shock travel question

[muddymess]

I have a set of 450r shocks that I have sent to GTT twice now. The issue im having is that according to GTT web site when the quad is 12 inches off the ground the front tires should be 1/2 inch off the ground. Well mine stay on the ground and i have to jack the quad up almost another inch before they even start to lift up. When i told laz about it the first time he said ship them back and he would correct it. well there still not right and they removed the preload collar in the process.

Should I make a pissed off phone call monday or is this something thats expected since there 450r shocks and theres no way to fix it.

[cdrookie]

IMO, if they work good i could care less if they do what it says on a web site.

[muddymess]

well im not a shock expert and i have no clue what the longer drop will effect. I just paid good money to have them set up just right.

You wouldn't pay the same price for a new car with a scratch down the side as you would for one without would you.

[Honda 250r 001]

im guessing that was just an estimate because they didnt know what a arms or spindles you had on your 250r.

I personally wouldnt worry about it. If you send them back. there just going to shorten them up, and they will have less shaft travel than before. which = harder to tune, more likely to bottom out. etc etc.

[muddymess]

they knew i had stock a-arms. not only is it part of the form you have to fill out i told them this in the email when I first asked about the shock droop

[atvmxr]

so they have more travel than advertised and you are upset? I must be missing something...

[muddymess]

"If you have too much down travel of the front wheels - your quad will roll to much in the corners - the front end will come up to high in the front when accelerating giving you poor steering control of you quad since it is transferring too much weight to the rear tires."

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by muddymess
"If you have too much down travel of the front wheels - your quad will roll to much in the corners - the front end will come up to high in the front when accelerating giving you poor steering control of you quad since it is transferring too much weight to the rear tires."

did they tell you how long the shocks were suppose to be to make the quad set at correct heigth?

[muddymess]

no but changing the shock length was part of the service i paid for.

[dustin_j]

I would call Laz again. Do the front tires actually measure what's printed on the side (this may be the disconnect)? Why not take the measurements for him since you have the quad and setup in front of you? Just follow his "shock setup" article.

Remember, it's not all about maximum travel, it's about maximum "usable" travel.

[muddymess]

i did fallow the shock setup article and gave him all the measurements. that's when he told me to send them back the first time.

[dustin_j]

Well that's weird, doesn't seem like it'd be real hard for him if you gave him the measurements:confused: . Could you tell if he changed the length at all the second time around? Might be worth calling him to see what's going on. I applaud you for taking the measurements to ensure your setup will work correctly; most people are too lazy to do this and end up with a compromised setup.

[muddymess]

yea i know he shortened them some. before when i was doing the measurements i would have to jack the quad up to over 13 7/8 to get the front to start lifting up now its like 13 1/4. Plus i know he worked on them because the p reload collar was removed. thats what was making me think he just isnt able to get the correct setup with theses shocks.

[dustin_j]

Mind posting a pic of how the shocks look now? Are you saying he had to remove the preload collar since the stacked length of the springs is too long? Do you mind posting some of your measurements; what is your leverage ratio?

[muddymess]

ill try and take some pics if I go to the garage today.

But yea he removed the bottom of the 2 adjustment collars

Here is a pic of the first time i got them and you can see the collars are still there. Iv tried emailing him about the weird spacer on the rear shock too but he only replys to 1 out of 3 emails i send him.
http://i49.tinypic.com/u0jz9.jpg

[dustin_j]

I believe the spacer on the rear shock is there to adapt to the larger inner diameter and shorter overall length spring. The collar keeps the spring from having play agains the seat, and keeps you in the middle of your preload threads.

I'm thinking the springs are too long for your short shock length, so he's running out of options. Do you know what spring rates are on there? You could probably use a shorter 2" main spring (instead of 1.875 or whatever), but you'd need more adapters to prevent slop on your shocks. Maybe you could suggest this to him, but I'd think he knows this already.

I've heard Laz REALLY knows his stuff, but he isn't the most personable person. Not sure if a phone call would be more effective... Do your ball joints bind before the shocks are fully extended? I would think they would.

[muddymess]

there no where near binding up. I don't know the exact measurement of how far the arms drop but i know from when i just took the old shocks off that they had a about 6 more inches of drop then the ones gtt did.

[dustin_j]

What tires are you using? Do your a-arms bind before full bottom out (frame on a 2x4)? I'm surprised there's that much more down travel available. I'll try to help, could you post all the info you gave GTT when you sent them in? Any other info would help also. Sounds like a heck of a predicament:huh

[muddymess]

I'm running 21" Dunlop Quadmax sports.

ill have to retake the measurements but it will have to wait till after this weeks race. I'm in a points race and don't feel like trying to fight with worn out shocks again.

The measurements that i still have here is that the bike was 13 7/8th inches off the ground before the tires started to lift which made it a full 14 3/8th to get the 1/2 gap that's was recommended.

I asked him about the rear droop too but didn't get an answer on that either but it was 15 1/8th inches before they started to lift up.

I don't have the measurements for the drop here but as a rough example this picture of the shocks off show pretty close to where the front bottoms out now and there not binding.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs324.ash1/28363_392777959013_504119013_3925594_6941348_n.jpg

[dustin_j]

I'm impressed that the stock 250r a-arms allow for that much travel! The most important thing before riding on a set of shocks is to make sure your ball joints don't bind through the travel of the shock; in other words, your shocks extended and compressed lengths stop travel, not your ball joints or frame. Next, you'd like your quad to stay close to level when fully extended and bottomed out. It almost seems like you'd have been better with the longer front shocks or a shorter rear. Try them out at the race this weekend and see what you think.

Make sure you do a little setup before the race. Set your ride height based on race sag on the rear shock (40 - 50% of your travel is race sag). 40 will give you more bottoming resistance, but a higher ride height, etc. Then set your preload on the front shock springs so the frame height in the front (behind frame rake) is .25" higher than the rear (by footpegs).

Now your crossover gap. With you on the bike, have someone measure your crossover gap on the top spring. There should be spacers with your setup to adjust this gap. You want it 1/8" to 3/8"; 1/8" for less body roll (weight transfer while turning).

Please respond after your race with your thoughts and some of your measurements if you don't mind.

[muddymess]

well the ride height looks good and race sag was good before I changed out the dog bone for a longer one.

The thing is that since i don't have preload collars I didn't get exact measurements because its not like i can change it if i wanted too.

[dustin_j]

You'll want to check your race sag if you changed your dog bone, since it'll affect your progression. I'd really be interested to see how your shocks look now. What is holding the top spring on if it isn't a preload collar? It has to be threaded to hold the springs on, right? Or do you mean he removed one of the two collars (the jam collar)? If you had one collar to adjust preload, you may be able to loc-tite it for the race.

[muddymess]

http://i48.tinypic.com/15r19qr.jpg

[dustin_j]

I follow now; you'd better get your other collars back in case you need them later. Do you need to add any preload to the front? If you needed more than 1/8" then you'd have room for the other collars, haha. Not sure if loctite would hold hold your preload with so few threads. I'll be interested to hear how they work this weekend; go get em!

[muddymess]

he sent them back in the box so i still have them.

iv been trying to figure out a way to get my rear skid plate to fit with this longer dog bone. right now i have spacers on the front but it looks like as soon as i hit mud ill turn into a dozer.

[dustin_j]

How did the shocks work?

For the skid plate, you may want to just cut out the linkage box; otherwise, keep using spacers, or lower the linkage box if you can weld aluminum. Not sure if this helps.

[muddymess]

The shocks worked grate or at least I thought they did. Iv been running on blown works so anything would feel a lot better to me. Everything did seem to go pretty well though. I still only placed 4th but I'm sure me being the on the back was partly to blame.

I actually did some last minute redneck rigging and cut then bent the linkage box down then used a small piece of aluminum to fill the the gap. I only used a brazing rod but it worked out until I can take it to someone to have it welded. We had to run threw a swamp so im really glad I didn't leave it spaced down in the front because you basically just gunned it and slid across the mud.

[dustin_j]

Good deal, do you plan to continue tweaking/measuring, or are you going to leave it?

[muddymess]

probably just going to leave it. Its not like I am so good of a rider that the sag is going to throw me off that much. Plus i got a laeger frame and some other new toys that will take up my time.

I actually got some ohlin shocks in a box of stuff but one has a bent shaft and im not sure if it would be worth the money to try and fix.

[dustin_j]

I saw those in your picture. If you have to pay to have them rebuilt and for springs, they may end up costing you more than they are worth.

What are extended and compressed lengths on them? They didn't look like they had any adjustments, correct? What would you like to get out of them?

[muddymess]

other then the fact there ohlins and one has bent shaft i really dont know anything about them. They kind of got pushed to the bottom of pile while I try and sort threw the things I want to use.

I haven't got to the point of selling anything i got yet. Probably wont ask much if I do sell them.

[dustin_j]

Well if you decide you want to clean them out, or want help working on them please let me know.

Thanks,
Dustin