Interesting Read here

[troybilt]

Low emissions 2010 YZ250r. Using Microblue coated engine parts... able to run 200:1 ratios and dramtically increase horsepower, all else constant...

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/microblue-racing-sponsors-project-two-50-results-in-low-emission-yz250-two-stroke/

[TLR-Online]

Thats Neat!

[fearlessfred]

thats cool , i would be willing to try that

[jas250r]

i wonder what all is coated? piston skirt, rod bearing, main bearings, wrist pin. cylinder walls? to bad it doesn't give dyno numbers to compare. how much it cost? awesome!

[jcs003]

that is cool. i just inquired about having my piston, cylinder, rings and wrist pin as my motor is apart to do the top end.

talk about worth. no seizures and long periods before rebuilds.:D

[C41Xracer]

That was a good find troy, I wonder how expensive it is?

[troybilt]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
That was a good find troy, I wonder how expensive it is?

Good question, I'd like to find out. But at the moment I don't have a motor to tear down yet. But I will be keeping this in mind for the future. I know Formula one, use this kind of technology, so its been around for awhile.

I like the part that running 200:1, required them to go from a 178 main jet to 210 jet... crazy difference. Also the sound of the 2 stroke was deep and throaty... I love a good sounding 2 stroke and the throatier ones are the best IMO.

I bet with Neil, you could do some wild porting to really wake up the motor. All while decreasing emissions dramatically. 200:1 would be like a couple spoonfuls of oil in a gallon...

[C41Xracer]

I have a motor that needs tore down(want to cryo the gears and port cylinder) if anyone finds out prices post them up.

[fearlessfred]

the 250 motor was ran at 100 to 1 which is still incedible. im still trying to figure out in my head is why the increase in jet size,because by running less oil u have allready richened the mixture. maybe a better ring seal? some body please explain this. i know we have at least 1 rocket scientist on this forum

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
the 250 motor was ran at 100 to 1 which is still incedible. im still trying to figure out in my head is why the increase in jet size,because by running less oil u have allready richened the mixture. maybe a better ring seal? some body please explain this. i know we have at least 1 rocket scientist on this forum

you need to increase jet size because it will be more of a straight fuel mixture with less amounts of 2-cycle oil in it, which means it will burn faster, and cleaner, and the 200:1 mixture will still be doing some amounts of lubrication, fuel also does some little amounts of lubrication as well, so you will need to increase the volume of this 200:1 mixture for better lubrication and for the more efficient cleaner running/burning engine.
if you run your r at the out dated recomended 20:1 mixture with cheapo 2-cycle and then run it with a 50:1 fully synthetic 2-cycle mixture you will need to increase jetting. so this is basicly the same concept..
i am far from a rocket scientist but this is what i have experienced.

nice discovery troy, i would love to see someone use this technology on a 250r!!!

[jcs003]

im a mechanical engineer and what i can assume is the decrease in friction is allowing the motor to "pump" more air which is increasing the need for fuel. its hard to word it.

but usually if a motor is running more efficiently, the less fuel it will use.:confused:

[jcs003]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
you need to increase jet size because it will be more of a straight fuel mixture with less amounts of 2-cycle oil in it, which means it will burn faster, and cleaner, and the 200:1 mixture will still be doing some amounts of lubrication, fuel also does some little amounts of lubrication as well, so you will need to increase the volume of this 200:1 mixture for better lubrication and for the more efficient cleaner running/burning engine.
if you run your r at the out dated recomended 20:1 mixture with cheapo 2-cycle and then run it with a 50:1 fully synthetic 2-cycle mixture you will need to increase jetting. so this is basicly the same concept..
i am far from a rocket scientist but this is what i have experienced.

nice discovery troy, i would love to see someone use this technology on a 250r!!!

i actually think it would be the opposite. the oil in the mix leans out the fuel/air mix. .i.e. the more oil the less fuel. with less oil in the mix you would need a smaller jet to compensate.

[250rPRIDE]

just going from personal experieces from owning over 30 different 2-cycle bikes and quads, everytime i bought one running poorly because of poor tuning and people running tech2000 2-cycle oil from walmart, i have had to increase my main jet after a good carb cleaning and a fresh mixture of 92 octane and some synthetic ams oil... i have done it time and time again with no other mods or increase air volume, and i always have to bump up the jetting.. but what do i know i am just a back yard grease monkey, that likes to work on machines.. :D
thanks

[jcs003]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
just going from personal experieces from owning over 30 different 2-cycle bikes and quads, everytime i bought one running poorly because of poor tuning and people running tech2000 2-cycle oil from walmart, i have had to increase my main jet after a good carb cleaning and a fresh mixture of 92 octane and some synthetic ams oil... i have done it time and time again with no other mods or increase air volume, and i always have to bump up the jetting.. but what do i know i am just a back yard grease monkey, that likes to work on machines.. :D
thanks

sorry if i came off as arrogant. i just know that the oil/gas mix also plays a part in the air/gas mix, and when you use less oil you richen the air/fuel mix.

[CorvetteZ06]

great article!

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by jcs003
i actually think it would be the opposite. the oil in the mix leans out the fuel/air mix. .i.e. the more oil the less fuel. with less oil in the mix you would need a smaller jet to compensate.
altho i do like to argue with u ,but you are right on this one. the more oil the leaner the fuel mixture. if a main jet could pass one gallon of gas in an hour and u then added 10% oil u would only be passing 90% of a gallon in an hour .therefor if u went from 32 to 1 to 100 to 1 u have richend the mixture enough to require a smaller main jet, gas is not concidered a lubrucant what so ever. i think they must have made some physical change in the motor to require larger main jets.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
altho i do like to argue with u ,but you are right on this one. the more oil the leaner the fuel mixture. if a main jet could pass one gallon of gas in an hour and u then added 10% oil u would only be passing 90% of a gallon in an hour .therefor if u went from 32 to 1 to 100 to 1 u have richend the mixture enough to require a smaller main jet, gas is not concidered a lubrucant what so ever. i think they must have made some physical change in the motor to require larger main jets.

no worries fred. im not always clear in my responses. im trying to improve in that area.

but to simplify my earlier response. if the engine is revving faster due to the minimizied friction it will burn more fuel in a given cycle. for lack of better words.

[fearlessfred]

its all good man . i got over my my man period last week,and im not that sensetive. its all about learning and helping your brothers if u can,and my wording is often offensive but never meant to be so. besides all i really know is that i never new anything at all.but trying to change that

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
altho i do like to argue with u ,but you are right on this one. the more oil the leaner the fuel mixture. if a main jet could pass one gallon of gas in an hour and u then added 10% oil u would only be passing 90% of a gallon in an hour .therefor if u went from 32 to 1 to 100 to 1 u have richend the mixture enough to require a smaller main jet, gas is not concidered a lubrucant what so ever. i think they must have made some physical change in the motor to require larger main jets.

if a 2-cycle motor is running good on a 20:1 mixture and you would go to a 50:1 ratio i still say more jet is required. the fuel is burning cleaner and fast with less oil in it. so it needs more fuel. if your engine is running like a top and is jetted perfect with the best oil at 50:1.... well drain your carb and your tank mix up some standard 2-cycle oil at 20:1, what will you get? a rich running machine right...? well take the opposite of that example.. thats what we are talking about... i have seen it enough times.. i cant sit hear and argue about how and why, its just what i have seen,
thanks

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
the more oil the leaner the fuel mixture.

you also stated this which is basicly what i am saying..
you wanted to know why more jetting for 200:1 well you answered that it has LESS oil in the fuel mixture so it needs to be richer..

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
if a 2-cycle motor is running good on a 20:1 mixture and you would go to a 50:1 ratio i still say more jet is required. the fuel is burning cleaner and fast with less oil in it. so it needs more fuel. if your engine is running like a top and is jetted perfect with the best oil at 50:1.... well drain your carb and your tank mix up some standard 2-cycle oil at 20:1, what will you get? a rich running machine right...? well take the opposite of that example.. thats what we are talking about... i have seen it enough times.. i cant sit hear and argue about how and why, its just what i have seen,
thanks may be someone else can weigh in here ,because my experance is just the opposite of what you are saying,and i do know that a lot of people believe as u do .if u reduced the amount of fuel going thru the main jet by adding oil to it u have leaned it out

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
you also stated this which is basicly what i am saying..
you wanted to know why more jetting for 200:1 well you answered that it has LESS oil in the fuel mixture so it needs to be richer..
im gonna let this one go .i hope there is no hard feelings over a disagreement,there are none on my part, does any one else have an opinion

[250rPRIDE]

i would never get mad at anyone on any forum over a discussion, so no hard feelings at all.. i dont understand everything all of the time and it can be very hard to put things into word and have them interpreted the same way you wanted to state or express something..
like i said i was just going by what i have done and seen.. i try not to look to far into things when everything is working just fine, i let it ride...
thanks

[fearlessfred]

cool, and thanks for your opinion

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by troybilt
Low emissions 2010 YZ250r. Using Microblue coated engine parts... able to run 200:1 ratios and dramtically increase horsepower, all else constant...

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/microblue-racing-sponsors-project-two-50-results-in-low-emission-yz250-two-stroke/
sorry about hijacking your thread. i am very interested in this, if anybody comes up with any more info please post

[atvmxr]

okay "in theory" the ideal mixture is 15 parts air to one part fuel. (i know its really 14.7 in theory and more like 13 for tuning, but lets just say 15 for now).
if the fuel you are using is 20:1 fuel-oil mixture you have displaced 1/20 (really 1/21, but again lets keep round numbers here) of said fuel in the 15:1 air fuel mixture and fuel needs to added to compensate for the amount displaced by oil ~1/20 = 0.05 of fuel to get back to the ideal air-fuel ratio.

now at 50:1 you have displaced 1/50 of fuel in the air fuel mixture and need to add in 1/50 fuel which is 0.02

so increasing oil means you need to add fuel and decreasing oil needs to reduce fuel.

from what I recall on my blasters and TRXs, when I went from whatever the previous owner ran to 50:1 the motors had to be leaned out a little - like one or jet sizes -consistent with my theory above.

the only conjecture I can offer for 250rPride is perhaps a new or cleaned air filter occurred and thats why it needed to be richened? or the owner just had the jetting fubar in the first place?

[atvmxr]

for this yz i think what is going on is the motor is turning more rpms and that is what is driving the need for a larger main jet. it is really odd that it made such a huge change in the jetting.
either that or they have some how tweaked the vacuum of the motor and the carb isnt getting as strong of a signal... IDFK


more power is usally more efficient and thus less fuel. plus my theory above also says it needs less fuel.

[fearlessfred]

over my 25 years of riding, wrenching,racing and tuning,most of the people i have met, believed that by adding oil,they were richening the fuel mixture. it is just the opposite.i have helped many people jet there bikes and they were amazed that they had another 2000 rpm woth of stong horsepower left,that they were not using because they were so fat that it would not even rev the last 2000 rpm. it was like it was hitting the rev limiter and to my suprise, no one asked me to put it back the way it was before jetting properly. all this is with two strokes mostly 250rs.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by atvmxr
for this yz i think what is going on is the motor is turning more rpms and that is what is driving the need for a larger main jet. it is really odd that it made such a huge change in the jetting.
either that or they have some how tweaked the vacuum of the motor and the carb isnt getting as strong of a signal... IDFK


more power is usally more efficient and thus less fuel. plus my theory above also says it needs less fuel.
i definitly agree or maybe we are getting mixed up with modern day automotive motors with all there sensers and computer efi . the gm ls motors come to mind when i think of good horsepower and fuel economy

[jcs003]

Originally posted by atvmxr
for this yz i think what is going on is the motor is turning more rpms and that is what is driving the need for a larger main jet. it is really odd that it made such a huge change in the jetting.
either that or they have some how tweaked the vacuum of the motor and the carb isnt getting as strong of a signal... IDFK


more power is usally more efficient and thus less fuel. plus my theory above also says it needs less fuel.

this is basically what i have stated earlier. a motor works sort of like an air pump and if the engine is pumping more air it need more fuel to correct the ratio as was stated.

i hope that others can add to our theory.

[fearlessfred]

i think i got it figured out . less friction means less heat that inturn means lower operating temps and therefor needing more fuel. im going with that, so i can quit thinking about it

[fearlessfred]

875.00 for a suzuki rzm ceramic microblue bearing kit and thats all the ball bearings for motor and trans except the shift drum bearing which they will sell seperate

[jcs003]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
875.00 for a suzuki rzm ceramic microblue bearing kit and thats all the ball bearings for motor and trans except the shift drum bearing which they will sell seperate

i seen those prices. i emailed them to see how much for the top end. i am sure it would be good to just have the piston and rings coated.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by jcs003
i seen those prices. i emailed them to see how much for the top end. i am sure it would be good to just have the piston and rings coated. yea let us know what it cost

[jcs003]

some more info i came across. sorry if its redundant.

http://colbergtractor.com/microBlue.html

http://mngforce.typepad.com/nc450vdev/micro-blue-racing.html

[troybilt]

This microblue stuff seems very interesting to me.

As far as the jetting, in the article they claim the engine was "pumping" more air. Not sure, maybe better sealing since the microsurfaces form a more sealed surface that machining-oil-machining surfaces... ...and sorry I was reading the 200:1 on the leaf-blower, the YZ was mixed at 100:1. Although, I think you could go higher yet. They probably were being on the safe side. IMO.

Working from the top down, what would you coat?

Piston rings
Piston??
Sleeve
Crank/rod bearings
Crank-case bearings
transmission gears
Tranny bearings

Whatelse?

[jcs003]

shift drum.

shift drum bearing

water pump components. bearing impealer shaft...

sprockets and chain.

im sure a few clutch parts would also help free up power.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by troybilt
This microblue stuff seems very interesting to me.

As far as the jetting, in the article they claim the engine was "pumping" more air. Not sure, maybe better sealing since the microsurfaces form a more sealed surface that machining-oil-machining surfaces... ...and sorry I was reading the 200:1 on the leaf-blower, the YZ was mixed at 100:1. Although, I think you could go higher yet. They probably were being on the safe side. IMO.

Working from the top down, what would you coat?

Piston rings
Piston??
Sleeve
Crank/rod bearings
Crank-case bearings
transmission gears
Tranny bearings

Whatelse? definitly axle carrier bearings and not so sure about doing the cylinder and if it pumped more air there would be a stronger draw across the nosal and need less fuel and my idea of motor running cooler is crap to, because the out side air temp is what determines jetting

[jcs003]

just got a quote back and for the piston, cylinder, rings and wristpin to be coated and he said roughly $350. sounds like a good deal to me. now i just need the money.

[2-330s]

let's sum this up! more oil,less jetting you are slowing down the burn.less oil more fuel.THAT IS HOW IT WORKS!!!!:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: this is not rocket science.there is alot of things going on here.

[honda350r]

Reminds me of Slick 50 back in the 80s !

[C41Xracer]

Something else to add, in the article like troy said a few posts back the engine is getting more air. More air in = more fuel also.

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by 2-330s
let's sum this up! more oil,less jetting you are slowing down the burn.less oil more fuel.THAT IS HOW IT WORKS!!!!:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: this is not rocket science.there is alot of things going on here.

thanks so much!!! this is what i was saying. i am not a rocket scientist with a long equation to figure out my jetting, but i have some experience with jetting several 2-strokes, and this is the way it worked for me everytime...
like i said before i am not looking for a argument, i was just saying what i know worked for me, and i dont know very much:eek2: so i am always willing to liston and learn from others.
thanks

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 2-330s
let's sum this up! more oil,less jetting you are slowing down the burn.less oil more fuel.THAT IS HOW IT WORKS!!!!:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: this is not rocket science.there is alot of things going on here. so u are saying if u go from 32 to1 to 100 to1 u would need to increase the jetting

[250rPRIDE]

haaa he said
more oil less jetting!!!
less oil = more fuel.... which means more jetting...
which is the same thing i have been saying over and over....

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
haaa he said
more oil less jetting!!!
less oil = more fuel.... which means more jetting...
which is the same thing i have been saying over and over....
anybody that believes that should should read this artical . please read the whole artical http://airfoolers.com/?page_id=385

[250rPRIDE]

very interested mabe i am wrong.. idk he did state that it was all his opinion's etc...
thanks

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
very interested mabe i am wrong.. idk he did state that it was all his opinion's etc...
thanks
it was pretty interesting read . i went back to the microblue article and read the comments section and the answered alot of my questions. everyone interested in the product should read that. i dont think any of us working people will ever be able to use this tech. other than the bearings. i think there theory on the motor pumping more air is b.s. . a motor that pumps more air draws all of the air thru the carb and an increase in vacum draws more fuel thru the nozzle .the times that we need to increase jetting is when we have modded the motor so that the vacum has decreased. on a two stoke that would be mostly port timing changes.dont we all run larger jets on ported motors. they have created an almost perfectly sealed top end , by having a mirror finish on a chrome bore and rings that have 20 hours of machining to make the fit the bore ( no beak in period ). but the crank case is never perfectly sealed. the exhaust is not sealed.some of the vacum and crank case preasure can be lost by way of going between piston and cylinder wall out the exhaust . a film of oil is the only seal that prevents this,and they have all but removed it and therfor created a lower vacum and less of a draw, and needed to increase jetting. and before any body says it, i do know that exhaust preasure and scavanging has an effect on how much is leaked from crank case to exhaust .and last but not least ( this one for u 250rpride ) i believe if they went to 32 to 1 they would have to decrease jetting and make more horse power. this is mostly theory and i have nothing to prove any of this, fred.

[troybilt]

This is in the comments section and help explains some of it:

By JohnNicholas on June 11th, 2010 at 9:53 am

Hi Guys,

Lot’s of stuff we are just starting to let people know about, I am not at liberty to talk about everything at this time, but I’ll attempt to answer some questions.

First and foremost DO NOT run your machines at 100:1 Our machine has been run at 100:1 for over 4 hours without any noticeable wear.

The coating process we are using affects the metal at the molecular level, you can equate it to showering with soft water, you feel really slippery.

The coatings we are using are NOT available to the public at this time. There will be NO plans to do so UNTIL every single claim made has been tested under tortuous conditions and confirmed by independent testing.

At this time only the MicroBlue coated bearings are available to the general public.

The reason for the larger jet size is not due to any radical internal engine work, our test engine is mildly ported at this point.

The coating treatment breaks many rules of engine building, the one aspect I will share with you is that the bore is perfectly smooth… no cross hatching at all.

Before I tell you why, ask yourself a question, why are cross hatches cut into the cylinder wall? Ask 5 people you may get 6 different reasons!

Here is an analogy to help you along… if you are water skiing, what type of water will allow your skis to maintain contact with the water best, Choopy or smooth as glass?

The rings are matched perfectly under a microscope to ensure perfect fit ( this is currently a 20 hour process to get the rings just right) and when the engine goes together no break in time is required. That’s right no rings to “seat” just get on and go.

This process also improves the ability of the engine to pump air (isn’t an engine just an air pump after all?) Because of the tight seal of the rings air flow through the motor is increased, hence the need for larger jets.

Much of what we are doing is experimental in nature and breaks many of the paradigms of engine building. Again this will not be available to the public until it is tested and confirmed by a third party.

As to the claims of emissions, we tested the bike using a state of the art Gas Analyzer, before making any statements… has anyone else out there tested emissions on a two-stroke motocross bike using this type of equipment?

I am not here to convince anyone of these claims, just letting folks know what we are working on and working towards. Low emissions on a normally aspirated two-stroke.

For now you can come out to the races and cheer us on. Or maybe watch to see if the bike can hold up using 100:1 gas/oil mixture. I will say this as we move forward we will be experimenting with even leaner mixture ratios…

Actually it’s kind of funny when we mix the oil. Because we are using so little oil, we need to use a syringe!

[troybilt]

One more incase you missed this in the comments section:

By JohnNicholas on June 11th, 2010 at 10:26 am

Here is a much more in depth explanation from Craig at MicroBlue Racing.

You are correct that scavenging are always present and this is the source of the unburned hydrocarbons that all 2 strokes emit. And are in fact the part of the emissions that kills. However, the size of those particles are so small that in order to disperse in the atmosphere they need to “hitch a ride” on a particulate particle. So in a sense get rid of the human and you have stopped the spread of smallpox (only analogy I could think of!). The PM 2.5 refers to a particulate size in nanometers. It is this size that likes to embed in the lungs like asbestos and becomes the gift that keeps on giving.

Our research has shown that as we approach a 200:1 ratio the particulates are functionally eliminated. Bear in mind that this research has been carried out with very cheap leaf blowers, like the one in our website. With those, since they use something that resembles a piston and ring, the combustion efficiency is horrible. But the particulates are still eliminated. Last fall, in order to test the EPA 60 hr. durability test, I mixed up a pickle bucket with a 200:1 mixture of cheap Homelite oil, took it out to the barn, started it up on a Friday afternoon, put it in a box and let it run. I came back later that Sunday and it was still running, wide open. True story. Looking at the parts under a scope it was evident that there was no contact on either the big and small end of the rod. Considerable blow-by, but I expected that. But the particulates were still eliminated.

Regarding ring seal, the increase in power with richer mixtures most see is due to the oil filling the areas in the ring lands and bore. You see this because the rings are rarely flat and round. Wound steel, chrome faced rings tend to be dished and iron rings tend to be wavy. The first thing we do is check for this and correct that. The most important thing to understand about MicroBlue is it’s interaction with lubricants. Due to the two sulphur atoms present, wan a hydrocarbon comes in contact with that surface, the surface tension is greatly reduced, like soap in soft water. This does a few things. First and formost, we no longer have lubricant starved conditions, like in ring lands. Microwelding does not exist in our world. And we can run much tighter clearances. Put flat and round rings in, and you have increased air flow considerably. This also let’s us run chrome-smooth bores, since we have a much more uniform oil film which the rings actually float on. This eliminates the gas loss across the face of the ring that cross hatch creates and since the ring faces don’t touch the bore, there is no ring face wear. In our world that is.

The end result of all of this is a dramatic increase in total air flow. Typically 15% in two strokes and 20-25% in four strokes and diesels. I know this is an insane number but considering the the number of engine platforms we have worked with, this number has been surprisingly consistent. Thats how inefficient the piston/ring/cylinders are That is the reason for the increased jetting needed. If we need X% more fuel in a normally aspirated engine to get a tan plug, then you can only be moving that much more air.

Regarding jet sizing, Mikuni jet sizes represent flow in cc’s per min, I assumed this carb was the same. Am I incorrect on this? All we know is a 215 gives us the tan plug color. And percent wise, is consistent with what we have seen in the past. Does this info help?

[atvmxr]

hmm, this is odd that we have people with years of proof with opposite sides on the fuel-oil vs jetting issue...
we both cant be right, can we?

this isnt personal for me - Im thinking of the poor SOB thats new to the R and/or 2 strokes trying to learn and getting very conflicting information... :confused:

[honda350r]

Snake oil !

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by atvmxr
hmm, this is odd that we have people with years of proof with opposite sides on the fuel-oil vs jetting issue...
we both cant be right, can we?

this isnt personal for me - Im thinking of the poor SOB thats new to the R and/or 2 strokes trying to learn and getting very conflicting information... :confused: well we agree on that

[fearlessfred]

here is another article on the effects of oil to gas ratios on jetting
http://dirtbike.off-road.com/dirtbike/tech/two-stroke-gasoil-ratios-20502.html

[fearlessfred]

and another

http://www.macdizzy.com/oil2gas.htm

i would challange anyone to find an article or any publication stating otherwise

[jcs003]

Originally posted by fearlessfred
and another

http://www.macdizzy.com/oil2gas.htm

i would challange anyone to find an article or any publication stating otherwise

x2. good statement fred.

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by atvmxr
hmm, this is odd that we have people with years of proof with opposite sides on the fuel-oil vs jetting issue...
we both cant be right, can we?


That's why this subject is opinionated. We all know 2 strokes require oil for lubrication, finding the correct ratio and jetting, for your machine is all you need! :) The rest is bathroom reading material :macho

[regg187]

Originally posted by atvmxr
okay "in theory" the ideal mixture is 15 parts air to one part fuel. (i know its really 14.7 in theory and more like 13 for tuning, but lets just say 15 for now).
if the fuel you are using is 20:1 fuel-oil mixture you have displaced 1/20 (really 1/21, but again lets keep round numbers here) of said fuel in the 15:1 air fuel mixture and fuel needs to added to compensate for the amount displaced by oil ~1/20 = 0.05 of fuel to get back to the ideal air-fuel ratio.

now at 50:1 you have displaced 1/50 of fuel in the air fuel mixture and need to add in 1/50 fuel which is 0.02

so increasing oil means you need to add fuel and decreasing oil needs to reduce fuel.

from what I recall on my blasters and TRXs, when I went from whatever the previous owner ran to 50:1 the motors had to be leaned out a little - like one or jet sizes -consistent with my theory above.

the only conjecture I can offer for 250rPride is perhaps a new or cleaned air filter occurred and thats why it needed to be richened? or the owner just had the jetting fubar in the first place?

a couple things here. the motor has to have a "base " or starting point. so lets take your 20:1 and use you 15:1 af mix, now If I change myoil/gass to 50:1, from the initial 20:1. what have I done? lets use a drop as a fuel unit. in the drop of fuel that I now have in my 50:1 mix there is now more gasoline in there than there was in the previous drop (20:1). which by that fact alone means I have more gas the the AF mix, I no longer have 15:1. I now have 15:1.07(just a number for comparison) so in order for me to get back to the 15:1 I had I will have to decrease the fuel or increase the air,since I cant increase the air, I will have to install a smaller jet to let less fuel in.

thats just the physics of it. if as stated in here that people have had to increase there jet size, well there stuff was not right to begin with. not saying their motor didn't rip like raped apes. these motors will run just fine even if you don't reach optmum af mixture. but in these ratios it is 15parts air to 1 part fuel and 50 parts fuel to 1 part oil
.hope this makes sense to y'all

[gandgracing]

Haven't heard many of you talk about what brand of oil they were using. Good ole Amsoil. Thats why I use it. Good stuff.

[destey]

Originally posted by regg187
a couple things here. the motor has to have a "base " or starting point. so lets take your 20:1 and use you 15:1 af mix, now If I change myoil/gass to 50:1, from the initial 20:1. what have I done? lets use a drop as a fuel unit. in the drop of fuel that I now have in my 50:1 mix there is now more gasoline in there than there was in the previous drop (20:1). which by that fact alone means I have more gas the the AF mix, I no longer have 15:1. I now have 15:1.07(just a number for comparison) so in order for me to get back to the 15:1 I had I will have to decrease the fuel or increase the air,since I cant increase the air, I will have to install a smaller jet to let less fuel in.

thats just the physics of it. if as stated in here that people have had to increase there jet size, well there stuff was not right to begin with. not saying their motor didn't rip like raped apes. these motors will run just fine even if you don't reach optmum af mixture. but in these ratios it is 15parts air to 1 part fuel and 50 parts fuel to 1 part oil
.hope this makes sense to y'all

Exactly right.

[jon370r]

Originally posted by atvmxr
okay "in theory" the ideal mixture is 15 parts air to one part fuel. (i know its really 14.7 in theory and more like 13 for tuning, but lets just say 15 for now).
if the fuel you are using is 20:1 fuel-oil mixture you have displaced 1/20 (really 1/21, but again lets keep round numbers here) of said fuel in the 15:1 air fuel mixture and fuel needs to added to compensate for the amount displaced by oil ~1/20 = 0.05 of fuel to get back to the ideal air-fuel ratio.

now at 50:1 you have displaced 1/50 of fuel in the air fuel mixture and need to add in 1/50 fuel which is 0.02

so increasing oil means you need to add fuel and decreasing oil needs to reduce fuel.

from what I recall on my blasters and TRXs, when I went from whatever the previous owner ran to 50:1 the motors had to be leaned out a little - like one or jet sizes -consistent with my theory above.

the only conjecture I can offer for 250rPride is perhaps a new or cleaned air filter occurred and thats why it needed to be richened? or the owner just had the jetting fubar in the first place?


I agree with atvmxr and regg187. Every engine is an air pump, depending on CC's, porting, pipe, carb, filter and atmospheric pressure and conditions it will be tuned to and optimum air/fuel mixture (aprox. 14.7:1) throughout the RPM range regardless the internal friction. Less friction will equal more power to the ground but should have no impact on the actual flow of air/fuel in and exhaust gasses out. The oil used effects the fuel part of that ratio, more oil = less fuel = bigger jets to bring the fuel ratio back in line with the amount of air intake.
Please review the spinning bearing video and take note that the 2nd bearing that didn’t spin long is a double row axle bearing not a single that was shown as the1st demo. That’s like comparing apples to onions. By design it would have twice the friction and hence spin half as long to begin with even before coating. I would have to see the same exact bearing before and after coating. I’m sure this low friction coating works but some of their claims are stretched and yes Slick 50 come to mind as well as Split fire spark plugs. Everyone wants to be a millionaire.

[fearlessfred]

thats like comparing apples to onions. that is true in most of there testing. the made mild porting changes and then make claims of the motor pumping more air and a need for more jetting. even small changes in exhaust hieght would require more fuel and does not mean the motor is more efficant. as far as the bearings go,there only working with ceramic and that is not a true comparision. if there are any gains,i dont think its anything that most of use would pay for the small amount of gain,but i am keeping an open mind.i could have used u guys support on the oil air fuel argument early on and made this thread halve as long.and to the member that was on the other side of the argument,that stated that ( this is not rocket science) is must be for u because u dont get it.and to troy,sorry for messin up your thread

[troybilt]

You can increase airflow by providing a better seal, its like hold you're hand out of a moving car with your fingers spread vs. cupped. Also if you read the comments below the article they explain it in detail.

We use stuff like this on bearings in large off highway truck bearings... take if for what it's worth. Sounds expensive to me, but if it helps a YZ250R against the 4 pokers, any advantage would be worth it. I guess you'll need to make your own minds up! Enjoy the read none the less!

[fearlessfred]

yes i did read all that and more and posted on the site .my real point was that there not comparing apples to apples and also agree ( after a lot of thought ) that a better sealed top end could improve air flow, by means of less blowby past the rings and increased and less dulited fresh charge. with a cleaner charge,would that also create a need for more fuel? they stated that there was 20 hours just into just making the rings perfect,and then a perfect polished crome bore,makes me think that john q will not be able to afford this. i am hopeful that it does work,because none of us could have to much horsepower

[troybilt]

BOOM!

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/06/can-a-two-stroke-run-at-2001-fueloil-mixture/

[troybilt]

Here's the actual Prioject Two-50 website:

http://projecttwo50.com/