450R problems

[400cc]

Hey people since it's starting to warm up outside I figured I would pull the 450r back out and start working on it since the weather started getting cold on me last time when i was working on it.

Before this happened it ran great.

So here's the story of what happened to it: The last time i took it out riding, i was out riding around just cruising along and all of a sudden it starts to bogg down feeling like my tire went flat and i looked back at it and it sure was flat, as i was pressing the gas lever it would just bog and had no power at all it felt like, so i called my dad to come pull me back home, i told him i was going to try to pull start it but it didn't work. Here's the deal of what happened on that, as he would pull me and i would let off the clutch it would run but would still bog and as i would pull the clutch back in it would just die.

I started wrenching on it after my quad got sick, I took the valve cover off and found the timing chain guides being chewed up after i forgot to properly tension the tensioner, so i replaced the cam chain tensioners and tensioned the tensioner, checked the valve clearences and all was in spec, after i put it all back together it still ran the same. I cleaned the carb and over the couple days i was working on it, i cleaned it a million times it felt like and never fixed the problem. My hot valve was also stuck in the carberator so i tried to fix that and found out the plunger was just stuck in the carb and never was able to get it out but even with the carb back all together it still ran the same.

So next I moved on to electrical parts, I have the manual and it suggest it's an electrical problem, so i replaced the stator and cdi box and it still runs the same, last i checked was the wiring and everything looked good, i was checking my coil and i couldn't get anything out of it, meter kept reading zero.

That was the last thing I was doing to it before the weather started getting cold.

I've also put a new uni air filter, new intake carb boot insulator thinking mine was cracked, also has a stainless steel oil filter.

When i replaced my cam chain guides i found a bunch of small chewed up plastic pieces all over the inside of the engine when i was replacing the stator and cam chain guides.

My quad is a 04 450R with a HRC kit

Let me hear your suggestions on this, i'm ready to ride.

I also attached a video

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[Baileygunns]

Crank

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by 400cc
after i forgot to properly tension the tensioner, so i replaced the cam chain tensioners and tensioned the tensioner

You did what???:confused:


Sounds like Carb to me. Also check your ignition coil and spark plug. Make sure all your TPS wires still look okay. Baileygunns suggested crank. Have you changed the oil lately? If it was crank, there would be massive amounts of shavings in the filter.

[Ruf Racing]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by 400cc
after i forgot to properly tension the tensioner, so i replaced the cam chain tensioners and tensioned the tensioner
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LMFAO! :D :huh

[redrider74]

most the time it seizes up when its the crank and you wouldn't even be able to kick it over..


are you sure your timing is correct?

[wckedclownz69]

check your valves again and make sure they arn't leaking... make sure your timing is right.. and its not the crank lol.. oh and what is the clip on your carb needle?? 3rd and could you give us jet specs if you have any?? is your a/f screw turned out to 2- 2- 1/2 and try taking off airbox lid..

[Baileygunns]

^^^Sure it is... Pull that oil filter out and look at. What color are the shavings are.... My money is on crank bearings. Sounds like he caught it before it locked up. The bearings will cause it to bog. He also said it happened while riding... His jetting isn't all the suddenly just going to go haywire...

Has anyone updated the crank on that bike?

Crank/crank bearings.

Good luck though... I'm waiting to hear the out come, I'm interested.

[400cc]

no the crank and crank bearings have never been upgraded that i know of, when i installed a new half case on it, it was the stock crank.

also when i kick it over, it feels like it hangs for a brief second then it frees up, it doesn't kick over like it used to.

would the crank bearings cause that from being bad?

crank bearings get hard to spin when they go bad right?

timing is also correct, not sure if the tensioner would have stretched the cam chain that much for the tensioner not being tensioned correctly

[redrider74]

Originally posted by 400cc
not sure if the tensioner would have stretched the cam chain that much for the tensioner not being tensioned correctly

you mean you just installed a new timing chain tensioner and didn't re-check the timing after you put it in? If you had the timing chain tensioned wrong and it stretched the chain your timing is deff off

[400cc]

Originally posted by redrider74
you mean you just installed a new timing chain tensioner and didn't re-check the timing after you put it in? If you had the timing chain tensioned wrong and it stretched the chain your timing is deff off

no it was timed right after i put the tensioner back in after installing to cam chain guides, i'll probably just buy a new chain anyway

[fastredrider44]

You do know that the tensioner is self adjusting right?:confused: You install it with no tension and let it do its thing.


If it were the crank, it lasted a lot longer than mine. Mine was running 100 percent til one field section where it ran 60% for about 100 yards before locking up tight.

[redrider74]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
You do know that the tensioner is self adjusting right?:confused: You install it with no tension and let it do its thing.

thats why he has me thinking the timing is off..

[400cc]

yeah i know the tensioner is self adjusting, but dont you have to turn the screw on the inside all the way out when you install it?

[redrider74]

Originally posted by 400cc
yeah i know the tensioner is self adjusting, but dont you have to turn the screw on the inside all the way out when you install it?

yes, to get the tensioner into the hole in the cylinder you have to turn the inside screw all the way out.. and after you tighten it to the cylinder you release that inside bolt and it self adjusts itself..

[400cc]

Originally posted by redrider74
yes, to get the tensioner into the hole in the cylinder you have to turn the inside screw all the way out.. and after you tighten it to the cylinder you release that inside bolt and it self adjusts itself..

yeah thats what i did, but the first time i didn't do that and that's what cause my cam chain guides to get all chewed up, was wondering if it would have stretched the chain that much or not

[fastredrider44]

The chain being stretched won't make it run like crap, unless it was stretched to the point that it allowed it to jump a tooth, causing it to be out of time. But it would have to be badly stretched. A normally stretched chain will just make noise.

[400cc]

here's another thing i left out, i thought i put it in my original post but i guess i didn't

when the motor was running like crap, it wouldnt rev up at all, i would give it just a little bit of gas and it just dies, then takes a while to start back up and do the same thing

after all this happened i've never got it to revup passed a 1/4 throttle, just dies

[wckedclownz69]

well sounds like what happend to mine... valves were too tight.. and when i kicked it, it would stick then go then it just felt like no compression at all..it would run then i coul go slow but not past 1/4 throttle or i would have to pull the clutch in before it died out.. when it did die out it took forever to start..

[400cc]

Originally posted by wckedclownz69
well sounds like what happend to mine... valves were too tight.. and when i kicked it, it would stick then go then it just felt like no compression at all..it would run then i coul go slow but not past 1/4 throttle or i would have to pull the clutch in before it died out.. when it did die out it took forever to start..

thats interesting, so yours was doing the same thing mine was doing? motor bogging and not being able to rev it up?

[wckedclownz69]

ya my valves were too tight...

[the Z Man]

And your decompression is too loose.

[ricks450]

Did u check ur pick up module yet to see if its got metal shaving stuck to the magnet. it can make ur bike do extacly what yours is doing. Check that if u havent. If i remember right I think u said ur coil wasent doing anything. that will keep ur coil from working. And make it seems like its out of timing. Im thinking this might be ur problem. If there is metal on there u need to check ur crank rod bearing and crank shaft bearings. There starting to go bad.

[400cc]

thanks for the replies, i'll probably just pull the motor and split the cases and install a new crank and bearings when i get time.

Would hate to get it running right then blows up on me and bust up my cases or something when i take it for a test drive, i don't want to do more damage than there already is

i'll keep updating this page with more info

[Balaz_73*00]

Have you pulled the oil filter and checked for shavings? I bet its the crank

[eric1528]

after you shim the valve put a new spark plug in it you never know if all that timeing stuff leaned out that plug and made it crap.

[400cc]

i started the work on my 450r today, i pulled the head cover off, measured the intake and exhaust clearances, exhaust measured ok and in spec, intake didn't go so good, it was at .006 mm but it was really hard to put in there like it barely fit, i had to roll the cam for the feeler gauge to go in there.

got the shims measured:
left intake = 1.78 mm
right intake = 1.61 mm
left exhaust = 2.23
right exhaust 2.22

not sure what thickness the shims are supposed to be

[kenny450er]

are you sure you check you valve lash right. intake is 0.16mm +or- 0.03 exhaust is 0.28mm +or- 0.03 i hope you just wrote your specs down wrong if not your way way way loose.

[DnB_racing]

http://shared.sploitz.com/06trx450rSM.zip

here is a shortcut for the service manual your measurments are right .006in intake and .011in exhaust the manual will tell you how to figure the proper thickness

A=(B-C)+D
A is new shim thickness
B is recorded valve clearance
C is specified valve clearance
D is old shim thickness

recomended clearance
intake is .16mm(+or-).03 or .006in(+or-).01
exhaustis.28mm(+or-).03 or .011in(+or-).01
on page 4-12 of service manual

[kenny450er]

my bad i was looking at his shim thickness thinking it was his valve lash .006 thousands on the intake would be perfect.

[400cc]

Originally posted by kenny450er
are you sure you check you valve lash right. intake is 0.16mm +or- 0.03 exhaust is 0.28mm +or- 0.03 i hope you just wrote your specs down wrong if not your way way way loose.

mine has a hotcam

[400cc]

i also got the motor out, the manual says for the big rod end is .75 mm clearance, i can't get my .75 mm feeler gauge to fit in there. is that good or bad?

i'll have to check again when i get the cases split and the crank out.

[DnB_racing]

hot cams specs are the same as the stock on stage 2 anyways

[400cc]

i finally got the motor tore down and inspected the crank, all the bearings look good and turned easy, the rod bearing looked good also and moved easy, has no up and down play in the rod and the side clearances for the rod was in spec according to the manual.

my rod has the number, HP1 on it then after that it has 1 then like 4 dots after it. It looks like an oem crank just not sure if it would be the updated crank or not that honda released.

Anyone have an actual picture of the updated crank and bearings?

I also didn't find any metal shavings when i split the cases

[400cc]

i finally found me a fcr carb on ebay for a good price and it arrived in the mail today and was wondering a couple things about it

it didn't come with a throttle cable, can i use the throttle cabe that's already on my quad or do i need to order a crf throttle cable?

also, its a 40 mm and my carb on my quad is 41 mm as far as i know, thats what the manual says, do i really need a fcr carb adapter if the fcr carb is just 1mm size difference?

[DnB_racing]

the 04 has a 42 mm carb I thought and I do think that the insulating boot is different than the fcr carb but I have not done this swap out my self so my info is from memory of friends quad

[400cc]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
the 04 has a 42 mm carb I thought and I do think that the insulating boot is different than the fcr carb but I have not done this swap out my self so my info is from memory of friends quad

yeah you are right, it is a 42 mm, don't know why i was thinking 41 mm

[400cc]

my rossier exhaust showed up today so the build process will start

does anyone know what jets i should use in my fcr, its got stock jets in it now

i have the hrc cam,hrc lid and uni air filter, should i try a 175 main and 48 pilot?

i'm sure someone has a similar setup to mine

[Latemodel32]

Originally posted by 400cc
do i really need a fcr carb adapter if the fcr carb is just 1mm size difference?

you will need a noss adapter to make this set up work

http://www.nossmachine.com/honda_quad_parts.htm

Give joe a call tell him your set up he will help hes a cool guy.

http://www.rossiereng.com/

[400cc]

Originally posted by Latemodel32
you will need a noss adapter to make this set up work

http://www.nossmachine.com/honda_quad_parts.htm

Give joe a call tell him your set up he will help hes a cool guy.

http://www.rossiereng.com/

aleady got that done and installed

just got my rossier exhaust today

[400cc]

well i finally got it running, just need to rejet the carb

also i gotta figure out why it won't go into gear, it goes into neutral and first but no other gears, i'm going to have to take the side cover off and look to see if anything is wrong

is there anyway you can put a shift drum in wrong or does it only go in one way?

[Smoker]

175 main and 48 pilot is a good place to start, I ended up with a 168/48 after I ran on the dyno with air/fuel meter. A leaner needle or just running on the middle clip area on the needle will do that right. Fuel screw, seat and then run two turns out, if it's popping on hard deceleration, turn out another half. The bog is accelerator pump, which is leak jet or diaphram size. I cured the bog by checking the accelrator pump shot which was good then changed the leak jet, no need for diaphram depending on riding terrain/style. Strictly my experience, others will argue.

[400cc]

right now i have a 180 and a 48 just has a little popping when i rev it

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 400cc
right now i have a 180 and a 48 just has a little popping when i rev it

dont forget that jetting is for amount of throttle not rpms,that being said at what throttle position is it breaking down?

[400cc]

Originally posted by DnB_racing
dont forget that jetting is for amount of throttle not rpms,that being said at what throttle position is it breaking down?

Mostly at high rpm, wouldn't I need a bigger pilot?

[DnB_racing]

if you are 3/4 throttle to w.o.t. its your main at what POSITION does it start to give problems

[DnB_racing]

Originally posted by 400cc
Mostly at high rpm, wouldn't I need a bigger pilot?
Carburetor troubleshooting ........ The first step is to find where the engine is running poorly. It must be remembered that carburetor jetting is determined by the throttle position, not engine speed. If the engine is having troubles at low rpm (idle to 1/4 throttle), the pilot system or slide valve is the likely problem. If the engine has problems between 1/4 and 3/4 throttle, the jet needle and needle jet (most likely the jet needle) is likely the problem. If the engine is running poorly at 3/4 to full throttle, the main jet is the likely problem.....IM thinking your main is a little to big

[400cc]

well i didn't have a chance to rejet the fcr but i got my shifting all figured out so i took my quad out for a test run and holy ***** that thing is a whole different animal, feels like it runs like a like a 2 stroke now

gotta love that rossier exhaust sound to, sounds mean

guess, i'll have to invest in a new seat now, my seat blew off on my test run and ripped up the whole seat cover, i needed a new seat anyway, already had a chunk of foam taken out of it before i got it

[Smoker]

Adding an FCR to an 04/05 is said not to add a lot of horsepower on the dyno which who cares, it was one of the best investments I made. The acceleration difference is huge over the stock carb.

[400cc]

Originally posted by Smoker
Adding an FCR to an 04/05 is said not to add a lot of horsepower on the dyno which who cares, it was one of the best investments I made. The acceleration difference is huge over the stock carb.

I noticed the acceleration also, very big difference over the stock carb

[sandspanker]

which FCR carb is the one to use? i have a 06 air box ready to go on but not sure what year of FCR to put on. thanks

[400cc]

Originally posted by sandspanker
which FCR carb is the one to use? i have a 06 air box ready to go on but not sure what year of FCR to put on. thanks

i would go with a same year fcr carb off a 06 crf dirtbike but thats just me, might want to check around and see what other people are using for there setup

[400cc]

Originally posted by sandspanker
which FCR carb is the one to use? i have a 06 air box ready to go on but not sure what year of FCR to put on. thanks

i forgot to ask what year trx you have?

[Smoker]

Ebay, $200 shipped for an FCR off an 06 TRX, not too bad of a price.

[400cc]

Originally posted by Smoker
Ebay, $200 shipped for an FCR off an 06 TRX, not too bad of a price.

thats not bad, i got my fcr for a 100 bucks off ebay that came off a crf bike

[Baileygunns]

$100 bucks is good...

$200 is if you want one today.... If you look and wait for a little you'll find one for around $100.

[sandspanker]

sorry it is a 05. :o

[400cc]

yeah just keep looking, i'm sure you'll find a fcr less than 200 bucks

[400cc]

ok i finally got to rejet my carb after i had to install another head gasket

i went down to a 178 main and screwed the pilot screw out half a turn and if it's idling and i just push the gas it has a hiccup, do i need to screw the pilot back in a little bit more? i think i screwed the pilot out to much, not sure if these fcr carbs are touchy or what

[400cc]

crap, now that i think of it, i screwed it in half a turn, guess i need to go back the other way

[DnB_racing]

178 is still pretty big for the fcr carb. dont be surprised if it feels like you have hit a rev limit or feels like its bogging if so its to big. if it feels like its cutting out or pinging then its too lean, but its better to start to big than to be to lean, and remember its throttle position not rpms that determine the jetting circuit, for your pilot when idling keep turning a/f screw out to get maximum rpms with throtle closed,then adjust throtle stop to bring idle back down to were you want it, if the screw is still turning out past 3 turns and throtle is still increasing then you need larger pilot,

[Smoker]

Haven't shopped in a while, didn't know the FCR's came down that much, a good thing. The hiccup is the bog everyone usually has to tune out, which in my experience was changing the leak jet in the accelerator pump, cured it up instantly. That was how it worked out for me. Good info:

Jetting (http://www.thumperfaq.com/jetting.htm)

[400cc]

i turned the a/f screw back out the right way this time and screwed it back the other way half a turn from screwing it in to much, it revs up good through rps and idles good, the only problem now is when i'm kicking it, it will sometimes kick back, did i screw out the a/f screw to much or not enough? every once in a while when it's idleing and i push it wide open real quick it dies, but not all the time

[400cc]

this was one of my problems i was having with my quad running really ****ty and couldn't ever figure out why until i caught this at the last minute when i was about to bolt the rocker arm back on and had to order another one off ebay


just wanted to share these pics as i thought it was interesting

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab10/cozart80/450rocker2.jpg

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab10/cozart80/450rocker.jpg

[DnB_racing]

what are we looking at? is it the wear on the roller? if so thats caused by tight valves

[400cc]

yeah the rocker arm tower, the roller that rolls on the middle lobe of the cam

also had to replace my oil strainer tube that sits in the bottom the left side case, it was all stopped up with plastic pieces from the cam chain guides. I'm guessing after it got stopped up it quit sending oil to the top of head or something causing some of the roller damage