts... got enough connections now I think I could build or have made just about any part. Right now I lack the motivation, I've got 3 motors and so far they are all good.

I think the wisest move would be if someone developed cases to accept as many CR and/or CRF parts as possible. JMO

[zedicus00]

in theory honda still produces 250R parts. their are some requirements to this though. they only do batches every few years and there has to be an inquiry limit met. youll notice some parts have 5 or more different part numbers with most of them discontinued, each part number was a batch revision that got tweaked for cost.

the key to getting a batch started is getting enough people to make an inquiry request before the time limit. the dealer actually has to turn in an order request for the part, not just look up stock on hand.

[zedicus00]

Originally posted by troybilt
I figure when the time comes, I'll reverse engineer the parts... got enough connections now I think I could build or have made just about any part. Right now I lack the motivation, I've got 3 motors and so far they are all good.

I think the wisest move would be if someone developed cases to accept as many CR and/or CRF parts as possible. JMO

ive been down this road, unless your doing the work yourself dont count on being able to get parts reliably. machinists get busy and people priority's change.

[troybilt]

Here's my beef with trying to order the parts that may or may not be discontinued, is you better have the cash in hand or you could wind up with a whole bunch of parts that you thought they couldn't get for awhile...

..or worse yet, 6 months to a year later when they do re-release these "parts" there is going to be about 5 guys (that I could think of...:rolleyes: ) that will throw 10k+ on buying up all those parts, then resale them on ebay for about 10x the price... I don't blame them one bit, but I don't have that kind of money for hobby. Just look at the OEM plastic, they did a run of them and look what happened... I've got a family to think about and this is just a hobby, I'm not a parts hoarder...

I don't have 500-1000+ bucks just throw around on the possibility of getting cases, or (insert any other part). Good luck getting a group of people to "try" and order stuff just so Honda sees the demand. You'll get a whole bunch of armchair quarter backs, that say they are ready and willing, then when the time comes to pullout the check book, those people vanish... Just ask All250r, similar issue with IMS pegs...

The other option is remanufacture, i.e. take worn out "parts" and build them back up or refurbish them to original specs. Its not as hard as it sounds, we do this all the time in our industry and there is a very lucrative business in doing so.

At least in my mind, my plan is sound... I control my own destiny, sort of speak...

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by troybilt
Here's my beef with trying to order the parts that may or may not be discontinued, is you better have the cash in hand or you could wind up with a whole bunch of parts that you thought they couldn't get for awhile...

..or worse yet, 6 months to a year later when they do re-release these "parts" there is going to be about 5 guys (that I could think of...:rolleyes: ) that will throw 10k+ on buying up all those parts, then resale them on ebay for about 10x the price... I don't blame them one bit, but I don't have that kind of money for hobby. Just look at the OEM plastic, they did a run of them and look what happened... I've got a family to think about and this is just a hobby, I'm not a parts hoarder...

I don't have 500-1000+ bucks just throw around on the possibility of getting cases, or (insert any other part). Good luck getting a group of people to "try" and order stuff just so Honda sees the demand. You'll get a whole bunch of armchair quarter backs, that say they are ready and willing, then when the time comes to pullout the check book, those people vanish... Just ask All250r, similar issue with IMS pegs...

The other option is remanufacture, i.e. take worn out "parts" and build them back up or refurbish them to original specs. Its not as hard as it sounds, we do this all the time in our industry and there is a very lucrative business in doing so.

At least in my mind, my plan is sound... I control my own destiny, sort of speak...

As much as everybody loves/needs power, that is half the reason why there are so many busted motors.

I was lucky enough to get ahold of almost all the parts necessary for a complete bottom end brand new in the package as well as a few take out's from the ATC motors. The plan was that if ever I am able (or somebody else is) we could source out and re-manufacture them direct from the old parts since it would be hard to spec stuff from used worn parts.

I did go out and drop a few dimes on parts, but having them sit there is somewhat of a burden. If anybody is serious about remanufacturing parts and has the capital, I have all the gears and cases and parts new.

Troy - the thing is too, when I ordered a bunch of parts they didn't tell me they were discontinued but took my money and 3 weeks later told me they would not be available. So yeah, they make it hard because they will take your money to process the order even if they are not available just so honda has an order. With the prices they list, I know I can't afford to keep tying up money like that, so most people can't either. Honda needs some other way of establishing interest.


Is there anyway to scan all the parts into the computer for future reference? I don't have a clue how parts get manufactured, but it would be cool if we could then I could use them and not have to worry about the possibility of no new parts to reference if honda never produces parts again.

[rocketshops]

Who is interested in a brand new set of case halves? I know someone who has a set still in the boxes.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy


Troy - the thing is too, when I ordered a bunch of parts they didn't tell me they were discontinued but took my money and 3 weeks later told me they would not be available. So yeah, they make it hard because they will take your money to process the order even if they are not available just so honda has an order. With the prices they list, I know I can't afford to keep tying up money like that, so most people can't either. Honda needs some other way of establishing interest.

Honestly I think Honda's ship has sailed. They've made their bed to sleep in and its not with 2 strokes, and they are going to have to live with it. They may alianate a whole group of people just like us on the dirtbike side as well.

My thoughts are this, yes the trx250r motor is a great motor, but its not perfect. It has its problems too, its down on the power side by today's standards, hell pick your issue... I want a "new" and "improved" trx250r motor... and I think its going to be left up to us to come up with it.

Here's what I'd like to see on the New and Improved 250r motor.

1.) More HP, don't care on cc's
2.) reverse (or the possibility of reverse), I like the CDI reverse idea...
3.) adjustable ignition, or 2 position iginition like on the new Husabergs.... with provisions for lights.
4.) e-start option, getting old and arthritis in my knees don't help much when it comes to kicking those 220lbs compression 250r motors...
5.) standard powervalve (...at least we can get an aftermarket one...)
6.) I could live without Fuel injection, but since I'm dreaming, lets add it on the list. Oh, and a closed loop system too...
7.) well if its going to be a new bike, might as well have an MX and XC version of it too... seems to be the way of everyone else

Now why is that so hard for BIG Red to figure that out. they could build these and literally own the MX and XC circuits and they'd sell like freaking hot cakes.

As a design engineer, we spend millions on VOC (Voice of the customer), hell Honda could log on here for about 5 minutes and get all the Voice they could stand for free!!

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by troybilt
Honestly I think Honda's ship has sailed. They've made their bed to sleep in and its not with 2 strokes, and they are going to have to live with it. They may alianate a whole group of people just like us on the dirtbike side as well.

My thoughts are this, yes the trx250r motor is a great motor, but its not perfect. It has its problems too, its down on the power side by today's standards, hell pick your issue... I want a "new" and "improved" trx250r motor... and I think its going to be left up to us to come up with it.

Here's what I'd like to see on the New and Improved 250r motor.

1.) More HP, don't care on cc's
2.) reverse (or the possibility of reverse), I like the CDI reverse idea...
3.) adjustable ignition, or 2 position iginition like on the new Husabergs.... with provisions for lights.
4.) e-start option, getting old and arthritis in my knees don't help much when it comes to kicking those 220lbs compression 250r motors...
5.) standard powervalve (...at least we can get an aftermarket one...)
6.) I could live without Fuel injection, but since I'm dreaming, lets add it on the list. Oh, and a closed loop system too...
7.) well if its going to be a new bike, might as well have an MX and XC version of it too... seems to be the way of everyone else

Now why is that so hard for BIG Red to figure that out. they could build these and literally own the MX and XC circuits and they'd sell like freaking hot cakes.

As a design engineer, we spend millions on VOC (Voice of the customer), hell Honda could log on here for about 5 minutes and get all the Voice they could stand for free!!

This would be quite expensive to try to manufacture 250r motors like this with todays market. Why reproduce parts to build a somewhat "stock" motor when you can get powervalve and more power out of a aftermarket cylinder? I think that making cases to accept a newer style tranny would be the best option if it wouldnt be too expensive to try to mock up.

And yea, when you think about it why would honda want to still make parts for the 250r? They already have their name today with their 450, and i believe they will never go back to a 2-stroke design. So i believe honda is out of the picture when it comes to helping with parts on anything 2-stroke...

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy

Is there anyway to scan all the parts into the computer for future reference? I don't have a clue how parts get manufactured, but it would be cool if we could then I could use them and not have to worry about the possibility of no new parts to reference if honda never produces parts again.

Absolutely, its costly but I've got a supplier already lined up that keeps bugging me about it. I was going to send them my 250r cases to have them scanned. For nurb surfaces... i.e. CAD models that I can use it was around $1800 total for both sides. that's just for the cases, but those are the mostl "complex" of the parts.

Now with a few hours of work, I've purchased all of the components to build my own complete 3D scanner and have had some luck doing a few test scans. Check out http://www.david-laserscanner.com/ this is what I've been working on.

Problem is, I won't go into too much detail, but the model you get out of those scans is a FACET model, which for all intensive purposes is a "point cloud" not very useful for engineers, more used for gaming and hightech video type stuff, they don't retain the engineering data like tolerances and things.... What we need is nurb surfaces, this is a fancy name for Engineering 3D CAD files, its what is used in Solid Works, ProE, many more. Now, you can convert FACETS to NURBS, but that too is very expensive software... most of it is a manual process on top of that and time consuming. I've done some of it myself. Anyway, sorry to go into too much detail there but you see what the problems we have.

My point is scanning it is one thing, getting that scan into a format we can use is completely different, but its possible.

[hondamancbr03]

Gentlemen,
If cases are the most sought after pieces then has anyone thought about contacting Mattoon? They build CNC billet cases for Banshee and with enough $$$ and prodding they might be able to do 250R cases.
If things continue to go they way they are I will be building a hybrid (450R) so I can continue to enjoy the feel of the 250r handling which in my opinion has not been matched.

[troybilt]

I just sent an inquiry to them now. We'll see that they say. I've asked another machine shop in MI, about doing some billet cases as well.

[hondamancbr03]

Now you have my brain stuck on this subject.....I have a machinist that I have used for almost 20yrs that is the best I have ever experienced, he designed and built straight cut gears for the Banshee drive gears, he designed and made mono cylinder for the Banshee, they are a mold so I’m not sure what foundry did the mold.....I will be dropping off some work for him today and ask about making gears or at least the same set Yukon was selling.

It might take a lot of prodding to get him to do the gears but I think it's possible if enough people wanted/needed them.

Superiorsleeve.com

[250Renvy]

I as well as other have contacted Mattoon about 250R cases. They have been considering it for a while, but the fact is they will still be $2000+ for a set.

Do any of you have that much loyalty to the 250R that you would pay $2K for a set of cases?

I asked about creating a counterbalanced cr250 case set and they were not interested.

[troybilt]

2 Large would be a touch much for me, imo. I'll take a reman 250r case for 300...

Would you be happy with a CR250r motor? Cause you don't have to have a counter-balancer to reduce the vibrations. Just saying. That is a common misconception, its one option but there are others that I've stated before. plus there are other problems like rear kick start, lights, etc, etc...

I just read my Oct 82 DW magazine and they used to take the counter balancers out of those motors... but that's another topic for another thread.

[hondamancbr03]

I have a Banshee and my 250R...After riding my 250R I would pay 2k to keep my 250R alive and well.
There was a local guy selling a factory Honda 250R that has the CR engine, the report I recieved was the entire bike would vibrate from the engine.
Due you have a link to a thread about the dues and don't of installing a CR engine in a 250R frame? I'm curious about this being an option.

Thanks

[1promodfan]

Well I know me for one,I won't be shilling out $2000 for any cases.

The only problem I see with Honda trying to develop a 2 stroke engine (which ain't gonna happen) is the cost. I would hate to see what a new 250R would cost.

[8686]

If you ask me, this thread is sillyness. Not one in a hundred people is gonna pay the kind of money most of these parts are gonna cost, even if someone is able to make them.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 8686
If you ask me, this thread is sillyness. Not one in a hundred people is gonna pay the kind of money most of these parts are gonna cost, even if someone is able to make them.

...sillyness is giving up and riding a 4 stroke... I can say that now I traded mine off!! :D :D

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 8686
If you ask me, this thread is sillyness. Not one in a hundred people is gonna pay the kind of money most of these parts are gonna cost, even if someone is able to make them.

Well looks like im the one out of one hundred... The problem is, im 16, i have no money. I would spend all i could to get new parts available again!

Id rather die than get rid of my 2-stroke for a 4-fart.

[8686]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
Well looks like im the one out of one hundred... The problem is, im 16, i have no money. I would spend all i could to get new parts available again!

Id rather die than get rid of my 2-stroke for a 4-fart.


:huh

Wow. Anyways.....how can you be the one in a hundred when you're not gonna buy the $2,000 cases? That's exactly my point, Albert. Everyone wants them. Nobody is gonna buy them.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 8686
:huh

Wow. Anyways.....how can you be the one in a hundred when you're not gonna buy the $2,000 cases? That's exactly my point, Albert. Everyone wants them. Nobody is gonna buy them.

If all i needed to finish my build was cases, and I searched for a year and couldnt find any. I would pay the 2 grand for cases... You do what you gotta do.

Oh and by the way dude, i would appreciate it, if you wouldnt come trackin up my thread. If the parts are ever available again, we will see who forks out the money for them.

[slamdak8782]

Id but a used 250r whole before I paid that much. We will still have parts for a long while and eventually someone will build some stuff.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
Id but a used 250r whole before I paid that much. We will still have parts for a long while and eventually someone will build some stuff.

You cant just assume companies will begin making parts. Next thing you know, another used 250r wont be found for under 2800 when parts get really scarce. Especially new parts, when your buying used, it could be work worse than the current parts you have... If theres any way anyone could talk companies into making parts, like esr did with their cylinder, and they do like esr did and buy a bunch of em, and then they can sell em for a more affordable price...

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by 8686
If you ask me, this thread is sillyness. Not one in a hundred people is gonna pay the kind of money most of these parts are gonna cost, even if someone is able to make them.

Personally I would like to have a set of Mattoon cases and if available will consider paying to have them built...The casesand a very small amount of my tranny are the only stock 250R items left on my bike. Everything else is after market. I like looking at my bike knowing it's 98% custom made for me and I would be willing to spend the money to keep it that way.

Like Mother always said...If you don't have anything nice to say then shut up.

[250Renvy]

Unfortunately what will happen is that when honda completely stops making parts for the motor, stock unused quads will become donors, people will buy them for parts, this will dwindle the numbers of 250R's out there. The price of 250R's will then go up to a point where people that have mint quads just sitting will make a point to sell them because they are worth money and since they are not being used, who cares.

As the numbers dwindle the only person who will step up to build/manufacture parts is an absolute crazy die hard with tons of cash (probably from the lottery) or WE as 250R owners will have to bind together and collectively decide to make them. That's a fat chance from happening because everybody is talk until action needs to be taken then people back out - they back out of fear of cost or fear of backlash.

Politics is a prime example. The people run the country, but people are too afraid to stand up. If people were tired of paying taxes just to have them wasted or go to fat cats in washington, all they'd have to do is get everybody to stop - they can't put everybody in jail an they can't seize everybodies property, but people will back out and pay them.

What we need is an alternative. I've stated that GasGas is a possible alternative. I don't know if they are going to produce their quad this year or not, but they DO produce 2-strokes and their quad is pretty much a 250R copy.

Something else we could use is good marketing in the form of a major movie. Something along the lines of RAD - for those that remember or Supercross the movie (but better) Where a privateer is on a 250R and all the factory racers are on 4-strokes and the 250R wins. All these kids that don't know what it is would be interested.

Lastly, don't forget how much of a hassle it is to most people to have to hunt down parts. Many (most) 250R owners that haven't grown up on 2-strokes aren't loyal enough to put up with the hassle and jump ship after getting one and end up getting a 4-stroke. As long as their are sport quads available, most people won't care. It's still a 4-wheeler, just different.

That's my 10 cents.

[leager-n-ky]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Personally I would like to have a set of Mattoon cases and if available will consider paying to have them built...The casesand a very small amount of my tranny are the only stock 250R items left on my bike. Everything else is after market. I like looking at my bike knowing it's 98% custom made for me and I would be willing to spend the money to keep it that way.

Like Mother always said...If you don't have anything nice to say then shut up.


X2........

[Honda 250r 001]

My main question is, What can I do to help this situation? Contact baldwin? donate money? Maybe something with cr 250 cases to accept a counterbalencer? If someone has connections, what is it going to cost to have anything done? Are we talking thousands to have a set of cases made? or gears?

[sangheraent]

i think this thread is just people over reacting. common guys really they discontinued stuff. there are tons of used parts out there and I just built my 250r from scratch and I was able to find 3 bottom ends in good shape for less then $300(blown cranks but still very usuable). and I wasnt looking very hard.

the laws of supply and demand are very simple when theres a demand you supply. if nobody was buying stuff from honda there going to stop making it. and if they stop even though there is a demand someone will step up and profit its the laws of the free market.

common you dont have to go on ebay and buy the first buy it now auction for an item. iv seen them youve seen them nobodys gonna pay 10x what an item is worth just because.

the 4th reason I think you guys are over reacting is this I live 50 feet from the us border in canada. I can drive 20 mins into the US and find several 250rs for less then 2k and a few for less then 1500. it cant really be that rare if its that damn cheap. im not rich but I know 1500 for a quad is not alot of money.

final point arnt oem cases like 1500 anyway? how is 3k(the price for banshee cases) for matoon cases alot of money when you guys are ready to pay honda 1500 for something 100x ****tyer then matoon.

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
My main question is, What can I do to help this situation? Contact baldwin? donate money? Maybe something with cr 250 cases to accept a counterbalencer? If someone has connections, what is it going to cost to have anything done? Are we talking thousands to have a set of cases made? or gears?

Yes we are talking thousands - I've heard it costs a couple hundred K to get molds made for plastic.

Casting cases will likely need releases or contracts with Honda if there are still design copyrights. If you design something different, a casting place will likely have a minimum order of 100 sets. If it cost 300/set + the cost of creating the casts that could be 30-50K.

Gears will likely have minimums as well - another 30-40K, so 500k should get most stuff back into production, but then are you going to sell 100 sets? Who knows.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Yes we are talking thousands - I've heard it costs a couple hundred K to get molds made for plastic.

Casting cases will likely need releases or contracts with Honda if there are still design copyrights. If you design something different, a casting place will likely have a minimum order of 100 sets. If it cost 300/set + the cost of creating the casts that could be 30-50K.

Gears will likely have minimums as well - another 30-40K, so 500k should get them back into production, but then are you going to sell 100 sets? Who knows.

So it looks like an individual is screwed when it comes to getting new cases and gears made. SO does anyone have any contact info on the places where you can get your old gears remanufactured? I would like to see what this costs.

[Pumashine]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Casting cases will likely need releases or contracts with Honda if there are still design copyrights.

You are forgetting casting is only part of the process. Each cast has to have extensive machine work done. Drill this, tap that, machine bearing housings, the list goes on. Then include the bearings and copyrighted? I believe we are all dreaming at this point! Only Honda will be able to bring them back IMO. If you want new cases then start considering paying at least $700 like in the classifieds. Think they will be $1000 soon.

[witech]

I dont think you guys are trying hard enough. Being part of the Cannondale R@D team we were able to get anything we needed made from new cast alumiinum valve covers to cams cranks,gearsets,flywheels,plastic,gasket molds . Most of the time it took a little ingenuity and getting in touch with the right company or people. Some things were assited with group buys but if the parts are truly needed then there will always be someone willing to front the money to get a run of something made and tag on a profit for themselves.
I dont remeber anything needing front money of $10,000 or more.
What parts are you guys out of that cant be had anymore from any source like ebay or NOS? I might be able to help with contact information of foundries or machine shops.

[afterchucker]

I have the all the parts needed to build several 85-86 250r motors. Everything is new. Prices are 40% higher than Service Honda's list price.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by afterchucker
I have the all the parts needed to build several 85-86 250r motors. Everything is new. Prices are 40% higher than Service Honda's list price.

Where in kansas are you located?

[afterchucker]

Hays

[atvmxr]

going back to page 2 (man this thread blew up fast!!)

I have a place in Houston that does scale model work. I E input CAD drawings of a oil rig and they pop out a 1/20th scale or whatever for trade shows. they can also take a real part and reverse scan it to create a smaller actual part and CAD file.

I used to work for offshore Oil & Gas and we went to this place for marketing and making scaled models for trade shows a few years ago. We were about half way into the tour and I thought - these guys can take 250r parts and make models to reproduce them.. but never acted on the idea. just throwing it out there if its a resource..

[8686]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Personally I would like to have a set of Mattoon cases and if available will consider paying to have them built...The casesand a very small amount of my tranny are the only stock 250R items left on my bike. Everything else is after market. I like looking at my bike knowing it's 98% custom made for me and I would be willing to spend the money to keep it that way.

Like Mother always said...If you don't have anything nice to say then shut up.

Sorry, I thought this was a forum where I could speak my mind. :eek2:

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Yes we are talking thousands - I've heard it costs a couple hundred K to get molds made for plastic.

Casting cases will likely need releases or contracts with Honda if there are still design copyrights. If you design something different, a casting place will likely have a minimum order of 100 sets. If it cost 300/set + the cost of creating the casts that could be 30-50K.

Gears will likely have minimums as well - another 30-40K, so 500k should get most stuff back into production, but then are you going to sell 100 sets? Who knows.

Its not cheap, but I can tell its not 100k.. 100% sure. I design and source casting all the time for my job. Anyway, I requoted the cases with the 3D scanning company. I guess no one reads my posts, but $3000 will get you the models complete to take to the casting company. Someone mentioned a model company, there is a big difference bw. a facet model with accuracy +/- 1mil or so to a high quality parametric model used for design and casting... huge difference.

For copyright ...look at the cylinders... You'd need to check IP, i.e. patents, which I can do. Secondly patents run out after 20 yrs unless they pay minimum per patent of 12k to reinstate the patent. If there was a patent on these cases it would have been applied prior to sale of the first 250r in 86, so probably ~1985, which means we are past the 20 yr period.

There is a process for "short run and prototype" castings which the tooling is much-much cheaper the parts are a little more in the long run... I'm quoting this now with APC Castings. We are in the range of 10-15k for tooling. Gears are easy, hundreds of companys make gears. I'm not worried about those at all, but I think its best to take one step at a time.

Last but not least, keep in mind its 2010, i.e. there is a process called Stereolithography, this process can take a 3D CAD model and 3D print a replica part made from a complex resin. This resin can then be hardened and used for a investment or sand cast mold. Its not hard we do it all the time thats how we test pre-production casting parts... we dont' have time to wait 3 months for a casting we need parts in weeks and that is how its done. The molds don't last long but for runs of 100+ they were fine.

[Ruf Racing]

You older guys have nothing to worry about. There will be enough parts, for your builds, in the immediate future. The young studs have something of a concern. And for the boys who knock the TRX450R, Go ride a modified one, see if it don't put a smile on your face. :D Peace! :muscle:

[250Renvy]

Originally posted by troybilt
Its not cheap, but I can tell its not 100k.. 100% sure.

The 100K+ I was referring to plastic injection molds.


Sounds like Troy is our guy. You probably work too much and with a baby on the way, won't have a lot of time, but we need to figure out how to get you on this full time before we are all to old to even ride/enjoy 2-strokes.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
You older guys have nothing to worry about. There will be enough parts, for your builds, in the immediate future. The young studs have something of a concern. And for the boys who knock the TRX450R, Go ride a modified one, see if it don't put a smile on your face. :D Peace! :muscle:

Who you calling OLD, I'm 31... :D :D

We got to look out for you young bucks! ...who are ill-advised!! LOL!!

BTW, my 450r was modded bigtime and it did put a BIG grin on my face, ...but when I got my Laeger it put a tear in my eye... its a piece of history and the stuff little boy's dreams were made of back in the early 90's... before internet forums!!... Mark Laeger is and always will be a legend. A 450r is just another bike that can be had cheap and will never hold their value.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
The 100K+ I was referring to plastic injection molds.


Sounds like Troy is our guy. You probably work too much and with a baby on the way, won't have a lot of time, but we need to figure out how to get you on this full time before we are all to old to even ride/enjoy 2-strokes.

I'm working on it to find out more information. At this point, its pure speculation based on past experience, they may come back and say its $2K tooling and 500 per part in which case sign me up. Also we need to work some connections, there might be better cheaper places out there. This casting company does castings for Harley Davidson, not that that matters, but they are a reputable company. Aluminum casting is a new thing to me, I deal almost exclusively with steel... obvious reasons... so I could be all wet on my initial gut feel.

The way I see you never know until you try.

I'd also like to get some contacts thru Honda to see what they are planning. You make the right contacts might be able to get something done sooner or least have a piece of mind... I don't think 20 guys ordering 20 cases is in the best interest of everyone. I don't know 20 guys/gals that could sink that kind of cash.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
You older guys have nothing to worry about. There will be enough parts, for your builds, in the immediate future. The young studs have something of a concern. And for the boys who knock the TRX450R, Go ride a modified one, see if it don't put a smile on your face. :D Peace! :muscle:

This old guy (42) sold his 450R last season to purchase my LRD framed 350PV and i could never go back....It out handles my 450R and since i've been building two-poke motors for over 15yrs i enjoy working on them far more than four stokes.

I'm getting concerned with the parts being harder and harder to find and used parts being the only replacement for a broken or worn out part.....I think this thread is one of the best i have come across on this forum since i've been on here.

I will find out some information on casting cost and procedure and gear making from my machinist...He's a one man company owner and operator and he was able to fund both casting and manufacturing of gears....I can't see it costing as much as i'm hearing but i'll report back with my findings from his experience.

[Jonny B]

Originally posted by sangheraent
i think this thread is just people over reacting. common guys really they discontinued stuff. there are tons of used parts out there and I just built my 250r from scratch and I was able to find 3 bottom ends in good shape for less then $300(blown cranks but still very usuable). and I wasnt looking very hard.

the laws of supply and demand are very simple when theres a demand you supply. if nobody was buying stuff from honda there going to stop making it. and if they stop even though there is a demand someone will step up and profit its the laws of the free market.

common you dont have to go on ebay and buy the first buy it now auction for an item. iv seen them youve seen them nobodys gonna pay 10x what an item is worth just because.

the 4th reason I think you guys are over reacting is this I live 50 feet from the us border in canada. I can drive 20 mins into the US and find several 250rs for less then 2k and a few for less then 1500. it cant really be that rare if its that damn cheap. im not rich but I know 1500 for a quad is not alot of money.

final point arnt oem cases like 1500 anyway? how is 3k(the price for banshee cases) for matoon cases alot of money when you guys are ready to pay honda 1500 for something 100x ****tyer then matoon.


Your statement is somewhat true with finding 250rs for cheap. Most have been run into the ground with racing for 20+ years. This thread is for people looking for NEW parts. We are all aware ebay has some parts, but when you are building a $20,000 race bike, used parts dont cut it. A $300 bottom end will only get you so far...

Over reaction YES: Many good companies still supply very good 250R parts, from new to remanufactured to complete rebuilds. In the past year, I have had 2 motors completly built for me with NEW or almost NEW parts, they run awesome, I believe better than they did for me back in the late 80's early 90's.

If you need NEW or like new engines, cases, cylinders, gears, or complete rebuilds try these guys:

Duncan Racing
BDT Motorsports
CT Racing
ESR

My 2 NEW engines were built by BDT Motorsports, they supplied most of the NEW or re-manufactured to NEW parts, some parts I had purchased from CT Racing, Duncan and ESR, both engines are show piece quality.

I believe we are over reacting; very good parts are available!

[Jonny B]

Some of you guys should go to Bike bandit.com and look at all the discontinued parts for these engines. If you think Duncan Racing and the others you mention supply/manufacture new mainshafts, counterbalancers, gears, spacers, shift forks, drums, etc. then you are misled. These companies can only do so much with new cylinders, pistons and reed cages but they do not manufacture or supply OEM parts. I am happy you have luck running used parts, but again, when you are building a $20,000 quad, used doesnt cut it.


These people are not overeacting, just maybe a little more edjucated with the oem availability then you, this is a huge problem if we can only find used parts on ebay...I have seen the amount of bikes coming apart on ebay reduced lately.

[All250R]

Periodically I get guys calling looking for parts that Honda says are discontinued. A while back I posted complaining about guys tearing down fully functional R's and shill bidding the prices up, all to make as much money from tearing R's down as possible...

I'm in so cal, and there are an abundance of used, rust free, even low hours R's that need maintenance and the owners are more inclined to sell than restore. Since the transmission became essentially discontinued and people not able to find basic parts like the crank collar, a gear or trans collar they need to make their machine even operate, I've relaxed my view on tearing down at least some R's periodically until some solution for new parts is achieved.

For example, I came across an original owner who has left his quad in the sun too long, painted the a-arms... the seat vinyl has stretched the staples from the seat, but it's on its original bore. I'm sure the trans gears are good, possibly the crank, the cases should be excellent still running the original bearings and certainly the cylinder would be very viable parts. The plastics are through, but a lot of other parts could be cleaned up and restored.

I've also noticed on ebay for example, a guy selling a crank almost always says, "it's in great shape - it spins freely!" It's annoying that someone might reward this guy with some profit for a bad crank, so as an engine builder I can spec the internals and give a bill of health on each part someone needs to be relatively confident they can run the part reliably, or at least have an idea how used it is. I'd only be motivated by profit if this were a 4stroke venture - then I'd be nailing them to the wall. ha. I'd be flexible in the price of items for people keeping their R alive. I'd do my best to put any frames in the hands of someone who is going to build it or at least use it as a backup for their current frame which may be toward the end of its usable life. Ideally I'd interview enough to know they weren't going to hack it basically.

Anyway, thought I'd throw it out there that I could probably provide some reliable parts solutions for people pretty easily if people thought it would help the situation. If you have an opinion, let me know what you think.

[tritty_wall]

I just want to put in my 2 cents, I'm a younger guy (25) and wanted a 250R since I was 12. I just got one 2 years ago, but I've been in your guys boat for 2 years now trying to get parts and even a good R. I live in canada and TRX 250R's are very hard to find and if you do find one in poor shape then your still looking at $3500 + and if it is race built ,I've seen them as high as $12000 +. When I got the the money to buy one I bought it from the US and probley over paid ($3800) and got it shipped to canada. I may have over paid in US terms but it would have been around $5500 I'm thinking in Canada. As for parts I go to honda dealers and there are young guys working parts and have no idea what quad I'm taking about and don't have any parts. If I get lucky I can get parts but have to wait 2-3 months to get them. For me to get parts fast ebay is pritty much the only option, or on these forums. I have to over pay for everything with high shiping cost on top of that. I have enough money into my 250R now that I could have bought any 450 new with cash. There will always be 250R die hards, like me and you guys that will pay for the parts. The 250R will live forever, I personlly think companys will start making aftermarket parts such as gears, cases etc. becuase they will sell and probley faster then they think. I will never sell my R no matter how high price go, its a piece of history. It is all worth it when people come and ask me what is it? and see it rip, then I tell them it a 1988 all they can say is ...wow...

I'm not trying to take over anyones thread, I'm glad to see that you guys are thinking about the furture for parts and trying to get the wheels turning so that hopefully more aftermarkets parts will come available in years to come. Thanks

[troybilt]

The way I see ALL250r is this... I think its better to part those bikes then let them sit baking in the sun... ...Keeps us diehards rolling. Yeah, the disolution of the R population is something to think about, but they really aren't going anywhere they are being transformed from a complete bike state to piles of parts.

If I had the money I'd buy as many 250r's as I could keep some spare parts for myself. Start a remanufacturing business that funded my research and development on new parts, eventually get to where one could supply "crate" motors....

I agree with those that there is no cause for "Alarm" just yet but its better to be prepared then scramble at the last second... As many sharp guys/gals that are on this site I think we can figure something out, makes me feel better knowing this.

Hell tomorrow, Honda could get off their @$$ and start reproducing parts... I'm not going to hold my breath though.

You know its no different that those companies that sell new parts for old muscle car restorations etc.. they make a good living doing that. body panels, you name it...

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by troybilt
I agree with those that there is no cause for "Alarm" just yet but its better to be prepared then scramble at the last second... As many sharp guys/gals that are on this site I think we can figure something out, makes me feel better knowing this.

I completely agree, couldnt have said it better myself.

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by troybilt
Who you calling OLD, I'm 31... :D :D

We got to look out for you young bucks! ...who are ill-advised!! LOL!!

BTW, my 450r was modded bigtime and it did put a BIG grin on my face, ...but when I got my Laeger it put a tear in my eye... its a piece of history and the stuff little boy's dreams were made of back in the early 90's... before internet forums!!... Mark Laeger is and always will be a legend. A 450r is just another bike that can be had cheap and will never hold their value.

I'm 47 and have both bikes. I understand your attachment to the 250R. It's guys like you Troy, that may just keep the 250R alive!
I'm not the sentimental guy, about the history. Good luck and long live the RRRRRR's. :D

JonnyB

Agreed used does not cut it when it comes to a race machine, however; both my engines BDT Motorsports built for me have new cranks, new crank bearings, new bearings and seals through out, new sleeved cylinders on 66MM bores (one with an aluminum sleeve and one with a steel LA Sleeve), new trans with Yukon gears, new rod, new needle bearings, new clutches, new waterpump assembly, hard chromed and re-ground shift forks, flash cromed main shafts, new stator, re-cut & balaced fly wheel, even a rebuilt balancer with a new bearing, new Wossner Piston Kit. everything was replaced new or left if it looked as new...it was my decision after inspecting the parts.

I will put both my engines up to anyone elses as NEW...these shops like Duncan, CT, BDT-M, ESR have plenty of parts, when they don't, if sales demands it, OEM or OEM equivalent parts will be made by someone, and sometimes even better or improved up to date components will surface...

No worries!

[troybilt]

Got an update on tooling costs:

~$8500 for the pattern, (just one side)... bout what I thought it would be... more or less... Also 3000 for scanning costs, there will be some engineering time added to that too, but for sake of argument we'll leave it off... at the end of the day $20k will get you off and going on making your own side cases.

First Op parts (i.e. the casted side cases) would be ~$250 from there on out, also give or take a few... now this doesn't include machining, which by my estimation would be almost that or even more, ~$200 probably would be a good start. They are very machining intensive parts.

So $450 for good parts, without tacking on some to make it worth while ~38%, plus amortization of the original investment cost.

Just wanted to let you all know what I found out so I wasn't pulling your chain...

[troybilt]

Originally posted by acecarlos
JonnyB

Agreed used does not cut it when it comes to a race machine, however; both my engines BDT Motorsports built for me have new cranks, new crank bearings, new bearings and seals through out, new sleeved cylinders on 66MM bores (one with an aluminum sleeve and one with a steel LA Sleeve), new trans with Yukon gears, new rod, new needle bearings, new clutches, new waterpump assembly, hard chromed and re-ground shift forks, flash cromed main shafts, new stator, re-cut & balaced fly wheel, even a rebuilt balancer with a new bearing, new Wossner Piston Kit. everything was replaced new or left if it looked as new...it was my decision after inspecting the parts.

I will put both my engines up to anyone elses as NEW...these shops like Duncan, CT, BDT-M, ESR have plenty of parts, when they don't, if sales demands it, OEM or OEM equivalent parts will be made by someone, and sometimes even better or improved up to date components will surface...

No worries!

I hope so.

[Jonny B]

Originally posted by acecarlos
JonnyB

Agreed used does not cut it when it comes to a race machine, however; both my engines BDT Motorsports built for me have new cranks, new crank bearings, new bearings and seals through out, new sleeved cylinders on 66MM bores (one with an aluminum sleeve and one with a steel LA Sleeve), new trans with Yukon gears, new rod, new needle bearings, new clutches, new waterpump assembly, hard chromed and re-ground shift forks, flash cromed main shafts, new stator, re-cut & balaced fly wheel, even a rebuilt balancer with a new bearing, new Wossner Piston Kit. everything was replaced new or left if it looked as new...it was my decision after inspecting the parts.

I will put both my engines up to anyone elses as NEW...these shops like Duncan, CT, BDT-M, ESR have plenty of parts, when they don't, if sales demands it, OEM or OEM equivalent parts will be made by someone, and sometimes even better or improved up to date components will surface...

No worries!

My reply was not because I think new engines are better then rebuilt engines...I am fully aware of engine rebuilding and service specs.. I was replying to your first post about "how people are overeacting" about discontinued oem parts here. The last statement in your second post is a sign that maybe you agree???

I think this thread is showing some of the demand and I am glad the right people are taking this seriously.

[250Renvy]

Since we have this discussion going and we have some idea of costs how do we go about getting stuff done? Otherwise it's all a moot point.

Since I doubt anybody has a couple hundred K lying around, we either all have to chip in to a fund to start-up a company or WAIT for someone else to do it like ESR and HOPE that it's the right price. Waiting and hoping doesn't produce results though.

I have a really good idea how to bring it about, but I'm not sure anybody would be on board or how to get people to invest.

I think to startup we would need 100K.

So for easy calculations, we need 100 people to put up $1000 or 1000 people to put up $100.

By Troy's calculations we would need to sell 100 sets of cases at $700 to recoup the money or 200 sets @ $550.

This would take some time to recoup. It would almost be cheaper to build a complete quad and sell thousands of them than to just run parts, but in this economy that might be hard and would cost millions.
However, I know that if we started with a small step of the 100K we could build it up.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by troybilt
Got an update on tooling costs:

~$8500 for the pattern, (just one side)... bout what I thought it would be... more or less... Also 3000 for scanning costs, there will be some engineering time added to that too, but for sake of argument we'll leave it off... at the end of the day $20k will get you off and going on making your own side cases.

First Op parts (i.e. the casted side cases) would be ~$250 from there on out, also give or take a few... now this doesn't include machining, which by my estimation would be almost that or even more, ~$200 probably would be a good start. They are very machining intensive parts.

So $450 for good parts, without tacking on some to make it worth while ~38%, plus amortization of the original investment cost.

Just wanted to let you all know what I found out so I wasn't pulling your chain...

Did you only check on "casting" cost? Or did you do any homework on the Billet style cases?
I spoke with my machinist today and as for the gears, it was costing him a click over $200 to make both the drive gear and clutch basket gear for a Banshee....He said it would not be difficult nor expensive to have most any gear made for the tranny.
His did say that billet cases would not be difficult to make once the scan work was completed and the software was developed for the CNC. He thinks Mattoon has around a 100% mark up on the Banshee cases at $2000.

I would pay $1200 for a set of Billet cases tomorrow if available!

[troybilt]

I only checked on casting cost..and with only one company. I tried to get ahold of mattoon and no go on the 250r cases... so far anyway... I'm more than willing to do the engineering work as well as manufacturing liason, whether it be billet or castings... there is a number of machinists that I can get ahold of that can machine billet cases, may take a few tries to get it right but its possible... Now is the time, once the Economy takes off again you'll play hell getting a machinist to work on project stuff like this... trust me...

However, I don't have the $3000 to get the cases scanned into ProE CAD models.... let alone try and work on a build. There is alot of things we can do once a guy has the models... problem is $3000 models to someone without ProE don't mean much... as far as investment goes. Once we have a good parametric model then the fun begins, we could improve some of the weak points of the OEM cases, etc... eventually modify them to accept CR or even CRF parts like gears etc... if there was a need. Its that first hurdle... The G code for the CNC machine is easy with the right software once you have the model. Then slap in a billet chunk and poof out comes a case...

I might be able to scrounge up some cash or sell some extra parts to help get this going.

As far as gears go, yeah, I'm not too worried about those, at least not for now. There's several "gear" manufacturers out there that you tell them the width, ID, pitch diameter, convolute tooth dimensions, etc.. and they can whip out some gears...

How about asking a few of the top name manufactures if they would be interested in making parts that are no longer available, such as cases? A quick stop by BDT Motorsports this evening on my way home, the owner showed me 13 sets of newly powdercoted 250R cases with new bearings and seals, he said if he can no longer get cases to fill his customers demand, he would make them if the market would justify it in sales volume. BDT Motorsports has a full Tool shop plus plating and powdercoat facilities for their use. Motorcycle & ATV parts is a side bussines for them, making tooling and aircraft parts, plating and powdercoat are what they do to make $$$'s. Has to be a few others...

Asking other manufactures might yield similar possibilities, again; if the demand exist, manufactures will step up, only makes sense.

I feel we need not worry, as parts become unavailable, and if demand is present, we will have parts.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by acecarlos
I feel we need not worry, as parts become unavailable, and if demand is present, we will have parts.

I don't think worry is why this tread was created....Worry might have been used within the conversation but i see this thread as pre-planning or at the least thinking and bouncing ideas off one another. If it wasn't for this thread i woudn't have thought about talking to my machinist about gears and billet cases. I already have dreams of billet cases which would make my bike that much more custom.

Good point, however; not everyone will pay $2000 for billet cases, what we need is an unlimited supply of $700 cast cases as well as a continuation of reasonably priced replacement components such as gears, piston kits, shift forks, shafts, ect…

[CODY_M11]

ESR has case on there web site. Do they not sell cases? i would like to have a company i could buy cases off of cause i had to weld up my left case. i would also be willing to chip in some money for troys and everyone else plans and ideas. i cant throw out much but hey a couple hundred should be better than nothing?

might make some people mad for me asking this but has anyone tried to put a cr motor in a 250r frame? i have thought of this but wondered if anyone has tried.

just thought of the cr motor because of the availability of parts.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
ESR has case on there web site. Do they not sell cases? i would like to have a company i could buy cases off of cause i had to weld up my left case. i would also be willing to chip in some money for troys and everyone else plans and ideas. i cant throw out much but hey a couple hundred should be better than nothing?

might make some people mad for me asking this but has anyone tried to put a cr motor in a 250r frame? i have thought of this but wondered if anyone has tried.

just thought of the cr motor because of the availability of parts.

Cody, I've thought of a CR motor quite a bit, we all know the vibration issues without a Counter balancer. I feel with a little time and some experimentation we could design a chassis that accepted the CR motor and reduced if not eliminated all of the vibration. Problem we've seen is guys even reputable companies have done this too, installed a CR motor whether it be 250 or 500 cc into a trx250r engineered chassis, in which this chassis is designed for a trx250r motor or 400EX motor, WITH a counter balancer, I know these guys are sharp that's not my point... I don't think I'm "smarter" than they are, I just think there is some techniques that exists today that they may or may not have tried, and we need to keep our options open.

I guess what I'm trying to say is the geometry of the chassis could (I give 60% chance of working) be designed to eliminate the vibration. I mentioned this in another thread, but the harmonic vibration analysis which is called Modal analysis can be used to "channel" the vibrations through out the frame so as not be felt by the occupant. I've done this on AG equipment, you may not realize this but a combine with choppers, rotors, motor, plus running down a bumpy field all cause extreme vibration. We use Modal analysis to reduce those vibrations or increase them depending on the case, to avoid bolts coming loose and rattling your teeth... I seriously doubt this type of analysis has been tried on a trx250r frame. Back in the 80's the computing power didn't really exist to do this stuff. Best explanation of this is the old Infinite car commerials where they had a wine glass on the hood of the car when they rev'd up the motor the wine glass barely moved.

I sort of see the CR as an option of last resort. I still like the ol'trx 250r motor the best.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by acecarlos
How about asking a few of the top name manufactures if they would be interested in making parts that are no longer available, such as cases? A quick stop by BDT Motorsports this evening on my way home, the owner showed me 13 sets of newly powdercoted 250R cases with new bearings and seals, he said if he can no longer get cases to fill his customers demand, he would make them if the market would justify it in sales volume. BDT Motorsports has a full Tool shop plus plating and powdercoat facilities for their use. Motorcycle & ATV parts is a side bussines for them, making tooling and aircraft parts, plating and powdercoat are what they do to make $$$'s. Has to be a few others...

Asking other manufactures might yield similar possibilities, again; if the demand exist, manufactures will step up, only makes sense.

I feel we need not worry, as parts become unavailable, and if demand is present, we will have parts.

Ace you're exactly right and guys like BDT, ESR, etc.. probably have the financial backing to make it happen. But until they do we need to have a contingency plan or these parts that they DO have on the shelves are going to sell for $2000 plus, right along with the billet cases, supply and demand...

If this thread does nothing else, at least it gets people asking the questions, just as you have done. I really believe that its not what you know but who you know that gets you ahead in life, same goes for 250r stuff. I'm out here in the middle of KS and I can't walk down the street and holla at my boys at ESR, CT, BDT, etc... so they more of you that can I would suggest it.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Since we have this discussion going and we have some idea of costs how do we go about getting stuff done? Otherwise it's all a moot point.

Since I doubt anybody has a couple hundred K lying around, we either all have to chip in to a fund to start-up a company or WAIT for someone else to do it like ESR and HOPE that it's the right price. Waiting and hoping doesn't produce results though.

I have a really good idea how to bring it about, but I'm not sure anybody would be on board or how to get people to invest.

I think to startup we would need 100K.

So for easy calculations, we need 100 people to put up $1000 or 1000 people to put up $100.

By Troy's calculations we would need to sell 100 sets of cases at $700 to recoup the money or 200 sets @ $550.

This would take some time to recoup. It would almost be cheaper to build a complete quad and sell thousands of them than to just run parts, but in this economy that might be hard and would cost millions.
However, I know that if we started with a small step of the 100K we could build it up.

I'm with you Kevin, I think we need to take our first step smaller, but make that first step now. First we should organize some people to make some calls and to ask around the ESR's of the world etc... and see what there plans are if any. None of that cost much money... Maybe they are making the arrangements now and we just don't know about it. Then from that we could get a "comfort" feel if there is going to parts for us in the future or not. If not, then we need to think about investing and taking control of our own destiny sort of speak on the 250r parts. As many engineers, machinist, general 250r experts on this site I think between all of us we could figure this out.

[dlunn]

Troy,

Is there any merit's to the guy from Australia that fabricated a counter balancer to work on his CR500? Would this be an area to look into? A person could go out and buy a CR250 engine and with the use of a pre-engineered kit you could add the counter balancer themselves. In seeing his work on the Aussie ATV forum and his Youtube video's he seems to be on the right track. We would have access to powervalved motors with plenty of parts still available. I don't know if its possible but just another idea.

Off topic a bit but who do you work for? You mentioned in one of the posts about doing vibration analysis on ag equipment. I remember from your build last winter seeing some New Holland tractors in the backgroud. Just curious, I work in the ag industry myself but on the seed side.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by dlunn
Troy,

Is there any merit's to the guy from Australia that fabricated a counter balancer to work on his CR500? Would this be an area to look into? A person could go out and buy a CR250 engine and with the use of a pre-engineered kit you could add the counter balancer themselves. In seeing his work on the Aussie ATV forum and his Youtube video's he seems to be on the right track. We would have access to powervalved motors with plenty of parts still available. I don't know if its possible but just another idea.

Off topic a bit but who do you work for? You mentioned in one of the posts about doing vibration analysis on ag equipment. I remember from your build last winter seeing some New Holland tractors in the backgroud. Just curious, I work in the ag industry myself but on the seed side.

Yes I think there is some merit to it for sure and I think its awesome he's out trying to figure this out. I read all his threads and posts... I worked for New Holland back in PA circa 2005-6, I also worked for Caterpillar before that and now I'm back with Caterpillar. I caution a little what he's doing on those cases just because there is more than statically balancing the piston sort of speak... Without delving into too much detail, and I'm not saying he won't get it right with playing with some different masses, cause that's what he should do if you can't do the analysis. Also, I should preface I know just enough about this vibration analysis to be dangerous, I've done it I think I understand it but there is engineers with Phd's in harmonic tuning and still can't figure stuff out, its that complicated. I designed high speed choppers for combines and also the high speed rotors in rotary combines, no its not an engine, but some of the principles are the same. I also designed structures like chutes and body panels where vibration from the vehicle traveling on bumpy road for instance, would significatly impact the life of those structures.

If it was that easy to just add weight in the opposite direction why not bolt a harmonic balancer like on a V8 to the flywheel? ...same principle as what he's trying to do. hell that may even work... I wouldn't know for sure without doing alot of calculations or trial and error.

I really like the idea of the balanced CR motors, just like you said all kinds of parts and possibilities. However, once that bridge is crossed going back to the trx250r motor would be hard.

[hondamancbr03]

[i] I really like the idea of the balanced CR motors, just like you said all kinds of parts and possibilities. However, once that bridge is crossed going back to the trx250r motor would be hard. [/B]

If CR motors were able to be balanced I would be all over it! No more hunting for used (good) 250R parts!

We are starting to go off into different tangents. Many possibilities to explore, however; we should first focus on securing replacement parts for the "stock" Honda components as they become discontinued, like OEM cases made by ESR, BDT, or anyone else...

The CR500 idea is great, however; it should be a completely separate path than trying to have replacement OEM 250R parts made available.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by acecarlos
We are starting to go off into different tangents. Many possibilities to explore, however; we should first focus on securing replacement parts for the "stock" Honda components as they become discontinued, like OEM cases made by ESR, BDT, or anyone else...

The CR500 idea is great, however; it should be a completely separate path than trying to have replacement OEM 250R parts made available.

Should it be seperate or an option to spending $$$ trying to tool for engines that Honda is slowly removing parts for? I think it should be thrown on the board as an option to find cost savings to keep the R going even if it means to replace the engine with a newer Honda motor with available parts. I have my R and enjoy it for the ride and not the engine as much...There is nothing about my engine that says TRX beside the cases and a very small amount of the tranny.

[mxduner]

just to add to the cr idea. if it becomes a route, we should try to use the years that the prox cylinders fit. Hope i did'nt get off the op thread purpose... i did:devil:

[All250R]

Originally posted by troybilt
The way I see ALL250r is this... I think its better to part those bikes then let them sit baking in the sun... ...Keeps us diehards rolling. Yeah, the disolution of the R population is something to think about, but they really aren't going anywhere they are being transformed from a complete bike state to piles of parts.

I picked the bike up Thursday. PM me for a link to pictures, video of the bike (88) and parts listing. I'll be pulling it down and prepping the parts.

[slamdak8782]

ESR has OEM new 250r case halves for 650.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by slamdak8782
ESR has OEM new 250r case halves for 650.

Are they new or a stock of cases they have on the shelf that when they're gone they're GONE? Is someone at ESR sleeping with someone at Honda corp?:)

I would be interested in getting the back story on those cases........Still dreaming of full billet cases!

[troybilt]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Are they new or a stock of cases they have on the shelf that when they're gone they're GONE? Is someone at ESR sleeping with someone at Honda corp?:)

I would be interested in getting the back story on those cases........Still dreaming of full billet cases!

Need to call them, I heard they still show them on the website but they ran out of them 6 months to a year ago, at least on the left side. Maybe they got more in, but I don't see how.

[afterchucker]

I would part with some new 250r cases for $650.00 (each factory matched pair) including shipping. They have the seals and bearings already installed. We actually have every new engine/transmission part required to assemble a new 250r motor. Everything from the standard issue Champion RN2C spark plug all the down to the OEM drain plug. If you would rather not have to jack with the assembly process we can provide complete NEW Honda factory assembled motors for 2000 bux each. Supplies are limited to what we have on hand. If anyone here is seriously concerned over the future availability of NOS iron you are gonna need to do more than just talk about it. Its only a matter of time before we are just another place you "used to" be able to buy new parts from.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by afterchucker
If anyone here is seriously concerned over the future availability of NOS iron you are gonna need to do more than just talk about it. Its only a matter of time before we are just another place you "used to" be able to buy new parts from.

I agree, but once the thought of money is mentioned, this thread died completely... LOL!!

I see 2 problems with the 250r cases and 250r parts in general...

1.) main reason people switch back from 450r to 250r is rebuild cost, so what makes anyone think that these same people will spend any money on new 250r parts that can cost just as much or more than 450r parts?? A 450r case side can be had for ~200 bucks brand new. I know I checked into buying one. projected cost of a 250r case ~700 bucks... that ~500 goes an awfully long ways into a bottom end rebuild on a 450r.

2.) There is about ~10-15 people I know that would spend good money to have good parts, that's it. Hard to make anything work with those quantities. We've all sold 250r parts on here and ebay, everyone wants crap for free... why would billet or cast cases be any different?

I'm 100% confident that I can design and build/rebuild any part for a 250r. As far as going out and mortgaging a home to make this work... well I'm not going to risk it, until I know Honda is not going to come out with parts a year or 2 years from now...

I'll keep mine going, I may be the last Mohican on the face of this earth with a running 250r, but I can garuntee it will still be running when I'm dead. I live and breathe 2 strokes, I want to know as much as possible about these motors. I'm fascinated by the simplicity, and a good running 2 stroke is truely work of art.

Lastly, there has been alot of talk about CR250r/500r in trx frame. Why would someone redesign the cases to add a counterbalancer when the frame can be designed to eliminate the vibration? Need to think outside the box, or in this case the motor side cases... Doesn't make any sense to me... a counter balancer only takes away power, due to extra rotating mass... just seems asinine. I think a 2 stroke motor without a CB is the way to go, in the long run. I've got the ideas for the frame and I'm 90% sure it will work. When I finish my Laeger build I'm might research and dive into this alittle more.

That is all for now. I certainly enjoyed the conversation.

[8686]

What?!!!!! Everyone scattered like cockroaches when you turn the lights on when you started actually talking about people coming up with some money? Boy, I never saw that coming! :rolleyes:

(third post on page 3) :p

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by troybilt
I think a 2 stroke motor without a CB is the way to go, in the long run. I've got the ideas for the frame and I'm 90% sure it will work.
[/B]

Many a good man, has tried. Good luck.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
Many a good man, has tried. Good luck.

thank you... :rolleyes:

[hondamancbr03]

I myself have not scattered by the thought of spending money on my bike, I sold my 450r (which my friends thought was a mistake) to replace it with what I feel is the best bike I have ever sat on. Before spending large chucks of money I see nothing wrong with stepping back and re-thinking everything from every angle to make sure it’s the correct decision.

Troy,
I haven't stopped or given up....Last night talking with my machinist about his casting cost for his Banshee mono cylinders, he said it was $30,000 after all said and done. He has made his money back since the investment and has no regrets. In fact his top end has won first place at Dunefest on the Oregon coast several years....He said that if the software was spent on the scanning of the bottom cases the cost to make them in the CNC would be minimal, although he doesn't feel it would be a money maker in the long run but making money was and is still not my intention.

Speaking of the CB......I was thinking about anti-vibe motor mounts on the frame/motor instead of a CB. Take a look at a Banshee engine case, they have dense rubber inside of the engine mold where the bolts run through. I know a twin does not have the vibration issue a singe does but if Harley can install a motor that shakes 1" in both direction while the bikes stands still, then why can't we install a CR250R PV motor in our frame?

[troybilt]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
I myself have not scattered by the thought of spending money on my bike, I sold my 450r (which my friends thought was a mistake) to replace it with what I feel is the best bike I have ever sat on. Before spending large chucks of money I see nothing wrong with stepping back and re-thinking everything from every angle to make sure it’s the correct decision.

Troy,
I haven't stopped or given up....Last night talking with my machinist about his casting cost for his Banshee mono cylinders, he said it was $30,000 after all said and done. He has made his money back since the investment and has no regrets. In fact his top end has won first place at Dunefest on the Oregon coast several years....He said that if the software was spent on the scanning of the bottom cases the cost to make them in the CNC would be minimal, although he doesn't feel it would be a money maker in the long run but making money was and is still not my intention.

Speaking of the CB......I was thinking about anti-vibe motor mounts on the frame/motor instead of a CB. Take a look at a Banshee engine case, they have dense rubber inside of the engine mold where the bolts run through. I know a twin does not have the vibration issue a singe does but if Harley can install a motor that shakes 1" in both direction while the bikes stands still, then why can't we install a CR250R PV motor in our frame?

Thanks for checking with your machinist. That's good information 30k sounds right on the money with what I suspected and found out for castings. I'm more than willing to work with some guys that are interested in getting these castings scanned in. I don't have 3k to get it done myself..

I agree with the non-CB motors. My thoughts were a little different than whats been done or ever attempted before. I've tried to explain modes, but I think it rings on deaf ears... What people need to realize is everything vibrates, its just whether it is harmonic or resonant.

[rsss396]

I will be curious to see your 500 and its mounting I tried a few ways and solid mounting has been the best over all style for me.
rubber mounting was very hard on the pipe with real no benefit in cancelling out vibration.
But I only tried a couple ways and hope yours works because the cr500 is a good running motor and is pretty bullet proof.

[rablack21]

If it all came down to getting them scanned, I have access to a 3d scanner in my engineering department. We sometimes scan our molds and make them into Pro/E models. I have been slow to speak because I don't have any spare cases sitting around. Plus, you never really know when people are serious or just talking.

[250Renvy]

If somebody wanted to put a package together of terms and machines used etc. I can take that to the local university's engineering department and see if there is any interest as a project.

Unfortunately I'm not an engineer so I wouldn't know what I'm talking about, but if someone put together some info I could present I'm sure it could get done.

The university has a deal with Ford so they are pretty up to date with stuff and have local casting facilities and machining nearby

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by rablack21
If it all came down to getting them scanned, I have access to a 3d scanner in my engineering department. We sometimes scan our molds and make them into Pro/E models. I have been slow to speak because I don't have any spare cases sitting around. Plus, you never really know when people are serious or just talking.

I will ask tomorrow what he needs to make this happen......I'm willing to buy a set of cases from ESR if this works out. I've known this machinist about 20yrs and i'm sure he would give me a break on the first run if this is truly possible.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by troybilt
I agree with the non-CB motors. My thoughts were a little different than whats been done or ever attempted before. I've tried to explain modes, but I think it rings on deaf ears... What people need to realize is everything vibrates, its just whether it is harmonic or resonant.

Can you give me an idea of your design or thoughts? Maybe a new thread?......I'm tossing around building another 250R this winter and reallly like the idea of a late model CR250R.

Thanks

[troybilt]

Originally posted by rablack21
If it all came down to getting them scanned, I have access to a 3d scanner in my engineering department. We sometimes scan our molds and make them into Pro/E models. I have been slow to speak because I don't have any spare cases sitting around. Plus, you never really know when people are serious or just talking.

I can get you cases. If you're willing to help. I'll either go buy a set or tear apart one of my motors, or even borrow a set from somebody else. Going from 3D scans is a tedious process. I need nurb models not facet models to make this work and there is a major difference... might check on that too..

hondamancbr03, if I can get ProE models I can do what it takes to help you're machinist out with the design.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
Can you give me an idea of your design or thoughts? Maybe a new thread?......I'm tossing around building another 250R this winter and reallly like the idea of a late model CR250R.

Thanks

Brief synopsis of how I would attack the problem correctly, I'm analytical and less trial and error type person:

1.) I'd measure the vibrations from a CR motor, with accelerometers... I do quite a bit of OMLA at my job, (On-Machine-Load-Analysis)... with SoMat eDaq data acquisition equipment. I think it is important to know what the "vibration" is, its amplitude, phase, and frequency. So I'd first get a baseline.

2.) Second I'd model in the trx frame into ProE and run a modal FEA analysis to see where the resonant frequency modes are in the structure... See what the frame can handle as is.

3.) Third I'd tweak the frame design in ProE to either reduce stiffness or increase it depending on the analysis and re-run the modal analysis, repeat for optimization and do feasibility study.

Ask the question, Why does a CR motor work in a dirt bike chassis and not quad?

Couple of things here, the dirt bike chassis was designed in such a way that the vibrations are channeled around the frame and are allowed to dissipate, having 2 wheels has nothing to do with it. There have been many that tried to install a CR motor into a street bike frame too with the same problem as the quads. The quad frame doesn't allow the vibrations to die off, they bounce back and forth around the frame adding on top of each other... there is no "channel" for the vibrations to die off. Good way to think of this is a pond with "rock cliff face" around the entire perimeter, when you throw a rock into this pond the waves bounce back and forth from one cliff face to the other compounding each other called a resonance. This would be in contrast to a dirt bike frame, or pond with gradual shores for the vibration to slowly dissipate onto shore.

Other options are I would look into an Engine Torque Damper, google that and you'll see what I mean.

I know of 2 sources working on releasing OEM Honda cases or I should say copies of Honda TRX250R cases March-June of next year. One is ESR and the other is BDT Motorsports. From what I have been told, they will sell in the same configuration as the Honda cases (with Bearings and seals). Most of the modeling seems to have already been done by these two sources, we may have more than one source for cases in 10-12 months...cost will be comparable to Honda pricing for a set...at least that is the word.

[250Renvy]

You guys have focused a lot on cases and yes they are discontinued and if you bust one, it can be toast, however they can be welded. I think I'm set for cases, but I think a set could last me 20 years.
If it's true, maybe ESR and BDT have it taken care of.

I don't think it's the most important part to get replaced.

Since, pistons, cranks and cylinders and bearings are all still in production by aftermarket companies, the only thing I think is necessary right now are gears/tranny parts. They wear, they are a weak point for big bores and nobody makes any replacements.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
You guys have focused a lot on cases and yes they are discontinued and if you bust one, it can be toast, however they can be welded. I think I'm set for cases, but I think a set could last me 20 years.
If it's true, maybe ESR and BDT have it taken care of.

I don't think it's the most important part to get replaced.

Since, pistons, cranks and cylinders and bearings are all still in production by aftermarket companies, the only thing I think is necessary right now are gears/tranny parts. They wear, they are a weak point for big bores and nobody makes any replacements.

It's not only out of need for the billet cases for myself.....It's more out of the custom aspect, everything else on my bike is non-Honda parts. Cases, shift forks, shafts and small misc is all that's left. With custom billet cases you can expand in many different directions regarding top end types without having to cut/weld and modify.
The thought of changing the tranny to except 450R tranny is very inviting....Thst's just my opinion and desire, I don't really feel it's going in the wrong direction.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by troybilt
Brief synopsis of how I would attack the problem correctly, I'm analytical and less trial and error type person:

1.) I'd measure the vibrations from a CR motor, with accelerometers... I do quite a bit of OMLA at my job, (On-Machine-Load-Analysis)... with SoMat eDaq data acquisition equipment. I think it is important to know what the "vibration" is, its amplitude, phase, and frequency. So I'd first get a baseline.

2.) Second I'd model in the trx frame into ProE and run a modal FEA analysis to see where the resonant frequency modes are in the structure... See what the frame can handle as is.

3.) Third I'd tweak the frame design in ProE to either reduce stiffness or increase it depending on the analysis and re-run the modal analysis, repeat for optimization and do feasibility study.

Ask the question, Why does a CR motor work in a dirt bike chassis and not quad?

Couple of things here, the dirt bike chassis was designed in such a way that the vibrations are channeled around the frame and are allowed to dissipate, having 2 wheels has nothing to do with it. There have been many that tried to install a CR motor into a street bike frame too with the same problem as the quads. The quad frame doesn't allow the vibrations to die off, they bounce back and forth around the frame adding on top of each other... there is no "channel" for the vibrations to die off. Good way to think of this is a pond with "rock cliff face" around the entire perimeter, when you throw a rock into this pond the waves bounce back and forth from one cliff face to the other compounding each other called a resonance. This would be in contrast to a dirt bike frame, or pond with gradual shores for the vibration to slowly dissipate onto shore.

Other options are I would look into an Engine Torque Damper, google that and you'll see what I mean.

That is not anything like what most people think is the issue....I myself have been told by several that it has to do wiht the two wheel factor. Good write up....Thanks for the info.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
That is not anything like what most people think is the issue....I myself have been told by several that it has to do wiht the two wheel factor. Good write up....Thanks for the info.

Read this 3rd paragraph at the bottom.. vibration was a major issue and this was a clean build. So you don't think I'm full of it.... 2 wheels has nothing to do with it.

http://www.dreamgate.ne.jp/NSR/Project%20NSR/NSR500/500_part3maim.html

acecarlos, care to share how you know both sources are working on trx cases? This is great is so.

I just asked…
I have a friend who lives in Pismo, visits ESR regularly, has asked over the past 6 months if new cases are in the works, was told it was a very good possibility, they would be copies of Honda OEM cases, and that Mid 2011 was the goal.
I live 5 minutes from BDT Motorsports, talked to the owner on several occasions about center cases; they currently have 11 sets of Honda refurbished cases in stock (they had 13 last week), the owner told me he has already done the “modeling” work based off the Honda OEM cases in ProE, and will commence the casting process in early February 2011, expects to have fully machined & assembled matched center cases by July 2011.
I have no information on pricing from ESR, BDT Motorsports stated they would sell as matched sets, with bearings and seals (same as Honda) for $775-$800 per set…comparable to Honda retail pricing.
That’s all I know…

[rablack21]

That's good news! Now we need to see if anyone is going to make gears, and we will be all set.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by acecarlos
I just asked…
I have a friend who lives in Pismo, visits ESR regularly, has asked over the past 6 months if new cases are in the works, was told it was a very good possibility, they would be copies of Honda OEM cases, and that Mid 2011 was the goal.
I live 5 minutes from BDT Motorsports, talked to the owner on several occasions about center cases; they currently have 11 sets of Honda refurbished cases in stock (they had 13 last week), the owner told me he has already done the “modeling” work based off the Honda OEM cases in ProE, and will commence the casting process in early February 2011, expects to have fully machined & assembled matched center cases by July 2011.
I have no information on pricing from ESR, BDT Motorsports stated they would sell as matched sets, with bearings and seals (same as Honda) for $775-$800 per set…comparable to Honda retail pricing.
That’s all I know…

That's all very good news to me. Those are the guys I hope step up when the parts dry up... Thanks for sharing.

[mxduner]

If this helps, i have my cases split right now, and might now rebuild for a couple weeks yet.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
the only thing I think is necessary right now are gears/tranny parts. They wear, they are a weak point for big bores and nobody makes any replacements.

I agree. Cases I am not to worried about, of course, I just bought brand new cases two years ago. Transmission parts would be the most important thing to me. One thing I learned with my 450R's, all those washers and spacers are important to replace. Slight wear on them will lead to big problems.

I wish I could buy all the washers and spacers for my 250R, but quite a few are discontinued. Sure I could use used stuff, but replacing a 24 year old part with another 24 year old part isn't going to help anything. Hopefully someone will get on the transmission stuff. I know if I could find someone who had all the 88/89 transmission parts new in bags and was asking a reasonable price for them, I would probably buy them in a heart beat.

Doug

[afterchucker]

I wish I could buy all the washers and spacers for my 250R, but quite a few are discontinued. Sure I could use used stuff, but replacing a 24 year old part with another 24 year old part isn't going to help anything. Hopefully someone will get on the transmission stuff. I know if I could find someone who had all the 88/89 transmission parts new in bags and was asking a reasonable price for them, I would probably buy them in a heart beat.

:ermm: Would'nt that be something if someone out there DID have for sale ALL the NEW parts required to assemble a new motor/transmission? WOW! I'd just maybe soil myself......I wonder... What would be a resonable price for discontinued new parts. What do you think? Id venture to say 40% over service Honda list would be fair enough. Heck 40% over servhon is in the neighborhood of what the local Honda dealers are asking for non disco'ed parts. Id bet if someone had em they would want way more than that. Be sure to let us all know if you ever find a source willing to part with disco parts.

[troybilt]

Got an update:

Talked to a company willing to experiment with making 250r billet cases if anyone is interested.

They'd do it if enough would order them to make it worth their while or if someone wanted to pay for their time to program it. I'll be looking into it a little more.

that is all.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by troybilt
Got an update:

Talked to a company willing to experiment with making 250r billet cases if anyone is interested.

They'd do it if enough would order them to make it worth their while or if someone wanted to pay for their time to program it. I'll be looking into it a little more.

that is all.

I found a local company already in the process of making 250R billet cases....I would still like to compare prices being the local company in my area is known for high prices.

The machinist i go to quoted me 3k to 4k for a finished set, that includes the programing and material. Any set after that would be more than half the first run price.

[troybilt]

I've been in contact with mattoon machine...