race gas

[Dathon Lawler]

so i run race gas. 110 oct. and i can tell a hellova difference between that and pump gas. anyone run anything higher than that? it does get a little on the warm side but i refuse to idle it unless i just fire it up. and cruising low mph's don't help either. though this is sportin the 416, i am into pushing the mechanical boundaries of my quad. i guess what i want to know is....has anyone toasted their motor trying to go higher? if so....what was the damage?

[Scro]

It all depends on what compression your motor is. The higher the compression, the higher the octane needs to be.

[drew416ex]

Going to higher octane wont make it run any better. The higher the octane, the slower it burns which is why it keeps the motor from predetonation. If you go too high for your application, it will hurt performance.

[fearlessfred]

using a higher octane than what is needed to prevent pinging and detonation is a waste of money and can hurt performance . the higher the octane,the slower more evenly the fuel burns. which is good to a point. but when the flame front starts chasing the piston down,instead of meeting it just as it starts its downward travel ,there is a loss in performance . are u running a colder plug

[Dathon Lawler]

no i'm running a stock plug. i guess i had assumed backwards. i thought the more the octane the faster it burned.

[Dathon Lawler]

guess 110 is about as good as it gets on the octanes.

[Scro]

Originally posted by Dathon Lawler
guess 110 is about as good as it gets on the octanes.

90% of the time, 110 is all you would need in a quad motor. Anything above 13:1, I always try to run 112. The pros run alot higher octane, but they are also running alot more compression in their motors.

[fearlessfred]

we all tend to wanna run on the safe side when it comes to our motors .a colder plug is always good with a motor thats pumped up ( higher compression) .

[jcs003]

and dont confuse high octane with race fuel. they sell race fuel in lower octanes too. its just better quality than pump. as a matter a fact they sell race fuel at the pump. sunoco has 110(cam2) i used it in my built warrior and 400ex motors.

[flyboy1294]

Originally posted by Scro
90% of the time, 110 is all you would need in a quad motor. Anything above 13:1, I always try to run 112. The pros run alot higher octane, but they are also running alot more compression in their motors.

He's right. I had a 13:1 setup in my engine when I bought it, and it needed 114 to run correctly.

[TRXRacer1]

Dathon what comp are you running? 110 is complete overkill for most 416's around here.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Dathon what comp are you running? 110 is complete overkill for most 416's around here.

416 has nothing to do with it. the compression ratio is what matters.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by jcs003
416 has nothing to do with it. the compression ratio is what matters. Actually comp ratio is just a factor. You're fighting heat. When I say most 416's around here it has everything to do with it. There is a very common blue print that many follow around here. Most never get over 11:1.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Actually comp ratio is just a factor. You're fighting heat. When I say most 416's around here it has everything to do with it. There is a very common blue print that many follow around here. Most never get over 11:1.

sorry, but compression ratio is directly coorelated to octane rating needed to prevent predetonation.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by jcs003
sorry, but compression ratio is directly coorelated to octane rating needed to prevent predetonation. That must be why you can run higher comp pistons in liquid cooled machines compared to air cooled with the same octane......... lmao! Seriously dude, you have no idea of what you speak.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
That must be why you can run higher comp pistons in liquid cooled machines compared to air cooled with the same octane......... lmao! Seriously dude, you have no idea of what you speak.

it has to do with head design and such. i hate to break it to you but you are the misinformed.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by jcs003
it has to do with head design and such. i hate to break it to you but you are the misinformed. Hahaha, you always just jump from one idea to the next when it doesn't work out for you?

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Hahaha, you always just jump from one idea to the next when it doesn't work out for you?

im done debating with a child. i hope you dont build your own engines.lmao

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by jcs003
im done debating with a child. i hope you dont build your own engines.lmao People like you who give out bad advice is like a cancer that just screws with poor unsuspecting posters in need of help. Confidence is misinformation is not a good thing. Compression ratios, head designs, ignition timing, cooling systems all contribute to one common thing....... heat. I know it sucks when you find out something you thought was right is in fact skewed or flat out wrong. Been there, I know. Maybe if we both stop acting like fools and you can actually learn something here.

[09RappySe]

Dynamic compression is what really matters(what the motor actually sees), not static compression, and lots of things affect dynamic compression...ie static piston compression ratio,combustion chamber shape/design, cam, head gasket thickness and so on, however I have found that if you are right on the edge, engine temp as well as humidity will affect it as well.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
People like you who give out bad advice is like a cancer that just screws with poor unsuspecting posters in need of help. Confidence is misinformation is not a good thing. Compression ratios, head designs, ignition timing, cooling systems all contribute to one common thing....... heat. I know it sucks when you find out something you thought was right is in fact skewed or flat out wrong. Been there, I know. Maybe if we both stop acting like fools and you can actually learn something here.

i guess i will return my degree in mechanical engineering cause you run off on a tangent to insult someone who may or may not have been clear or specific in a response. take it for what it is.

[drew416ex]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
That must be why you can run higher comp pistons in liquid cooled machines compared to air cooled with the same octane......... lmao! Seriously dude, you have no idea of what you speak.

I agree with this. This is why 450's with 12:1 can run 93 octane. They run cooler, have different timing curves, etc. It is just one factor that has to be considered.

[bherriman]

Ha ha come on now guys lol. You're both correct. Compression ratio has a direct effect on what octane fuel you need. So does engine heat. Think about it, what happens when you bump up compression? It creats higher cylinder pressures which causes slightly more friction and both those things equal more heat. Think of your basic deisel engine, everyone knows they have no ignition system for the fuel so how does it ignite? Very high compression ratios with very high cylinder pressures which like I said causes very high heat and boom there you go..So you're both right because you're both talking about the same thing.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by bherriman
Ha ha come on now guys. So you're both right because you're both talking about the same thing. Ah.. no. From my posts you should clearly know that I already have a handle on this. He on the other hand has taken a piece of the puzzle and misconstrued it to be the whole puzzle. Very confidently too.

I'll add too that the pieces of this puzzle can be canceled out. You can have a 12:1 comp piston run the same heat has a 10:1 in the same exact engine with just an ignition timing change and vice versa. Only when you put all these parts together to create a situation where you will have more heat and have exhausted all other options will you need more octane.

[bherriman]

I'm not trying to get into it with you like the other guy but what I manage to get out of your posts is octane rating is determined many many things ( timing, combustion chambers, compression ratios and ect) and I know you are very correct, but all the things you talk about deal with heat and how that heat stays in the cylinder in one way or another..correct? And he in his own little way is also talking about heat.. Like I said when you go upping your compression you create higher cylinder pressures you create more heat which in turn brings about the need for a higher octane to prevent predetonation of the fuel. So just because you up your C:R a couple points does NOT necessarily mean you need a higher octane.

[TRXRacer1]

Oh man, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to give you the impression I wanted a 3 way argument here. I just know he's still stuck on the rookie way of thinking and not understanding how these things all work together.

[bherriman]

Yea man I get it...Most people also don't realize what putting these high lift high duration cam shafts do to their compression ratios either. A little knowledge goes a long way, having the ability to listen to the people that have that knowledge and understand it will go even farther.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Dathon what comp are you running? 110 is complete overkill for most 416's around here.

x2

[CarGuy7a]

I used to run some VP Red 105 octane in my stock compression motor like once every other year. I used to get it from the local yamaha shop.

Did I notice a difference? Not really but it smelled great.

The VP Red said it was designed for stock compression up to 12:1 so I figured what the heck.

I stopped buying it when they kicked the price up to $45 50 bucks for a 5 gallon can.

[bherriman]

$50 bucks for 5 gallons of 105? Thats terribly expensive. I can get 114 for $6.50 a gallon around here.

[Wheelie]

I'll take E-85 over race gas any day of the week. 2.40/gal for 105 octane is hard to beat.

[bherriman]

How long does a tank of E-85 last?

[Wheelie]

Not very long. At the dunes I can go through a tank of fuel in 2 hours, trail riding a tank can last 3-3.5 hours depending on how tight the trails are.

[dan5]

Can you e-85 in a stock motor? Will it cause any damage or problems. And does it really help performance. haven't done any mods yet looking for something to give me a little boost until I do.

Thanx

[CarGuy7a]

Originally posted by bherriman
$50 bucks for 5 gallons of 105? Thats terribly expensive. I can get 114 for $6.50 a gallon around here.

No doubt. That Yamaha shop was the highest priced place ever. Which is why they went out of business.

[tayyo789]

You guys get 114 for $6.50???
112 is at least $8.00 a gallon here.

And as far the whole argument thing, theres so many factors that it really just comes down to what it all adds up to: heat and trying to get your gas to ignite at the perfect time in the stroke. Experiment with octanes and see which is just right

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by dan5
Can you e-85 in a stock motor? Will it cause any damage or problems. And does it really help performance. haven't done any mods yet looking for something to give me a little boost until I do.

Thanx

Yes you can run it in a stock motor. It will not damage anything or require any special parts. It reduces cylinder head temps and give a small boost in performance.

Do a search, there is a thread dedicated to the E-85 conversion. All I did was rejet and ride.

[Dathon Lawler]

ok, we have all seen the "LOL" abbreviation. but this time it's genuine!!! i have been busy for a little bit and look at the chaos!!!
well i never knew i would get the responses like i have. i was able to read all the posts just now and i think all my questions are answered. except....all i wanted was more power. now i don't need some lame a** repost "well just get a bigger motor" unless you got a seed to the money tree you wanna get rid of. i will continue to rock what i got on the lowest of budget. bherriman thanks for ringing the bell on that one. to answer one of the questions directed toward me.. i'm not quite sure of my compression. i have a 416 and whatever wiseco sent me 2 years ago is what i got. but "overkill" keep in mind i started this thread by saying i could notice a TON of power difference over pump gas. and thats why i still push high octane. not that you could ask, but ask anyone i ride with and they would tell you i ride faster and pull away on certain uphill power demanding sections. and when i didn't use it. it was lacking a little. i can't hop on mine on straight line and punch it after a cam swap and tell you it has a lot more power. but take me to that hairpin in the woods where i know i come out full throttle 2nd gear after a a swap and i start realizing more power in a real kind of way. 110 isn't overkill. OK so i went a little much on this reply. thanks to all. i read every one of them.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by tayyo789
You guys get 114 for $6.50???
112 is at least $8.00 a gallon here.

And as far the whole argument thing, theres so many factors that it really just comes down to what it all adds up to: heat and trying to get your gas to ignite at the perfect time in the stroke. Experiment with octanes and see which is just right

Yea I used to run 114 in my 250r and then my CRF250r and it ranged from $6.50 to $6.75. Now I just run good old 93 pump.

[bherriman]

Originally posted by Dathon Lawler
ok, we have all seen the "LOL" abbreviation. but this time it's genuine!!! i have been busy for a little bit and look at the chaos!!!
well i never knew i would get the responses like i have. i was able to read all the posts just now and i think all my questions are answered. except....all i wanted was more power. now i don't need some lame a** repost "well just get a bigger motor" unless you got a seed to the money tree you wanna get rid of. i will continue to rock what i got on the lowest of budget. bherriman thanks for ringing the bell on that one. to answer one of the questions directed toward me.. i'm not quite sure of my compression. i have a 416 and whatever wiseco sent me 2 years ago is what i got. but "overkill" keep in mind i started this thread by saying i could notice a TON of power difference over pump gas. and thats why i still push high octane. not that you could ask, but ask anyone i ride with and they would tell you i ride faster and pull away on certain uphill power demanding sections. and when i didn't use it. it was lacking a little. i can't hop on mine on straight line and punch it after a cam swap and tell you it has a lot more power. but take me to that hairpin in the woods where i know i come out full throttle 2nd gear after a a swap and i start realizing more power in a real kind of way. 110 isn't overkill. OK so i went a little much on this reply. thanks to all. i read every one of them.

I would guess wiseco sent you an 11:1 its probably the most popular 416 piston other than the JE and after you figure in head gasket thickness you're probably in the ball park of 10.5:1 to 10.8:1 compression (same thing I've got and I run 93 pump) but if you notice a big power gain then 110 is not hurting you at all.

try some u.42 or Q16 its race fuel look it up.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by Dathon Lawler
but "overkill" keep in mind i started this thread by saying i could notice a TON of power difference over pump gas. and thats why i still push high octane. Without a doubt you should be noticing a difference over pump gas. When I say overkill I'm talking $$$. It's highly unlikely you'd notice a difference between the 102 -110 range. If you can get 105 cheaper save yourself some money. An 11:1 400ex will not need that much and octane alone is not a power adder. You have to have a situation that needs it.

Most people that say they run higher comp builds fine on pump gas just don't know better. It is far better to have too much octane then not enough. There just comes a point when you're wasting money.



Originally posted by Wheelie
I'll take E-85 over race gas any day of the week. 2.40/gal for 105 octane is hard to beat. Exactly! It used to be bad enough that there was a ton of misinformation about the fuel floating around the web but now there are companies and magazines profiting off of this misinformation. I've been using it for over 3 yrs now with zero additives and despite my disgust towards the politics behind E85 it's the best fuel our sport has ever seen for the money.

$2.19 this morning for 105 octane, that's not bad at all.

[bherriman]

Around where I live 93 pump gas is about $2.70 to $2.80 a gallon. E-85 is $2.64 a gallon so to me the boost in octane you get from E-85 is not worth the amount of fuel you would burn using E-85 compared to 93, however if I could buy e-95 for the $2.20 you guys talk about I would fun it for sure.

[f4iracer]

The have Sunoco out at the track here, it's $8.00 for 110 and $8.75 for 112.

i can get it 110 LL from the airport for $6 a gallon. I can also get the same stuff from a race car shop here locally for around $6 a gallon.

[slightlybent47]

Here is the way I see it, Vp has a range of octane fuels from 87-120+ so you can get a race fuel with a low octane number and still get better performance just because race gas is better quality blended fuel. They take the time and the extra expense blend a better quality fuel and that is where the extra cost comes from and of course supply and demand. Pump gas can have a wide range in the octane and the additives it has in it depending on where you live so by running race fuel you can keep the consistency the same. I have a friend that deliverer’s fuel and he tells me that just because it sees one thing on the pump dose not mean that’s what you are getting. He will get his fuel from one vender and sell it to all his costumers regardless of who they are. Also if they are low on supper unleaded they will put regular in just to keep the pump running so you may not be getting 93 every time.
You can get race fuel in ether leaded or unleaded and oxygenated so you have more options as to what you can use.

Further more if you spend all the money to get more performance out of your bike, i.e built motor and then skimp on the most important aspect of your performance then why do anything at all.
For me the extra expense of race fuel is just part of racing, I want consistency, if my performance starts to change I don’t want to be wondering if it because of the fuel.
I think the most evident thing that can be said about race fuel “at least for me” is that I get a much better throttle response and that is very important when it comes to performance.

It amazes me how someone can be so concerned with performance and overlook other things like tire condition witch will have as much or more to do with it as anything else.


Strait from VP.
Octane: this dose nothing more than rate a fuels ability to resist detonation and/or preignition. Octane is rated in Research Octane Numbers (RON), Motor Octane Numbers (MON) and Pump Octane Numbers (R+M/2). A pump octane Number is the number you see on the yellow decal at gas stations, representing the average of the fuel’s RON and MON. VP relies on MON because the MON test more accurately simulates racing conditions. Don’t be fooled by high ROM or R+M/2 numbers. Many companies use these simply because they look higher and easier to come by due to the testing methods. Also, be aware that the ability of fuel to resist preignition is more than just a function of octane.

I’m not pointing fingers or calling anyone out, JMO

[slightlybent47]

And one more thing, if you are buying race fuel just because you like the smell then go to VP’s web site and they have several additives that will make your fuel smell like Banana or strawberry and even Grape, put all three in and you can smell like a real fruit loop!!!

[MidnightBlade]

klotz is the banana

[baker420ex]

i like the klotz additive. 1 oz raises 1 gallon of gas 2 and 1/2 points so it's pretty versatile. and car quest has 16 oz bottles for like $8 or $9.

[Wheelie]

Octane booster is garbage. If you want more octane, do it right and buy fuel, not the additive.

[baker420ex]

klotz is good stuff, you should try it. i'm not arguing its better than that $8/gallon race gas but its the best octane booster i have found so far. up here "super" is only 91! (and its over $3 a gallon) i'm all for machines modified to the hilt but if i needed to track down and buy expensive race gas just to go riding i would upgrade to a faster machine. just my 2 cents.

[togup]

I have no degree ,yall are saying the lower the octane rating the more volitile the fuel? That makes sense so why does every one want high octane fuel when their quad is not set up for it?

[09RappySe]

Originally posted by togup
I have no degree ,yall are saying the lower the octane rating the more volitile the fuel? That makes sense so why does every one want high octane fuel when their quad is not set up for it?

Because they think it will be or is faster, where in actually they are losing power and money.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by 09RappySe
Because they think it will be or is faster, where in actually they are losing power and money.
x2 . its what we are all brain washed to believe ,by the sellers of the products.you only need enough octane to prevent pinging and detonation ( plus a little for safty sake). and i think race fuel is great,but only as much octane as needed. i have been preaching this since being on this forum, and very few believe.most people are like cattle or sheep ,they just follow what everone else is doing,so that makes it right, im glad to see others that know the differance. fred

me to fred. me to. i run 110 race fuel in my set up. the 116 and Q16 does not help.

[fearlessfred]

Originally posted by ericcrip
me to fred. me to. i run 110 race fuel in my set up. the 116 and Q16 does not help. right on when u get old like me, and are fueling and repairing 7 quads u wont buy unneeded things. but do admit as a young man, buying any and everthing i could for my atv ( including higher octane fuel than needed). with that said, if it make u happy do it,and i love the smell of race . hopefully one of my friends that are running it will be in front of me ( not really)