carbon fiber frames...

[jcs003]

i have been hearing rumors about carbon fiber frames in the aftermarket. anyone have any info on this.

http://www.autodealsite.com/view.php-aid=3.htm

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/02/07/carbon-fiber-motorcycle-frames/

[Ralph]

Id be very interested to see how they achieve this.

I am now taking my second class on composites and I know it would not be an easy task. It is something I have pondered about myself for a while now.

[axellmusic19]

After working with high quality carbon and kevlar and hybrid lay-ups and compressions, I'd say that the frame would have to be very curved in the front and rear so there is extra space and material needed there. Also the alluminum or titanium or stainless fittings needed to secure things like engines, swingarms, and etc would be a difficult manufacturing process not the mention the added weight. I know how light carbon is and its crazy light, but I can't see it being that much better unless it's a form of OCLV with at least 6k-12k fiber and on a minimal ATV. I'm in favor and would love to try it, that is, if I knew what would happen if it shatters.

[SRH]

yeah that could be super dangerous if it shattered

[jcs003]

from what i have learned at work in testing carbon fiber, is when it fails it FAILS!!

i think it would be possible if their was an aluminum engine cradle and aluminum inserts as mounts for other components.

it is also possible to reinforce with aluminum honeycomb as used in the auto race industry.

of course we are talking big bucks and alot of R&D. if the groundwork is set in a few years it will cost thousands less. i think it can be done. if fucelodge of an airplane can hold up to the pressures and tuburlances that it does than a quad frame is definitly possible.

[trx310R#24]

i really cant say it would help all that much =p a frame is only 45lbs? it would look sweet as hell though =p

[jcs003]

Originally posted by trx310R#24
i really cant say it would help all that much =p a frame is only 45lbs? it would look sweet as hell though =p

i think it is possible to get a quad in the 200+ range.

i was also thinking about carbon fiber swingarms. this may be even more beneficial. i think this could better balance the front and rear weight ratio.

does anyone know the ratios of popular bikes? im assuming the 250r is 70:30 rear:front respectivly.

[bomberman]

What you said about the swingarm. I can see how the frame would work as its central. But if you add a carbon swingarm in there to. Then youll be nose diving everywhere as the back end will be so much lighter than the front. Youd have to make the front alot lighter then to get the balance right.

[bomberman]

Also i know when weve used titanium frames over here they bend alot easier that the normal frames. Would be good for tt etc but i think it would be dangerous using a carbon frame for mx. Unless they know for 100% sure that it would be stronger than a stock frame.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by bomberman
What you said about the swingarm. I can see how the frame would work as its central. But if you add a carbon swingarm in there to. Then youll be nose diving everywhere as the back end will be so much lighter than the front. Youd have to make the front alot lighter then to get the balance right.

i was refering to the balance factor in handling. a close to 50:50 ratio would be great. it would make body english a main factor in handling. throttle and brake control is how i manipulate a bike in the air. i want the rear to touch just before the front does.

there are many benefits for this. lower upspring is also a great benefit. you could use lighter syspension components and etc..

[BLU82]

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_1001_bimota_db7_oronero_superbike/index.html

[jcs003]

Originally posted by BLU82
http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_1001_bimota_db7_oronero_superbike/index.html

great article. and by the contents of this, its just the tip of the iceberg in carbon fiber chassis technology.

[jcs003]

http://www.bactechnologies.com/atv_axles.htm

[axellmusic19]

I believe the axle working just great (and now I want one) but not a frame because of the stress points. The article on the motorcycle is awesome but then again he isn't jumping the bike off tabletops...

[jcs003]

Originally posted by axellmusic19
I believe the axle working just great (and now I want one) but not a frame because of the stress points. The article on the motorcycle is awesome but then again he isn't jumping the bike off tabletops...

i understand what you are saying. i wish i would of took classes in college on composites so i would have a better understanding of their properties. my only experience is at work and its based on proven applications.

but, they do use carbon fiber on bicycles that these guys are jumping from high platforms and going through some very knarley terrain and they are holding up with a 200+ lb. person.

hopefully someone in the industry will chime in and further the discussion.

[axellmusic19]

Originally posted by jcs003
i understand what you are saying. i wish i would of took classes in college on composites so i would have a better understanding of their properties. my only experience is at work and its based on proven applications.

but, they do use carbon fiber on bicycles that these guys are jumping from high platforms and going through some very knarley terrain and they are holding up with a 200+ lb. person.

hopefully someone in the industry will chime in and further the discussion.

Thats very true and I agree. I work at a bike shop near St Paul and I see the carbon mountain bikes in all the time and no doubt it can be done but they don't always offer a big weight savings and the framsets alone cost me as an employee over 1000-2000 as it is. I Spose atv riders would be willing to pay more

[jcs003]

even sub-frame swingarm and related components would benefit in saving maybe 20+ lbs. these kind of weight savings will make a much faster and nimble machine.

20 lbs will free up at least 5 bhp.

if they use the good stuff no way in hell your going to break a frame! If the carbon fiber nose on a F1 car will crunch but not completely fail allowing the main car body to not see damage in a 200+MPH crash into a wall... a quad is certainly not going to see that force unless you case a landing on a 200ft jump from like 50ft up.

[JIM GRACE]

After watching a f 1 race last weekend they said
the whole car is carbon fiber so anything can be
dine it just comes down to endless amounts of money.

[pro-rider46]

Originally posted by jcs003
even sub-frame swingarm and related components would benefit in saving maybe 20+ lbs. these kind of weight savings will make a much faster and nimble machine.

20 lbs will free up at least 5 bhp.

there is already companies out there that make titanium componants like that. and are plenty strong and light. i saw someone had a stock subframe that weighed 8+ pounds, and a ti one that was under 1lb!

[jcs003]

Originally posted by pro-rider46
there is already companies out there that make titanium componants like that. and are plenty strong and light. i saw someone had a stock subframe that weighed 8+ pounds, and a ti one that was under 1lb!

titanium just isnt the best material in this application. its about as expensive as carbon fiber and fails easier. it tends to crack around the welds easier than a steel frame. as a subframe i think titanium would be beneficial. but, then again, there is a limited supply of titanium. where carbon fiber is available based on manufacturers demand.

[300racer]

they make titanium a arms. but they are $1500 for a set. i hate spending $800 for the ones i have now i can't spend double for same that really isn't making me any faster. carbon fiber frame would be cool but i wouldn't want to look like this guy if they didn't make the carbon fiber out of the good stuff. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLRDRzMWIsg

[400exrider707]

Ti arms have never worked. There were issues with the material and keeping shape.

Carbon can be done, but $ is going to be astronomical. Most atv riders are not going to pay for something like that.

Jay@fourwerx already makes some cool carbon stuff if you haven't seen it. There are a few companies doing tons of Ti stuff already as well, and most of us have all seen the pics of the full Ti framed CRF450 quad that LSR built.

[woodsracer144]

there are in the works of composite bridges to replace the steel and concret bridges...

[hawaiikfx400]

expensive it would be but i think it will be done soon.hoyt makes a carbon fiber compound bow its double the price almost compared to the alluminum not much lighter and shoots about the same however they ran it over with a truck and it had no bends cracks ect.cool lookin desighn very flowing and twisted carbon tubes.

Originally posted by jcs003
http://www.bactechnologies.com/atv_axles.htm

Another picture

[witech]

Funny they didnt try to use they system Cannondale developed for the carbon fiber axles. Trying to make it work in a stock is probalbly why that failed.
The VOR dirt bike had a carbon fiber frame. It didnt seem any lighter . Very thick .

[Dale512]

Witech, All VOR Dirtbikes had Chromoly Steel Frames.

[300racer]

are there any kinda warranty on the carbon axles?
how much do they cost?
would they hold up to gncc racing?
and are they really that much lighter?

[Scro]

Originally posted by 300racer
are there any kinda warranty on the carbon axles?
how much do they cost?
would they hold up to gncc racing?
and are they really that much lighter?

Seeing as though that one broke in the sand, it wouldn't stand a chance at a GNCC. It doesn't make much sense to lose a great deal of reliability for a little over 7 pounds, when the mud that you accumulate during a mud race weighs 200-300 pounds.

[witech]

Originally posted by Dale512
Witech, All VOR Dirtbikes had Chromoly Steel Frames.
Maybe it was a prototype but Im pretty sure it was a VOR at the indy show about 4 or 5 years ago . Swingarm ,frame were both made of carbon fiber.

[Dale512]

Maybe you are thinking of the WRM 450?

http://www.motorcycledaily.com/07february05_wrm450mx1.htm

[300racer]

Originally posted by Scro
Seeing as though that one broke in the sand, it wouldn't stand a chance at a GNCC. It doesn't make much sense to lose a great deal of reliability for a little over 7 pounds, when the mud that you accumulate during a mud race weighs 200-300 pounds.

i see that one broke and the sand but i bet almost every axle maker out there has had an axle break. but yes i wouldn't give up reliablility for just 7lbs. unless can am gave me a deal!:devil:

[TNT]

Few myths about composites that they have better weight-to-strength ratio’s than metals well that is not entirely true. I have done design trade studies that showed them heavier, it just depends on the specific design and application. Depending on the lay-up, composites act as crack stops since the crack has to propagate through fibers one at a time compared to metals. Also, again depending on the lay-up and direction of plies, it is easier to take loads (compression, shear, bending, etc) since the lay-up allows placing fibers in directions according to rosettes (orientation, 0, 30, 45, 60, 90). That can done by placing the grain direction on metals, but there is limited capability to orientate to loads (0,90) that’s why composites lend themselves to light weight robust designs. In manufacturing what drives the cost to the end user up is not the material, it’s about 1/3 the cost but the man-hours involved in laying up, bagging, cooking, tooling, etc……also dealing with voids and delaminating that take down the integrity of the structure and have to be dealt with. Metals undergo a similar chem treat process to gain properties. Kevlar as an outer ply that is 5 times stronger than steel works good to reduce carbons low compression and impact strength.

Hand lay-ups as discussed above have become obsolete and replace by fiber placement and filament wound lay ups that are NC controlled (such as BAC axle). Sort like grannies knitting but the carbon/plastic reinforced yarn if you will is infused with a very strong resin system under pressure and temp. See some pics below, as the machine produces these pre-forms it will allow for drastic cost reductions. Many of these pre-forms will be and are available to order at a reasonable cost and any shop can assemble them if you know how to place them under loads. This fiber placed technology will sweep the motorcycle industry it’s just a matter of time, BRP, HON that have aircraft technology at their finger tips will be the first.

One challenge is temperature control when mixing metals and composites hybrids; they expand and contract at different rates, so in some cases either the composite or metal interface will fail in tension. The only fix is a thicker section to keep the rates down lending to higher weights. We’re getting closer and closer to homogenous parts and assembles that are fully filament wound(no metal) but gaining access for the anvil head to place the fibers over an entire frame or axle is going to be the challenge, also requiring expensive NC 5-7 axes. Right now the technology is limited to simple structure such as skins and tubes (axles) etc, that we bolt metal to and hence have issues with, but it will not be long before we see this technology revolutionize the industry making metal frames obsolete. ….not a matter of if just when. 

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/SquareTube2_sm.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/RectangleTube_sm.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Layup2.gif
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Layup1.gif
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Large-Round-Tubes-cat.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Joint.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Handlebar.gif

[jcs003]

tnt: great info. i have read many technical papers ion composites and they do not get specific about real world scenarios. good stuff.

[witech]

This is the Cannondale axle from nearly ten years ago. Ive seen this one in person and it was pretty sweet.Huge ID bearings allowed for a larger tube and being outboard had less stress on the axle.

[jcs003]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQoY7ECyoN8

this is something with a 4-wheel future :devil:

[honda400ex2003]

Originally posted by witech
This is the Cannondale axle from nearly ten years ago. Ive seen this one in person and it was pretty sweet.Huge ID bearings allowed for a larger tube and being outboard had less stress on the axle.

that is awesome! steve