shocks

[bigbad400]

i am 145 lbs and i have some issues getting my shocks to treat me good. the fronts are 450 shocks rear is stock.

i notice first that my rear bucks around. i cant seem to dial it in. any suggestions. how urs is setup.

it just seems the front rolls right over and when the rear hits it bucks up on me. what do i adjust to get that to stop.

second i just got my new ccp stabilizer and i have absolutely no complaints this thing is amazing. i have yet to mess with the dial but even all the way soft its great.

and third my front shocks seem to respond to fast, like they dont float over whoops like id like them too. how do i slow that down some?

with the stabilizer and 450 shocks i was able to get around my field almost 5 seconds faster. yes it is a big field. i can take the hard curves in 4th now, pulling through... and befor i had to use third and kinda slide around. now i power through it. i bet i can get another 2 seconds off if i could get these shock a little better. any help would be awsome thanks guys.

[honda400ex2003]

you could try to turn the rebound down on all of them. It will slow how fast they spring back and should help with the pogo type bounce. I know there is a sheet around somewhere that shows where the rebound screw is at on each of them. Although i am no expert by any means with shocks lol. if they go up and down and ride decent i dont care about them lol. If i raced hard core then i would get them dialed decent lol. I am subscribed now to learn a bit more about them. steve

[triple b]

Let me start by saying........
The 450R springs are going to be to stiff for you and you will never get the set up just right but you can make it a lot better.

First: Set your ride height. Lower the 450R shocks as far as they will go. Now sit on the EX in full gear on level ground and measure the frame at the a-arm bracket and now at the peg mount. The rear should be 1/4" to 1/2" lower

Second: front shocks......The top adjustment is the compression and the bottom one is the re-bound. Adj the bottom to full hard and the top to full soft. The 450r shocks are over sprung for the ex and this will help with that.

Third: Rear shock.......The top adjustment is the compression and the bottom one is the re-bound. If the rear is bucking soften up the compression and slow down the rebound (make it harder)

Now take the flat screw driver with you next time you go riding and mess around with the clickers (Adjustment screws on the shocks) and have fun

[bigbad400]

thats perfect triple b thats what i needed was someone to say what point to start and why. and i know they wont be perfect, but hell stock there better than the rec. Elka triples i had. lol

the only question i have now is that, i was told when u put the 450r shocks on, you should raise the rear a half inch to make up for the ride height gained with the 450 shocks. if this is true why should my rear be lower?


can someone clarify why?

and i think i need my rear sent out. i have the ride height all the way off the adjustments all soft and it still bucks me around. am i misreading something here? or is my shock just not going to be any better for me than it is now? i thaught if i softened it up it would soak up the hits better.

[triple b]

With the 450r shock set as low as they will go the front will be 1/2" higher.

Put all your gear on and check the ride HT

For me @ 210 lbs with the 450r shock and ride HT at 1/4" lower in the rear there was way to much pre load on the stock spring. I ended up with 1/2" to 3/4" lower in the rear worked the best.

Your rear spring is a little bit stiff for your weight but should work fine. (check out race tech spring caculator)

If your rebound is full soft also that could be the reason for the bucking. With rebound at full soft you are allowing the rear shock to open up to quickly causing the rear to pop.

To me it sounds like you need to start over.......Set your ride HT and put your rear shock setting back to center and start making laps and adjustments.

[dustin_j]

triple b is right, start with your ride height and make sure the rear isn't too much lower when you're standing on the bike. Take note of how many turns of preload are required to achieve your ride height. Just to agree/reiterate what triple b is saying:

Take all the preload off your front springs to where the spring is just touching the seat (note, you can now brag to your buddies that you have "zero preload" front shocks). Measure frame height as b suggested (to clarify, the front measurement is behind the rear a-arm bracket before the frame rakes upward). Adjust rear preload so the front measurement is 1/4" higher than the rear (you should be able to achieve this with your spring). Keep track of how many turns of preload you needed (from the spring seat just touching, to where you stopped). Report back with how much preload you used on the rear and what your frame height (ride height) ended up being, if you don't mind :) .

As b said, start with your settings in the middle, and adjust them changing one setting at a time so you know what the change did.

Has anyone tried using stock 400ex springs on 450r shocks?

[triple b]

The ID of 400 ex spring will not fit on the R shock. (That was one of the first things I looked at)

I did read a test on 450r shock custom valving with Suzuki 450 progressive springs. The test rider was very pleased with the set up.

I looked all over for Zuk springs and could not find any.

[bigbad400]

here is my befor i go to the garage thoughts. lol

first, thanks for the help. second, im willing to bet my rear ride height and rebound is probably the problem.

i always thought if its bucking it must be too stiff, loosen everything up. so im going to do it like u say and set the ride height accordingly to match the front. and set the dials at center i will report back with what i have. and how it rides.

[triple b]

Bad400......I was just reading your list of mods and with your tire combo and R shocks you really need to work on ride HT first

One more thing.......After you get the ride HT worked out check you alignment.......I bet your tow is off

[dustin_j]

Actually, bigbad400, the issue may be counter-intuitive. If it were your front shocks acting stiff/harsh, then you'd be correct that you need to soften it. However, since your rear shock has a linkage, it's a little different. The issue with 400ex rear suspension is in the progression of the linkage. The rear gets too stiff too fast. Therefore, as your rear shock could feel harsh from being too far into the travel. Then, your adjustments to soften the shock could lead you further into the travel, and result in a worse ride. That is why you want to start with the ride height to make sure you're ridinig close to level with a little rake to the front for bump deflection. Once your ride height is correct your spring adjustments are done and you can start messing with your clickers to change damping. You may find that you prefer a different ride height relationship (like triple b) than what is "recommended" by builders like GT Thunder.

triple b, what was the application used to test the Zuk springs? Stock width? I wonder what the spring rating is for the Zuk springs; I'm not sure how you quantify a progressive spring since it's not a linear rate. I'm liking the dual rate setup I converted to for my Elkas, though I'm still testing other spring rates. You could setup yours similar for a couple hundred.

[triple b]

It was a local shock tuner testing on a Stock 450R on an MX Track. He was looking for a way to reduce the cost of his stock shock service and market it towards the rec rider.
He had all the spring rates.....but I do not remember what they were.

The progressive spring was in reference to the Zuk single spring coils are wound tighter at the top.

The dual spring set up will work better and is tuneable.

[tri5ron]

I've got nothing to add here,
I'm just subscribing to this thread.
This is interesting, and want to see how it develops.
Ron

[dustin_j]

Sorry, triple b, I understand what a progressive spring is. I was just wondering how it is rated, since it isn't just a linear spring rate. It's nice to see a shock builder trying to offer an affordable package to riders who don't need the performance of the higher priced kits offered from the popular builders.

[triple b]

Dustin.....I know you know.......I guess I was helping others understand also.

Ron.....when you are ready to work on you shocks let me know I have been doing a lot testing with my buddy to get the 450r / 400ex shock to work and ride like a Caddy in the So-Cal / AZ Deserts. After you get the shocks re-sprung and re-valved you will be amazed how well the package works. Test rides available upon request :D

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by triple b
Dustin.....I know you know.......I guess I was helping others understand also.

Ron.....when you are ready to work on you shocks let me know I have been doing a lot testing with my buddy to get the 450r / 400ex shock to work and ride like a Caddy in the So-Cal / AZ Deserts. After you get the shocks re-sprung and re-valved you will be amazed how well the package works. Test rides available upon request :D triple b, Where in Ca are you located ? I'm in the city of Orange, btwn the 91,22, 55, and 57 frwys.
I already have a set of Works Triples at 600/600/215
but have not re-valved the shocks yet.
to be honest, it dosent seem like they really need it.
But I realize that it is sort of the same thing as when a rider "Thinks" he's happy with the OEM's, until he gets to try a upgraded set.
Then the difference is "HOLY COW !, Why didn't I do this SOONER ???"
Pm me if you like with your location and contact info.
We ride El Mirage, Johnson Valley, Jawbone, Dove Springs, etc.

[triple b]

I live in Whittier......Work in Garden Grove.

We ride mostly in Parker AZ (My in-laws have a house there) & Landers (my family has a house there) but we will travel any where for a good ride.

[MidnightBlade]

just checking in want to know the best cheapest way to get better shocks.

[bigbad400]

Originally posted by triple b
Bad400......I was just reading your list of mods and with your tire combo and R shocks you really need to work on ride HT first

One more thing.......After you get the ride HT worked out check you alignment.......I bet your tow is off


ok so i set the front up like u all said, bottom to full hard top to full soft. "zero preload" on the springs.

i measured and its 8 7/8 inches under the skid plate, in the front. the back was at like 9 1/2 with almost an inch of threads showing on the spring retainer. i lowered it so that the rear is right around 8 1/2. this is basicly backed all the way off. i might have 5-6 turns to go. and set the dials in the middle.

its a little sloppy, like its too squishy, i hit my airbox on the chain too on just a little drop into a field maybe 4 ft drop. thats not good. the front feels great but i had to turn the settings both all the way soft to like it. them are good thow, i like were im at in the front. the toe is a little off. lol i didnt mess with it yet. it dont feel off.

so my initial idea is to raise the rear a 1/8 inch so that it wont bottom as easily. but i didnt mess with that yet. i wanted to give my thoughts. ride is so much better already guys thanks for the help.

when im done ill post up a pic, i switched plastics and a bunch of stuff. shes a red 400 now not yellow anymore. i thought that it looked dumb with a burnt orange frame with yellow, i got the red on it and i love it.

[dustin_j]

How many turns of preload are on the rear spring? To tell this you need to put the quad on a stand so the rear wheels are off the ground. Back off the preload until it is just touching the top of the spring; count how many turns it took to get there so you can put it back to where you had it. If this is less than 3 turns you're good.

Adding preload to move up the rear height another 1/8 inch would be good.

To fix your airbox issue, take off your rear shock while your quad is on a stand. Measure eye to eye length (center to center). Then move up the bottom out bumper so you can see the nut on the bottom of the shaft/top of clevis. Measure from the top of that nut to the bottom of the shock body; this is your shock travel. Now take your eye to eye length and subtract your shock travel; this is your compressed shock length. jack up your axle until your shock mounting holes are as far apart as your compressed shock length. This is what your rear end looks like bottomed out. If you see something is contacting that shouldn't, you can address it before something breaks.

It would be worthwhile to do the same as above for the front shocks as well. You could do them all at the same time to see what your frame height is at full bottom out. You should have 1.5 inches between your frame and the ground when the shocks are bottomed to have maximum shock travel (since the tires will flex and use up most of the 1.5 inch). You don't want your frame to contact the ground when you're bottoming out. Mine did when I bought it, and it tweaked my frame slightly before I noticed/fixed it. I added external spacers to make my shocks bottom out sooner so it will no longer hit.

Glad to hear your ride is getting better. Keep working on your setup. Good shocks are nothing if they're on a poor setup.

[Muzzgit]

You did measure it while you were sitting on it, didn't you :)

[bigbad400]

thank you for the help first of all.

i moved the airbox up 1/4 inch (it only scratched it) and i raised the rear another 1/8. from the top of the shock it was 9 full rotations (2 turns more than i had it befor) to set it to 8 5/8 inch from the bottom of the skid with me on the quad. an exact 1/4 inch lower in the rear.

MUCH better ride, almost dont even want to mess with it anymore. lol

btw maybe its not good to do this but to find out what it looked like bottomed out i strapped it to the trailer and ratcheted it till it was at bottom, nothing touches anymore. lol will that hurt the shock? i have another stock rear so i wasn't worried. i wont never bottom the fronts the way they are. plus i have bigger front tires so it would take a little extra to get the frame to the ground.


i really cant find anything to note on the ride was good, ill have to get a couple more hours in to really see. im also gonna try to set the toe tomorrow.

i appreciate it guys.

[dustin_j]

No problem, glad it's working better. Thanks for posting results to others can learn.

I'd recommend removing the shock rather than strapping it down. I doubt you're hurting it, but it's not hard to remove the shock. Happy riding :macho

[bigbad400]

i have a custom fliptop subframe and a aluminum airbox that pretty much takes up the rest of the room, removing the shock is a little more involved.

im not even going to mess with it anymore, it rides so much better than befor. i hit up a friends mx track through the woods (logs rocks roots and mud are all part of this "mx" track. thats what he calls it, lol) today and rode for quite a few laps, i have no complaints, i cant bottom it, its smooth and it doesnt buck.

he has a tripple with a roller in the middle and usually i am too scared to hit it full on, but i did and it went flawless, no bottoming, no harsh landing, and yet, when you come to the rolling logs and rocks, it takes them smooth and keeps me straight every time.

[triple b]

[i] Good shocks are nothing if they're on a poor setup. [/B]

There is the quote of the week.

I have been out of the loop for the past few days..... Dustin took way better care of your needs that I ever could have.

Dont be afraid to keep playing with your adjustments. You now have a good base line to come back to. Keep learning what you like and dont like. That way when you do have some extra cash you can tell your shock tuner exactly what you want.

One last thing get your alignment right and you will be set

[guenther]

Also get a steering stabilizer and you'll be amazed at what you can take on that you couldn't before.

[bigbad400]

i have a ccp stabilizer, i said that, but i dont think its in the sig. i love the thing too. its amazing. i have done the alignment, nice and straight now.


ok so after some real riding i have some more to touch on, everything is perfect riding down the trail, but when i get her off the ground 10 ft or so the rear bottoms out, like off the side of my driveway it is aprox a 12 ft drop, it bottoms a little, i leap off in 2nd so im not flying, but still a good drop, now without a landing ramp, should i expect that it will bottom, is the stocker just not gonna take it? or do i need to adjust something? the track i couldn't bottom it, but there is a landing ramp on them jumps too.

you guys have bean great. thank you so much. i can do motors, but these shocks have some technology in them dont they. lol

[dustin_j]

It depends. Is this the hardest landing you encounter? Is it a real harsh bottom out? If it's a light bottom out, then you are just using all your travel. You can try to stiffen your comp adjuster (clockwise) to see if you can lessen the impact.

[triple b]

You want the suspension to bottom out softly once or twice a lap.....like Dustin said you are using all your suspension. If it is a harsh bottom out that make your compression harder one click at a time

Use that current compression / re-bound setting as your base line "TRAIL RIDE" mark it with a sharpe and now start playing with the "TRACK DAY" settings and swith back and forth them then mark it with a different color sharpe.

On my Moto i am alwasy messing with the compression settings on the forks and rear shock depending on where we ride that day. super tight single track to high speed desert

[triple b]

Now this guy needs a little bit more compression in his front shocks......this would be a harsh bottom out




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[guenther]

Originally posted by bigbad400
i have a ccp stabilizer, i said that, but i dont think its in the sig.


Now you have it listed :D Glad it's working good for you.

[bigbad400]

ouch is all i have to say for that. im talking my rear end bottoms tho. front doesn't.

it is not that bad at all, it is only a light bottom, like you said i marked it for trails. i stiffened it up on the compression and did a couple more jumps, it helped but not much. i think im just going to have to keep saving up for the rebuilds. in order for my little *** to have the ride height were it needs to be i make it too soft to jump really. it needs a dual rate setup or something, so i can have the sag but good bottoming resistance too. no matter what i do now that the ride height is set, i cant get it to be any better for me. like i said, its not a bad bottom out but what if i want to go bigger. these are small jumps.

if i could get it off my phone without internet i would post the video for yall, but i cant.

thanks again. also what would the elka or gt thunder xc links do? and would i be able to handle a mx track with xc setup suspension? i have mx tires i run for track time. its not too often, so id rather have the xc setup since i love making my own trails. lol and i want to get started in some local hare scrabbles and gncc style races.

[dustin_j]

Sounds like it's okay for now, but I agree what if you want to go bigger? Although, a 12foot drop onto flat ground going slow is probably harder than most of the landings you'll see on an mx track (unless you can't hit the down ramp). Does the rear still seem to buck bad?

From what I've seen/read the elka linkage is very similar to stock, so I don't think you gain anything. I have the GT Thunder mx linkage and I LOVE IT! I highly recommend the GTT linkages, the buck is eliminated (just don't get the link without the revalve/respring). The only problem for your setup, is if you used the xc link and then put on your mx tires your frame would bottom out wayy too easily. The linkages are made for the specific tire heights 18" or 20" to give correct extended and compressed lengths with the stock rear shock. If you told the Laz (or the shock builder) you wanted an all around setup with the xc link, your ride would be so much better than it is now that you probably wouldn't need the small tires for mx.

I put an mx link on my brother-in-law's ex with 20" rear tires, and revalved and resprung his shock. We're just waiting for parts to finish the engine and I'll try to report how it rides. If I remember correctly, the ride height ended up around 8" with 3 turns of preload. It's a little high, but we'll see how it works.

[bigbad400]

the xc link is made for 20" tires? so not good to run the links with 22"s then hu? i like having the bigger tires for were i ride in the woods its rocky and rutted and can be muddy. 20"s i just got stuck way too much.

so more than likely a rework of the shocks is next up on the to do list. :D

[dustin_j]

22s would be fine with the link, you just wouldn't get the ride height quite as low as if you had 20s.