Why did Can-Am Chicken Out??

[ThePhantomRider]

I am just wondering why Can-Am didn't stick to their guns and release the DS 450 as it was intended....As a DS 250 s stroke beast. They would have had a market cornered..all the old school 250 guys, Banshee lovers, and it would have come in early enough to be grandfathered into the 450 class, if not because of how the rules work but because Can-Am ended up sponsoring the GNCC.

Now some would say that the 2 stroke wouldn't work because of EPA standards...well the motor they were using was cleaner than most of the 450's...the quad was done folks and they backed out, took a 70's era bottom end, mated to a improper top end and ruined the quad in the process.

Everything was designed for a light 250, that's why they had overheating, stressed frames, etc. It was to be 290 pounds dry and they ruined it. If anyone ever has the time, order up the 250 two stroke from Rotax...all you need is to make a couple different mounting brackets and everything will fit perfect...you can even run a Paul Turner, Pro Circuit or any other type of midrange or top end pipe...

C'mon Can-Am...time to fess up and tell the truth!!!


TPR

[florentino]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
I am just wondering why Can-Am didn't stick to their guns and release the DS 450 as it was intended....As a DS 250 s stroke beast. They would have had a market cornered..all the old school 250 guys, Banshee lovers, and it would have come in early enough to be grandfathered into the 450 class, if not because of how the rules work but because Can-Am ended up sponsoring the GNCC.

Now some would say that the 2 stroke wouldn't work because of EPA standards...well the motor they were using was cleaner than most of the 450's...the quad was done folks and they backed out, took a 70's era bottom end, mated to a improper top end and ruined the quad in the process.

Everything was designed for a light 250, that's why they had overheating, stressed frames, etc. It was to be 290 pounds dry and they ruined it. If anyone ever has the time, order up the 250 two stroke from Rotax...all you need is to make a couple different mounting brackets and everything will fit perfect...you can even run a Paul Turner, Pro Circuit or any other type of midrange or top end pipe...

C'mon Can-Am...time to fess up and tell the truth!!!


TPR
can am did i good job in some areas i have to give them credit for making the quad and did not copy like they all do.
but the have the frame all wrong it works good. why save all the lbs in the frame and put a real big motor.
i like the rear swinger and front suspencion stock is good for me.
i am happy with the motor so far.
i hate how the put the radiator. thats why you cant put gussets on the front cause its in the way.
i am making my own frame and it will have a honda trx radiator. gas tank will be made out aluminum to hold 1.5 galons thats all i need for the track. i will make it 50 inches wide on the front with the stock a amrs i love the front end even at 46 inches wide.
i am looking for cromoly or should i go with mild steel. ??

[THEMACHINIST]

T.P.R
I think it's because the market is better with the 4stroke motor, BUT they should give us the option 2or4 stroke it would be a good way to get the 2stroke lover in there pocket.

[LTR450_#67]

Yeah that doesn't make sense.......Thier Ski-Doo snomobiles have E-Tec and have the best fue and oil economy so far. I'm not sold on the ISO-FLEX bearings and that they have grease in the case

[ThePhantomRider]

They should have just launched the 250, imposed their will with the ATVA and had it grandfathered into the racing series until they could build the 450 properly.

I guarantee you that had the 250 come out at under 300 pounds dry they would have sold twice as many than the number of 450's sold to date.

Instead they have a fantastic chassis made problematic because of the toad of an under performing motor they had to slap together to get it to market.

All you have to do is get the main tester of the DS and ask him about the 250. Everything, the chassis, cooling, suspension and braking was designed for a lighter quad and worked even better. I really want to just wait to find one with a straight frame and blown motor and put a 250 in it...that's the ticket!!

TPR

[bomberman]

They've tested the 2 stroke. It wasn't a 250 2 stroke though. Apparently it was too fast for a stock bike and was putting out alot of horsepower. They will be releasing a 2 stroke just not yet.

[florentino]

Originally posted by bomberman
They've tested the 2 stroke. It wasn't a 250 2 stroke though. Apparently it was too fast for a stock bike and was putting out alot of horsepower. They will be releasing a 2 stroke just not yet.
2 strocks are fun but all that power is use less. even if it had 100hp i know some 250s can make more then that but the in the track the 4 stroke is king. now with the FI even better.
i have a 250r and yes they are fun, but a stock 450 ltr will blow a full race trx 250r in a track with big jumps and alot of turns.
i may race my 250 soon just to see how i do

[ThePhantomRider]

It was a 250 2 stroke. As for racing against 450's...it's all about setup and rider. If you put the best MX rider on a properly set up 250, he would still win.

Doesn't matter though, that is a race that will not happen but still, I can't wait for the day when someone puts a 250 into the DS.

Comparing what was to be the DS 250 to a TRX 250r is not fair as well as the DS was to be much lighter and the power much more broad and controllable. It was easily the most nimble quad built and because it was so light, the least tiring.

TPR

[TNT]

I was not in racing prior to 2004 but I thought during that era the 2 stroke became obsolete due to it’s un-reliability, the 4-stroke was proven to be more reliable and was regeared to develop the same or close torque as 2-strokes…so on came the race ready YFZ450 and TRX450 to start the ball rolling…..

The DS frame issue primarily up front around a single bolt would be there regardless of a lighter motor. It’s failing from arm loads, which a heavier motor would add too, but the under lying issue is BRP did not follow conventional fastener rules. For the most part, the DS frame is a state of the art design, the pyramid cross-section and lock-bolt technology is state of the art along with some of the rest of the design features….This frame seems to be taking the engine load/mass quite well especially at the skid or lower sill. The engine actually aids in taking out flex and a heavier engine will add more fatigue.

The motor, does not respond as well to mods it has big air which is good and bad making the motor heavier and hard to get mid-low power. nor does the 5-valve YFZr respond well to mods or is hard to get top end power…it has less air flow.

To say it was a mistake to release this quad as is 450 4-stroke to me is a far fetch of the imagination, sometimes you draw the line on R&D and hit the market running, it's the only way to keep developing or your design can become obsolete. First 2-3 years of any quad struggles and some like the LTR tranny, TRX crank bearing’s, etc more. I think if BRP redesigns in 2011 they be far ahead of the rest they have a good baseline.

[TNT]

Can-am didn't chicken out of RD 1 MX, two up in the top 5 must be doing something right.

1 1 SUZ Dustin Wimmer Center Valley, PA 1 1
2 44 CAN Chad M. Wienen Galena, IL 4 3
3 9 SUZ Josh Creamer North Stoningto, CT 6 2
4 13 CAN John Natalie Jr Houtzdale, PA 3 5
5 20 HON Josh G. Upperman Louisville, OH 2 6

:D

[cnote1201]

cant argue with success:D

[RosquistRacer39]

IMO a 250 2 stroke would be the king. Racers would pick them up like crazy just for the sheer fact that you could rebuild the motor for pennies compared to the modern day 4-strokes. If it would have been a lightweight 290lbs that would have been unreal. I can only imagine how it would have handled. And as far as reliability, the modern day bikes are far from reliable compared to the 250r. banshee and lt250. Yes their frames were not the best design, but thats what brp fixed. It would be the best of both worlds.

[ThePhantomRider]

Everything was designed for a much lighter two stroke...The fastener issue would not be there if the motor was retained.

Bottom line the quad was done, test riders were freaking out at how fast, how nimble and how easy to ride the quad was. Some testers had the quad whipped past 90 degrees and were landing it no problem. The radiator was small because cooling was not the issue it became, EVERYTHING besides the motor was designed for the 2 stroke.

Instead of releasing the quad, then going and building a 4-stroke they made a Frankenstein...

Too bad too, but at least you can find even DS 450 MX models for cheap these days.

TPR

[trx250rforlife]

im a 250r owner and i worked at a can am dealer ship for 3 mouths i think alot of people would buy a ds 250 2 stroke 4 wheeler cheeper to mantain plus with that rave valve would make alot of usable horspower that would be the quad to have an beat if it came out you never no tho hope the 2 stoke guys prayers are anwsered and we a 250r back in the game and show the 450s how it done

[brpds650]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/brpds650/rotax_0020_257mittel.jpg
rotax 257 engine....

[brpds650]

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/brpds650/rbl-str3.jpg

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff159/brpds650/rbl-str1tn.jpg

[ThePhantomRider]

Nice....that's what I'm talking about.

TPR

[joeyds450x]

How do you get that? And how much does it cost?

[brpds650]

http://atv.off-road.com/atv/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=190534
1997...... before ds650...

[TNT]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Everything was designed for a much lighter two stroke...The fastener issue would not be there if the motor was retained.

Bottom line the quad was done, test riders were freaking out at how fast, how nimble and how easy to ride the quad was. Some testers had the quad whipped past 90 degrees and were landing it no problem. The radiator was small because cooling was not the issue it became, EVERYTHING besides the motor was designed for the 2 stroke.

Instead of releasing the quad, then going and building a 4-stroke they made a Frankenstein...

Too bad too, but at least you can find even DS 450 MX models for cheap these days.

TPR


Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Nice....that's what I'm talking about.

TPR

Is it? No offense but it doesn’t appear that you know as much about structures as you come accross…..Take a look at the frame on the Rebel, majority looks to be of less than 1” welded tubing you don’t see any huge casting’s to transfer large loads under the seat, you don’t see large strong pyramid extrusions, you don’t see aircraft grade fasteners surronding large gussets like the DS married to this 250 motor. Now take the same 250 motor and put in the current DS frame, it should not take long to see that the frame would be over designed, far over-designed, then you be telling brp their frame is too expensive/heavy not their motor. Go figure! I'm sorry but I read ALOT of structure on a daily basis and your story I've read about for over a year now of this frame being designed for a 2 stroke much lighter motor does not add up, especially if the 250 developes high torque the Rebel frame is going to crack. Now I could still be wrong but only BRP Structures Engineer could convince me of that then I'd ask what he's smokin putting such a small motor in large expensive frame. The current DS450 frame has a small issue up front as I said above would be there regardless of the motor, it’s easily solved. The current DS frame takes 99.5 % of the 450 loads it has no business with a 250 motor imo.

For extreme racing the size of the current radiator is not the problem, rather it’s location it accumulates mud up front louvers solve and they could have found a cooler location for the recovery tank BCS solves. In stock form the coolant system has no issues, it stays below 225F as most quads but better yet has over heat engine protection limp modes.

Main thing BRP needs to focus in the near term is the clutch! :rolleyes:

[Sandsjbyz22]

That frame pictured was built by Lonestar in the mid to late nineties for the rotax motor. The whole bike was basically a Honda 250R but with the Rotax engine. I always wanted to ride one and see hot it compared to the R.

[TNT]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/rbl-str1.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/250RFrame2.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide1-8.jpg

If you look at the Rebel and 250r frame you will see small diameter steel tubing and sheet metal any small company can fabricate with a welder and tube bender that lends itself to the 250 size motor.

If you look at the DS frame you will see advanced high strength manufacturing processes and materials just as strong if not stronger in thier application and configuration than steel, several die casting’s, extrusion dies, stretch dies, form blocks, machining, dimpleing, high strength 1/4-5/8 huck bolts requiring special tooling, assembly and sub assy jigs, etc….lending itself to heavier 450 motors. BRP is sister company to Bombardier Aircraft whom builds some of the best business jets in the world. I am sure if they wanted stick built welded tubular atv frames like eveyone else out there for thier motors they go to Lonestar/etc sub them in for a fraction of the cost and structural integrity.

I’d say just off the top of my head the Rebel and 250r frame has 30-50% less structural integrity and associated cost to the DS 450 frame and there is NO WAY the DS frame was designed to a 250 motor….most anyone can see that looking at the photos above, so lets put that rumor to rest unless you hear it straight from a BRP Engineer the motor on your quad was designed to the frame and over all BRP did an excellent job. Outside of the one small area up front, I'm impressed and thats not easy been designing and building much more complicated structures for 30 yrs, around quads 7. DS frame is bad a##!

If I was any good with photoshop I’d put the 250 in the DS450 frame just to get a good laugh! :D :rolleyes:

CFRP Filiment wound next BRP: Bring it! ...time for another chat w/the boys over at Bombarida/LearJet....:cool:

TPR: Go get some 3/4 tubing, a 257 rotax, build a quad make a million is your answer....leave BRP and it's owners alone with hersay and opinion of what the DS 450 should have been..... :blah: I'm sorry but until you do that there is no reason to read your ongoing post year after year of your opinion and infinite knowlege or advice on the subject matter.

I think the question you should ask is; "why do you(TPR) chicken out of such a quad YOU think is such a money maker, go get a bank loan invest put your money where your mouth is....:rolleyes:

[TNT]

Above post has been updated....BRP is awesome for this sport and I don't like reading these stupid post of ppl that think they know this and what should be.......they don't put thier money up like BRP does, they talk sh** it gets old.......TPR you got facts that overpower mine fine lets see them otherwise let it rest and respect the best thing that ever happen to ATV racing!

[ThePhantomRider]

Originally posted by TNT
Above post has been updated....BRP is awesome for this sport and I don't like reading these stupid post of ppl that think they know this and what should be.......they don't put thier money up like BRP does, they talk sh** it gets old.......TPR you got facts that overpower mine fine lets see them otherwise let it rest and respect the best thing that ever happen to ATV racing!

TNT, I respect and understand your love for the DS 450. I was really hyped about it knowing it was going to have a 250 motor in it. Sadly over the last months of development, my information ran dry and when it was released I was stunned that it had a 450, but was hopeful it would work.

You are correct, the motor was designed for the frame...as much as it could have been. You have a head from one motor and a 70's era bottom end. But I dare you, if you were to approach Del Bohlman today, (demoted from his previous post at Can-Am) he will tell you that the DS was designed to be a 250 and that everything, including the weak points you pointed out worked beautifully. Sorry to rain on anyone's parade, but the quad was 60 pounds lighter than it ended up being...that's not all motor but everything else associated to it being placed in there. With the 250, you'd have less frame fatigue and the hips would not crack like they do now.

Jeremy Schell for what it's worth was so disappointed when the 450 showed up because to that point, the 250 he had tested for months was the most complete, incredible quad he'd ridden. Period

TPR

[ThePhantomRider]

Double post edit....

To the comment about such a big frame...The motor currently is wedged into that frame, you want to talk about structure and whatnot, I do not care about the Rebel frame, that is of no consequence.

If you ordered the 250 Rotax sells, all you need to do to get it to fit is fab up some new motor mounts and the swinger pivot and sprocket would line right up. I've spoken to it's developers and testers, the quad was a 250 till the final few months..That's why everything about the quad was rolled out and the motor was last...because it was an afterthought.

Sorry you don't like the truth...but even as the radiator goes, they ran the 250 with that radiator covered in 110 heat in the desert with no problems.

TPR

[TNT]

Trying to envision this story of yours in all my years being in the design process, to change the motor of all things in the last months of release would be absurd, if not impossible! …it make more sense if the motor was heavier to begin with.

Let’s assume that the DS frame was in fact designed by CATIA and NASTRAN, I give BRP the benefit of the doubt, let me explain these two design processes.

NASTRAN – In short develops stresses on structure from input loads, input loads come from test data, stress strain gages placed on the quad is one way with a let’s assume 250 motor. The motor is a huge factor in determining loads and stresses on the frame, huge!

CATIA – 3D solid modeling of manufactured parts and assemblies into solid bodies allowing for interference checks and mass properties or weight manipulation and distribution. The motor again is key in determine Cg’s, roll axis(s), handling qualities….

So let me take some guesses, just some educated ones not that I am a BRP Engineer. Let’s look at the design process starting from a clean sheet. I would think it take me at least a year with two CATIA drivers to model a prototype quad that a test rider could go develop some actual loads for my NASTRAN model. Once I had those loads another ½ year to redesign to the new loads, then retest, redesign, etc, until I thought I had a design…..250 motor design. Again I can’t imagine the frame we see today had a 250 motor in from design day #1, if so BRP was waaaay over thinking and blowing their recovery budget imo. So lets say I got at least two years into development, have my tools designed, die casting’s, extrusion dies, assembly jigs, material procurement, my supply chain to include, metal processing, fasteners, etc …….You get the picture of all the down stream impacts that result from design changes……If you change the motor to add 60 lbs of weight your back to square 1, at least another year of redesign effort, contract and supplier impacts, and on and on….Here again something does not add up, not only the over designed frame but your time frame.

At the time of release with the 250 motor you say, “everything worked beautifully” based on what? 2-3 years field testing that we now? No! You can’t make that statement you lacked a lot of information and field testing.

I don’t understand what good it does to come out here and tell owners that have $9- $15,000 of their hard earned money invested in a quad they love or enjoy, that the frame was designed to a sub par 250 motor and the bottom end motor to 70’s technology……If that’s the case the results below are impossible leaving even more unexplainable as with the rest of your theories and hersay that just does not add up.

Probably cost BRP a few bucks to swap the radiator out to a 1/3 more capacity can’t imagine why they didn’t throw that one in at last minute too??? Hmmmmm? lol! Picture this it's Friday.. Del says forget this CATIA/NASTRAN BS put a 450 in it smaller radiator, scrap the tether and speedometer while your at it......lol! She's done let's go get a brew! :)

1 1 SUZ Dustin Wimmer Center Valley, PA 1 1
2 44 CAN Chad M. Wienen Galena, IL 4 3
3 9 SUZ Josh Creamer North Stoningto, CT 6 2
4 13 CAN John Natalie Jr Houtzdale, PA 3 5
5 20 HON Josh G. Upperman Louisville, OH 2 6

I hope to see Motoworks at Balance in a week maybe they can shed some light or at least get a good laugh too! :D

[400exrider69]

If can-am made a 250cc 2 stroke i'd sale everything i could and have that machine they day it hit my dealers floor
i can only imagine

[joeyds450x]

if i ever blow my motor beyond repair id see if i could get one of these 250 motors and put it in my frame... i think itd be insane!!!


i wish theyd at least make a competitive 250.. then id get one for the girlfriend lol ;)

[TNT]

Originally posted by joeyds450x
if i ever blow my motor beyond repair id see if i could get one of these 250 motors and put it in my frame... i think itd be insane!!!

Well considering as TPR said your bottom end was 40 years old (70's) when you purchased, hmmm wait let me do the math....crunch, crunch....ah shes waaaaaay over do! :D :rolleyes:

What fun! hahahha

[ThePhantomRider]

TNT, I'm not here to fight, AND I greatly respect your background in structural design. I just honestly want to tell you that after the initial testing of a 400 class quad, they realized they wanted to target the YFZ, while appealing to the two stroke crowd and the abandoned Banshee crowd.

When they did the clean sheet of paper approach, they wanted to try to get the 250 grandfathered into the class. That didn't happen. So here's the process.

They wanted the lightest, best handling quad by far in the class. Everything was designed for that motor, and it worked great and they had a couple years at least in development with that motor.

They had to do very little to wedge the 450 into the chassis, but had little time to put it back through the paces to work out the new issues. They panicked because the 250 would not be allowed into the class AND KTM beat them to the release otherwise they would have tested it further. They got caught in a no win situation so they pressed forward in hopes everything would hold up.

Now I can tell you that the small 250 fit nice in there and there was plenty of room for several types of exhausts to be used.

As for 70's tech, they took a head off the Aprillia and matched it to a bottom end that is rudimentary at best...some of the developers calling it 70's era tech. There have been several things race teams have done to work on the clutch and tranny to make it more respectable but had they built the motor with the quad from day one....none of these issues would have come about.

Say what you want, I wish I could buy Can-Am's initial vision...Till then I'm going to save my pennies to get a roller then send it out and have the 250 rotax dropped in.

That will be a good day.

TPR

[TNT]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
TNT, I'm not here to fight, AND I greatly respect your background in structural design. I just honestly want to tell you that after the initial testing of a 400 class quad, they realized they wanted to target the YFZ, while appealing to the two stroke crowd and the abandoned Banshee crowd.

When they did the clean sheet of paper approach, they wanted to try to get the 250 grandfathered into the class. That didn't happen. So here's the process.

They wanted the lightest, best handling quad by far in the class. Everything was designed for that motor, and it worked great and they had a couple years at least in development with that motor.

They had to do very little to wedge the 450 into the chassis, but had little time to put it back through the paces to work out the new issues. They panicked because the 250 would not be allowed into the class AND KTM beat them to the release otherwise they would have tested it further. They got caught in a no win situation so they pressed forward in hopes everything would hold up.

Now I can tell you that the small 250 fit nice in there and there was plenty of room for several types of exhausts to be used.

As for 70's tech, they took a head off the Aprillia and matched it to a bottom end that is rudimentary at best...some of the developers calling it 70's era tech. There have been several things race teams have done to work on the clutch and tranny to make it more respectable but had they built the motor with the quad from day one....none of these issues would have come about.

Say what you want, I wish I could buy Can-Am's initial vision...Till then I'm going to save my pennies to get a roller then send it out and have the 250 rotax dropped in.

That will be a good day.

TPR

If there’s any truth in your accusations here BRP could be facing a class action law suit, you may be subpoena in. The initial sales video and marketing of "5 years of developing a 450 quad designed by advanced CATIA and NASTRAN", are you saying that was all a lie? False advertising?

If you feel that strongly of a profit I am sure you could present a busniess case to a bank for a loan.

I'm not wanting a fight either just the truth, I must say bold move on your part your accusations against such a large company with deep pockets. If I know what you claim to as truth, I'd probably keep it to myself rather than spread all over a legally binding website unless you are perhaps barking up the wrong tree? Be carefull my freind. :D

[florentino]

2 strokes suck on the track for mx. power means nada.
when i started to race i wanted the fastes motor out there.
now to me its all in the suspencion and rider fatige.
my race yfz 450 yamaha its like 15 hp more then the ds. and some how my holeshots where allways on the stock ds. cause i can get so power to the ground. now days i am happy with the ds motor. if they only had a better frame

[ThePhantomRider]

I can post accusations all day long. However you'll not see them do anything to me because of this. Simply put, I tell the truth and yes they did spend 5 years in development but they didn't go so far as to say they were building the quad as a 450 from day one. Not only that but it really doesn't matter because they could have developed it with a 50cc engine at first. They developed a high performance atv from day one, they just decided to pull the motor and go with the rest of the lemmings and do a 450.

The 250 made more than enough power to compete with the 450's...oil injected they were not restricted by EPA regs as their emissions were equal or better than the existing 450's. They had so much money wrapped in this they had to go forward with the project even though it was not their original vision.

My point in all of this was simple...let the people know that they do have an option if they tire from the 450 motor as they can order the 250 from Rotax and the only real custom piece would be an exhaust and motor mounts.

As for being as fast as the 450's...reality is EPA killed the old 250's but in MX the racers held on to them as long as they could before their sponsors, team or time forced them to change. And if you think the 350 pound DS is fun, take off 60 pounds and tell me how much better, faster and less fatiguing it is to ride. I mean if power was truly king, the 500's would have been the main event, not the 250's. Let's not even get into rebuild costs...

Why do MX guys shave as much weight off their bikes as possible? Because each pound adds up to fatigue that much faster, slows handling and reaction times and impedes maneuverability.

I love Can-Am's savvy, I would own a DS 450 as a play bike but wish they did or still even could offer it with the 250. They went out with the best intentions and had to settle for 75% of their vision.

Hopefully when the economy turns around they can release their Polaris RZR side by side challenger.


TPR

[ThePhantomRider]

Originally posted by florentino
2 strokes suck on the track for mx. power means nada.
when i started to race i wanted the fastes motor out there.
now to me its all in the suspencion and rider fatige.
my race yfz 450 yamaha its like 15 hp more then the ds. and some how my holeshots where allways on the stock ds. cause i can get so power to the ground. now days i am happy with the ds motor. if they only had a better frame

You actually make my argument there. Power to the ground, rider fatigue, frame issues, those were all dealt non issues with the 250.


TPR

[ThePhantomRider]

Finally, in watching back the DS450 launch website, the motor was last discussed and if you listen, Del said, once we had the frame suspension and the whole package done it was up to Rotax to develop the power plant. That's because they had already designed everything else and sorry, but generally the motor is designed with the quad.

Plus the whole mass centralization thing was even better where the 250 sat. Still works with the 450 but it's lower and more centered with the 250.

http://www.can-amds450.com/International.aspx?language=en-CA

TPR

[TNT]

What we do to help you all understand what BRP meant is create a block in CATIA of the motor and all other features that have a weight allocated to it in the initial design phase. CATIA allows one to assign a density to the block that allocates space, and as you devolope the design will generate unsprung and spring axis/cg's/moment of inertias(force xs distances) of all the masses on the quad around those axis... through advanced (kinematics)motion) functions the roll can be modeled in real time seen and modified, you can even model 80% man/women for ergo studies put them on the quad to see how the average person will react to the quad......thats what is meant by "mass properties".....If you lower the engine weight by 60lbs and drop it down 1/4", your already high CG goes through the roof(do the math force times distance) back to square one to try and find other masses to offset this new 250 cg and redistribute it. If you do not keep the majority of weight centralized near the CG and have higher mass areas relative to far distances away(ie. arms) the delta can cause flex and bending moments.

Untill one goes through this motion, all they can do is sit back and speculate what if this and that, hersay! I found it interesting the ATV on demand shoot out about every rider complained of too high a CG and lacking solididity in corners(mass) compared to the ltr per-say.

If you go read the thread on HQ I along with other engineers attempted to explain to test riders and owners that there is more to it than meets the eye, unsprung CG, vs sprung CG, and the riders CG......In any case, the current design does not lend itself to less mass at the skid imo the cg would be too high and we'd see more flex in the frame from less engine stability(mass). Lighter AL arms and a quad less than 72" would maybe work but would need the same amount of feild testing as the current 450 to draw conclusions of it's proclaimed superiority.

Mistake, mishap, call it what you will, the current frame, motor, and quad for the most part are well put together, not perfect but good job BRP.

[LTR450_#67]

I showed my brother this thread and he said he called CanAm/BRP back in late '06 and he said they told him they were in the process of making a Hi-perf. atv offering it in the 450 or a 300cc 2stroke. He really wanted the 2 stroke pretty bad!

[dustin_j]

If the work was all done, will CanAm release the 250 2 stroke version to compete in EDT's, since 2 strokes are allowed again?

[TNT]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Finally, in watching back the DS450 launch website, the motor was last discussed and if you listen, Del said, once we had the frame suspension and the whole package done it was up to Rotax to develop the power plant. That's because they had already designed everything else and sorry, but generally the motor is designed with the quad.

Plus the whole mass centralization thing was even better where the 250 sat. Still works with the 450 but it's lower and more centered with the 250.

http://www.can-amds450.com/International.aspx?language=en-CA

TPR

Finally got to watch all that again, 2001 thats alot of R&D time so I am assuming they used FEM to it's capacity. FEM as I said above needs load inputs...We have Engineers that specialize in test and load development models that feed FEM and generate those colors on the surface or stresses that you see in the video. Without loads FEM is pretty much useless! So typically you build a prototype product like this as close to final confiuration as possible including the motor then test and develop loads from different tracks, riders, etc...hard to do and you rarely capture it all then you go back to the FEM model several times with updates you redesign to. When you redesign that changes loads so you prototype again restest untill a point that the structure shows good with weight and other criteria the boss w/the cash demands shown in the video, or you throw in the towel and cut your losses before you go to production and loose your shirt 100s of times more.

That video sold me on the quad, I was impressed and had no idea prior to this that the quad industry used these advanced design tools as I do, I figured autocad or something, so don't mean to be so hard on you TPR it's little upsetting when I put up that much money to be told it was all a lie. :mad:

[ThePhantomRider]

TNT, in reality, when the KTM was launched, Can-Am flirted with the idea of just scrapping the program completely. However since so much time and money had already been spent, they had to go forward....Nevermind that with all their claims in the video, the KTM came in at the same weight. Another punch in the gut with a traditional Chrome Mo frame.

The final nail in the coffin to this story was that initially when they decided to go with a 450 4....the motor they were going to license was the KTM. They just couldn't bring themselves to share a power plant with Polaris...too much explanation. So when that fell out, KTM went ahead and built their own.

Shame of it all was the motor they wound up with would have been last on their list.

Trust me, I love everything else about the DS...except the motor. Hell the reason the race teams all use outside motor builders was because the first year they tried to use Rotax guys...They struggled because the motor was slapped together and not built from the ground up like their other motors.

TPR

[TNT]

We flirted with the KTM too, got a better deal on the DS. From what I have heard straight up from KTM motors and trannies from those that own them the Rotax was the better choice..... It's harder to get power out of and it has it's issues, but not as bad as KTM, LTR, some others.....Knowing what I do today about EFI will never own another carb motor, PC 5 throttle and power response unmatched by far, not to metion all the other single point troubleshooting, engine management, protection modes, history, computer related perks.

Speaking of Rotax, this case issue is an example of a poor Rotax design where they put too small of a casted radius, if you look at the failure it appears to be related to the engine bolt vibration and overall fatigue faiure. Now BRP, heres a pyramid/triangular shape of alumimun thats in tension all right pulling away from the rest of the casting...some of the lateral torque could be root caused by rear engine bolt locations @ the engine to the frame that are not in-line to one another, check your frame jigs and the alighment of the Rotax sleeve axis to it.

They put a steel sleeve in the engine bolt area, we pulled ours today it was in loose so we loc-tite it in and will build that radius up with Devcon to prevent this.

To redesign this properly would mean to move the rear engine bolt further to the rear since there is little room to an adjacent radius to increase the failed radius. The crack starts adjacent to the engine bolt hole, once it starts there is no stopping it in some cases.

Pull your motor, 08, 09's, 2010, make sure the sleeve is bonded in and build the radius up. If you don't have the sleeve get the update.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/BadCrackedCase2.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/BADCrackedCASE1.jpg

[blaster99]

:eek2: holy crap! Did this just happen when riding? Or was the chain too tight causing tension?

[TNT]

Originally posted by blaster99
:eek2: holy crap! Did this just happen when riding? Or was the chain too tight causing tension?

Dunno got it from HQ, nasty! You better hope your JB weld holds up! :eek2:

I'd say no to the chain, if it's putting load on the case something is drastically wrong! The crack is coming from rotation laterally of the rear engine bolt to the rear causing the tension(pulling away) crack you see....cracks are always in tension....I'd imagine the other side of the bolt/engine is in compression.

Thats why I said something is not lined up, center lines of the frame, engine bolt, drive gear, and that may be accumilated tolerances since not all quads see this failure.

The pourous casting, once a crack starts it will continue. If I had a crack I'd weld it but that means spliting the cases.....if it were minor I'd surface only stop drill the crack ends then Devcon it until next time I split my cases then weld it.

[ThePhantomRider]

Several years before BMW came out with their G450x off road bike myself and another person in the ATV industry had taken the DS 650 and ripped it apart.

We started by shrinking it down to a size closer to the 450 class, and I had come up with the idea to...(wait, another damn earthquake) mount the swingarm pivot on the same axis as the countershaft sprocket (BMW now uses this.)

Along with that I designed a strong, light billet mini rack steering system (not like the Polaris mess) to eliminate bump steer. With everything mocked up we had up to 18 inches of travel front and rear and were developing a pushrod, bellcrank linkage similar to the old Full Floater that was being designed by an Indycar suspension guru...

Like I said, sadly we ran out of time and money but we were going to get it down in the 420 pound range with the DS650 motor...Man I wish we finished that thing!!!

TPR

[Aussie_YFZ450]

Originally posted by blaster99
:eek2: holy crap! Did this just happen when riding? Or was the chain too tight causing tension?

The thread on HQ says that his chain guide bolts broke and the guide got caught in the chain/sprocket, effectively pulling the front sprocket rearward and breaking the case.

I've seen this happen when a rock was picked up in the rear sprocket. It didnt break the cases to this extent, but it cracked badly in the same area.

[TNT]

TPR – your idea of combining axis sounds interesting and would eliminate some issues, we got to stop giving our ideas away ehh. I heard today Brp’s fix is to replace the steel bushing w/ a rubber isolator. Seems to me they be better off getting Rotax to align the two axis to one another better by use of Geometric Dimensioning and Tolerance (GD&T), use Master Gage Tooling or a simple Go-no-Go gage that picks up the two engine axis and sets them to the frame axis by locating pins, rear sproket in a Final Assembly Jig(FAJ). :rolleyes: That be less recurring cost and a higher quality product.

I remember about 9 months ago I was being asked if I thought this engine bolt sleeve would help the case cracking and I said yes it would help, since the early 08 had no bushing it was the fix now rubber…..seems like the same guess work as the clutch update that didn’t work….Sometimes its best to just stop band aiding get the proper tooling, billet clutch basket, redesign, consolidate parts like you said.

[kellymi]

Actually the old Polaris sports had the sprocket and swing-arm pivot on the same axis also. They called it concentric drive I think. My old sport was that way.

[ZX11]

Actually the old Polaris sports had the sprocket and swing-arm pivot on the same axis also. They called it concentric drive I think. My old sport was that way.

What does this mean? Same axis while riders weight is on it. I thought changing sprocket, pivot, and rear axel alignment was how bike manufacturers controled squat effects under acceleration.

That is a sad picture of someone's case. The Kawasaki forum has someone with the same chain pulled apart case event. I think I will leave my chain on the loose side.

[TNT]

Were talking about the axis between the bushing you see in the photo above(which is the rear engine mount/swing) vs the axis you see at the gear or front sprocket...if you measure that distance ok, and multiple it times the amount of torque we get at the sprocket(not wheel) from the motor and add rider weight as a component force you can calculate the amount of moment arm bending at the engine bolt offset, simple enough.

Now BRP released the rear engine bolt casting, there is no way could take the load later added a stainless bushing in pic above and we still see cracks, the same crack that you see above but this is worse...now BRP adds a rubber isolater to be released soon rumor has it.

Typical crack development.....look close at the small casted radius behind the sproket between the engine bolt, once it starts if you don't do something it will rip it to shreds!

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/cracked_case_2.jpg

Put the two axis together eliminates the bending moment ok, but how effective will the travel be a few inches back and consider all the combined loads of a concentric axis....major redesign of the motor, swing, quad. My guess is the concentric axis does a better job.

Sorry TPR I told you were barking up the wrong tree, you have now been sucked into a ATRiders Rotax weight reduction program forget the 250 ha!...it never fails that always happens shaving weight after the fact.

This design as TPR stated is 70's...I can not tell you all how often problems like this are copied from unit-to-unit with little thought and ol school mentality' "if it ain't broke don't fix it". Well the fallacy is most of these problems are not captured and fed back up to the food chain much of which has managers that make decisions not knowing any better(watch the BRP video again the boss where did he mention quality and surpassing industry standards?), or are schedule and budget driven, or just never get to the designer, thats why it takes YEARS to get a good design due to a lack of understanding of the problems....you can see BRP and others struggling with the quality issues that stems from a good design and/or corrective action.

Alway's reconsider existing older industry designs and standards my advice....I was just in this situation today my answer was "don't care where that design comes from it sucks!, it's not producable in our shop!..change it period!! " :D

[John Noftsinger]

If can-am really wanted to shake things up they would have put aprilla,s V-twin 450 4-stroke in its frame and had a 70hp stock hp quad .That would have crushed all quads!

[TNT]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
If can-am really wanted to shake things up they would have put aprilla,s V-twin 450 4-stroke in its frame and had a 70hp stock hp quad .That would have crushed all quads!

Ya man I looked through the AMA rule book dont see where it says no twin. The frame would take it, heard too they redesigned the one frame member up front.....thickened like I suggested.

BRP keep it up listen to your consumers and thier issues and get them to your design/MRB team you will corner this market. :D

I have no regrets buying the 09 quad as is we are turning it into a racing machine, know the issues which are minor and I know what to do. Might even get me a 2010 or see what happens in 2011, looking for some big better design changes, and yes I am holding you too a higher standard, like the bike industy/w more profits, we will see soon as the economy recovers and I will hold you to those same standards let consumers know if you met them or not consider yourselves lucky most companies don't get the feedback :devil:


2011 beware I know good design changes so get them right do lost of testing. :eek2:

[ThePhantomRider]

You're right TNT, keep all the fixes to ourselves...LOL

The whole project went down like this...We were going to have a local company make a new drive/gear setup, place the sprocket in the DS650 in the center of the swing arm (like the Honda 700xx) With the swing arm pivot on the same axis as the sprocket but without having to pass through the sprocket itself...basically a lower A-Arm with two bolts, but beefy.

We then had the push rod/bell crank linkage made out of billet, the front end had plus 5 arms but kept the width to 50" because of the narrowed frame rails and rack steering.

We then decided the fuel tank would start midway where the original tank would be and go down to where the airbox was and around the linkage area....it was actually an aluminum tank with fuel cell racing bladder inside. Finally the airbox was in the upper tank with a down draft configuration, EFI the works.

It was going to be the desert racing weapon but alas, time and money ran out....Maybe someday....

TPR

[THEMACHINIST]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
If can-am really wanted to shake things up they would have put aprilla,s V-twin 450 4-stroke in its frame and had a 70hp stock hp quad .That would have crushed all quads!

heeellllllll ya that would be THA atv :devil: :) :macho

[TNT]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
With the swing arm pivot on the same axis as the sprocket but without having to pass through the sprocket itself...basically a lower A-Arm with two bolts, but beefy.


heeellllllll ya that would be THA atv :devil: :) :macho

[dustin_j]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
You're right TNT, keep all the fixes to ourselves...LOL

The whole project went down like this...We were going to have a local company make a new drive/gear setup, place the sprocket in the DS650 in the center of the swing arm (like the Honda 700xx) With the swing arm pivot on the same axis as the sprocket but without having to pass through the sprocket itself...basically a lower A-Arm with two bolts, but beefy.

We then had the push rod/bell crank linkage made out of billet, the front end had plus 5 arms but kept the width to 50" because of the narrowed frame rails and rack steering.

We then decided the fuel tank would start midway where the original tank would be and go down to where the airbox was and around the linkage area....it was actually an aluminum tank with fuel cell racing bladder inside. Finally the airbox was in the upper tank with a down draft configuration, EFI the works.

It was going to be the desert racing weapon but alas, time and money ran out....Maybe someday....

TPR

Sounds sweet, have any pics you'd care to share? I'd be interested to see how the swingarm turned out; awesome idea!

[ThePhantomRider]

I'll find out if the mock up chassis is still around. We used a DS race frame that had been retired to cut and work to keep the frame as narrow as possible while eliminating the need for the single pivot bolt. That just became an engine mount.

Another experiment was doing an actual upper and lower control arm in place of a swingarm. The pivots were on the same vertical axis as the sprocket, just above and below equally. The bearing carrier also "floated" like a spindle with the upper and lower control arms bolted through the top and bottom. Allowed for a ton of up and down travel but in the end we felt it may be too many moving parts so we were going to do an oval tube swinger with the standard attached carrier pivoting outside the sprocket.

Because of the "Full Floater" style linkage it used a shorter shock because of the leverage ratios being worked out. We really thought that the thing would scream with just a nicely breathed on DS 650 motor.


If I can't find a pic, I'll shop something up to give you the gist of it.

TPR

[TNT]

Not sure but I think what TPR is talking is illustrated below by stick diagram where the carraige axle floats creating a caster adjustment effect with repect to the drive gear...If not interesting concept anyway. :D

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/CASTERSWING.jpg

The green is the carriage it would float around the round axis shown by adjusting the upper and lower control arms.

[ThePhantomRider]

Close... where the front of the arms attach to the frame are located directly above and below the sprocket. So just like a-arms, you have upper and lower mounts. This was only before we figured out how to mount the swinger on the countershaft axis.

It reduced chain tension issues a bunch but again was just too complicated.

TPR

[John Noftsinger]

There,s a no twin cylinder rule for racing ,what article said ! but if they changed rule it would get other brands to do same too keep up ,Cause a lightweight v-twin 450 motor would be so sweet wouldn,t need a too mod motor would have all the power you need for track & trail !Aprilla has dirtbike with this motor in it but you,ll never see one at track cause it,s a V-twin. Go to Aprila.com look up RXV 4.5-5.5 dirtbike worlds smallest compact V-twin 450-550 motors in enduro racebikes !

[John Noftsinger]

There,s a guy in the hybred section that probably be building one of the few V-twin 450 aprila motor in a lonestar yfz frame ,check it out!

[Derrick Adams]

I can honestly say, without a doubt that if Can-Am had made this bike with the 2 stroke engine there would be one sitting in my garage right now. Matter of fact, i'd be loading it in the trailer right now to head to the Nationals instead of my 250R.

Also, I would seriously consider buying a new 450 and plucking the engine to swap in this 257 2-stroke, IF I could find a new one in the U.S. and I knew I could get parts to keep it maintained without too much trouble.

I LOVE the looks and design of the DS450, just don't like the engine.

[florentino]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I can honestly say, without a doubt that if Can-Am had made this bike with the 2 stroke engine there would be one sitting in my garage right now. Matter of fact, i'd be loading it in the trailer right now to head to the Nationals instead of my 250R.

Also, I would seriously consider buying a new 450 and plucking the engine to swap in this 257 2-stroke, IF I could find a new one in the U.S. and I knew I could get parts to keep it maintained without too much trouble.

I LOVE the looks and design of the DS450, just don't like the engine.

the motor is not that bad at all. its the frame

[Langbolt]

DGS posted this pic in the HYBRID section....BRP really did build a 2-Stroke......such a shame they didn't offer it to the public.

:(

[ds19]

BRP would never design the altec frame for a two stroke engine because they are OBSOLETE!
BRP wanted to get into racing and two strokes are not for racing. How many 2 strokes do you see in the pro class at the nationals or the pro gncc. NONE They are obsolete! Four strokes are better in anyway and the ds450 is a great machine the frame is one of the best out. TRx frames are junk the new yfzr frames are junk the only other 450 frame that doesn't really break is the kawi 450. If your going to own a RACE quad expect things to break because thats the nature of RACING anything!

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by florentino
2 strocks are fun but all that power is use less. even if it had 100hp i know some 250s can make more then that but the in the track the 4 stroke is king. now with the FI even better.
i have a 250r and yes they are fun, but a stock 450 ltr will blow a full race trx 250r in a track with big jumps and alot of turns.
i may race my 250 soon just to see how i do

im sorry but are you that stupid?! if a 250r was built and had 100 HP and it was a good solid power curve like they can be built to that thing would OWN THE **** OUT OF ANY 4 stroke out there!

I will buy a 2 stroke any day over a 4 stroke due to the cost of rebuilding them

also tell me who is funding all the nationals now days? im pretty sure the only one left is Can Am that really amounts to anything.... how many of the factory teams give out the full rides like they did back in the 250r and hybred days? not many.

its only a waiting game before all the factorys run out of money and cant keep the production rules around anymore. Honda hasn't released a NEW 450r since when? 09?


DS 19 they dont run 2 strokes because they have gay productions rules now, its not that guys dont want to run them... also if you talk to all the pros they will talk your ears off about the 2 strokes and hybrids...



as soon as there is a NEW 2 stroke i'll buy on and race it... and compare it to my R..

[DGS]

I am building a DS250 rotax hybrid...TPR is right, the DS frame was designed for a 2 stroke. The pic you see of the ds 250 i posted is a picture off the press release video i snapped while watching it. It was under developement since 2001 and was also tested with a ktm 525 and ltz400 motor. The 250 out performed them both. The only real problems were traction but with an adjustable powervalve, power can be moved through the power curve and made it easier to get the power to the ground. Once Can Am heard about the TRX450 and YFZ450, they scrapped the 2 stroke and got rotax to develope the 4 stroke.

Can Am is still developing a 2 stroke but with Direct Injection aka 800R DI engine in there snowmobile. Slated as a 2012/2013 model. Cleaner burning, less noise, easier maintenance and more cost effective to run. All the big manufactures are developing 2 stroke tech except honda. TM are releasing a 2012 125 with Direct Injection. KTM are developing DI with Orbital Ijection, company in Australia.....@strokes are coming back and in a big way...be preparred

The 2 stroke bolts in petrry easy with 2 top hat spacers for the swing arm bolt and front engine mounts. The bike is at the pipe builders for a custom exhaust. I will post more when i can in the hybrid section

[DGS]

Mount pic

[ThePhantomRider]

Good for you, when it's done, weigh that sucker when you're done, should be right around 300 pounds.

Also it was designed to be able to use a Midrage or top end pipe as well, I think they tried different ESR pipes if I'm not mistaken.

TPR

[ThePhantomRider]

Originally posted by ds19
BRP would never design the altec frame for a two stroke engine because they are OBSOLETE!
BRP wanted to get into racing and two strokes are not for racing. How many 2 strokes do you see in the pro class at the nationals or the pro gncc. NONE They are obsolete! Four strokes are better in anyway and the ds450 is a great machine the frame is one of the best out. TRx frames are junk the new yfzr frames are junk the only other 450 frame that doesn't really break is the kawi 450. If your going to own a RACE quad expect things to break because thats the nature of RACING anything!

That is 100% inaccurate. BRP WAS going to push the issue with the ATVA but decided to ditch the motor and throw in the frankenstein we ended up with.

The frame is great but designed for a lighter less torquey motor, that's why the initial issues came up.

I spoke to people who tested the original quad and they were upset when they went 450.

TPR

[JoePA]

Here is a link to BRP to tell them what YOU want. You can bet your butts I told them I want a 2 stroke race quad!! Lets hope it happens.



http://www.canamoffroad.com/ca/community/my-canam-idea.aspx

It would be great to have a choice at the dealers. I would put money on it that if BRP came out with a 2 stroke in their line up you would see some people lining up at the dealers doors to purchase! I know I would be one!

[oachs83]

I did the same :cool:

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by oachs83
I did the same :cool:

pics? :D

I LOVE DGS' build, cream my pants everytime i look at it, and how well he put it together.:eek:

[oachs83]

Originally posted by chronicsmoke
pics? :D

I LOVE DGS' build, cream my pants everytime i look at it, and how well he put it together.:eek:


No no no no, I meant I wrote BRP. I wish I had a sweet *** modern 2 stroke like his build.

[coryatver]

If they put the ETEC motor in a quad I will have to have one! And I am sure I won't be the only one! Somone said the DS has the strongest frame??? are you kidding me? The front end breaks in half even when you put on the brace everyone sells. Not to mention foot peg frame mounts snapping off. I am sure they will take what they learned with the current model and fix it for the next one.

[JoePA]

The responce sounds positiv efor a moden 2 stoke and please let Can-am know.

Don't want to see the 4 stroke go away but would love to see both side by side on the showroom floor and the race track!

[chronicsmoke]

Originally posted by JoePA
Don't want to see the 4 stroke go away but would love to see both side by side on the showroom floor and the race track!


X2!!

[triplejay30349]

i dont know if anyone saw the finished conversion that DGS did but it sure looks like a 250 2T was supposed to be in there to me.

here is b4

[triplejay30349]

here is after

[triplejay30349]

if can-am put these on a showroom floor for >8.5k i would be all over it

[JoePA]

Does anyone know someone at Can-Am so we can show them what WE want??!!!

[fast rap]

post a vid on you tube of this bike!!!

[DGS]

Here is the link to a video from a race i did...short but will get another 1 soon..

http://youtu.be/QsLCl8XEQSE

[triplejay30349]

Originally posted by DGS
Here is the link to a video from a race i did...short but will get another 1 soon..

http://youtu.be/QsLCl8XEQSE

More pleeeezzz!

[yfz0688]

www.250superkarts.com/FORSALE-Engines.htm

found this website for the rotax 257 dont know if any of these ads are in the states but a couple of the numbers show up as if they are in the states.

[ThePhantomRider]

So now you see, Can Am HAD the best machine ready to launch but caved in to those around them. Sad. JoePA, even if you know someone at Can Am, they already know people would have ate this thing up, but sometimes, corprate wins.


TPR

[Langbolt]

The Only Distributor that ROTAX lists in the USA is in Three Oaks, Michigan

MAXSPEED GROUP INC.
105 N. Elm Street,
Three Oaks, MI
49128

Mr. Garry Lobaugh
PHONE: 001/269 756 7444
FAX: 001/269 756 9138
E-MAIL: mrp@qtm.net
WEB-PAGE: www.gorotax.com

I wonder if they have any 257's kickin' around ?

:devil:

[ThePhantomRider]

Has Can-Am finally gotten rid of that Pig 450 motor and put in the proper 250? Nope...bummer, it's like putting a iron block V8 from the 70's into a 458 Italia....

TPR

[florentino]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
Has Can-Am finally gotten rid of that Pig 450 motor and put in the proper 250? Nope...bummer, it's like putting a iron block V8 from the 70's into a 458 Italia....

TPR 2012 crf450 is the answer.
THE 2 STROKE POWER BAND WILL NEVER BEAT A 4 STROKE FOR MX RACING. IT'S NOT THE POWER YOU MAKE.
IT'S TIME TO MOVE ON.

[Quinn4]

I would have to agree with florinteno, the two stroke has been dead for so long most guys don't know how to ride one to get the most out of it. I ride my brothers esr 330 and he tells me feather the clutch, tap the brake, Rev it up, dump the clutch. Sorry man id rather get on a modern for stroke and hit the gas lol

[gregoryeaston]

I bet most of these two stroke guys bashing on the ds450 have never even ridden a built ds450 cause the power comes on like a two smoke in this motor.
As far as the frame goes ill take a frame in which i never have to weld to fix, just replace the bad part and go.
And the cost of rebuilding a two stroke compared to a 4 stroke is closer then its ever been. But what you guy forget is that you 2t bikes have rebuilds way more often then 4t guys. So even if it was cheaper your going to spend it anyways.
Also to the guys who say its easier to be fast on a 2t then a thumper on a mx track.... Thats just not true. The fact of the matter is that 4t quad are so easy to go faster longer , and thats why nobody pro or not really races 2t's anymore bottom end power is king when you have to clear huge jumps out of a berm.
Listen i love just as much as the next guy to rip a two smoker and in the day they where king. But not anymore and even if can am builds a 2t quad "which would be cool" its not going to happen so dont worrier about and just make one.

[florentino]

first it was 2 strokes then 4 strokes then FI

smooth power all the way.

most full blown 250r's can not keep up with the new stock quads.

i would like to know if can am , honda and suzuki are going to get a new model.

it looks like polaris and ktm are now old quads.

is honda ever going to upgrade ?

whats the deal with the ltr?

and i would like to know. ?hows the new can am with fox vs the kyb shocks?

have you notice how many hybrids are out there.

i can see good things for a ds drag honda motor for the dunes but not for mx.

[venom108]

There's never gonna be a winner for 4t in that arguement with a two stroke guy. Four strokes usually only feel slower cause it doesn't have that"snap" of power. barely ever using the clutch, no fouled plugs, getting 100+ hours out of a well taken engine is awesome. The can am motor could drop 20lbs but its darn near bullet proof. Can am would of sold a lot at the beginning but people are lazy anymore...why do you think 400ex's still sell. Most people are weekend warriors not racers.

[ah665]

So this debate is still going on, yet Can-am's 450 have the current #1 plate in National MX. Lol. I doubt Can-am would go against the grain that much, considering where the ATV and Dirt bike industry is. A 250 2stroke would be cool, but so would a 3-wheeler, but I highly doubt we will see either one any time soon.

[triplejay30349]

Originally posted by florentino

most full blown 250r's can not keep up with the new stock quads.


LOL! Yeah with an idiot riding the R. Please don't ever say that out loud again.

[ThePhantomRider]

We know they will never go back to a 250 smoker....

As for if it could have kept up with the new 450's....well let's say this, if it were pound for pound equals you'd be right.

The key was this, The DS is what, 350 pounds? During testing with the 250, it was 300 pounds, and as the testers said, was the fastest, lightest, easiest quad to ride fast. They could whip it almost like a two wheeler and ride it longer with less fatigue than any 4 stroke out there.

That said, I love the new 450's, and after all these years of working and money they've made the DS the front runner but that's also because it's on the most advanced chassis on the market.

So the path to the DS is as follows....a 400ex/z400 challenger, a 400cc twin two stroke to take up the market space of the retired Banshee, a 250 smoker with the Altec chassis designed around it to finally doing a last minute swap to a underdeveloped 450 they have been able to work to make a winner.

TPR

[florentino]

A 2012 crf 450 on a ds. Would be even better

[venom108]

I wish they would throw a 2-stroke in there just so I could finally see the old school 250r guys shut up about how great their quads are. It's retarded how competition bikes don't have to pass epa rules but every quad does. I'm pretty sure that a direct injected engine is more expensive than your basic FI engine.

[GO OVRIT]

Originally posted by venom108
I wish they would throw a 2-stroke in there just so I could finally see the old school 250r guys shut up about how great their quads are. It's retarded how competition bikes don't have to pass epa rules but every quad does. I'm pretty sure that a direct injected engine is more expensive than your basic FI engine.

Wow... I guess us old school 250r guys that also have over-priced 4 strokes in the garage just can't tell the difference. I'll admit that my DS is a great quad, but when its time to quit playing around and race, it stays home and I'm THE "R".

[JoePA]

Old school 250R guy here and I can tell you this..my old *** machine still puts a whoopin on the new quads. I've brought home several wins as well as a few decent finishes. If Can-am did come out with a DFI Etec DS sport quad it would be deadly! Light weight, amazing power, cheaper to maintain and rebuild. I would never get rid of the 450 as people just like a 4 stroke...nothing wrong with that but in the end its all about $$$ and never about what we want. Look back to the mid to late 80's, there were so many models on the dealer floor to choose from it was crazy. Now we just pay $10,000 for a very small selection.

I'll stick with my R till Can-am comes out with a smoker and I'd they don't.....It will just keep kickin *** on the track for another 20+ years!!!

[scotturban]

Originally posted by Quinn4
I would have to agree with florinteno, the two stroke has been dead for so long most guys don't know how to ride one to get the most out of it. I ride my brothers esr 330 and he tells me feather the clutch, tap the brake, Rev it up, dump the clutch. Sorry man id rather get on a modern for stroke and hit the gas lol

Well put.. I would like a two stroke for one reason, Easier/Cheaper to work on.... Other than that...

[ThePhantomRider]

Someone dig up Jeremy Schell and ask him what he thought of the DS he was testing with the 250 in it vs. the 450. It's been long enough, I'm sure he can talk now.

TPR

[venom108]

unless it was a 300cc smoker it wouldn't compete with the 450's. You can argue all you want but even MXA doesn't throw the ktm 250 in the mix when it comes to the 450 shootout. The AMA needs to change the rules so that you can run a 250 2-stroke in the 250 class and run up to a 450 2-stroke in the 450 class but factory teams won't allow this cause they would get their asses handed to them by privateers. It's also funny to read all these 250r guys saying how they still beat the 450 guys... most of the 250r's that are still racing can't be called a 250r. most of them have different chassis, and 330 motor kits in them.

[JoePA]

Its true and he loved it! it was light and quick. It was only a 250 though. I asked Can-am if they would make a 2 stroke quad int he future using Etec injection, custom maps and the answer i got....Never going to happen. LOL

[KFX 450]

Just wanted to say if Can Am offered the 250 2 stroke I would buy one ASAP. That said I would also buy any KFX or YFZ-250 2 stroke off the showroom floor.

Yes the 450 wave is here and here to stay! I am loving my first 450, it is much better than I thought as a long time 2 stroke only dieheart!

I do have a nice CR500 engine on the shelf, I am thinking about doing a hybrid but worried about vibs....

[JoePA]

I asked Can-Am that as well. Just put the rotax 250 smoker ingine in, make it a carb and call it a day. Simple, cheap and a blast to ride. I think it would make a great platform for any rider. I'm with you..if any of the manufatures brought back a sport model 2 stroke I would buy it in a heartbeat. The 450's are nice with some amazing power for stock but some of us want something different...and cheaper!

A lot of people tried the cr500 swap with little success with keeping the vibes down. Six5Design has one in the workls now but I don't think he will calm the vibes. I think the olnly way to really keep them in check is to have more bracing than less for the engine, really clamp that sucker in there then run a good antivibe stem and flex bars. Keep an eye on the Six5Design to see if he does in fact beat the vibe issue with the 500.