How to combat 4stroke rhetoric

[All250R]

http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/04/handicapping-and-the-four-stroke/

[Fear250r]

Good stuff right there!!

[jcs003]

i always use a similiar argument but the word,"handicapped" would set a basis.

[witech]

Its about time to eliminate the displacement based classes and just match them up based on performance. Im sure when the electric bikes take off you will see it.

[troybilt]

Originally posted by witech
Its about time to eliminate the displacement based classes and just match them up based on performance. Im sure when the electric bikes take off you will see it.

Funny you mention it. We will see lightweight competitive electric bikes within the next 5-10 years. Konion batteries, Agni motors, etc... how bout 90 hp at the push of a button... :devil: ...still a future dream project of mine...

[witech]

http://www.gizmag.com/roehr-set-to-unveil-96-bhp-electric-sports-motorcycle/13702/
The bikes are already here. If they have a 96hp /150mile range setup already Id say its time to get these into a quad.

[troybilt]

Yep, but I meant quad... and yes electric dirt bikes are already here too. No high performance electric quads yet that've seen though. 96 Hp in a quad would be sweet...

http://www.zeromotorcycles.com/zero-mx/index.php

http://hellforleathermagazine.com/2009/02/ktm-commits-to-2010-mass-produ.html

http://www.evdrive.com/Emoto_project/moto_project.html

sorry to digress... thought these were interesting websites about electric motocross bikes...

The 2 stroke is coming back...

[250Renvy]

Thanks for sharing Troy - you always have great links.

I would love an electric quad right now. At least for the places where people don't want you. I could ride in some old places and they'd never hear me :)


Do you guys suspect some day it'll be 2-stroke vs 4-stroke vs electric?

[troybilt]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Thanks for sharing Troy - you always have great links.

I would love an electric quad right now. At least for the places where people don't want you. I could ride in some old places and they'd never hear me :)


Do you guys suspect some day it'll be 2-stroke vs 4-stroke vs electric?

Thanks Kevin, I've got a hole crap-load of electric bike links...

You're all going to laugh, but I originally bought my 450r to strip it down and sell the motor and try and build a bad-*** electric quad... I was making good progress on my research until I discovered how much it was going to cost a privateer to build the LiPo4 batteries.... ...in the realm of $6,000. In which, I don't have those kinds of funds to throw at something like this unfortunately. At the rate I was coming up with ideas, I was finding new websites/links of manufacturers working on the same ideas... disheartening when you have a great idea but lack the funds...

My goal was to have a quad that could run at MX speed/Loads producing 60hp for 1.5hrs... which is a lot, looking back. Rarely, unless you are a strictly competitive racer to you run for that long at those power requirements. Oddly enough, the technology is there for the power storage, but pricey. State of the Art Kokam Lithium Polymer batteries, not openly sold to the public yet... can do just what what I was wanting. These batteries are the size of a CD disc, that you stack and store gobs of Amp-hrs...

I ABSOLUTELY think we will see a mixture of electric/2 stroke/4 stroke bikes/quads in the "not-so" distant future...

[Lasher]

NEATV rules.... (directly quoted from 2010 rule book)

201cc-450cc maximum 2 stroke and 4 stroke. All engines used in ATV competition must be production model ATV engines or single cylinder production model motorcycle engines available for sale to the general public. Custom frames are allowed.

That's right. I can run up to 450cc 2 stroke motor. Equal displacement...

Just another reason why NEATV is the best series in the country...

[chevota84]

My favorite one is when they tell me how much more reliable the four strokes are. If you compare hp to cc's a newer 250cc dirtbike is 50 ish hp(5cc per hp) and a 450 bike is 50ish hp (9cc per hp) get the 450 up to 90hp (5cc per hp) and we will see how reliable it is!

[All250R]

Originally posted by chevota84
My favorite one is when they tell me how much more reliable the four strokes are. If you compare hp to cc's a newer 250cc dirtbike is 50 ish hp(5cc per hp) and a 450 bike is 50ish hp (9cc per hp) get the 450 up to 90hp (5cc per hp) and we will see how reliable it is!
Ya, modern, technologically advanced engines. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt. lol

[troybilt]

When is someone going to put a power-valved oribital fuel injected 450cc counter-balanced 2 stroke motor in a trx, and put this debate to rest? ...all over but the crying... :D

[sangheraent]

if you guys go to the can-am website and see some of the videos on the Rotax motors these things would kill in a quad. there far more advanced then what were running now.

[witech]

Originally posted by 250Renvy
Thanks for sharing Troy - you always have great links.

I would love an electric quad right now. At least for the places where people don't want you. I could ride in some old places and they'd never hear me :)


Do you guys suspect some day it'll be 2-stroke vs 4-stroke vs electric?

It seems they will dominate with instant torque but do they make small 50 to 60 hp motors yet? I imagine they would need cooling. 100 foot pounds of torque may get you off the line but it will need horsepower once you get going. What do they have out there one the bikes they are running now? The ones Ive seen so far are around 20 to 30hp. Even being 100 pounds lighter than any gas bike that equates to only like 12hp less needed .
Find any links to parts or power systems for the do it yourselfer?

[troybilt]

Originally posted by witech
It seems they will dominate with instant torque but do they make small 50 to 60 hp motors yet? I imagine they would need cooling. 100 foot pounds of torque may get you off the line but it will need horsepower once you get going. What do they have out there one the bikes they are running now? The ones Ive seen so far are around 20 to 30hp. Even being 100 pounds lighter than any gas bike that equates to only like 12hp less needed .
Find any links to parts or power systems for the do it yourselfer?

Enter Agni Motors...

http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=47

They run to the tune $1200 ea... one of the best motors for the application available today...

These are 93% efficient and you run dual motors, vs 1. still lighter and smaller than a IC engine. Depending on the motor depends whether they need external cooling or not. Most don't. Also electric motor HP does not crossover to IC engine Hp per'se... you have steady state hp, and instantaneous Hp, ...which are different. Torque is instant, not build up over rpm like IC engines, and doesn't fade with speed.

But if it were that easy it'd be done by now. No, the challenge is BMS, or VMS, which is battery management system or sometimes called voltage management system. That gets very complicated and extremely important with LiPO4 batteries. They will explode if they are overcharged or explode if the voltage is dropped too fast. However, they do use these batteries in your every day run of the mill Dewalt drill. In fact, you can take apart the dewalt battery packs and use the A123 batteries to build your own battery system, you will need in the neighborhood of 60 battery packs at about 100 bucks a pop...

Next challenge is the Agni motors are rated at 12hp continuous at 60v, most run these in high performance apps in the 100+ voltage, that's where you really start building hp with electricity...

If you don't believe me that electric bikes are fast, check this out:

http://www.killacycle.com/2009/09/30/the-fastest-ev-on-the-dragstrip-again-7864-169-mph/

[troybilt]

Originally posted by witech
Find any links to parts or power systems for the do it yourselfer?

I've got TONS of links of EV research information. Not sure where to start.

Best forum that I've found to start your research:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=21

...most are on my work computer.

http://www.electricmotorsport.com/store/ems_ev_parts.php

Agni motors, I think are only sold thru Agni which is in the UK.

[witech]

Sweet . I saw my first glimpse of where electric power is going at some RC car races a while back. The runtime and power of the lipo bats and brushless motors put everything including the gas trucks to shame. Scaling up and lower prices seem to be happening very quickly.
Thanks

[All250R]

Originally posted by troybilt
When is someone going to put a power-valved oribital fuel injected 450cc counter-balanced 2 stroke motor in a trx, and put this debate to rest? ...all over but the crying... :D
Because it's not really a debate that needs to be had, because it's not a matter of opinion or even recent news. 2strokes displaced 4strokes already in equal displacement racing. That's when the GP circuit were 250 and 500cc racing classes. It's already been done, and any sort of academic reading about engine development doesn't state it with emotion. It's just a simple matter of fact. No one likes to think it, but 450's are NOT technological evolutions in power. They're a shoehorn engine for a need to make "responsible" engines. If that weren't the case, we would have to have valves and all this garbage to make the power, but we don't do we, and anyone with web browser can discover how obvious this is.

This information is EVERYWHERE except the ads in Dirt Wheels guys... For example:

Opinions differ on presence of OEM dichotomy
SAE 2010 World Congress panelists point to evolutionary change as a way of striking a balance between fulfilling customers' desire for fun-to-drive vehicles and the need to meet environmental and fuel-economy requirements. Full Story (http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/8077)

So if you can't make a 250cc 4stroke as much fun as a 2stroke, I guess we'll just have to make the fu**ing thing bigger until it is.

[All250R]

Here's another fun one (http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/03/two-stroke-superiority-internal-combustion-engines-compared/). This line made me laugh: "One might compare it to a particularly incompetent baseball team being allowed to bat from a tee."

..."If a four-stroke supposedly can’t compete without being on regulatory welfare, how can anyone consider it superior?"

[John Noftsinger]

Your right on the shoehorn a 4-stroke motor in for the 2-stroke thats true ! but it was for the changing air pollution laws coming ahead that made that happen(and the Z400 showed up) and as for comparing a two stroke cc,s to a 4-stroke cc,s doest everybody get that the 4-stroke ,s crank basically rotates 4 different direction,s compared to 2 that a 2-stroke doe so doubling cc,s for 4-stroke is very close to fair! And 4-stroke pull better lap time,less vibration on a 20 lap moto,linear power ,more usable torque. etc.etc .

[rablack21]

You bring up some good points. I agree with you, racing 250 cc 2 strokes against 400-450cc 4 strokes is a pretty much fair race. It is also true that because of this you affirmed that this "handicap of displacement" is needed in order to make racing fair between a 2 stroke and a 4 stroke. Because let's face it, there is no way a 250cc 4 stroke would have a chance against a 250cc 2 stroke. However, I again agree with you, 4 strokes do have less vibration. As for pulling better lap times, that is negligible. There are too many factors involved to show any evidence of this. As far as linear power and torque, a 2 stroke has a better power to weight ratio and a better power per cc ratio than a 4 stroke hands down. This cuts down on weight tremendously. Also, as for air pollution, this isn't really a factor either. We have much cleaner burning mixing oils now than we ever have. Plus, industries have continued to use 2 strokes for many years after they stopped making 2 stroke atvs. Most boat motors, gas trimmers, chain saws, leaf blowers, some diesel engines, scooters, jet skis, snow mobiles, and etc. are still using 2 stroke motors in current and future designs.

[All250R]

Here's a short but unbiased article on BRP's bid to remain in the two stroke industry despite the EPA ratchet-down that has the japanese businessmen pushing 4stroke dogs8it to powersports:
http://www.sae.org/mags/AEI/8157

I am miffed why they're only designed in 155hp. That's very low for an 800cc 2stroke, and would market better the natural strength of the engine - power.

[All250R]

Originally posted by rablack21
Plus, industries have continued to use 2 strokes for many years after they stopped making 2 stroke atvs. Most boat motors, gas trimmers, chain saws, leaf blowers, some diesel engines, scooters, jet skis, snow mobiles, and etc. are still using 2 stroke motors in current and future designs.

There is a displacement cap on production of 2stroke engines that don't meet the EPA guidelines. I don't know what it is, but it's not enough to power an adult sized vehicle. I just bought a power trimmer (2stroke of course), and my model alone because it's sold in California has extra smog design and mechanics mandated to be built in - it's 25cc's. :rolleyes:

[All250R]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Your right on the shoehorn a 4-stroke motor in for the 2-stroke thats true ! but it was for the changing air pollution laws coming ahead that made that happen(and the Z400 showed up) and as for comparing a two stroke cc,s to a 4-stroke cc,s doest everybody get that the 4-stroke ,s crank basically rotates 4 different direction,s compared to 2 that a 2-stroke doe so doubling cc,s for 4-stroke is very close to fair! And 4-stroke pull better lap time,less vibration on a 20 lap moto,linear power ,more usable torque. etc.etc .

The point isn't to take two engines, tweak each one to make them equal by an undefined criteria, based on their relative merits and then decide you're having a competition of technology. The point is to take two engines with a standardized design limitation and see which one does the job better. Otherwise there's just no limit to the shenanigans once you decide the rules aren't important anymore and everything becomes apples and oranges. lol There has to be adherence to a common constraint.

When people talk about two strokes they talk about the very good power to weight, size and complexity ratio. If your objective in design needs those things, then you've found the better engine.

When people talk about four strokes, they talk about reliability, economy and superior emissions adherence. If you're objective is design needs in those things, then you've found the better engine.

Making a four stroke engine bigger until you gain an edge in power over a two stroke does not make it a better engine for power, just like making a two stroke smaller to make it use less fuel doesn't make it a better engine for economy. Hopefully that makes some sense to people.

[mxduner]

I am miffed why they're only designed in 155hp. That's very low for an 800cc 2stroke, and would market better the natural strength of the engine - power. [/B]
That advertised hp rating is right on par with all the other 800cc 2 stroke sleds, however it has tractor like torque, and awesome economy... oil and fuel:devil:

[witech]

http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/762/8901/Motorcycle-Article/Electric-Superbike-Beats-Gas-Bikes-in-WERA.aspx

Did even make it a year and now electric is showing it can compete with the big boys.

[RATPACK Z400]

Now they are making (very few) V-twin 4-stroke motors that are lightweight .If only the rule on single cylinder motors change then you would see some monster 450 v-twin 4-strokes ! that put 60-70 hps STOCK,. Apilla has dirtbike with a v-twin lightweight 550 and read they were planing on a 450 ,ATK(HIGHLAND) built one too ! 4-strokes can and will be the motor! But the rules need to change on single cylinder motors too race MX or GNNC. then Companys can make these motor and have a reason too make them! IMO If they changed rules and CO,s made a V-TWIN 450/FI you would,nt want anything else it would be that awesome in power !