Dont Hate me guys!

[Dustin_Drews]

Next year I am planing on building a 450r up for XC racing and harescrambles not that I do not LOVE my 250r it has treated me VERY WELL this year so far! It just that I am self imployed and I do not have the time to scrounge for parts on ebay if I need something for my bike... Not to mention waiting for the seller to ship it plus buying used stuff always scares me.
But I would like to know a few things so I can compare the 2

First question, Is there any way that I can get a TRX450r to handle as well as my Laeger Narrow framed R with the CR 500 link in the rear?
If so what do I need to do the the 450r to get it to perform as well?
I was thinking Fox floats for the front an a fox rear in the back. With a long Travle link... I r
I would like to stay all Houser if I can since I am a dealer for them! But laeger is an option cause I am a dealer for them also... It is going to be a no holds bared build!
I guess what would you guys do it is between Honda and KTM I like the KTM reveres option! Plus the 525 should be plenty of power in stock form!
Give me some pointers... Or info recomendations please from the guys that have been in my shoes and made the swich to the DARK side! Not that I want to.... But I do not want to miss a race because of parts!
God Bless,
Dustin Drews

[troybilt]

I've got both, 450r and 250r. Both have Houser/Fox setups... and I love them both. My 250r is XC and my 450r is MX/Duner setup

I've got an 06 with 04/05 front end, better turning setup, than the 06+ fronts. For the rear, the 06+ stock swinger is pretty good. Run that with an aftermarket link is the best setup for the price. You can go Houser swinger, but you have to run a Houser linkage, which requires you to get a airbox lift to move it out of the way of the shock.

I personally don't have my rear end setup the way I want it yet, I have to do a little at a time. But I hear the Fox rear shock is not as good as some other options for rear shock. I think if you get one dialed in by somebody the rear shock is awesome, but some other rear shocks like PEP are better options... Just what has been told to me, FWIW. The floats are awesome, but plan to really learn and understand how to set them up or you won't be happy. Getting them valved for your setup is also a good idea. I have one set that is valved and one that isn't and there is a little difference, but I haven't rode them enough to really reap the benefits of the valving. Also, I should preface that I don't race and my setups are not testing in a racing enviroment... just being honest.

With that said, I hope you stick to the 250r. Everybody and their dog runs a 450r. I like seeing the one keeping the 250r alive. You could also probably build another complete 250r with maintenance costs of the 450r... LOL!! Sometimes the best things in life are worth THE WAIT!

[atvmxr]

well I dont hate you, but Im pretty baffled that somehow people are still believing the propaganda of the new 4 strokes as far as saving money and improved reliablity. we were just debating this on the zilla forum.
all I see on the track and on the forums is 450 motor after motor coming apart at high rpms and completely destroying the motor. guys with 3 year old 450s have sunk in a ton of $$ and rebuild the entire motor several times over. and yet here we are with 25 year old 250rs, most of which I would say have only had a complete rebuild 2-3 times, if that...

well anyway, good luck to you

[Jonny B]

I have to agree with you on the time and $$$ to find good parts for the 250r anymore. I love my 250r but its getting hard to find high wear items that cant be bought new from honda anymore. It is a sad fate for these quads when all you can find is used engine parts on ebay. And even parts on ebay someday are going to run dry...

I have ridden a 250r since 1993, back then I was 12 and found an 88 mutt that was chained to a tree down the rode from my house for $900. I rode that thing hard as most kids growing up in the sport did. It wasnt until 3 years ago I built my lobo xc from the ground up...never had the $$$ like that when I was younger to build a race quad like the lobo. I could not believe how nice an aftermarket r handled until I got her. Night and day from a stocker. The lobo is apart being rebuilt, which is not a rush project for me right now. It is slowly coming back together...

Then last year I decided to build a protrax banshee. I dont have much seat time on her but the chassis and suspension are SMOOTH...like a laeger protrax should be. Even with its narrow frame 250r geometry, it doesnt handle quite like an aftermarket 250r. The powerband of the banshee is different then a 250r and it weights a little more then a 250r (20 lbs). But it also has about 25 more horsepower the a 250r! I love the shee...but its not a lobo.:) The best part is banshee parts are available at the dealer...

As for the "Dark Side"....


This past winter I bought a leftover 2008 ktm 450xc atv from a dealer in Penn. I couldnt pass on the deal. Retail is over 9k and I was out the door at 5600. I wanted a "daily driver" atv that would keep hours low on the lobo and laeger...I want to keep them nice for a long time and riding them all the time tears them up. I have owned ktm 4 stroke dirt bikes since 2002. Also currently own a 2006 450 exc. These bikes have the same engine as the atv except tranny ratios. They have been bullet proof!!! Very easy valve adjustments ( unlike hondas unicam ), Over 200 hard hours on the exc and no rebuild. I am hoping the same is with the xc quad. I hear the ktm sx dual cam quad engine requires a racers budget to maintan and operate.

After riding 2 strokes forever, the ktm handling is different then both the lobo and laeger. It has a more aggressive riding possition then both. At first ride, the seat seems taller, the front hood and bars seems lower, and the pegs seem like they are positioned farther back. It requires you to lean and position your body more on the seat for hard corning and you notice the extra weight when entering a corner. There is a lot more engine braking when you let off the throttle which I dont care for. I use a lot of clutch in and out of corners to avoid the engine braking. Most people lug these motors out of corners but I like to clutch and shift alot...these are torque monsters though. The engines power is easily controled and will lift the wheels anytime. The ktms no link and suspension feel great over whoops. My ktm is set up for me, and once dialed, a very easy to ride and fast machine...just doesnt hold the thrill/fun factor as high as the 2 strokes but very competitive machines none the less.

[Dustin_Drews]

Trust me it would not be an issue if parts were 100% available 100% of the time...
I agree with the cost of keeping up with the 4 strokes it is expensive but being a WPS and LA sleeve dealer it drives cost down a bunch! On the 4 cycle parts...
I also like the idea of the no link shock! It takes out 3 linkage points plus dont the KTMs come standard with Ohlins is that correct? Them are pretty High end shocks correct? Also don't they come standard set up with Long travel front end set up? Meaning the way they are built you do not need to buy longer shocks like the hondas to get better performance?
But it seems like every one rides hondas is there a reason? I have heard of frames cracking on the Hondas is this an issue with the KTM?
Thanks for being understanding... I will ask more questions on the KTM also...
God Bless,
Dustin Drews
The

[MossboysRacing]

I know Duane Johnson, Pro GNCC, runs a fox podium rear with the texteria tech 2 piece link. my best friend and Racing buddy just bought his extra rear shock and link and i rode it recently. I weigh a little too much for what it is valved at, But man it was still awesome. It was on a stock 07 swinger, but you have to use a airbox riser. the 04-05 spindles and hubs are totally worth it, and the one thing you cant get for a 250r, a REKLUSE!!!

[troybilt]

Originally posted by MossboysRacing
I know Duane Johnson, Pro GNCC, runs a fox podium rear with the texteria tech 2 piece link. my best friend and Racing buddy just bought his extra rear shock and link and i rode it recently. I weigh a little too much for what it is valved at, But man it was still awesome. It was on a stock 07 swinger, but you have to use a airbox riser. the 04-05 spindles and hubs are totally worth it, and the one thing you cant get for a 250r, a REKLUSE!!!

You can get an autoclutch for the 250r, same as a Rekluse, made by EFM. I've already contacted them about converting my clutch. I was waiting to get a quick change cover, but since I switched to my other motor, I already have a quick change on that motor. stay tuned.

[Dustin_Drews]

I hear ya on the recluse... I also contacted emi but they only do the stock baskets... stock baskets leave much room for improvement. The basket not the work that they do!
I really see no need for the recluse on the 2 strokes... But i think it is a must on the 4 strokes they are so easy to kill unless you have them idling at 3 grand... Do to the short stroke they seem to be very prone to killing themselves.z
Plus i hate the engine braking that the 4 strokes have if i want to let off going over something i do not want to load up my suspension with engine torque. Sounds DUMB I know but I hardly ever kill my R and it seemed like i was always killing the 4 strokes... This is on bikes and quads!
Again thanks for the info...
God Bless,
Dustin Drews

[troybilt]

I also contacted emi but they only do the stock baskets... stock baskets leave much room for improvement. The basket not the work that they do!

You can't machine an aftermarket basket, that's why. They have hardened edges on the fingers. I think Rekluse has the baskets made.

Hinson BTL, gets rid of the engine braking. Pricey though.


Plus i hate the engine braking that the 4 strokes have if i want to let off going over something i do not want to load up my suspension with engine torque. Sounds DUMB I know but I hardly ever kill my R and it seemed like i was always killing the 4 strokes...

And you now want to go back to the 4 stroke?

[Dustin_Drews]

LOL... Doesent the recluse get ride of most of the enigne braking also?
I am not nocking the the 250r except for parts! Find me a place that stocks 100 % of the parts and we would not be having this conversation!
Thanks for the info!
God Bless,
Dustin Drews

[troybilt]

I would think so, its basically like pulling in the clutch lever at idle speed. But with the rpms above the engaging point it would be no different than a stock clutch.

I can understand the parts problem. Hopefully, solutions will be in place soon to offer 100% of the engine parts. Thankfully with an R, you don't need as many parts! And you can rebuild it in like 15 minutes. The SOHC is a pain in the arse.

Goodluck with the 4 stroke. I would stick with Honda 450r but that's just me.

I still want a 450r with a 250r motor, however, a custom designed frame. Maybe someday I'll fall into some money.

[Dustin_Drews]

You do not need to fall into any money... You need to use that BRAIN of yours! It seems to me like your a pretty smart fella on here... Plus being an engineer you should be able to find a source to make these parts! Then we can buy them from you... and you make money!
I hate to say it but what if we went to china for these parts? They make everything else dirt cheap!
Option to think about...
You like the 450 over the KTM Please tell me why?
God Bless,
Dustin Drews

[troybilt]

Originally posted by Dustin_Drews
You do not need to fall into any money... You need to use that BRAIN of yours! It seems to me like your a pretty smart fella on here... Plus being an engineer you should be able to find a source to make these parts! Then we can buy them from you... and you make money!
I hate to say it but what if we went to china for these parts? They make everything else dirt cheap!
Option to think about...
You like the 450 over the KTM Please tell me why?
God Bless,
Dustin Drews

If your refering to no-longer supported engine parts, designing them isn't the immediate problem. Having the capital (i.e. the funds) to purchase tooling (i.e. casting patterns, fixtures, etc...) is where I struggle with the whole thing. I've looked into it (briefly I might add), to reverse engineering the 250r motor. I know what casting molds cost, I design casted parts and fabricated stuff for a living.

Then say I did spend the time and money to redesign the left case for instance, and procured patterns, setup a supplier. All it takes is a wave of the perverbial wand of Honda and they can produce a batch or run of these themnselves. Then who would buy reversed engineered Honda parts when they can get the real deal from Honda? Sure you could make stuff better, or eliminate some of the inherit problems of the Honda, i.e. case saver for instance. If it was me and I had the opportunity to by a Chinese version of the left case and a genuine Honda left case I would buy Honda everytime.

I'm also sitting here with the software and the basic knowledge (anyway) to come up with this. It just takes a lot of "balls" to extend yourself financially for something that is right now just a hobby that you love.

I think there would be more demand for a Counter balanced CR 500 or 250r motor, that accepted those respective internal parts. Which can still be had from Honda. That is what I would like to work on, plus adapting that to directly bolt into a 250r and 450r chassis would be ideal in my opinion. Unlimited supply of chassis components, with updated CR internals. Maybe throw in a version with reverse gear for the trailriders.

Does anyone have a busted left case (case saver), but is in otherwise good condition? that you're not using and I could buy cheap... I've got a supplier I wouldn't mind sending that too just to get a better feel for the costs associated with a pattern of that complexity.