CR250 ignition with HID's

[derby]

Ok so a little over a year ago I started working on a HID setup to be used on my puma with a cr250 ignition. I had no where to start no ideas nothing to copy. So I started where everyone else has which is from scratch. I started with an electrosport lighting stator and regulator. I got everything put together and “pop” blew out the ballast on one of my HID’s. After spending $200 for another ballast I ditched the idea of using a stator to power the lights. I then went to lithium ion power which costs about the same as the stator did and found it to work very well. I finally got the ideal wattage and Ah to power 2 HID's for about 4 hours. I have played with the setup for awhile until I got some ideas from another lighting system I had seen. I bought a used Service Honda cr500 lighting system that they used to sell. I found where service Honda had been buying their supplies to build the ignitions. I basically built up a new cr250 stator and harness coupled that with my lithium ion battery, nology hotwire, profire coil, and dyna fs. So far the system is working very well. Here are a few pics of it I took. Sorry for the poor quality pictures on my phone…… it is all I had while the police were in route. Why can’t the neighbors be more understanding? If they only knew what kind of success this was.

http://i43.tinypic.com/v8igef.jpg

http://i39.tinypic.com/dom5xx.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/j59kzl.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/qsw4mv.jpg

[250r__Ice]

Have you got any details on the cr500 lighting system. I saw there setup and and gave them a call. I was thinking about using there system but I already had alot in a moose lighting stator and a cr ignition. I mounted a small battery from walmart in the nose of my r, did some modifications to the harness, installed a rectifier/regulator. I still use the stock head light switch and kill switch. I have used h4 bulbs from 25watt to 60 watt. I have used the led h4 bulbs. I currently have a hid system I got off ebay. So far the hid does good. I havent rode it much, just up the road and around the house. Its alot brighter than the 25-60 watt and the led. It looks bright like the pictures you posted. The cr500 system is suppose to be more powerful. I think they are suppose to put out 130 watts and at lower rpms. Any info you have would be great. Service honda says the cr500 system is not available, so thats no good. The moose lighting stator I have is only about 50-60 watts. A little more power would be great. Been alot of trial and error but I think it there.

[siderbox]

I've been working on the same thing.

I talked to Service Honda about the CR500 set up. They use the same Moose lighting coil.
Which is the same one that Electrosport has. At least the one I got from Electrosport was a Moose.

It's funny that SH says there's is 130W.

derby
Did you have a rectifier regulator or just a regulator?
If you just had a regulator that is the reason your ballast went out.

The reason the kit is not available from SH is the mapping in the CDI. I have been waiting for them to get it done.
I'm going to get one for my trx500 hybrid.

[250r__Ice]

So Service Honda is claiming 130 watts with there system, but its basically the same as the 60 watt Moose lighting stator that I got from Dennis Kirk, right. Have you found anymore option available.

[siderbox]

That's what it looks like.

The spec in SH says 130 at 5000rpm

I haven't measured the out put of the Moose '60w' yet.

My thought is that Moose is almost under rating them. Some where in the usable rpm range.

I found it odd also. SH telling me that they use the Moose stator, the one that Moose says is a 60watter. But SH is saying there system is 130w.

When I get back from Waynoka I'm going to put alot more time in the set up I have and see what it puts out.
Do a little comparison to the stock system and to the RickyStator 200w system.

[deathman53]

just curious, how did you try to use the hid light? Did you put a regulator/rectifier and a battery? Or did you try to run it off of AC? I have a hid on my dirtbike, off the stator it goes to reg/rec, then to the stock battery and its tapped off the battery to the stock headlight switch location. Btw, this a ktm dirtbike with a split ac/dc system and to use staight dc, I had to modify the stator. I am thinking of doing the same thing to my 250r w/cr250r ignition.

[250r__Ice]

I used a regulator rectifier and a battery. Running straight DC.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by siderbox
That's what it looks like.

The spec in SH says 130 at 5000rpm

I haven't measured the out put of the Moose '60w' yet.

My thought is that Moose is almost under rating them. Some where in the usable rpm range.

I found it odd also. SH telling me that they use the Moose stator, the one that Moose says is a 60watter. But SH is saying there system is 130w.

When I get back from Waynoka I'm going to put alot more time in the set up I have and see what it puts out.
Do a little comparison to the stock system and to the RickyStator 200w system.

I would be interested in this comparison. I have been running a Ricky Stator 200 watt stator for years, it sure seems pretty weak at low rpms. I have dual 8" 35 watt hid's, and at low rpm's, the stator cannot keep up with them, even with a battery. I have to be revving the motor decent to run both lights. I am going to be buying a CR ignition soon. Since I only use the lights a few times a year, I was planning on just swapping to the stock ignition stuff when I need to use the lights. I would love to find a way to run the lights with the CR ignition, but I don't think the Moose stator will cut it, unless it really is under rated by a good amount.

Doug

[Motofool250r]

any updates on this guys how did these stators work out for you?

im looking for a way to get lights on my dune bikes with cr250 ignitions

[wilkin250r]

Pictures.

Links.

C'mon people, I don't expect you to spell out every little detail, but if I have to search for this information, at least give me a roadmap so I'm not driving blind here!

[leager-n-ky]

I saw in a Steahly Off Road catalog, that they made a CR 250 set up, to run lights..

[Motofool250r]

stealthy has these products

http://www.steahlyoffroad.com/lighting/lighting-coils/honda-lighting-coils/honda-cr-250-99-01-lighting-coil.html

cr250 lighting coil 50watt

http://www.steahlyoffroad.com/lighting/wiring-switches/voltage-regulator-12-volt-ac.html

voltage regulator


now you just need a simple switch and some light i believe

i asked them how accurate the 50watt coil is if i ran a 50watt HID if it would be enough or not waiting on a reply.

[Motofool250r]

so i had a lengthy chat with trail tech support department, he tells me unless i can find a floating ground stator for the cr250 ignition HID are out of the question.

the stealthy offroad setup i ordered is an AC stator not a floating ground setup.

so right now im stuck to halogens, or going with a battery powered Lithium ION HID kit on the frame the handle bars or helmut.

Cant use LED either as they are DC also.

trailtech did offer a setup for one 8" hid with two batteries powering it for 4hrs run time this is just too large for my dune bike though.

[Higgy87TRX425]

Yeah I'm gonna be dealing with the same issues here real soon too. Cause we all love to ride at night and I sure as hell don't wanna give that up. The 2 mag lights taped to the helmet and the other taped to the front fender on my CR250r dirtbike didn't cut it very well and definalty won't work on my Puma! LOL! So I'm interested in seeing what you guys come up with to use? I like the SH cr500 idea, too bad there not selling them?? I'll be following this thread though! Thanks Higgy!

[wilkin250r]

Somebody not too long ago successfully floated the ground on the 250r stator, it was a pretty simple process, and used a 400EX regulator/Rectifier. It was just a matter of unsoldering one connection, and then running a separate ground wire out of the stator.

It's entirely possible you could do something similar with the steahly stator. In fact, even though I've never seen the steahly stator, I'm still 80% confident it could be done. And when you only have 50W to work with, HID would be the only way I would go. 50W of halogens or ordinary incandescent bulbs just don't have enough reach. Some of us are running 65+ horsepower, you'll outrace those headlights in a flash.

[Uns]

Ahh, good old misinformation and this topic combining again to create another post. Someday when I find a free second I'll do a writeup of this and put it somewhere on the internet.

Anyways, there is no situation in which the ground on the AC could not be floated. Stators are simple windings of wire, and by definition, wire has two ends to it. One end already feeds out via the wires that come out of the stator area. The other end must exist, and is a simple matter of identification. That, I can't particularly help with unless it was the Stock honda one. I'll slap one of my pictures up here of the Honda one for reference.

It should just be a matter of desoldering one wire that is connected to ground on the stator, "floating" it, and checking that end with an ohm meter compared to the AC out end of the stator that is already known. If you read infinite ohms on that, either you just floated the wrong ground and need to resolder and test the other grounded wire, or your stator is broken.

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Unnessisary and impractical, but interesting theory below this line.
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And on the other side of this coin, you only need to float one of the two "grounds" in your accessory circuit. You can also float your DC output ground from the rectifier. Simply run a second wire to anything that is hooked in to the rectifier, and you are set.

Basically, it can be explained by the stock bridge rectifier on wikipedia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/RC_Filter.png/800px-RC_Filter.png

Whether or not one or the other AC lines are tied to a earth type ground, the other wire will still swing +/-12 volts around your "grounded" ac wire. As long as you keep both AC lines separate from both DC lines, the diodes inside the rectifier can do their job. As soon as one of the DC wires came into contact with an AC wire, the DC system would be direct tied to the AC system and you would most likely smoke test something on the AC wire, as it would be a near direct short for half the phase of the AC. Thus why everyone says to "float your ground." But its dealer's choice on which one you float.

There are two good reasons to float your AC as compared to your DC: 1. Wire costs. You can run a second 3 feet(or less) wire from your stator to your rectifier, or you can run ground to every DC component. 2. You have to gauge all that DC ground and power wire to match your newly increased length of wiring. Basically, as you add wire length, you increase the overall resistance of the circuit, especially when in reference to the old ground wire, Mr. Frame. As you add resistance, you actually decrease the amperage of the circuit (V=IR, V/R=I, inversely proportional, for purely resistive circuits. Worst case, a constant current sink could REALLY burn up some wires.) This decrease in amperage of the circuit comes at a cost of increased power loss in the wire in the form of heat. While talking about things on the tenths or hundredths of ohms scale might seem like splitting hairs, and honda probably including some leeway in their wiring system, it is still something to be aware of. A couple of good websites for this is http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/amps-wire-gauge-d_730.html and the calculator at the end of http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

Pardon the rambling. It's a bit late over here!

[Motofool250r]

thanks for the information,

in your eyes what would be the best route
float the ground off the stator direct or off one of these regulators linked below.
http://trailtech.net/regulator_rectifier.html

i looked at the 400ex regulator but i would have to source a connector too as it has a honda connector.

These are the lights i want to run

http://www.trailtech.net/451-LM.html

or if not possible both then just one should be sufficient.

battery choices ive found here
3700mAH NiMH is the best for this application

http://trailtech.net/batteries_capacitors.html



reading the diagram for the trailtech website shows many more wires then most regulators for AC.

what are they yellow wires used for?
Black is ground and Red is Power right?

Thanks for your help UNS i am no electrical guy =)

[wilkin250r]

Originally posted by Uns
Anyways, there is no situation in which the ground on the AC could not be floated. Stators are simple windings of wire, and by definition, wire has two ends to it.

In theory you are correct, but some cases might be easier said than done. I've seen ground wires covered in epoxy, I've seen ground wires so close to the coil that desoldering is impractical, and have even seen ground connections actually buried inside the coil that would require unwinding to access, and then the entire coil covered in epoxy.

I'm not trying to contradict you, because I doubt the steahly stator has any of these difficult aspects. But there are indeed other aspects to consider beyond the electrical, and some of those mechanical obstacles might be beyond the skills of the casual tinkerer.

[Uns]

Moto: Basically, you need one of those rectifier/regulators listed, AND float a set of wires off of the chassis ground. You either need to float the AC by unsoldering the ground connection on the lighting coil on the stator and running an extra wire out of the stator case, or you will need to run an extra ground wire to all of your DC accessories to keep the DC portion of the circuit isolated.

Basically, the name of the game is making sure that the red and black wires coming from the output of your rectifier/regulator NEVER come in contact with anything that the two yellow wires are contacting, and obviously that the two yellow wires never contact, nor the red and black wires. Since by default, the stator wire comes in contact with the frame(through stator to engine to frame), you cannot use the frame as the ground wire for the DC circuit. You can use other wire for the ground, but only as long as it doesn't come into contact with any other wires, including the "frame" wire.

I slapped together a quick MSCadPaint of what I'm talking about. As you can see, the "ground" symbol simply means "Large wire" in this case, effectively. If you don't feel comfortable getting into your stator and doing it the way the right side shows, you are going to have to do it the way the left side shows. While the Left side might seem initially easier, because you dont have to mess with the stator directly, the possibility of ruined wires from excess heat, combined with the extra cost of wire, combined with the fact that it is very possible that some of the components you might be hooking up might have a ground through a mounting point to the frame, would all add up to be a pain.

I know you didn't ask, but I feel compelled to point out, that HIDs should NEVER be ran on the stock wiring. While they settle and operate at the claimed 35 or 55 watts of a stock bulb, their initial current draw can be in the multiple tens of amps(i.e. multiple hundreds of watts) and is why you cannot run HID's without a large current source to fire them(such as battery or capacitor.) To get to the point, those hundreds of initial watts could play serious havoc on the stock 16-18 gauge wire that is ran in the system. Since you are switching over to a HID setup, and require a battery or capacitor anyways, I would suggest building your own lighting/accessory circuit from scratch, complete with fuses/breakers leaving the battery's positive terminal, and solder and use heat shrink tube with silicon electrolytic grease on all soldered joints. I know this sounds like a pain in the ***, and it is! But if you have the stock lighting wiring harness, and are planning on running two HIDs and a battery, then it really is pretty much necessary. I know that I don't want my lights to fail on the trail, and a surefire way to have them do just that is to put HID's on an electrical system designed and built in 1986.

Wilkin: True, potting of the stator could make it practically impossible, and at that point, you would be forced to float the DC. I'm guessing that virtually no aftermarket stator would be potted with epoxy, simply because it is an accepted fix to rewind/rebuild a stator when it fails, and not to simply trash it like the cheap electronics that are usually potted.

[Motofool250r]

The cr250 ignition/harness has zero provisions for lighting so it will all be custom from the lighting coil connections. Are you suggesting I should run larger wire from the stator direct or just use good wire from the stealth stators light connection?

Soldering n sealing the wires no big deal, what size wire would you recommend ? I can go get some automotive wire or even from a stereo shop.

Is the 3700mAh battery enough for this setup ?

[Uns]

My only concern on the wire size was because of the HID's and especially if you ran the stock wiring harness. I ran 12 gauge in my old setup with two 35 watt offroad HID's, I think. I would suggest nothing less than 14 gauge though, and wire as big a wire as you are willing to price out and/or work with routing vs stiffness.