Shill bidding and destruction of the R population

[All250R]

I posted this to an ebay seller who's been making a business lately of breaking down good R's in the california area, reducing the amount of R riders and so parts demand, and having several ebay accounts with high percentages of bidding history with the seller peppering his auctions.

If you don't know what shill bidding is, it's the act of having people in the know bidding on an auction to drive up the appearance of demand to bring in a more profitable auction.

The R market is fragile because the bike was only made for 4 years and there isn't another equal quality replacement for it. Most of us who ride and have kept it know this and are interested in keeping it alive for us to ride. Guys like this have a right to part as many bikes as he can, reducing the number of riders who would have bought parts for the bike, keeping resellers stocking parts for us, however if his profit margin isn't high from artificially inflating the auctions he will have less incentive to part the bikes for profit.

So I posted this to the guy leaving it open for the fact that he could be legit, but my instinct tells me he's having fun making profit removing good R's from the riders and isn't above a little something-something to make it more worth his while.

if you agree, watch his bidders and if you suspect BS, tell him. As you can see I let him know that people are interested and keeping an eye out.

Thanks guys!
Jason
**********
Hi, I'm Jason. I live kind of local in Temecula. I run a business All 250R 2stroke
motorsports and am tied in with a lot of the online community of R owners.
Some of us are speculating that you're removing good/rare bikes from the
parts market and several shill accounts are bidding up the cost after
dismemberment.

These shocks are an interesting example in that the picture you're using is the
same as the picture of another pair you sold recently for 127.50. If you just
reused the picture for a similar pair of shocks its still odd that you wouldn't
just snap a picture of the ones you're actually selling, especially since they're
worth quite a bit more than they have been or usually are, if your auctions are
a gauge of market value.

It's also interesting that a lot of the bidders who win or participate in your
auctions have percentages of bidding with you usually over 30%, some as high
as 50 or 100.

If you're legit, cool. If you're not it's not going unnoticed.

[1promodfan]

Jason, I think I know who you're talking about, but would you care to tell what his ebay seller name is??

[fourtrax_r]

finally someone telling this guy to stop. i have been watching this go on for months now. used parts market for the 250r is in the crapper from this guy flooding the market. he is also killing some of the nicest R's i have seen in years.

[250Renvy]

I'm mixed because I have bought parts from him.
He was actually very good to deal with vs liverideatv who clearly uses shill bidding because he wants over the top prices plus he's a dick.

This has been going on for years since my-trx-n-250R parts and others have parted out 250r's for profit. The market will dictate how long he will do it. I suspect 312R1 has had a taste of how the price of stuff has gone down and it is not that profitable anymore for the amount of time that goes into it.

There is one of a few things that happens when an R get parted - 1. It goes away and reduces the number of R's around. 2. It allows people that are building from scratch to resurrect the R in another form 3. People with R's get parts that would otherwise cause them to part theirs out, keeping them alive.

I just can't believe what some parts will fetch.

[312R1]

Here a my thoughts..

Everyone knows that I part out aftermarket R's. Kevin is right the market isn't what it use to be..When I started doing this a few years ago I was profiting no less then $1,000 per bike, but a few that I have done this year I have just pretty much just broken even on, but I'm ok with that because I do it because I love working on the R's and letting guys that normally couldn't get a aftermarket frame and such have a chance to get them.

Don't get me wrong I would rather make a profit, but I really like seeing the average guy get nice parts at a price they can afford.

I have thought about changing it up and buying very nice OEM bikes, but I just can't pull the trigger. I just can't see tearing down a mint or very nice OEM bike. Hense the reason I only do the bikes that are all aftermarket.

If I wasn't doing this just as a hobby during my laid off time in the winter and doing this as a business there is noway that I would be going it..It's to much of a risk.

My.02
-Steve

[fastrnrik]

I've also bought parts on ebay from el pescado loco. Everything went well. I noticed he parts a lot of bikes, but have not studied his auctions to see about shill bidding or BS.

I agree about liverideatv. That guy is a dick. His games are obvious. I don't even look at his auctions anymore.

What I don't understand is why people get up in arms about bikes being parted? I've never seen anyone blast 312R1 for parting bikes on here. Quite the opposite actually. People line up wanting to buy his parts. I've bought parts from him and will continue to do so. He's a good guy who sells good stuff. What about ebay sellers addictedtomud and stoneconcepts? They part out bikes and sell those parts for a profit. If you doubt that, then check their prices. When you need a part, are you supposed to just buy NOS parts? What about parts that are discontinued? What about aftermarket stuff? Almost all of the old race parts are from bikes that have been parted out. Sorry but if I want a pro trax front end or something like that, I'm dang sure buy the $800 used one from a part out before I go buy a $2500 new one from Laeger. And ya know what? If I don't buy it, there's 10 other people in line that will. As far as making a profit goes, I don't have a problem with someone making a few bucks. That's the way it is. I'm sure no one on here gives their stuff away "for the good of the R". If you do PM me, I'll take it all. HAHA. But, I agree when guys like liverideatv take it to the extreme and drive up prices it makes it bad on everybody.
The fact is the bikes are worth more in parts than whole. My aluminum framed, pro trax, 350pv brought $3200 on ebay whole. We all know it's worth WAY more than that in parts. Am I supposed to sell it whole at a loss just so someone else can "enjoy an R"? Of course not. It's simple- parting bikes out is how we get our parts and keep our bikes going after 20+ years.
Just my $.02

[IcutMetl]

I figured that's who you were talking about; seems like "el pescado loco" always has a fair amount of parts up there for sale. I've bought a few things from him and they've been positive transactions; I've never thought to look out for shill bidding though- I don't appreciate the shadyness. I agree with the people who have mentioned "liverideatv." Dick.

There's another ebayer who consistently has good amounts of quality stuff up there; "stoneconcepts." I'm not sure what his deal is so I can't really bash him, but I do know that each one of the 2 times I've bought things off of him, I got screwed. First time I bought an axle that he made a mistake with and sold me something he didn't have, then it was something else (can't remember what) that turned into another clustefunk and took me nearly a month to get. I've seen some things in his store that I've been nearly ready to pull the trigger on before I say to myself....nope, not again.

[bullet225ho]

cycleguy79 and volcom37 seem to be on in the same.

Selling items over and over and olso selling same items on both accounts.

I have gotten parts from both in the past.......

I then started wondering why I'd get out bid by the same 3 or 4 bidders

I got to looking closer and an item would end and get sold but the seller would list a dang near identical part for sale 5 minutes after the old auction.

Shill bidding to pump the price up is happening. The "appearance" that there are alot of parts available as the truth is these guys seem to sell the same bike parts over and over. If you slap your wallet down and get above the shill bidding then they will send the part.

[machwon]

Why not report the listings with possible shill bidding items to e-bay? I'm sure they would look into it.

How are they getting around paying final auction fee's, just from saying someone didn't pay? I think after 3 "no pays" a shill bidder would be banned, but I'm not sure. Seems like a bogus seller would be going through a lot of work just to get more money.

[troybilt]

I've bought alot of 250r, 450r, and RZR parts over the last few years, and it seems like more recently things are getting more and more shady, IMO. I kind of assumed the economy downturn has made it such that stuff just isn't bringing as much money as it used to, so these guys still wanting to make as much as they used to and resorting to these BS techniques, when otherwise would normal decent dudes to work with.

I've taken the stance to really look for the Buy it Now stuff, and stay away from the auctions, I've yet to win an auction since before Christmas and that was with 312R, I knew he was a great seller. I was bidding on a skid plate (new) recently and lost the bid for $0.27 in the last few moments only to see the same item pop back up 2 or 3 days later... Twice that has happened in the last couple weeks for me with 2 different sellers and 2 different items.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Anybody remember the guy a few years back over on a t v s c e n e was buying up every aftermarket frame R he could find, you think it might be that guy doing this.

Alot of folks was complaining about him buying up so many & they had an idea this is what he may have been going to do.
Neil

[ballzdeep38]

a way i have found to try and stay clear of shill bidding is NOT to bid on an item till the last minute or 2 of the auction. many shill bidders willsee a normal bid happen with 2 DAYS left then pump it up, this will continue on till the end of the auction. if EVERYONE just waited till the last minute, hit the submit button at the same time, wouldnt it be a roll of the dice whose bid gets in at the right moment? this would keep the cost down, and prevent the shill bidder from having the opportunity to pump up the price. and if you won, the seller would then be obligated to send you your parts for the winning price.

[red88r]

I have bought stuff from the guy in Orange,CA. I know what he's doing and it kind of bugs me too. I believe his name is Dale Qu****n if I remember correctly. There is a little article in the Jan. 2010 issue of Dirtwheels on one of his quads. It is a CR500 powered 250R. Looks to be a very clean 89. It is on page 14. His stuff usually is very nice but he also gets enough for the stuff too.

I don't do alot of buying on ebay anymore....tired of all the bs. I do try to find all the reasonable buy it now auctions. Till the bs gets straightened out on ebay I'll stay away!

[All250R]

Originally posted by 1promodfan
Jason, I think I know who you're talking about, but would you care to tell what his ebay seller name is??

I originally posted his name and a couple examples of the prices of things that he'd sold and an instance where a picture was "reused". I don't have any proof that he's screwing with the R market, so I removed his name and the parts he sold. Anyway, his name has been mentioned here, and I'll leave it at that for now.

He and I exchanged a couple emails. He asked my opinion of what I thought of what he does and I told him I think it's askew from what I do which is the development and preservation of 2stroke technology, etc, etc... I can't agree with the argument that he's keeping other R's alive. The parts he's selling are not typically used race bike parts unbolted from an aftermarket frame. He's interested in profit, so he's pulling apart very nice original condition 250R's because the profit is highest there... hood for $400 and a frame for $650, and heel guards, etc... That's his target, tearing down usable, cared for 250R's.

I respect his right to make money. That's what's left of the good in this country - the basics of capitalism and the ability to better your life. However, when someone pulls down a perfectly nice condition OEM R, that R will never be ridden again, and no one will ever buy parts for it again. Shake down your busted up R's for clutch covers and case half money, but I get bummed when someone is paying a momentary bill with a bike that can't ever be replaced. Add numerous accounts associated with his auctions at 50% or greater bidding loyalty and I've lost an amount of respect for his business I guess...

The last thing I told him was the R community will decide if they want to keep him in business or not, and that's as far as I'll go with it. I know what it's like to think, oh man, it would be cool to own that super nice original hood, or seat, as spare or whatever. So I get it for sure. Something bothers me about a few of these guys aggressively reducing the ridable R population.

2cents

[All250R]

By the way, watch for auctions that have bidders that are plinking in their bids all throughout the auction duration. Most savvy buyers are going to bid toward the last of the auction so as to not drive the price up too high with an abundance of incremental bids. So someone who is actually trying to drive up the price is going to be doing just that so he can demonstrate as high of a value as he can.

[Fear250r]

ALL250r, I think you really summed it up good there. If it is the guy mentioned earlier, then yes, he does have very nice original stuff that should be kept together on nice, original bikes.

2nd, I do the same thing as far as bidding goes, obviously learned through the years. Don't keep bidding throughout the auction. Wait till the end. Why let everyone else know that you're really interested in something? Decide on what you're willing to pay and put it in at the very end and leave it at that. If you don't get it, oh well, wait till another comes around.

[dtowndiesel]

Originally posted by All250R
Shake down your busted up R's for clutch covers and case half money, but I get bummed when someone is paying a momentary bill with a bike that can't ever be replaced. Add numerous accounts associated with his auctions at 50% or greater bidding loyalty and I've lost an amount of respect for his business I guess...

The last thing I told him was the R community will decide if they want to keep him in business or not, and that's as far as I'll go with it. I know what it's like to think, oh man, it would be cool to own that super nice original hood, or seat, as spare or whatever. So I get it for sure. Something bothers me about a few of these guys aggressively reducing the ridable R population.

2cents


I couldn't agree with you more and I give you credit for raising your voice and saying something. I get a pit in my stomach everytime I see a beautiful 250r being parted out, especially when its being being done for selfish, profitable reasons. One thing I noticed though is that they all seem to fizzle out. I first got heavy with the 250r aftermarket scene when I bought my LOBO chassis off ebay from a guy in PA. He proceeded to part out about a dozen more lobo/laeger bikes after that and then disappeared. Then it was mytrx250inparts, and he disappeared and the list goes on. I have a feeling the same fate will meet "volcom37" and "el pescado loco" .

So what can we do to stop the so called destruction of the R population? Since finding this forum about a year ago I have bought and sold most of my parts right here. Not only is it convienant but its a straight forward honest way to do business, and I would encourage everyone else to do the same. Ebay has its time and place but the reputable guys on this forum will always treat you right. As of right now ebay is my last resort.

What can we do about all the discontinued parts from Honda? I would have bought a left case half yesterday if they were still available, and I would love a spare set of fenders. I've read in numerous places to call or email and lobby American Honda to start to reproduce these parts again, but I guess I don't know where to start. If somebody has contact info for who we should get ahold of that would be very helpful!

[All250R]

Excellent. Here is the number for Honda corporate: 866-784-1870. This is the most direct avenue that I know of to voice feedback about parts. You have to be just determined enough to get through the voice prompts to a live person. You also should try to make it clear that you want your feedback documented. You don't want the guy to just tell you, well that part's discontinued obviously. Insist on documentation of your concern. The word I got is if it's documented, higher ups will read it.

[troybilt]

Here's another experience my buddy just went thru yesterday on shill bidding that others should watch out for a report to eBay.

He was bidding on a fuel cell for his LT buggy, (2 different cells and 2 different sellers), but was out bid at the end of each by the next highest bidding, $0.50. NO big deal, win some lose some right, well anyway 2 days later from BOTH sellers, was offered a "Second Chance Offer" at his final bid, said they had 1 more of the exact same thing for sale.

This is what I picked up from this after reading this thread, the seller had either another account or "friend" bid against my buddy to find where is "max" bid was. Knowing the max bid the seller decided this was a fair price and then did a 2nd chance offer to him for it at that price. This was all so the seller didn't lose the item for a super cheap price and also didn't have to pay as much in ebay selling fees. BS!

I did a little research on "shill" bidding and this experience was basically there explanation of Shill bidding. Please note that this is illegal! It is ILLEGAL for a friend or family member to buy something from you at a public auction which is what ebay is considered to be => look it up I did!. So if you have any problems like this report them to ebay or the dbags will never stop. I realize "friend" is a pretty lose term.

[atvmxr]

i dont like people parting out all these R's... I guess I never thought of it like 312R said about giving others the chance to complete their build though...

I would rather just throw down $4 or $5k for an aftermarket R and be done with it, versus trying to piecemeal one together from a bunch of other Rs..
:ermm: