Dream Race

[mushinracing]

If you could have a dream series how would it be ?
please go into detail please

[jerkyboy]

Sounds like your shopping for ideas and opinions?

[hwf-racing]

It would be nice if the dream series could bring a race to Florida!!!!!GNCC comes here! Just think of us little guys down here when you draw up your schedule:D :D :D Derek

[mushinracing]

yes i am, more input i can get the more i can get done. i have ideas but want to hear from everyone on this one since its our childrens future.please take this post seriously . im tired of great people that love this sport so much get walked over .

[fastrnrik]

I personally like the way the GNC's used to be with TT & MX races together in the same series.

A race in FL would be nice too. Just not in the summertime haha

[quad59]

Something thats fun for the kids and rewards them with more than a piece of wood for the end of series champ. A bike he could use the next year would be the best thing for the kid and the parents. Parts work as well or maybe a gift card for their personal favorite aftermarket supplier. One race a month for wallet recovery time, electronic scoring,good facilities with plenty of passing room and track prep. I think if your looking into something that is going to involve alot of travel for people to come in and have alot invested you need to get some support at the track for parts,service,food. Its nice to go to the races and know their will be parts available when you break something.

[mushinracing]

i would like to see a easier way to sign up, maybe thumb scans instead of have to sign all paper work . they should make it easier for me to spend my money. not wait in a 30 min line with my 6 year old

[raidernut]

Scott

You need to take a serious look at how the WORCS Series operates. They manage to keep the costs down, and you can travel hundreds of miles to a race, and get more than a couple of 7 minute motos. For under a hundred bucks in entries, you can race two classes and get about 80-90 minutes of racing. It takes the best of both series, you get the MX racing of the ATVA, and the off road cross country of the GNCC and combines the two together. In my opinion this is the ultimate type of racing. In the
WORCS series they treat the youth as a major part of the program not just an afterthought of the Pro racing. As far as signups, WORCS does online pre entries, where you just show up to the track and get your staging stickers. You get a discount as well for doing it this way. Friday practice you get 3 -30 minute sessions if you so choose.

[bignasty]

Have to agree with Mark, WORCS does a great job, they also do the WORCS Kids on Saturday afternoon where they get to do different things from going bowling to having the pros do a workshop with the kids and give them pointers..

[hanker]

More TT racing in the North East!!! Sometimes I think most people don't even know what TT racing is.

[THARNESS]

Scott,

It would be great if there were a way to contend without $15k a year in travel expense alone. Right now, the National contenders are the fastest kids whose parents happen to have some money and who also have the ability to miss 30 days of work every race season.

I wish there could be some series where you had regional qualifers and then one huge race at the end to determine the champs.

Take a look at how the bikes do it. It seems to work pretty well for them.

[jandjracing]

Originally posted by mushinracing
If you could have a dream series how would it be ?
please go into detail please

1. Positive attitudes from the series track workers, parking jerks, score keepers, etc. I would feel better about spending money that way.
2. More common sense used by officials staging classes 90 to 120 minutes sooner than needed.
3. My kids want number card personel like the pro bike classes have, including the skimpy clothes. :)
4. More than 18 feet of pit space.
5. I don't think actual racers should have to pay for wrist bands. They help make the event. Just promote the race the way it should be and spectator wristbands will far offset the racer. Should help with racing costs and provide more for spectators to see.
6. Someone to hand deliver me a Jagermeister and Red Bull every 20 minutes that I am not working on something.

[mushinracing]

i agree . last year my son ashton took 3rd overall in the 50 ltd class but he only placed thrid 1 time in 10 races. the only reason is we could afford to make to all the races. i dont think this is fair to say my son is 3rd in the nation when we only raced on the east coast. how can any one really call there sellfs national champions. just cause their race is called the atv nationals. but is only on the east coast. and the same goes out west. there are kids out there that could flat out smoke some national champs but cant afford to race the series.. but lets get back to the point
WHAT IS YOUR DREAM SERIES ?

[Ryko racing]

This seems to be a never ending discussion. I just feel that we all work hard and spend a large amount of money to Race for Fun.
I know in my business that we are trained to take care of the customer.

WE ARE THE CUSTOMERS, THEY NEED US OR THEY WILL GO BROKE.

sUGGESTIONS ..

1 TREAT US FAIRLY AND COURTEOUSLY.
2 GIVE US A SAFE AND WELL PREPAREED TRACK.
3 HOW ABOUT LOOKING AT A QUALIFIER SYSTEM WITH A FINAL CHAMPIONSHIP RACE .
4 maybe have a split series with races within 400 miles.


Just for discussion, i think it would be nice if the kids got to watch the pros not be stuck in staging the same time each week.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I don't know if it has been said or not but.... I'd like to see the Saturday race be a qualifier or gate choice race for Sunday's main. Why is it that only the quads count moto 1 as half your score? If you have "issues" on Saturday then it makes Sunday NO fun. Supercross, TT, ect. all have the main as second moto, where you finish there is your finish.
Scott, the biggest issue I see is cost. If the cost come down then more ppl would come I believe. Also, the promotors need to make the evenings more exciting for the families. - i.e. - bands, dj's, something. For those unlike me who don't have to wrench on quads all night it is really boring.

[mushinracing]

what about the pits and vendor row what would you want to see? also what kind of activitys for the kids? please everyone if you want change then speak your mind.some may not know me but just trust me i can get stuff done. so speak freely

[T@AFP]

I'll chime in on this one.

Tracks:

*Option lines

*Maintained entire width of the entire track. example: Morning of the races, make sure they are not one line. Put bales of straw to force the big quads and minis to use the entire surface of the track.

* Be logical on how much and where water is layed down at night. So we can get to practice on Sat morn or Sun morn and not have to worry about riding in a swamp or mud bog. Most of us roll the dice and do not get to practice because the tracks such a mess.

* Must have areas to seperate riders. example: DOABLE Rythm sections, doubles, step ups/downs

* Maintenance on track throughout the race day.


Facilities:
*Do not charge to use a pit bike. That is a ridiculous idea to charge for that.
* Lower fees to get into the track. $40.00 a person for my family of 5 is a little steep.
* Ample flat parking
* Water lines at the ends of the parking rows.
* Activities for kids at night.
* Bike washing water available.
* Sign up open till 10: pm open at 7:am
* Faster sign up procedures
* Use Victory Powersports when ever possible. This crew get's it done.

More to come

[edwardsp&b]

I think those are all great ideas! Mr. Harness hit it on the head though, to increase overall attendance, and to make it worthwhile for all the local racers to want to attend there needs to be another way to run the series. The cost to run for a title is outrageous, not to mention getting off work or leaving your business at least 25 or 30 days.

Maybe look at the way the dirtbikes do it, they dont seem to have trouble with attendance.

And yeah, let Victory Sports run the race, they do a great job!

bryan

[doonanracing]

We have raced more TT than MX nationals over the past 2 years of racing so my opinion and what I have seen can be different. I don't race enough Nationals due to cost, travel distance and time to score enough points to win anything big. Just try to mix it all up so my son gets to try a little bit of every form of atv racing, then can make up his mind latter in life when he can pay for it on his own. Ha Ha
As far as ideas on a series or racing: Last year I thought Astabula does a great job in making it an enjoyable weekend. First thing you are in a park like setting under trees instead of forced in a field that was just mowed a few days before the event under the blazing sun. They start around 9am in the morning for practice and racing does not start til around noon so you have time to wakeup and sober up. On Friday they practice latter from 5-7 or 8 pm with the Pros getting practice after the amateurs are done so everyone can watch. This also makes it easier so you don't also have to take Thursday off of work to make it to the practice for 9am practice on Friday. Now Saturday after racing this is where I thought they made it nice. They have beer and a DJ and a party at night, they have a lake for swimming also during the day. and also they had a Harescramble race to watch thru the woods right next to the track right after the heat races on Saturday. There was even some racers and kids whom where doing mud slides in the mud from the harescramble track. Also for your entertainment they raced UTV's which I believe Tim Farr got behind the wheel of one of them using the track and doing the same jumps the atv's do. For those whom ever thought about TT racing this is a great track to try it out and have a nice weekend. More than just racing was happenning. Also Lake Erie was about 15 minutes away up the road to check out. I believe they run a knobby class for fun so you can just bring the MX atv how it is. My son looks forward to going to Astabula every year and most of it is because of allot of the above mentioned things going on than just racing and riding his bike around between moto's at the track.
- I like the idea of more regional racing (to travel less than 7 hours is how we look at any race we will go to) then one final national race and also the idea of mixing it up like it should with TT and MX racing and a little XC never hurt. ESPN I believe a couple years ago tried a race bringing all the top pros from different styles like XC, TT, and MX for one big race.
- Travel time and money is the biggest issue. so finding a way to offset some of those costs.
- I don't think there is one bad idea here.
- Great job to whoever got this going and maybe get it into the hands of someone whom might be able to do something with it.

[travis rimmer]

having to commit to three days is rough and to much money the dirtbike nats had this problem a couple years ago and the pros even stoped coming (stewart,reed,windham) now they run a one day event more racers and people come the sport is really growing because of it a one day event one b awesome and really help the sport grow

[TTracer#22]

Regional races like the bikes would be great so the ones over here on the left coast could get chance to come race on the east coast. Its hard for us to make a 30+ hour trip for a weekend race but it wouldn't be bad if we could qualify for the championship like the bikes do and make 1 week or 2 trip.

Just my thoughts

[mxdad423]

Ok I am basically going to agree with Mr Harness and the others. I would love for my son to go to the Nats but my job will not allow that. I am lucky to get a day a week off let alone 3 or 4. Most of us are in the same boat, you have to work that much if you have a kid that races, LOL.....So yea I agree do some regional qualifiers and then have one big race at the end to get your champ, then you could have a TRUE National champ and there would be alot more great young talent get the shot to show, there are alot of very talented kids out there racing locally that their parents can't get them to the Nats, this would give them a way to show there stuff. Good luck on getting something togeather, I will support any way I can, it would be great to see something like this happen, I think it would head up some really great racing.

Kevin Smitley

[mushinracing]

this is a great start . anyone in the northwest have any ideas. keep it coming the more i can gather on here the more i can get done. thanks to all so far that has tuned in.

[XBLASTERRACERX]

I would have to say 3 things that would really help the sport would be:
1. Regional qualifiers like the dirtbikes so it is possible for the average racer to get a TRUE national championship.
2. More outside sponsors and possibly real Tv coverage of the entire series to get more attenion to are sport.
3. More entertanment throught the race weekend for both racers and fans. Ex: pit parties, bands, lakes/pools.

[ATVMXN 4 FUN]

I agree with most the posts and here is my two cents. Regional qualifiers sound great but you cannot crown a national champ from one race. Maybe have like three regional races that all have a point value then a 3 moto format at the final. This way you have some type of reward for consistancy. That way you would not have a champion who was the best at that track and machine worked best that weekend.I believe the key to growing our sport is promotion of the event. We need to here and see all those annoying commercials THIS WEEKEND AT PLEASURE VALLEY ATV NATIONALS. If we can draw in spectaters our sport will grow. As our sport is now all of our fans are family and friend pods. If new people come you will have dads saying we should get into this. I agree with pit parties with bands and freestyle shows we most draw fans when we do this we will grow and with growth comes bargaining power. We as racers need to look at what can we do to make our sport bigger and maybe make some sacrifices in the short run to reep the rewards in the long run.

[jerkyboy]

To draw more spectators I think the tracks/promotors need to advertise in the nerby towns. Most people that live near these
tracks don't even know they are there. As for signups I think some kind of minor release card would speed things up a little,
make the card good for the whole season.

[travis rimmer]

the way the dirt bikes do it is good but there are triple the amount of riders across the country there is no national champ just championships at diff. tracks like the mini's 0's and lorreta's i think the atv nats got it right very cool for a kid to b natinonal champ just needs to b one day to make it easier for everyone to make it let the amatures run on saturday and pros on sunday anything would be better then having a three day vacation every other week and kids missing school its just crazy

[FISH ON!]

My son says he likes the WORCS series format with MX and woods racing all together. He races GNCC and they have a couple tracks like that but the MX portion is really tamed down. Two motos versus one and some practice time is great also. He has to race many of the GNCC races without even walking the track. I'm always on pins and needles wondering whether he is going to make it around that first lap.

Also ...... somehow the promoters and sponsors need to invest in their future a little more by investing in the youth racers. Some times I think they take it for granted that they'll be there when they get older. That's easier said than done in todays economy though..............we're just happy to get to race in an organized event these days.

[RCR_531]

I have only been to one event at Sunset so I don't have alot to go on.

The gate fees seemed high. This is a family event and it added up quick. Faster sign in would be great. maybe a swipe card for this.

Pit bike fee. I have seen worth but this sport aleast with the mini quads a pit bike is a must.

Vendors seemed to be a little under supplied with parts. It didn't feel like a National event.

I really enjoyed all of the helpful people in the pits. We are new at this and a couple people took us under their wing.

The stock class didn't seem to be to stock.

Dream race would be that the Quad was all setup for my boy and all we had to do is fly in to race that was all paid for by sponsors.

[mushinracing]

i would like to see more stock classes . and your rider should only be aloud to race 2 classes. who wants to race for second place all season long when there is a sand bagger in there class.

[Reimer Racing]

I like to ask a ???? Why do they combine the scores from moto 1 with moto 2? No other form of racing does it that way.

TT and supercross are like Nascar you qualify on sat and race on Sun. I just think that adding the scores is a dumb idea.

If you have a bad Qualify on sat you have no chance of winning on Sun.

Qualify on Sat for your gate pick and bring what you brought to the table on Sun. Just like all other forms of racing

Just my 2 cents it works for us in TT.

[THARNESS]

Outdoor motocross has always been a two moto format. It rewards consistency.

Scott, I belive that for our sport to grow it has to become easier for more people to race. A 3 day event 11 times a season takes most people out.

We have many friends who have left motocross for cross country because you show up, race for two hours and go home. No all day practice sessions, 4 laps one day and 4 more the next.

People would have to miss less work and kids less school if it were a one day format. Mabye youth on sat and am and pro on sunday. I also belive that there are too many classes which only waters down the competition and makes the day longer.

I think all of our's dream race would be full gates of competition within a reasonable drive from our home. Think how great a race it would be if all the regional qualifers from the entire country lined up at the gate for a chance to see who was the best of the best.

We have raced the Nationals for 6 years now, and for the most part we see the same people year after year. I know there are more people out there that are fast. If we want to grow this sport we have to find a way to include them. I belive that because of our current national mx system we are only getting a fraction of the riders. Cost and time away from work/school really needs to be addressed.

Scott, I wish you the best if indeed you think you can make a difference. I will help you anyway I can.

[jerkyboy]

Less classes would make for more full gates.
Do we need all these classes
450 A/B/C
production A/B/C
4-stocke A/B/C
Open A/B/C
If we cut 1 or 2 of these out there would be more full gates in some classes. I noticed in Pleasure Vally some gates only had 7 riders.

[zach R 7x]

I love the regional idea,but don't know if it would work for quads. in our local series,they run bikes also, there are 3 to every 1 quad at these events, possibly more than that.

I would also like to see more stock class's this would even the feild more for the riders and take away the advantage of more power wins the race,plus make it more affordable for more people to compete at a national level. With that being said, thats racing,there will always be somebody that will find away around it.

We run the nationals ,because for us, that is were you can run against 20 others on the gate and good competition every race. There are alot of great riders here in Ohio, and if we were to stay home and race we could have that level of competition every weekend. Just a thought!!!! LOL

Basically for us it comes down to money, if you can get the prices down we could afford to attend alot more races. I can live with all the dumb stuff if I was not spending $1000 (min. per race) of my hard earned money and being treated like a side show attraction.

[mushinracing]

by people replying on this thread will give me the ammo i need. I am only 1 race dad and when i get things done it will be because of all you who brought up changes. I truly love this sport and i will lead us in the right direction with all of your help, so please keep it coming, if you agree then get on here and agree or speek your mind, this thread will be printed and brought with me to my meetings , and when i get changes i will post each one on here so we all can see whats happend.
I am currently working right now to move the pros to the outdoor dirt bike nationals. and show up at selected am/youth events. i would like to see the pro pits reserved for points leader in each youth and am class points leaders.

[doonanracing]

After reading this is in full it appears there is almost all agreement on a couple things
1) more regional national series which require less travel that qualify for one national race to decide a true national championship (like the Superbowl in Football). This being used for both amateurs and pros. This could spread out the wealth to say with the pros and push some of the top riders to different series which could help with their growth. Can use the New England Series, North Series, South Series, Worcs, ITP quadcross series etc. and so on. You could even include some of the XC series. TT series etc into this. This could also help build those series and keep some of the national riders in those series instead of traveling the national circuit. For the east cost you can also still have the North and South just need to make sure it is more regional, this also could elliminate the need for anyone to travel the whole series North and South. This question ponders me with this national split though as how can 2 tracks in western pa one be concidered North and the other in the south (Confused on that one when I looked at my map). You would need to get promoters and sponsors involved allot for this as even though someone wins a series they would have to be able to afford to travel for this one event which could be more than a day or so drive or even having to fly in. etc to get to this one race.
2) Break up the weekend like M/C does for their outdoor nationals. Pro's, Top Pro-am class. Top Womens and great day for youth classes also to push the kids side of the sport on Day One (saturday). Saturday would seem a better day also to get spectators then Sunday. Add in a show like freestyle, bands etc to get people there and excited about atv racing. Then Sunday is for all the 450 and adult amateur classes not included. Meaning you only have to be there one day if you choose.
3) Less classes, which can speed up the day, fuller gates for the mains, and then we could add longer races for more track time which is bang for the buck. Why have all those classes and only 4 laps for MX. Have 1/2 as many classes and twice as much track time. This is a reason why I assume XC racing has become larger.
4) regional is where the focus has to be in order for atv racing to grow in my opinion. I have seen a great idea for a series right here in western PA go right down the tubes quickly. We have some of the best tracks in the country right here but the promoters push for motorycles and the only real time you get any time on those tracks is at the nationals. Can't really blame the promoters when they get less than 100 atv's and over 500 plus m/c on any given weekend.
5) I heard a mention of a promoter whom does a great job earlier in this post and is good for atv racing. Get them involved with all the series somehow.

[redonkulousruntsracing]

I think the sport needs to be promoted more. I would love to be able to watch the Pro races on TV. Not many people know that we race ATV's especially mini quads. We went to the Monster Jam show in Syracuse NY this year and my son and one of his buddies rode their mini quads in front of 20,000+ people. Maybe 2% even knew mini quads existed. Before the show during the pit party, the kids had a line of other kids waiting to see the bikes and to get an autograph from a 6 year old!! ATV racing will never grow until the sport itself is promoted and people are aware of it. Some of the best races I have seen have come from kids 4-14 years old. People really need to see these little guys go out there and ride there little butts off. In our local District (D3) mini quads were a novelty until this year. I volunteered and became the 50cc bike/youth quad coordinator for the District and now mini quads are the fastest growing class in D3. Kids are leaving their 50cc bikes and riding mini quads. You gotta know how mutch that burns a lot of the die hard bike only mentalities, when their kid says to them, Dad I dont want to ride my bike any more I want a 4 wheeler. I love it!! Take a page from what the AMA Bikes run both the supercross and motocross series. Heck even in Supercross there is only 1 National Champ the Pro's, even the Lites have a East coast champ and a West coast champ. Quad racing is definitly growing and it is about time that every rider gets the recognition they deserve. Promote, promote, promote!!

[moto50]

http://www.mostatemx.com/hlr/atv_amt_chmp.htm

[mushinracing]

does anyone know what stock classes should be?

[travis rimmer]

the motocross nats have one practice session saturday mourning then a timed one in the same mourning your lap times is how u qualfiy for each class very easy to do with the transponders they have now then u race two motos for each class one day event i know of alot of people who would do alot of nationals if they where one day the funniest thing ive ever heard is racing one moto saturday and one sunday and practice friday hard to get motivated for that or find the time

[THARNESS]

Originally posted by mushinracing
does anyone know what stock classes should be?
Stock classes are tough to regulate. I've seen more problems with a "stock" class than any other.
A stock DRR,apex,pitster, cobra ext, are very different machines. Not much of a race if stock cvt comes up against a stock cobra. Also, as we know stock suspensions generally don't work very well and can be very dangerous on a mx track. I think an entry level class would be attractive to new riders, but I belive some mods need to be allowed for saftey. Mabye a "beginner" class that you can only race in for one year and have mods limited to suspension and external performance mods.(pipe,clutch ect.)
Just a thought. I was a board member of a local/regional series a few years back and the stock classes are very difficult.

[THARNESS]

Hey Scott, I just sent you a pm.

[ATVMXN 4 FUN]

The way i see it we all agree
1. promote races(tv,radio)
2.make spectator friendly(entertainment, parking,vending,seating)
*this also includes reducing classes/practices/races nobody will set hours watching what seems to be the same people in different classes race.*
3. with reduction of these things you will have more time to make it a show (Put the top 3 Riders on podium) Make the podium exciting.

If you draw fans via TV or by putting on a good show you will grow the sport and have full gates. More people will see our sport and fall in love with it as we all have. The tools to make things happen are all of our ideas in this forum .An easier way for people to race and good promotion.If anybody can get this done it seems MUSHIN could be it. ANYTHING WE CAN DO TO HELP let us know.

[TTracer#22]

Hey Scott if you get a chance after the nats are over you should try to make it out to a WORCS race I know it has the added offroad that some don't like but I think you would be surprised at how good Shaun and his whole crew run things. The classes are structured good and everything they do is on time if your race is posted for 10:00 am you better be there at 10:00 you can go online to there site and look at what time you race will be at our next race in a few weeks and thates what time your gate will drop as they wait for no one. and the registration is simple you go online sign up for the race pay with CC walk up to the trailer and in 5 min or less you have all you paper work done and ready to go. The offer is still good if you want to ship Kodi's bike out here I have room in my trailer.

[miniracer]

Just my .02
I agree with everyone, All make great points.With that being said I work in the racing industria and its all about money and will always be about money. Us as a series need to get together come up with a top ten list and go from there.Nascar didn't get where its at in a day.
I don't mind the three day events but do realize not everyone can take the time off work or has the money to do it me included.
1) less classes
2) more vendors
3) cheaper gate fees (riders get in free they already have to pay for their classes)
4) better flaggers/ track crew more grooming of track
5) promote/ promote / promote
6) Rules put them in place and inforce them on and off the track
7) North, south series and we meet in the middle if you have the time and money to do both great, but you will only run for the north or the south when it comes time for the final race at selected track. So if you finished 1st in one and 8th in the other you have to choose one allowing another rider a spot on the gate.
8)practice on friday afternoons/evenings where we can if they have lights run all the kids classes on Saturdays.
9) Better track selections lets face it not all the tracks we go to are great. There are more tracks out there that would love to have us not just the current 10 we run now.
10) last but certainly not least lets focus on the youth they are the future of our sport...........

[travis rimmer]

jmo but the kids have school on friday and most people work on friday this is the biggest reason i disagree with the three day weekend practice saturday mourning early and race i could leave friday afternoon and b at just about any national by saturday am and home on sunday even a two day weekend is better but its still silly to run a moto a day i see area qualifyers for dirt bikes run 30 classes in one day easy. two motos and pratice with plenty of time to spare and if you dont have a motorhome u might as well dont go to a three day weekend i be willing to bet the gates will start filling up with a one day event. three day events are taking 3/4's of the racer's out before the gate even drops i know ill never run one how its set up and its a shame because i want to take my son

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Right on, it's all about the kids. The little guys I feel take the biggest risk. The 1st National I ever let my son race in was 'Dilla last year. To see a 5 year old jump into Gravity Cavity is crazy. And then for him to crash jumping into it, then getting right back on his quad and finishing, is amazing. That is just one small example of the crazy and couragous thinks these kids are capable of. I think the kids should be treated like Rockstars. I know there is nothing more rewarding that watching your kid ride his heart out and come off the track with a smile so big it just about pops off their helmet. I know everyone is there to race, but I think special attention should be given to the kids. Without them there is no future in our sport.

[dws1310]

I think the future of the ATV Nationals primarily rests on one word: Television.

With television (speed channel, versus or first choice, epsn 2) you get one million watching Natalie on the podium at pv vs. 200. It's an amazing chain reaction with tv- with tv comes multiple factory teams (by next year w/o tv suzuki and can am should be gone), more mid level and entry level sponsorships teams, with exposure more spectators, thus lower gate fees, better tracks, more riders, less expensive machines, parts- economies of scale go everywhere in the sport-then enough riders to hold regionals, etc. (Look at all the other sports, politics, etc.-the more tv friendly the bigger/more pay, more involvement...) Follow the money.

A group of sponsors and private investors needs to get together and pay to produce a high quality 60 min. (42 min. w/o commercials) program of all 10 or 11 2011 Nationals to run in 2011. With 42 min. youth and amateurs could be featured with the pro's as long as everyone is stilling running the same weekend. The exposure/excitement for youth/amateurs racers would be tremendous! Let's face it , WPSA had it right but couldn't hang on- two series were too much- the atvpg/ama could- but they need help regarding the biggest piece of this deal-TV. Obviously, this would benefit them just like the Lucas Oil bike outdoor Nat's. TV deal does.

One specific thought: Cut the Nat's to a two day or two and a half event vs. three (don't tell my boys I said this:). I fly to the Nat's and I think it's too long-I can't imagine all the driving most of you do-atv parents have to be the most committed of any sport I've been involved with!

Grant Medlin

[Logan #34's Dad]

There is no reason why we need to be there on Friday. We are done on Saturday at around 3pm most of the time. Practice on Saturday morning then start racing. Mandate the tracks have lights and do it all in one day. Saturday would be best because that gives everyonedrive time. Nothing like driving home till midnight then getting to work at 6am.
One day (Saturday) would make things a lot cheaper for everyone. No rv (fuel cost plus cost of rv), no Hotel fees, Less days off work for everyone,
Pro's race on Sunday's - Only issue- w/o promotion, no-one would be there to watch.
We need to bombard SPEED CHANNEL w emails to get them to cover our events. Even a blip on the speed report would be nice. They cover motoGP and no-one cares about what goes on overseas. And I'm a fan.
Bring the cost down and they will come! As i've said before, there are a few kids locally that if they could afford it - would be whipping our butts. i.e. - Bryden Guyer - won moto one at P.V., also I've heard of Ryan Dupont who is suppose to be incredible. These are only 2 kids among hundreds.
The WPSA humbled the AMA but now they are back doing the same old stuff that created the WPSA in the first place.
If more ppl show up then the costs per person would come down.

[mushinracing]

i dont think we are ready for tv yet. the foundation is not inplace yet but within a year or two we should have something thats tv worthy 15 pros on the gate isnt going to cut it. and as far as stock classes , im with a 1 year beginer class for 50,70,90 and a open class that has a age limit. what do y'all think about this?

[LT80]

I been thinking about the one day thing.
How about run 1/2 (or more) of the classes (both motos) on Sat. and the rest on Sun.
That would eliminate a day.
Set the classes different every to weeks (like now) so you know if you need to show up for Sat or Sun.

[quad59]

If it was one day I can say that I would be interested with my 2 boys and a friend of mine would be interested with his boy. As of now my boys are not ready for that level of competition but if they were I would not race the nats regardless due to the cost and time it takes. For the cost to do one nat I can race every weekend for 2 months locally. If it was a one day program I would be trying to train the kids up and build better equipment. Its just easier to live out of the cooler for one day and not have to worry about hotels and motorhomes.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Here in-lies another issue about the Nationals. Everyone believes that the riding ability needs to be supierior. Not true. There are some real slow riders out there. If your rider is running in the front of the pack locally you'll be surprised - he will do well at a National as well. Now, if your expecting to win your 1st time out....... Every class has 3 or so kids that are better than the rest. If you show up expecting to compete w them then you'll be disappointed. But you never know until you try.

[DEVINF450R]

There is an ATV Amature National that is ran every August at HLR raceway in Moberly, MO that has regional qualifiers like Lorretta's does for bikes. lots of minis and other quads. about 200-300 entries every year. it would be nice to see this thing get bigger and see someone like Scott take it to another level with all his exposure. Not just for youth racing but for all atv racing.

[mushinracing]

i just got off the phone with dean from the nats, he stated that the womens bike nats filled the spot for atvs and the atv manufacters said they dont want that, the funny thing is the ones he stated dont give one dollar to our series. but i did mention running all youth motos on sat including practice then running pros at the end of moto1 and moto2 . this would get the am classes watching and no kids waiting in staging before they race. this would do a couple things.
1. more youth riders at nats
2.no more school missed
3.have the feilds full of people watching pro race(makes more tv worthy).
4. cuts cost for flaggers on fri, or have a better budget for trained flaggers for sat , sun
5. kids can stay up a little later enjoying fun stuff, not having dad say no you cant go have fun or you wont have no energy for tommorow.
how does this sound. please i need more feed back, you will be heard,.

[T@AFP]

Scott,
Are you pitching this idea to all the amatuer classes or just the mini's?

I assume you are talking to all the amateur classes. Otherwise, you're fighting a "uphill battle".

Clearly there will be more attention if we all collectively have a say in this. Meaning all the classes.

As I have seen it over the many years of attending the ATV Nationals, WPSA and even local events. The "mini classes" seem to get less respect or taken seriously from the management, track owners or promoters. The way I see it, they look at us as complainers. However, we do have some good numbers, at the National level, which equal some respect. ($) but...

So with that being said. It may behoove the "cause" to do a formal inquirey on the home page of the site. Asking everybody your question. Just as you asked at the begining of this thread.

Just my opinion.

[mushinracing]

i am starting with youth riders first since we are always last. the am's will get there spot light when im done with the youth. i have to focus on one thing at a time or i will just be spinning my wheels. remember when i started my team it was for our kids future, giving them the spot light and i will live true to my word NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!!.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Scott, anything to bring the costs and time down would be a great idea. Thats what seems to be the theme in this thread. imo
Most of these tracks have lights so why not a one day deal. I realise that w it being a two day deal, there is the "challenge" of different conditions between the days. But, with the evening setting in throughout the day, it would make for different conditions. We all race locally on a one day format with all the bike classes and make it work, so I'm sure we can do it on a National level.
Additionally, If the weather is real bad on Saturday then everything can be moved to Sunday. We could all go to the local attractions that day.

[mushinracing]

i need more people that dont run nats reply on why they would start running

[quad59]

I dont run nats because of the format, to much time off and to much money to stay thursday night - sunday. My boys are also really green racers but as there skills develop if the format continues the same way I will not even consider it. Switch it to a one day deal or even a friday night practice both motos on saturday I would consider doing probably 4 or 5 and maybe more depending on how they do.

[LT80]

Originally posted by mushinracing
i need more people that dont run nats reply on why they would start running

Scott, maybe start a thread for that. Maybe a poll type. :)

[quadrider79]

First I must say I like one moto a day. Everyone should keep in mind that if both moto's were in one day and something on your machine broke in the first moto, would you be able to get in fixed and back together before the gate dropped on the 2nd moto.

Rocky, At Muddy Creek you tore up the rear bearing carrier. I think it was in the first moto. Do you feel you could have gotten it fixed to make the 2nd moto??? IF BOTH MOTO'S WERE ON THE SAME DAY....

In our local district we ran practice Sat. and Raced on Sunday, both motos. At times it was stressful and more pressure. Between moto's you had to hurry and make sure everything was alright with the quads.

JMO.

[EthansDad]

So Scott,

First off, thanks for taking the time an interest to better our sport. some good points and conversations here. how do you propose consensus is gathered for a unified voice? polls on this forum could be used, or maybe another method. A lot of game changer ideas here that will benefit some, hurt others so hopefully a vote tally will better the masses and not the few.

Here is my $.02 on ideas:

1. reduce cost and event time - I'm for it
--risk here is break downs and turn time, which might be a motivator for more team support/parts companies to get more involved.

2. regional qualifiers - I'm for it
--problem here is that regional series around the US are screwed up and not organized. not all regional series run the AMA flag or anywhere close to the same format. maybe if the "carrot" of a national AMA qualifier was offered, more promoters would get on board. just keep in mind not all districts are like district 6 or other flagship areas. could be some real heavy lifting to get that organized.

3. more about the kids - I'm for it
--I still think the pros need to be treated like "kings" to some degree, but consideration for what the young ones have to go through is overdue. Also, kids activities and events during the downtime is a great idea and when its done (like lorettas, or even water balloon fights like PA) its always a good time and builds sportsmanship and memories that last.

4. reduce/change the class structure - I'm for it
*IF* its done right.
--there is lots to consider. a hasty change might hurt the sport a lot rather than grow it. good ideas already put out there, but I think this needs to be vetted out to make sure we get it right. Stock classes are a pain in the butt and not worth it. "open" style based on age range is going to get some fool putting a 6yr old on a too fast 90cc and getting hurt, no good. beginner classes is a good idea, but not sure how to do it. could use the AMA A,B,C rank system or something, but tends to grow classes, not shrink them. I'm not sure what the right way to do this is yet.

5. Changing the overall format to something other than MX - I'm NOT for it.
--I'm glad the WORC series folks have a good time, it does sound like fun, but not something I'd be into. It changes the game completely.

6. consistent track experience - I'm for it.
--like the points others have made. why can the sign up, vendor experience, fees, track maintenance, safety crews etc be consistent? it seems the small print of "promoter option" is the loop hole that gives each promoter the right to change things around. If I was a promoter, I'd want to have some freedom to do my own thing a bit, but there needs to be a line.

7. Better promotion of the sport on the whole - I'm for it.
--TV would be great, but I see your point on only 15 pros. What about getting some of the moto mags to do an article on the series? I see the mini Olympics got a great write up this month in one of transworlds mags, where is the ATVA getting its mainstream press? Also, if we had great vendors and stuff for kids to do around the day, I'd bet we'd get a lot more local folks come out and enjoy (and pay). just promote it like a county fair, that always draws the locals out of the woodwork.

[travis rimmer]

Originally posted by quadrider79
First I must say I like one moto a day. Everyone should keep in mind that if both moto's were in one day and something on your machine broke in the first moto, would you be able to get in fixed and back together before the gate dropped on the 2nd moto.

Rocky, At Muddy Creek you tore up the rear bearing carrier. I think it was in the first moto. Do you feel you could have gotten it fixed to make the 2nd moto??? IF BOTH MOTO'S WERE ON THE SAME DAY....
In our local district we ran practice Sat. and Raced on Sunday, both motos. At times it was stressful and more pressure. Between moto's you had to hurry and make sure everything was alright with the quads.

my point exactly quad 79
thats racing and makes my point about one day even better most of us wouldnt have the resources if we broke on saturday to run sunday anyway and after u commit to three days and break thats bad id rather break in a one day event any time and most of the time you will have several hours to repair your machine between motos if u couldnt repair it in that time probaly wasent gonna run moto 2 any ways jmo
JMO.

[mushinracing]

This is just a start, all of these post will be printed off and taken with me to a meeting to show the concern we all have. i will not be making up changes, just delivering all of our concerns. i will only fight for what we all want and make sure we get what we want . we are months away from any decission this is just the first part of it. and understand if we just get a few things done, that will be a step in the right direction. remember they are running a biz for profit, and any biz will go under with bad customer service. if you dont get on here and speak then you have no voice. reminds me of a time my buddy was mad about the outcome of the prez election. i turned to him and said quit complaining YOU DIDNT VOTE!!!!!!

[mxdad423]

Originally posted by mushinracing
i need more people that dont run nats reply on why they would start running

Hey Scott, here are our biggest reason's in order of why,

The biggest is the length of the weekend, 3 days at the track plus 1 or 2 in travel time is just not doable for us because of my job, Saturdays are even tuff for me sometimes but I can normally get around a Saturday. So shorter weekends and maybe only 1 a month instead of 2 would be a big thing for us.

Cost of gate, entry, and pit bike fees, not saying it's not doable but could be cut a little to help bring some bigger crowds.

Thats really the only things that keep us away, and again getting away from work for 4 days or so every 2 weeks is just impossible for me, I have 2 Nats with in 1 hour of my house and I didn't make either of them this year because I couldn't get away from work. My son has loved every nat we have attended over the years and would love to go more, and we are planning on trying to make a few next year but it's really hard with my job. He normally does really well when we do go and that makes me want to get him there even more. These kids deserve alot more exposure then what they get, I can remember a couple of years ago we was racing a local race at High Point right after the High Point Nat, they wanted to cut the track for the 90's because they said it would save some time, Just so happened we had the lap times printed out from the previous week at the High Point Nat, and showed them how close of lap times these little guys and gals were running to the big boys, needless to say we got the whole track, it just never seems like they give these little guys and gals enough credit, CREDIT THAT THEY DESERVE. so whatever I can do to help out to make some changes to get more people there including us, and to get our great sport of ATV racing to grow just let me know.

Kevin Smitley

[raidernut]

What about the way WORCS does it less races, spread out over a longer period of time? We run 8 races total with one drop, and the races are spread out a month apart. Much easier to get the time off, and bikes prepped once a month. Maybe the weather back there wont allow that for you guys though with winter and all?

[121dad]

There is nothing gonna change the gate fees and sign up it costs money to promote and hold these events there are alot of expenses i dont think we all realize that are involved with an event. 1 race a month during maybe a 8 month span would b good. also 5 lap practice sat morning followd by 1st set of motos. family fun and repairs for the evening and 2nd moto sunday with a top 3 rider podium per class. restructure the classes which should be done every year.get rid of the pro time we are losing everyweekend. it will make for a faster day bringing in more revenue to the event because it would be more affordable being that it could be done in 2 days as regional events. Maybe its time for a change of hands of the series:D

[mini racer #39]

JMO I would love to go to a National that has regular bathrooms and a place for showers..(And not $5.00 for 5 minutes either!)...Not everyone has a camper with fresh water! Last weekend was HOT HOT HOT and no place for a shower! The promoters make enough $$$ from us that I don't think that is an unreasonable request.
I also think charging for pit bikes is CRAZY! Friends of ours last weekend had a golf cart and a four wheeler and it cost them an extra $40.00 in pit vehicle costs!!! Thats a little hard to swallow...

Bobbie

[EthansDad]

now now Mr. Williams, I am not picking on your series. it sounds like it runs great and is very well established and organized. we could learn from that. my point was that its not pure MX, its hybrid mx/cross country and that changes how we tune bikes, train, design and such. not that its a bad thing, just very different from pure mx.

Another point I wanted to make is what does a promoter at a race REALLY do? the title would imply they try to, well promote the race and draw in racers and spectators. I have never seen that happen. some run the program better than others, but still no real promotion of the sport or the race weekend. if the promoters are lacking in their jobs, whose job is it then? I don't know what is broke with promoters, but something is not working if we as a group have to figure out how to pick up the slack and grow attendance at each race. if we do actually figure it out, its the promoters that benefit from it from not doing a thing.

Maybe someone can shed some light on why promoters don't promote.

-EA

[mushinracing]

please dont call them a promoter that offends me, they run races thats about it.

[121dad]

Not to sure what to call them anymore

[mushinracing]

i am going to need more than a couple peoples idea, if you agree tell your friends to get on here and speak.the window for oppurtunity is here

[neveready]

I have been reading everyones ideas and complaints here and would like to chime in.

I like the idea of the amateurs still having two days, but, I like the idea of practice sat. morning, qualifiers on Sat afternoon and a main on sunday. Taking four days every other weekend is just too much time off work, then the cost of being in a hotel for three nights,and all the fees associated with gate and entry and transponder fees is alot after only working a few days that week.

An 11 race series is too long. 20k plus to win a title is insane, and thats what it takes, not including the bike or repairs, just going to the races. we too often see riders in the top points simply because they made the races, some great riders just cant afford to run them all. It has been a toss up for most people I know to either make the races or buy the parts to improve the bikes, most cant afford both.

Why do we keep running the same tracks year after year? If we rotated more tracks, it would expand the sport to more riders! Local riders show up, have fun and suddenly get into the series!! I think that would get more spectator attraction as well. A lot of people haven't ever seen a national event.

I think some stock classes could help with the cost issues, 20k for a bike then constant maintenence and repair makes the pockets thin before the season even starts.

I have several customers and friends that dont go simply because of money, they're other issue without having a rediculous amount work done to the bike and motor, they cant compete!! and again that's more money

I like the A,B,C class structure of the bike bikes. Something similar would be nice for us. There is NOT ONE CLASS that a 10-12yr old average rider with an average bike can show up and even qualify. NO ONE wants to show up to just get smoked and not qulify, it's discouraging.

I am sick of hearing"yeah but this is the nationals" then you just don't want it to grow. We need to make it inviting for new people to attend, give them a class where they have a chance and then they'll keep moving up. It's a proven fact, just look at the results from the past 3 years, same names, different bikes. It gets in your blood, but you have to have a starting point for everyone. OK,OK thats what locals are for right? Not so much anymore, there aren't any local races around me worth running.

My other complaint for our series is the dont have anything accomodating for spectators. Who wants to stand in an unmowed field or sit on broken bleachers with weeds growing threw them to watch a race with nothing else to do? Bring in some entertainment, some food booths, games for the kids etc.. They seem to try to make it decent for the racers, but what about the spectators? Until we can pack them in our fees will always be high, we as racers are the only ones sharing the cost of the entire event!!

The key to reducing gate fees and races fees is more entries!!! Anyone that says lower the cost and more will show up just doesn't understand how to run a business!! It takes a certain amount of money to run an event, the fewer the people the bigger the share per person, it's simple economics.

I have said enough,but my bottom line idea is.... Make it more fun, more inviting, more exciting, and more people will show up, racers and spectators.

[dws1310]

For the best weekend Quad only racing schedule I've seen go to hlrmotorsports.net , click on ATV Amateur Championships and scroll down to weekend schedule.

I think this takes care of most of the concerns- eliminates one full day, unless you just want to come early, plenty of practice first thing Sat. morning and the two moto, two day format.

[Logan #34's Dad]

To reenforce to Neverready's comments, Take a look at Loretta's - They have food booths, vendors and just stuff to do. Thats why there is such a draw to the place - not because of the competition. They understand the "game". These track owners have got to understand that they can charge a flat rate for space to these food and game booths and make money that way. Kinda make it like a local small town festival that weekend. I know a local track here holds a bike Loretta qualifier and they bring in a mini festival.
Sounds like if the AMA would eliminate Friday practice we may get more entries. I agree. When we all race locally we get one practice before a race and then start racing. This would help on equipment costs as well.
I also like the idea of getting other tracks involved. Same places over and over gets old AND we limit the "local" talent to the same people.

[121dad]

get new officials the other ones are burnt out:devil:

[mushinracing]

"Build it and they will come"
Dave thomas, founder of wendys

I think he may know a thing or two about marketing.

Please we need more people on here speaking there mind, they will not do crap if i only have 20 or so youth parents complaining on this thread. I know alot of parents that that are viewing this and not replying, SHAME ON YOU , This is or childrens future, why should i help people that dont help there selves. So if something changes within the series and you dont like it than its your own fault.

[121dad]

new class structure, new management new guidlines

[jandjracing]

It seems no matter which track you go to there are always some issues. Why should untrained local farmers, kids, or grocery store cashiers be put in charge of the racers well being if the racer breaks down or has a wreck? I would like to see a group of trained flaggers that travel with the Refs. That way they would be on the same communication wave, and might see problems with racing methods or accidents. This would provide a safer, more professional and consistent experience on the track. Maybe call them in for a break durring track maint so they can sit down on a chair just like many peoples jobs provide.

[THARNESS]

Great idea. You can't be a lifeguard at any city pool without proper training and certification, a flaggers job is just as important.

[coffing918]

Originally posted by THARNESS
Great idea. You can't be a lifeguard at any city pool without proper training and certification, a flaggers job is just as important.
I like that Idea that way if a young kid brakes down being something simple like oneday my sons spark plug cover came off, the guy that went over to help him had no idea how to even start the thing and they towed him off, if was so simple to just look and put the cover back on,= a DNF

[cobra44]

scott i like alot of these ideas. I think if the pros got to practice on friday while we can set up or get to the track. this would give us more time on sat. to run practice and a two moto format. I recall 5 or 6 years ago quillifers for most youth classes. my sons first national there were 39 50s i was just happy to be there it was awsome. He quilified but had to run lcqs those days are gone I hope you and all of us youth parents can bring that back. I want to compete against the best not those with only expendable cash. Frenchys idea on flags is great. We were in virgina this year and watched a flagger sleep through 5 or 6 motos thats safe.

[Full Throttle00]

Lots of great ideas on here, I agree more is needed just like VOTING :rolleyes:

Scott, this is a great thing you are pioneering here.
The racing scene is both very confusing and intimidating for many.
Beginner & Advanced Stock classes would be great for each cc engine type (CVT, SS, Shifter 2 & 4 stroke classes). Could truely show who is the best rider may be, rather than like a few stated spend $10k- $30k on fuel, $150k+++ on a travel race rig, $10k on parts, gear, tires, brakes, insurance, spending money for the trophy wife for the 10 shopping malls you pass each trip, show up & you'll be a top 3 national champ.

Never really cared for the split moto's being 1/2 of points just a gate pick for the main with a LCQ like supercross would be nice.

We've raced for 4 years, started out sleeping in the truck, then with friends, bought our own ride, then decided it was tooooo much time, money, effort to spend all our time getting dirty for a few hours, breaking our junk, and spend the whole next week / month CLEANING busting our A$@es', everything dirty & broke just to do it all again the next month. Now with #3 baby over the $2 million dollar mark we are back between staying with friends / in the truck back where we started. Thing is, we would not trade any of the great times ATV racing has brought to our family for anything because we enjoy the thrills of what racing has allowed us as a family to create alot of memories and friendships. I just can't see doing it the same way over again just for a few more pieces of hardware in the tropy room.

Running alot of MX, Flat Track/ TT, Harescrambles and WORCS when the series travels close to home we enjoy all the types of ATV racing because each one always brings us to a new scene, not the same old thing.
I for one will say that having structured times and classes for races like WORCS and a few others we have run has it's advantages and kicks *** because you can plan for your event and not have to wait in stagging, rush around trying to figure out when the LCQ or next moto will be. Everyone get's to watch the pro's practice and race which brings larger crowds. Like Mark stated, they really do an awesome job in promoting the youth racers as they are the future. I read this year they offered promotional rewards for individuals to make a few $$$ spreading the word and passing out fliers to all the local dealers, business', etc that a National Race Series is coming to town. Having a marketing program to go a step further and have local business support, news / media recognition can only gain awareness to help any sporting event grow.

I for one would like to see regional qualifiers for a true National Series Race MX, XC, etc. Problem that I can see is that current regional & local series make it difficult to add in another series as if you miss one or 2, you're out of contingentcy for what is at stake locally. Now that I said that, there is not much at stake when you look at it, it's fun for our kids and they are the future of this sport activity. Many have said "I will only run local races because all I would be chassing is another trophy for what? " Pride? Recognition? More money spent to be the next Bubba, Ricky, McGrath, Pastrana?
If there was something more out there than a few discounts, t-shirts, (did I say trophies?), and parents wearing "my kid is faster than your kid" across their forehead. (just kidding):devil: Having something more than another piece of hardware for such a costly sport that one can actually use (xl t-shirts don't fit an 7-8 year old too well & 40% off of 450 parts expire before we can use them aren't exactly what most have in mind.

We haven't been in this long enough to be looking for sponsors let alone asking for any. Just a room full of shinny memories, some day to look back when we're older and say do you remember that one, and so on.... I live through my children with this crazy race thing and other activities we do that provides us with lasting memories we will have forever.
And yes. we would like one from the right coast/ nationals to add to the collection someday also.

Up here in the NW, riding / racing areas are on the decline and places still available are costly and turnout is low for the high cost of a traveling local series, national series is only visiting 1x rather than 2. A grass roots program at the local level could be implemented in conjunction with national support to be sucessful in the long run. Having an Association / Affiliation could keep things in check with how things are run and duplicate efforts to ensure all is being done the same way across the country, not what the weekend TRACK ORGANIZER wants to change last minute. Problem is that many of the ones running things most of the time know how to draw the #'s, focus on the ones who's #'s create the largest support, self gratification, set ways get in the way.
Examples:
1) McDonalds, you can get the same cheese burger, fries, & coke all over the world for about the same price.
2) The NRA helps provide tools, support, and ways to create and organize local chapters that promote, defend, and allow citizens the rights to keep & bear arms.
Have membership for an organization that holds banquets for current and new members to join, auctions, food, support & give away's from local vendors, supporters, and manufacturers of products.
And so on...
We belong to a few clubs on a local level that do things like this to increase membership, great food, meet and sign up new members, that follows these motto's.

Have a program that would have national support at the local level for all phases of ATV, Bike riding & racing. Association/ Support to attract new people interested in riding recreationally or competatively. manufacturer partners, create riding areas, political support, and so on....
It's late (3:am time for bed) and don't know all what I just said, if any of it makes sence and you like it or not let me konw I can handle it :cool:


If you can dream it, build it! or just give me the $$$ and I will do it for you) :D
Take pieces or whole what someone has been doing that already works.
Quit trying to reinvent a new wheel, they are all round.
Most of all, keep it fun for all participants, family, spectators.

ATVSTOCK 2011 "Party on dude"

[bignasty]

Have a program that would have national support at the local level for all phases of ATV, Bike riding & racing. Association/ Support to attract new people interested in riding recreationally or competatively. manufacturer partners, create riding areas, political support, and so on....

The WORCS has this in place here in the southwest for the dirt bike riders....Webe Racing Affiliation. It is based on the national level but at a local stage. We have run them and are very organized just like the Nationals..

[john willhoite]

a race in texas!

[mushinracing]

what about classes?

[Full Throttle00]

Ultimate MINI QUAD DREAMRACE: IROC type Race / Series...

Racers from all over fly in from all parts of the country/ world, (bring your own gear & pay a fee) timed qualifiers to fill 30+ race positions on Friday practice times will compete for 50-60 heat races on Saturday ( Heat, LCQ) Main race on Sunday. Extras riders will be used as alternates.

Top 30+ lap times awarded to fastest riders will race.

20-40 Quads supplied by Manufacturer, Promoter, Sponsor.
Set up exactly the same stock or aftermarket/ mods set up ready to race on the line with on hand mechanics for preperation & maintenance.

Guranteed full gates 20-30 on the line for heats, lcq, & mains.

Holeshot awards & fastest lap awards (tires, parts, pre-paid credit cards)

Winner of each class takes home a new ride, sponsorship, promotions, etc...

Everything is in place.
Oh yeah classes... Keep it simple, but some ideas.

50,70,90cc CVT (Apex, DRR, etc..)
Cobra/ SS
2 Stroke / 4 Stroke Shifter (JB, Raptor, Pitster 90,125,150 etc.)
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Now who wouldn't want this?

[121dad]

That would take time to make being the proper way would be to look at results, ages of riders advancing, sign up totals these need to be adjusted every year.

[EthansDad]

I've already added my $.02 on ideas, liked what I've read and gave my kodos to you for giving a damn about our sport.

With that being said, even with 88+ replies and thousand + views, I don't think this is enough. most of the replies here are from the national "regulars" with a few new voices adding some ideas. Sure, I'd like to make it better for "us", but I'd really like to see the sport grow and the gates get bigger even more.

There are thousands of folks on this forum that ride quads, have kids, but are not getting their kids into racing yet, or only do local racing. Do they not know about the big series, the quads that can perform for youths (how many hard core Honda/yam riders know what a DRR/APEX/Corbra is??), not think there is a support community, or maybe something else that keeps them from it.

I'd really like to see if we can capture some options from those folks on what they think about their kids racing, why they do/don't hit national races, etc. those options will likely tell more than us "regulars" asking for fine tuning.

Any chance you can get the admin/moderator to take this thread to the top level, or do some sort of blast to his user community for opinions? Maybe the fine folks at ATVRE can do a quick blurb on the opinion gathering or something. I'd be curious why a quad enthusiast on this forum that has kids does not have them racing or looking at the national scene. If we could find that out, we'd be farther down the road.

-EA

[EthansDad]

Also since you are asking about classes, here are some thoughts on that.

Last year, I pushed hard for a 70 CVT stock class for 6-8 yr olds. we had some good discussions, and I changed my opinion to a 50 mod class instead, which turned into the 50 CVT class we have this year due to an email drive we did to the ATVA.

I think stock classes, run per the supplemental rules the ATVA puts out is FAIR and FAST for any class. They will let you reinforce the frame, run better suspension and some minor internal motor mods. It IS a great way to keep the cost down for entry level folks, gives the kids some great racing action, and gives the motor builders a chance to really put their best work in.

Here is the major draw back to the stock classes, and why so many pulled away from it last year - RULE ENFORCEMENT. there really is none bar a parent that gets ticked and protests. Even then, I'm not real convinced the officials would know what to look for or test with out a major mini motor team there to guide them.

So if things lead toward stock classes, what I'd propose is a better tech inspection to go along with the process. today, the only things they check are width (they only check the max width for 450s, not mini stock), number plates and kill switch. there is SO MUCH more that needs to be checked on a stock bike, and I don't think the ATVA is trained on how to check it, nor do they care up front.

What normally happens on folks out of rule spec for stock is not that they are intentionally cheating, but rather they run a local/regional series that has different rules. the nationals comes to town, so just load up the bike AS IS and go run. that does not cut it for stock. with out stock rule enforcement addressed, we will grown gates for at least 1 year, then every one stops coming after getting into a stock class throw down on what's legal and says forget the nationals.

-EA

[redonkulousruntsracing]

I agree with Eric and FullThrottle00 on 2 points.
1. Rule enforcement, I have spent the last 2 years trying to get the most out of Seth's Apex 50cc and keep it within the rules. But Tech inspection is really a joke. "Pull your tether, make sure your number plate is on the front of your quad, have a nice day" I could run a 70 cc cylinder and get away with it in the stock limited class. No offical would ever catch it. But let me tell ya, there are a lot of sharp mini parents that wouldn't let that even make it thru staging just by the sound of the motor, and like Eric said, with out a mini quad Dad being there to point things out, the officials wouldn't have a clue.

2. I for one get really tired of watching kids who dont ride the best get out there and beat out kids who really have talent but maybe their Dad cant afford to spend $7 - 10k on a machine for that kid. Any one can squeeze the go lever and go fast."We win cuz we got the $$$" is how it is now, and probably is the reality of racing. I can see it in the older classes, but when we are looking for young talent, it usually gets lost on the quad and not the rider. Dont anybody get defensive on this, I am stating this merely as a general statement. I know that their are a lot of good riders on good equipment out there.
You said Dream Race, that would be it have 30 identical quads all set up and let the kids ride them, then we would see who is the best rider. This is a Dream Race senario, but wouldn't it be cool to see the competition then. Whats more fun to watch, a kid with a half lap lead on every one or 4-5 kids banging bars and swapping positions, that would be my Dream Race.

[quad59]

For class's how about change the 50 limited to Beginner limited 8yrs and younger 70cc and below and add a beginner limited 9 yrs old and up 70cc-90cc. This will give people with older and younger children a place to race nats without having the high dollar equipment. Also a place to race your ATV if you dont have a local series without going "all in" with the pocket book. Make the the top 5 move out to another class at the end of the year.

[edwardsp&b]

I like the ideas of the stock classes, but I would hate to see a bunch of parents arguing at every national. Unless you had a great tech inspection, which would probably take paying a mini motor genius, you would have problems everywhere you go. I can see that turning people off too. I dont want to go racing just to argue every weekend, I can stay home and do that with the wife.

I also get tired of hearing about the "you can spend 7 to 10 thousand on this quad and i cant". Talking that way will also turn people off.

I used to think the same thing, but after traveling with the circus this year I have noticed something. EVERYBODY has 7 to 10 thousand in their CVT, and the ones that are winning are the ones that know how to tune their bike for every occasion. Next national you go to, take a look in the pits, the kids that are up front are the ones that have dads that know exactly how to tune these monster CVT quads.

Bottom line, most of us on here are "the little guys" and its going to take a grassroots type of campaign to grow this sport we love. Talk up our sport wherever you go, and try to get others involved. Every time I go to a local i see a new mini parent trying to figure out their CVT, go up and ask if they need help. Most of them will really appreciate you just asking. Their are a lot of tips and pointers that we have all learned over time that we could share with the new crop of mini parents. And im sure they would be thankful for it, I know i was.

As for the dream race topic, if we can just make it more affordable, and less time consuming during the week, we will attract more people. The idea of spreading the series out to one a month, would be a step in the right direction.
Bryan



This post was not intended to offend anybody, if it did I am sorry.

[redonkulousruntsracing]

I knew it came out wrong, yea most of us do have that much invested in our kids' quad and I can see where it would discourage new families to get into racing at this level. That's all I was saying, that the focus has been on the machine and not the kid. A beginner class would let newbies get a taste of the National experience and maybe that would draw more people in.

[EthansDad]

So quad59, here is the problem with that.

1. the 8 and under beginner will have 4 yr olds and 9 yr olds on the same track - why even bring out a 4-5 yr old? good chance to get hurt.

2. mixing displacement for age groups - a 8 and under up to 70cc will grow a gate full of 70s only. no point in having a 50.

3. also, with no "limited" type restrictions, you again could have a beginner show up with a built 70 and wipe the field - not fair again for the first timer.

2. the "top 5" move on idea - these would be classes based on AGE and BIKE. so lets say you have a 6 yr old get a top 5, now what? you make them run with the older kids, or now dad has to go out and buy a high end bike for the next class up?

Check out the AMAs set up for motor cycles. they have 4 stock classes for ages up to 8, three "70" classes, three "90" classes both based on age range, then a handful of schoolboy, supermini and girls only type classes.

something like this would give first timers a number of years or riding stock if they choose.

here is the link to the AMA doc, page 28 has the classes (per adobe's page #s).

http://www.ama-cycle.org/rulebooks/2010/AMARacing_rulebook10_Web_MX.pdf

[RCR_531]

This is our first year racing a mini Quad and I had plans on doing more National event then we have done. I talked with a couple people at the Dealer show about it and the first thing I was told is that I needed the National kit. This was going to be like 1800.00 for the motor and then another 1800.00 for shocks. Which I was surprised by because I had read the rules and they seemed to be pretty straight forward about being stock. I was even a little afraid because I had bought a used quad and had no idea what was stock or not. We made it out to Sunset Ridge for an event and I was surprised on little tech looked at the Quad. They just made sure the kill switch worked.

I club race and know that there is always going to be people to push the rules to limits but to have rules in place and not enforce them leaves the door wide open. I will say that everyone was very helpful in the pits because I have no idea about 2 strokes.

This is a National event so the kids will be pushed hard to preform. Tracks are normally a lot bigger then what the local races are and this made for some stress on my little one. I like the idea of bumping up the faster kids in the limited class. Right now you can have a kid that has never been on a gate next to 1 that has 3 years of racing. It goes back to that this is a National event and it is the best riders for all over the Country.

I also think that in the 4-6 year old class should get something even if they don't make the top ten. It doesn't need to be anything big and it could just say winner on it so it could be used at any event. It takes a lot for a little one to pull up to that gate and then go after it falls.

[RCR_531]

I also forgot about the kid actvity. The water balloon idea was good and getting the kids some fun time. It is a long Weekend for most when you put the travel time and sit around waiting for your turn on the track. We are going to try again at Red Bud to see if the sit time he has gotten this Summer has helped. Then will plan for next year.

[EthansDad]

This post was not intended to offend anybody, if it did I am sorry.

Bryan, the fact that you did not try to offend anyone offends me :devil:

[mushinracing]

if you had a regional how far would you expect to drive? how far is to far?

[Ryko racing]

avg drive 300 to 400 miles would be nice.

I think that the idea of no friday practice would help, i know my boss is about fed up with my 4 day weekends.

As far as classes go, i think the insurance providers also dictate the age and cc . ( at least i ahev been told that )

We raced sno x for many years and after the final moto they pulled the top 5 from the track right to tech and had the dads pop the heads, clutches, etc. ( if you dont stop you r out, also if you are caught cheating you are done for the year)

Amazing when we ran that series there was never a problem.
If you make a rule ENFORCE IT.

Scott, i went to the Hr National series had the right idea but it looks like not many riders.

I still think a true split series with the championship decided at Lorettas would be the easiest.( Troy and i laid out a plan over the winter but were shot down.)

[quad59]

4-5 hours travel time would work for regionals

[Full Throttle00]

Ryko racing posted: We raced sno x for many years and after the final moto they pulled the top 5 from the track right to tech and had the dads pop the heads, clutches, etc. ( if you dont stop you r out, also if you are caught cheating you are done for the year)

The tear down idea is great, but unless there is a secure clean area (secret squirrel stuff) and if it's muddy, this may make it difficult unless there is a way to clean the bike, motor before opening the top end for junk to fall in. (Snow has little to no effect)

0-7 hrs

I still like the IROC idea. :devil:

[CRBOGGAN]

4 TO 5 Hours, 2 day events, anything to cut cost. A more structured registration and keep it fun make it so the kids can watch the pros and proam.

[cik orange]

If you were to add more races to the national schedule (youth & amature) then you could break that into quadrants of (lets say) 6. Then you could hold 3 events per regional 2 of which you could have the pros attend 1 that could be a kids weekend (be creative).Then you could qualify by attending 2 of 3 events in your region that lets you have a bad weekend then you have regional champs and lets say top 5 get invited to Lorettas (that would truely make Lorettas our pinnacale event). Ok so 6 regions 3 races per region 1 final 19 total races 13 for pros. Just my 2 cents but we could do 4 races a year.

I also like the idea of a truely stock (engine) class. Maybe you could get with DRR and APEX to sponser engines for this class. This would surely boost up some new entries and get more people HOOKED into this sport. And they could police themselves buy trading engines with other riders (with a fee of coarse).

As far as tech every other form of racing has one maybe a random teardown in every class every weekend.

Just trying to keep the THINKING WHEEL turning

[quad59]

If you want to keep the cost down on the limited racing then add a buy out rule to those class's. A certain amount of cash buys any engine on the line and the requested has to be sold or risk DQ for the year. That will keep people from putting $ into a cheater motor.

[121dad]

Thats in the rules it called claiming

[mushinracing]

they excluded vintage and atvs from claiming rule

[trompen542]

Originally posted by mushinracing
i need more people that dont run nats reply on why they would start running We had to stop running nationals, because we are still paying off the 2007 debts. With the depression, we are having in mi. it isn't possible for us to run. I would also like to back the regional idea. it has worked for the bikes for years, and the pros could go to all of them, and the pro am's could have a split series. I know a lot of them are done for the season for lack of funds.
Tom @ kids on quads

[coffing918]

"As far as tech every other form of racing has one maybe a random teardown in every class every weekend"

best idea yet,

[mushinracing]

where would be great tracks to hold regional events? southwest northwest, south central, north east, south east, mid west. tracks must have plenty of spectator parking. and close to a big city

[john willhoite]

Cooperland, Oklahoma

Oak Hill, Texas

Myabe you could use existing series as qualifiers TQRA, SORP, JEEPS, NEATV etc...

[Full Throttle00]

Northwest tracks:
Spokane Extreme MX, WA
Straddleline, WA
Washougal, WA
Payette Idaho

[mushinracing]

should there be a pro class?

[Ryko racing]

Well first off the UNADILLA FOLKS GOT THE KIDS AGAIN. i WOULD HAVE HOPED AFTER LAST YEAR WHEN THEY MOVED THE KIDS OUT OF THE WAY AND MADE THEM WAIT FOR THE PROS TO PRACTICE, THEN SENT THEM OUT IN A RAINSTORM RESULTING IN ALL BUT 2 RACERS DNF ing. ( 18 motors x $ 1500 $27000)

Well at least Harv and the gang are consistant as I am rebuilding my engine now.

The only thing worse than last year is that this year after they made us wait, the PROS DECIDED NOT TO GO OUT IN THE MUD AND GET THEIR FREE GEAR DIRTY).

sO WHAT DO THEY DO SEND THE KIDS OUT TO DRY THE TRACK,
AT LEAST THIS YEAR I BLEW A FOUR STROKE SO IT WILL COST DOUBLE....

We dont need a DREAM SERIES,we just need a promoter that wants to take care of the customers. CSI is priority one in most business'

MAYBE ITS TIME FOR A LITTLE COMPETITION, USUALLY THAT MAKES A BUSINESS WORK HARDER TO KEEP ITS CUSTOMERS HAPPY......


I would even pay more to race if we were treated NICE......

[trompen542]

Originally posted by mushinracing
should there be a pro class?
yes, and a 250 mod, like they run out west, aftermarket chassis, and bike 4 stroke motor, it is getting big out west for the kids that are to small to ride the 400lb bikes of the oem.

[EthansDad]

for regional qualifier tracks in the SE, I'd vote mill creek. pretty central to all SE locations, and south enough the Florida crowd can come up to run.

As an alternate, I hear Durham town plantation (1.5 hr East of Atlanta) has built a national calibre track and is looking to host some bigger events. Mike the owner out there is awesome and very kid friendly. the facilities, are well a off roaders dream. plenty to do for all kids, big and small. might be worth checking out since that is very central to the SE. www.durhamtown.com

-EA

[gistmarrs]

In the southwest, I would vote for Glen Helen. My son loves this track.

[quadnana7]

In response do we need Pro's?
This is entirely my own opinion
YES YES YES YES YES YES AND DOUBLE YES
If you take the Pro's out of our races what do our youths have to look forward to when they get older. A lot of our youth look up to our Pro's and want to be just like them. Some even plan on making a career of racing ATV's . They have taken our Pro's out of our banquet and moved them to the motorcycle's banquet. They don't race with motorcycles they race with the ATV's and they should be at the ATVA banquet. Plus most importantly motorcycle riders don't like ATV's.

As for the regionals with qualifiers like the motorcycles do I think it is a great plan it has worked great for motorcycles should do the same for us. It would be a whole lot more affordable for us and you could actually go to as many as you could afford. If you have a bad weekend you can throw that one away and go to another one. That way you actually do get the best of the best and a lot of locals that are fantastic riders get a chance at a National title

[quadnana7]

In response do we need Pro's?
This is entirely my own opinion
YES YES YES YES YES YES AND DOUBLE YES
If you take the Pro's out of our races what do our youths have to look forward to when they get older. A lot of our youth look up to our Pro's and want to be just like them. Some even plan on making a career of racing ATV's . They have taken our Pro's out of our banquet and moved them to the motorcycle's banquet. They don't race with motorcycles they race with the ATV's and they should be at the ATVA banquet. Plus most importantly motorcycle riders don't like ATV's.

As for the regionals with qualifiers like the motorcycles do I think it is a great plan it has worked great for motorcycles should do the same for us. It would be a whole lot more affordable for us and you could actually go to as many as you could afford. If you have a bad weekend you can throw that one away and go to another one. That way you actually do get the best of the best and a lot of locals that are fantastic riders get a chance at a National title

[quadnana7]

In response do we need Pro's?
This is entirely my own opinion
YES YES YES YES YES YES AND DOUBLE YES
If you take the Pro's out of our races what do our youths have to look forward to when they get older. A lot of our youth look up to our Pro's and want to be just like them. Some even plan on making a career of racing ATV's . They have taken our Pro's out of our banquet and moved them to the motorcycle's banquet. They don't race with motorcycles they race with the ATV's and they should be at the ATVA banquet. Plus most importantly motorcycle riders don't like ATV's.

As for the regionals with qualifiers like the motorcycles do I think it is a great plan it has worked great for motorcycles should do the same for us. It would be a whole lot more affordable for us and you could actually go to as many as you could afford. If you have a bad weekend you can throw that one away and go to another one. That way you actually do get the best of the best and a lot of locals that are fantastic riders get a chance at a National title

[Pappy]

Scott, go check out a WORCS race...it seems they have been doing nothing but grow and i hardly ever hear many complaints. I know its in the wind that an East Coast WORCS Series has been considered...just needs a nudge:devil:

[Ride1Rob]

I know it has been stated before but the quads need exposure. I talked to a salesman here in Florida 2-3 years ago and he told me quads out sold bikes like 3 to 1 here then. So the market would surely be there if there was any exposure. I speak to people that ride atv's and they're not even aware of atv mx racing. :(

[gistmarrs]

Pappy,

You are right with WORCS. It is a great series. However, I have one huge complaint. They run practice on Fridays and race Saturday and Sunday. This makes it nearly impossible for a normal working person to be competitive. If they would change that to Saturday morning practice and Saturday afternoon and Sunday races, we would be racing that series instead of the ITP.

[zach R 7x]

I do not know much about the bikes regionals qualifiers.
Can someone explain how they work,how they pick tracks what do they consider a regional track? would the track have to be a national quality track ? I would assume that the track would have to be a AMA sanctuating track?

How and who would have to pick these tracks ? Seems to me there would have to be alot of local tracks to do this to get the #'s up at the championship race in the end. Just wondering .....Love the Idea ,this would make a national championship more viable for teams like mine.

Tim

[Pappy]

Originally posted by gistmarrs
Pappy,

You are right with WORCS. It is a great series. However, I have one huge complaint. They run practice on Fridays and race Saturday and Sunday. This makes it nearly impossible for a normal working person to be competitive. If they would change that to Saturday morning practice and Saturday afternoon and Sunday races, we would be racing that series instead of the ITP.

I think with a quad only venue your issue could be resolved. The 3 day format would bother me as well!

[raidernut]

Nobody makes you practice on friday. It is just open as an option, and it is only for the MX track, no off road. You can show up on Saturday and run another practice in the morning and call it good. We have options.

[RCR_531]

Byron is a great track in the Midwest. Sunset Ridge,Lincoln Trail Mx,Megacross and Joliet are some other tracks.

[mushinracing]

Originally posted by raidernut
Nobody makes you practice on friday. It is just open as an option, and it is only for the MX track, no off road. You can show up on Saturday and run another practice in the morning and call it good. We have options.

yeah its the same way at nats but no one is going to stand for someone else getting more track time than the next guy. which forces them to come friday

[Logan #34's Dad]

Mushin is right. If the other riders get more track time they have a better chance of doing better. They get more comfortable with where the next turn/jump is and the lap times improve. Friday practice is a must unfortunatley.
Take a look at how much faster the lap times are from Saturday to Sunday. equals track time.

[coffing918]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
Mushin is right. If the other riders get more track time they have a better chance of doing better. They get more comfortable with where the next turn/jump is and the lap times improve. Friday practice is a must unfortunatley.
Take a look at how much faster the lap times are from Saturday to Sunday. equals track time.

I 100% agree

[raidernut]

Yes i totally agree with that but our situation is a little different i guess because you are only allowed to practice the mx track on friday. You dont have access to the other 2 to 4 miles added to the race track until Saturday morning. The mx track is the easy part.

[coffing918]

we used to race xc and we never got any practice,, when the anouncer said 10 seconds that was it U went!

[LT80]

I still think 2 motos in 1 day.
I think most anything mechanical can be fixxed in a cpl hours.
Ask the classes that race all on 1 day. They love it.
I feel that the tracks could accomodate a practice for those that show up for Sundays race.

[jerkyboy]

One way to make the race weekend only 2 days is to run amature practice on Saturday and let the pros run both there
motos in between our practices. Then Sunday the amatures
run both motos. The pros can run 1 practice Friday evening.
Make there timed practice the first one in the morning on Saturday.

[mushinracing]

5 laps timed qualifer practice for am's for gate picks and lcq quailfiers sat morning then moto1 sat afternoon after practice. 1 site lap sun morning. pro and pro am practice fri evening timed quailfier. Sat moto 1 after all am racing is done and the same for moto #2 on sunday

full gates for both motos
less races on sat
pro and pro-ams race at the end of each day so am's and family can watch. since we pay the bills
i believe this would help more local turn out if ya dont qualify u go home sat afternoon and are not stuck at the track for the whole day or maybe weekend .

this is how i would do it, but ya see i want the sport to grow and the only way it is going to happen is to make it more affordable and when ya do that, the track loses money. they make 20-30 thousand just on fri practice and thrusdays gate fee and concession from fri. so this is the way i see it.

if you dont agree with me then please tell me where i got it wrong

[Logan #34's Dad]

You hit it on the head Scott, its all about makin money AND I understand that. I'm - by far - not a marketing guy but if costs come down more people will show up and the track and promoters make the same money.
We all run local races in one day with limited practice laps so there is no reason the Nationals can't be done similar. I'd like to be done on Saturday then stay the night to watch the Pro's and Pro-Am on Sunday. Talk about some killer Saturday night parties!
To model it kinda like the pro bikes - They could make the Pro races the main event and the Pro-Am like the 250 class. Heck, throw in the 450A and Woman's class in the mix for Sunday too. This would help with the time in-between races AND be less classes on Saturday for us so we could fit in our two motos in one day.
The only way the sport grows in my opinion is exposure. The AMA has the pull to get SPEED CHANNEL on board. Even if it has to be a branch of one of the shows like "on the edge" or something. If SPEED can air shows like mud drags, gocarts, lawn mower racing, boat racing, ect then they sure the heck can do our pro races. I'm SO tired of seeing monster jam! These pro riders deserve to be recognized.
I believe one issue may be that there are too many promoter groups involved with our sport. Get ONE promoter and let them promote the sport. If television exposes the sport the "big"manufacturers will stay and come back.

[mushinracing]

the tracks wouldlose money on fri practice. your not going to have 300 more riders a race by lowering the price. you may get get about 100 more riders locally and 50 that will run the series. the program that we know will not grow anything but debit. they just have a poor biz model for promoting the sport. there model is designed to make a profit off the riders alone. how many people do you think show up just to watch. its really not that many.lets say its 300 at 15 bucks at gate and they spend on average 35 more per person a the track (shirt,hotdog,etc) thats only 50 bucks total per head.well thats 15,000 bucks . not enough money to run the event. but if you had 3000 at 50 well that would be 150,000 bucks. you get the picture . most tracks cant park 3000 specs. so that right there tells you the future of the nats .OUR MONEY PAYS THE BILLS. now lets think about 3000 specs why would they come to one of are events? to set in the sun on a grassy knoll with no one serving beer and good food or cotton candy for the kids. we need to stop thinking about us and figure out what get the specs threw the gates. thats where it starts.
and rocky the funny thing is theres more people watching lawn mowers than atv motocross. dont hate the player ,hate the game

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Right on Rocky, just about every show we watch is on the SPEED channel, and they have everything on there, I watched ATV Ice Oval racing. I say get it on TV it will be seen and maybe people might come out to races and want to see it in person, it seems to work for the bikes. This year @Unadilla was my second AMA/ATVA quad national there and it's a joke as far as attendance goes. There wasnt anybody there. I have gone to the Bike National @ Unadilla for 10+ years as a spectator, and if your not there before 8am, your parking out in the ding-weeds and you won't even make it close to the fence to watch. It was a ghosttown at the quad race. Like many have said, ATV sales far out weigh Bike sales, but I would guess that maybe 25% of the population knows about ATV MX racing. I love putting my boys quad in the back of my truck and go somewhere, to practice at a local track or something, the number of people who ask me what it is or what kind is it, I have maybe come across 3 or 4 people who knew what ATVmotocross racing was. It's amazing how few people know it exists. It's sometimes hard to imagine it because for a lot of us, it's all we know.

[LT80]

"ATV sales far out weigh Bike sales"
Problem is..4x4's account for like 85% of the quad sales. :(

[redonkulousruntsracing]

LT80 - True dat...

[EthansDad]

so Scott, I think you are on to something there with growing the spectators. the more folks there, the more "economy" there is for the vendors/promoters/ etc to make money and lower the fees for the racers.

A few thoughts about that:

we race in small towns - these aren't NFL cities we go to, and there aren't a lot of folks to draw from that would be interested in coming out to "just watch"

I think we could learn a lot from county fairs in small towns. something for the kids to do. that brings families out.

we could do something as simple as contact a fair promoter to come out and set up on grounds during the race and promote the whole thing as a day out for the kids with rides/etc.

if we want to keep it more ATV/MX focused, then how about getting some fun activities for SPECTATOR kids to enjoy. build up a very-mini atv track and have a bunch of electric ATVs for them to ride, or have DRR or another company sponsor a test ride for kids on tuned down ATVs on a small side track (like can-am does for test rides). could even have some of the mini quad racers kids come over and help out. great way to get kids, and families hooked on racing.

better vendors all around are needed, but unless there is a "hook" to draw people, it won't matter. we really need something that our promoter group, or a co-promoter group can actually promote to the masses of the small towns we visit.

I hate to keep coming back to the fair thing, but we live in a small town in GA. when the fair comes to town, we know it. a few radio adds, a lot of paper sign-age on the roads we drive stuff like that, and its cheep to do. what draws us in to the fair is that we know our kids will have fun for 5+ hrs. come to think of it, I think I spend more on the fair (in terms of what I spend while I'm there, not travel, not race entry fees) than I do at a track. as much fun as racing is, from a 6-10yrs non-racing kids point of view, its not much fun to watch for hours on end. we need something else to draw a crowd. give the non-racer kids something to do for a day and the families will come.

-EA

[Pappy]

Just some food for thought.....

One series I work with has held at the exact same location for every round (5 I think)

First race, over 700 non race spectators showed up

The remaining rounds have been just race entries and their entourage, a loss of 700 spectators. The town came out and saw it and did not return even though it is a very family oriented and fun atmosphere.

There was nothing to keep those first group coming back, BUT, it does show that you can draw spectators. 700 doesnt sound like alot until you realize the entries were only 130 or so and a small town. A carnival type atmosphere is a must to draw in folks....a fair gate fee for spectators and a willingness for the riders to have some involvement with the spectators in some form beyond the racing.

As far as promotion, there isnt many forms left in the industry...those that are know their bread and butter doesnt lay in racing.....thats why the magazines dont promote much racing. Local news will get involved, local papers, local dealers BUT it takes a dedicated media person to keep ahead of that stuff.

The racers will come for the fun, the glory and the bucks, but I agree and have been stating it for years...you need the spectators so that the financial burden doesnt lay soley on the racers which is what we have and have had for many years.

Ive been to 13 rounds of Nationals this season so far, several regionals and locals and the spectator turn out is pretty poor at most every event. You find a way to fill the stands and you will find success.

Freestyle shows are huge
Other offroad or mechanized sports
Get the locals involved, they will come if they have a stake in it
Carnival/fair type events held in sync with the racing

The sky is the limit....a big task and kudos to anyone who can manage it all and make it work!

[mushinracing]

I would like to thank you for all your valuable input and i promise your voice will be heard by the people who call the shots. if they dont listen and make changes i will call on you to help me lead this sport in the right direction. remember this is our childrens future and we can control it. so lets keep our heads held high on our journey up this rugged mountain.
thank you,
Scott Ward

[Full Throttle00]

I agree with the Fair concept, you have to keep it simple, affordable, and have more to offer than watch a few kids go round and round in the dirt.

"A great Hill Billy caller will always bring the pigs to the fair":D

[redonkulousruntsracing]

Silly question, any one on here asking THEIR KIDS what they would want, because it's all about them we are just the Moms and Dads of the one s who need treir voice heard. I asked my son what he would like to see, and he told me " We need something to do when we aren't racing, the nationals are boring, you take me to far away places where none of my friends are and I dont have anything to do but play with my Monster Trucks, and that gets old fast"
There you have it straight from the mouth of a 6 year old, lets here what some KIDS think....

[Eric Johnston]

I finally took the time to read this whole thread and here is what resonates with me.
1, Drop friday morning practice and change it to Saturday only. Let the pros have friday for practice. I like to watch the pros but not while my kid and I are stuck baking in the sun for staging. Yoy could make up for the loss of practice by putting in a test strip on the grounds of all the national tracks. How many times have we sent our riders out for saturday or sunday practice because us mechanics
have made a clutch change or swapped tires etc.. A 200 yard jetting strip with staging lanes like the NHRA would eliminate the need for this.
2, More amenities for the spectators and participants.
Showers at all the tracks would be a big plus (I realize this is an expense and would pay a small fee for a hot shower)Also how hard would it be to get the word out to local service organizations about the need for booths with food or games at these races? NO fan wants to go to an underpromoted underserviced event and the casual racer doesn't either. Someone in the AMA has to have some marketing skill right?
My local tv station (30min from redbud)
will give 5 minutes on the morning show to a pie eating contest but never mentions a national race in thier backyard. The bikes got the entire sports report when they came to town.
How is joe sixpack badlands guy supposed to come watch when he doesn't know we are here. "The devils greatest trick is convincing the world he didnt exist"

[Eric Johnston]

Back again!

A novice race is a good idea also but there needs to be a limit on the mods that can be done. I tell the guys at work about what we do and they are gung ho about it until I bring up the price to field a competitive quad. A limited class is great but there is always "That guy" that figures the rules don't apply to them in a class like that. Maybe sponsor provided motors or some way to seal the top ends?
Anything to keep the dreaded porting tool monster from rearing its ugly head. Or a claim process for the top finishers.

[RCR_531]

All forms of sports are hurting this year from low turn out. I was surprised this winter when we went to the Summitt indoor race. It was in a small indoor fair building and on race day it was packed with people. It was cold and full of 2storke smoke but the people stayed for the whole event. I think that it was like 10 dollars per person. This was my son's first race weekend and the crowd was overwhlling for him at first. I had people call me while I was at the National event to see what type of vendors and Pro setup were there. I think that the Pros and Vendors are a big deal.

I like the Novice idea but even stock mini 50 are so different between brands. Some don't have oil injection and the big brands don't come close to the 3 main ones raced in the mini class.

It is sad to say but alot of the big crowds at big AMA events come out for the Party Weekend. Almost at all Bike events they have an adult camping area that is always packed with people. It has matter if it was dirt or road racing and event at most fairs that have good beer tents that is where the crowds are. This is a whole new headache to deal with thou.

[mushinracing]

i like the beer tent program! this is a must. hot showers should be the last thing a customer should worry about. take our money starve us with crap food, and make us sleep in sweaty draws. ya gotta love it

[RCR_531]

I have an outdoor shower on my camper that anyone could use but we won't be around until next year. I would like to figure out how to bring the pool but we can't carry a 1000 gallons of water.

There is a company called rent a shower and they bring a trailer that is a bath house.

[mushinracing]

what about other events at the race?