when to Helicoil the head studs?

[eotrx400ex]

i'm in the process of doin a 416 stage 2 HC with 11:1.. thinking about helicoil the head studs. Question's i have is do i need to use a specific style of helicoil? Also is it necessary to with a 11:1 comp?

[TRXRacer1]

Never. Heli-coiling head studs is negligently different then stock. I never did anything for my 416 and if you follow the proper torquing procedure you really shouldn't have to either. If you still want to re-anchor the studs you need something like brass or SS inserts to get a proper footprint (something your machine shop could easily make). Something with some meat.

[CJM]

Get heavy duty headstuds if you want, its not needed but just extra insurance.

GT Thunder did mine and was a pleasure to work with and had a fast turn around.

[eotrx400ex]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Never. Heli-coiling head studs is negligently different then stock. I never did anything for my 416 and if you follow the proper torquing procedure you really shouldn't have to either. If you still want to re-anchor the studs you need something like brass or SS inserts to get a proper footprint (something your machine shop could easily make). Something with some meat. thank you for the info!! i'll leave them how they are

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by CJM
Get heavy duty headstuds if you want, its not needed but just extra insurance.

GT Thunder did mine and was a pleasure to work with and had a fast turn around.
X2. I wouldn't spend the time and money to do a rebuild without getting the studs done. GTT uses oversized studs, but most of the added strength is in the installation procedure. They use a roll form tap to re-thread the cylinder for the new studs. That type of tap compresses the metal to form the threads instead of cutting material away. The result is more density in the threaded areas, which makes the metal stronger.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by eotrx400ex
thank you for the info!! i'll leave them how they are No problem! The studs are strong enough for the biggest builds you can do it's just that threading in the aluminum is a tad small and will not react well to over torquing like most DYI'ers end up doing. A roll form tap and "HD" studs are completely unessessary.

[CJM]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
No problem! The studs are strong enough for the biggest builds you can do it's just that threading in the aluminum is a tad small and will not react well to over torquing like most DYI'ers end up doing. A roll form tap and "HD" studs are completely unessessary.

Maybe unnecessary in your eyes, but its just added insurance in my book. One less thing that can go wrong and for the money they charge its not to bad.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by CJM
Maybe unnecessary in your eyes, but its just added insurance in my book. One less thing that can go wrong and for the money they charge its not to bad. I could start tossing the credentials around but trust me the HD studs are a rip if you have a decent machine shop. The studs them selves are more then that engine will ever need, it's all about the foot print. The roll form tap is the strongest way to make threads but how the threads are formed are not the problem here. GT Thunder is good at sales, that's all. You will never have any problem with the stock studs re-anchored in Brass or SS inserts. Unless the threads in the cylinder have already been abused with over torquing, a 416 like this will not be a problem for the stock set up.

[CJM]

I suppose if one was to retap the threads and use the roll form tap and some nice inserts on the stock studs it would be fine.

Like I said, be it a waste or not imho it was added insurance to my build and imho having worked on cars and had motor work done or done it myself it actually was rather cheap. In the end it was my choice, might to be for everyone.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by CJM
I suppose if one was to retap the threads and use the roll form tap and some nice inserts on the stock studs it would be fine.

Like I said, be it a waste or not imho it was added insurance to my build and imho having worked on cars and had motor work done or done it myself it actually was rather cheap. In the end it was my choice, might to be for everyone. Again the roll form tap is more sales crap. Not needed here. That's GT's way of trying to show their "value" in the sales pitch. I totally agree though that it is your choice but how many builds have you done without touching the studs? I've got 4 out there on stock threads. The only time I'd do inserts is with really high comp or BB. Sometimes "insurance" is code for "wallet lightener". Rebuilding the crank and replacing the valvetrain is insurance too but we don't all do that because for some reason we understand that you do those things when needed. Nothing personal buddy, just a pet peeve of mine how everyone is misinformed on the situation.

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Again the roll form tap is more sales crap. Not needed here. That's GT's way of trying to show their "value" in the sales pitch. I totally agree though that it is your choice but how many builds have you done without touching the studs? I've got 4 out there on stock threads. The only time I'd do inserts is with really high comp or BB. Sometimes "insurance" is code for "wallet lightener". Rebuilding the crank and replacing the valvetrain is insurance too but we don't all do that because for some reason we understand that you do those things when needed. Nothing personal buddy, just a pet peeve of mine how everyone is misinformed on the situation.
My blown head gasket would like to respectfully disagree. I'm sure others would back that sentiment. I'm sure you're the best machinst that ever lived and know the story behind every failure that has been posted here, but the numbers indicate more than just a couple of hillbillies over-torquing their studs. I've been an aircraft mechanic for almost 14 years, so I know how to operate a torque wrench. I'm sure there is more than one way to skin this cat, but slightly larger diameter, longer grip length studs in denser threads = stronger in my book. You can call what GTT does snake oil all you want. What I KNOW is that several years after having them fix my studs, I'm on the same head gasket. Are the stock studs strong enough? No question. The problem is that once the cylinder is drilled and tapped for them, there is no reworking the holes. You have to either install inserts or oversize and re-thread. GTT has a proven track record, and for the cost, I opted for the known versus the unknown -- a local machine shop.

[CJM]

^ Agreed.

Just cause it works for someone it may not work for everyone.

[TRXRacer1]

Sounds like your local machine shop botched it. If you search around you can find posts about how GTT has botched this job too. There are no guarantees in life but there are facts. Like the fact that as much as one preaches there will still be the misinformed.

[F-16Guy]

I didn't take it to a local machine shop, I sent it to GTT. They did a great job, and I have yet to have an issue. What I can't understand is why you would say that everyone that doesn't do what you would do is "misinformed". Like I said - there is more than one way to skin a cat. I have no doubt that inserts are an effective solution to the problem if done correctly. I also have no doubt (and evidence sitting in my garage) that GTT's way is also effective. Just because you disagree with another person's method doesn't mean that they're selling snake oil. I would rather pay a few extra dollars and send my cylinder to a shop that knows about this particular engine then send it to a random machine shop and hope that they do everything right. In the almost 9 years that I've been on this forum, I haven't heard anyone complain about GTT messing up their studs. I can't say that it's never happened, but I've never heard of any issues. Do it how ever you want, but don't tell people not to use a certain company just because they don't do it the way you would. If you can do it better and cheaper, then do it!

[TRXRacer1]

Misread the end of your last post, sorry about that but it does work in my favor. What you call "unknown" is exactly why you're not the best source for this argument. You've never done it and have no reference. It's been almost 15 yrs since the first time I've had inserts done on a performance build. It's simple and works and in most cases will save people money over silly oversized parts. The idea that this head needs larger studs or a roll form tap is GTT's snake oil but I don't think I've ever told anyone they shouldn't specifically use them. They're in sales, they should have a sales pitch. The problem is people like you think this is needed now. Anyone that thinks they need those parts (need being key) is indeed misinformed.

[F-16Guy]

My point is that it's two different approaches to the same problem. Both solve the issue, so you can't call what GTT does "snake oil". Inserts provide better holding power by presenting more surface area to grip the cylinder with. The GTT method does essentially the same thing with different studs that have a longer grip length and a larger OD coupled with threads that are formed instead of cut. Aside from using larger studs versus inserts, I fail to see how the two methods are substantially different. I'm all for people suggesting better, cheaper ways to do things, but to say that someone is ripping off customers or taking advantage of customers because you have a different opinion of how something should be done is wrong. If I had it to do again, I still wouldn't take my stuff to some random local machinist.

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
...will save people money over silly oversized parts...
That's exactly what a threaded insert is. It's an oversized part. A cheaper one, albiet, but an oversized part none the less.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
That's exactly what a threaded insert is. It's an oversized part. A cheaper one, albiet, but an oversized part none the less. You're just diggin' a deeper hole with comments like that. :rolleyes:

I thought you were smart enough to know the difference between reinforcing something to properly anchor the OEM parts and just bailing on them in lieu of some "oversized" replacement part that is unnecessary. With the inserts you're still at the OEM thread size.

[CJM]

I have an idea:

Let people do what they want, you dont wanna do it thats perfectly fine-but dont talk others out of doing it either.

Just cause it works for you dont mean it works for everyone..

Now everyone place nice :)

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
You're just diggin' a deeper hole with comments like that. :rolleyes:

I thought you were smart enough to know the difference between reinforcing something to properly anchor the OEM parts and just bailing on them in lieu of some "oversized" replacement part that is unnecessary. With the inserts you're still at the OEM thread size.
They accomplish the same thing. In order to install inserts into the existing stud holes, you must what?? drill and tap the holes to accept the inserts, right? Exactly. :rolleyes: There is no way to put a threaded bushing in a threaded hole that both have the same inner thread diameter. The original hole HAS to be oversized to allow the installation of the insert if you want to retain the OEM thread size and pitch, therefore, the insert IS oversized in the same way that an HD stud is oversized. They both make the damaged holes in the cylinder larger to effect their repair. The only difference is that a stud with oversized threads IS the repair, while an insert is a repair that allows for the re-use of the OEM stud.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
They accomplish the same thing.....

There is no way to put a threaded bushing in a threaded hole that both have the same inner thread diameter. So we both have some common sense, that's a good thing! The rest is just another unnecessary ending to a simple thread.

[eotrx400ex]

think i got a little confused with all this
other then using helicoils to repair stripped threads. doesn't placing the steal insert (the helicoil) into the aluminum also make for a stronger thread? which in turn a stronger anchoring?
i had a set of aluminum Edelbrock heads (S.B CHEVY) that had ALL the threaded areas helicioled...and no they wasn't stripped an repaired, i bought them new like that.. which is why i asked about using helicoils.

[TRXRacer1]

The biggest issue is one stud in particular and its the one right between the exhaust ports on this fine air cooled machine. I have nothing against heli-coils and use them myself but when you "need" to re-anchor those studs the tiny heli typically is a drop in the bucket. When I do inserts I go bigger and longer.

[eotrx400ex]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
The biggest issue is one stud in particular and its the one right between the exhaust ports on this fine air cooled machine. I have nothing against heli-coils and use them myself but when you "need" to re-anchor those studs the tiny heli typically is a drop in the bucket. When I do inserts I go bigger and longer. gotcha! think i'm still gonna keep them the way they are now:D