Dirt Wheels 250r Vs. 450r

[CODY_M11]

JUST GOT THE NEW DIRT WHEELS ISSUE MARCH 2010. HAS A ARTICLE ABOUT HONDA 250R VS. THE 4 POKER 450R. KINDA INTERESTING RESULTS.

JUST WANTED TO HEAR OTHER PPLS OPINIONS AND LETTING EVERYONE KN0W ABOUT IT.

THANKS

[skyeryder]

great now I have to drive in to town and get the newest magazine, lol!!! So were they biased to the 4-stroke???

[mohler]

damn u. i was getting ready to hit the sack, now i got to run back to town and get it. damn u

[250rPRIDE]

i just canceled my dirt wheels for good, thats the bais mag i have ever read in my whole life after years and years of reading it, i gave up.. ya updates are nice on new stuff and i love the letters section but them clowns never said one bad thing about any atv out there they have to be getting some huge bucks from the atv companies..what the heck is a shootout and in the end they never say ya this atv is better than the other period.. NEVER they say this is good for that and the other is good for this..BS, to each his own, i was just starting to like QUAD and after my second mag they went under, and atv action i hear is owned by dirtwheels soo......

anyways let me know what they say about the "shootout" because i will not give them another cent of mine.
go 250r!

[Latemodel32]

I agree DW sucks i let my sub go last month.
I sub to Atv insider & Atv rider

[CODY_M11]

well they werent really biased at all. they had ct racing put exhaust on both quads, and both ran stock 450r rims and tires. they did dog the 250r by saying 450r shocks are better, but for 20 years newer tech what do you expect lol. and they said stock a arms on 250r pretty much blows. they said the top arms are a lil to long giving it a lil to much positive caster. they said the brakes were upgraded from 250rs single piston to the 450s dual piston. back to the shocks they said 250 shocks were pre load only, they said the difference is 450 shocks are now rebuildable internally tuneable, and have compression and rebound adjusters.along with a half inch more travel up front and a quarter inch more in the back. than they said starting the 250 is easier than the 450 cold and starts better warmed up unlike the 450 where you have to use a hot start.


DRAG- close off line, 450 had a slight jump, depending on traction you had to be very selective of what gear you launched on the 250. both machines topped out at 74mph and said 450 was alot more stable at those speeds.


WOODS- gear selection very important on 250, spent alot more time shifting and clutching 250 than the torquey 4 poke. could lug 450 a gear or 2 higher with out fear of stalling.


TRACK- lap times a second or 2 quicker on 450. not night and day difference but did loose ground riding 250. easier to slide body around on ol 250. had to slide forward on 250 due to lighter front end on jumps and to keep front down out of corners. says 450r wasnt way better just a lil better in alot of places.

RESULTS- both used same amount of gas in same riding distance. but like 250rpride said well guess what, they say dollar for dollar both are excellent choices. when it comes to your wallet they said the 250r performs better. and maintance wise the 250r is alot easier to take care of. so know clear winner and DW didnt pick sides on which one they liked better.

they did break down the cost of a rebuild ( both top and bottom end) they also said parts are harder to find OEM wise but there are plenty of aftermarket companys that still love the ol 250.

My own personal opinion of the article? yes of course they made it sound like they loved the 4 poker. BUT and i stress BUT i love to see a 21-24 year old quad being compared to the POS 450 that all the young punks love. Hopefully this article will catch some riders eyes and minds as well as aftermarket companys and we COULD/CAN see the ol beast roar back to life!


THANK YOU ALL

[250rPRIDE]

oh i am sure it will.. ha i got 2 young punks at work converted to 250r's one sold his 450 already and the other is thinking about it.. they got sick of hearing me talk so i brought it in and let them ride it and thats all it took :D... like you said i am suprised they said that much good about the good old 250r but then again is could have been a kymco and it would have been right there with the 450r as well, with DW doing the review. but it is cool that they did this shoot out i am shocked, mabe ill skim over it when i am waiting in line at walmart or something..
thanks for the good reviews on what they said though for us DW haters!!!!

[mfr422]

I like how they say it's an 89 but really it's an 86 with the rear modded for the newer swingarm. what a bunch of Tools!! Add a 38mm airstriker and some equivalent shocks and the results would be different, this test just goes to show how bad the "modern" quads are!! Long live the KING!:D :D

[CODY_M11]

no problem. i have pretty much the same view on DW. i love the letter section and new product and all but all you see any more is 4 pokes. i was shocked to see a 250r on a cover of a mag! how long u think its been since shes had the spot light like that? lol but back to the subject theres no point in buying a mag that is only 4 poke reviews and only 4 poke parts in most of mag. i also have converted a buddy to 2 strokes. he bought 3 lt250s in like 6 months. it dont have a wing on it but hey its a start.

[CODY_M11]

MFR i 100% agree with you there. some fine tuning and from what it sounds a less biased and maybe a more experienced 2 stroke rider that 450 would of been choking on the 250s blue smoke rolling out of the tail pipe hahaha

[hontrx265r]

That article was stupid. I was upset I wasted my time reading it when I was done. It was my last issue on my sub and I'm done.

[CODY_M11]

how could u say it was stupid? yes it was biased. but come on the ol 250 was on the FRONT page of a mag. you know how much attention that is going to give the 250 community.imagine younger readers that maybe never heard of a 250r. than they read this and say holy s***! how could a 20 + year old quad compete with this bad *** 450r i wanted? wait what its cheaper to rebuild AND maintain? well i made up my mind on my first quad.

this could really benifit us!

[deathman53]

DW doesn't know what they are talking about, 85-89 250r brakes are dual piston, in-fact same internal parts are 450r brakes, just caliper body and adapter plate is different. Its good to see they did rip it a new one, I agree start modifying it and its a far more level playing ground, even a carb, reeds and good shocks makes a huge difference. They used a 86 right? If they used a 88/89 the front end would be quite better. I'm gonna pick it up in several days and read it.

[CODY_M11]

they stated it was a 89. but a previous poster said it was a 86 modifyied with a 89 swinger.

[woodsracer144]

i dont know boys, its a good thing it got out there, but once you start adding carbs and all this stuff its only fair to let it go the same way with the 450.. one thing i will agree with is a guy who knows how to ride a 2-stroke... and will ride it like it was built for...

[mcarlson1]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
how could u say it was stupid? yes it was biased. but come on the ol 250 was on the FRONT page of a mag. you know how much attention that is going to give the 250 community.imagine younger readers that maybe never heard of a 250r. than they read this and say holy s***! how could a 20 + year old quad compete with this bad *** 450r i wanted? wait what its cheaper to rebuild AND maintain? well i made up my mind on my first quad.

this could really benifit us!

Although i wish this would happen with the younger crowd, i doubt they will because its not the "cool" bike to have and they have mommy and daddys money to buy them a 450. You cant have the cool rockstar and monster graphic kits with a 250 unless you make it and they just dont want to do that cuz lets face it, if it aint in the mag the kids dont want it.

Thanks,
Mike

[slamdak8782]

Well there still is plenty out there to make the old r better. Most people who have rode the old R would agree its a different animal maybe not as powerful but what a blast to ride. I don't really care. The less that buy the cheaper they get, makes me all sorts of happy. More for me.

[LONG-ROD]

ya the need to do a real test.. modded 450. vs. modded 250r. I believe Doug Gust 450 only pumps out 65 hp.. and that is not impossible to get out of a 250r motor. the weight and geometry will make up for a lot of that power anyways. and Im sure the style of track makes a big difference. I know they have changed alot of the tracks in dirt bike mx to suit the four strokes.

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
i dont know boys, its a good thing it got out there, but once you start adding carbs and all this stuff its only fair to let it go the same way with the 450.. one thing i will agree with is a guy who knows how to ride a 2-stroke... and will ride it like it was built for...

ya mabe they should test them straight up, BUT like the others said why not a 89 thats lighter with better a arms and a little more power over a 86.. and like others have said DONT FORGET THIS 86 IS 25 YEARS OLDER!!!!!! so mabe make it equal with allowing some better shocks and a few little mods, and that 1-2sec down lap time might be going the other way.. but anyways i am glad DW did this test get a little bit of the 250r in the publics eye again..

[woodsracer144]

now what they have to do is get a hold of J. Jones old race quad when he was on the sparks 265 PV... and race that girl with a race ready 450r and see what they do... with pros on both of them, i know Zac Willett was on a sparks cylinder, im sure he would be a test rider for them....

[250rPRIDE]

haaaa! what would all those young punk 450r lovers say then..

headline: "265R BUZZES BYE BYE PAST 500R 4 POKER WITH STROKER!!!"

ha but then again DW will commend both machines for being great and list a few pros and cons on each machine, then declare them both winners in a Fin shootout!!!!!! ahh i hate that mag.. :devil:

[woodsracer144]

haha your ****ing awsome! haha!

[C41Xracer]

That shootout was alittle biased but I can say they didn't dog the R as bad as some other quads in other shootouts
I think a 250R. modded vs modded 450R would be great, if there going to keep doing shootouts like that one let's
See quadracer vs quad racer or tecate vs kfx450r.

[slamdak8782]

That would be pretty cool. The tecate's were unique. The LT250r and lt450r would be very one sided though.

[86honda250]

Originally posted by 250rPRIDE
haaaa! what would all those young punk 450r lovers say then..
:
you calling me a young punk at 20 are you.:eek2:
But I ride a 86 honda 250r with a esr 350pv. :D
I would love to see a modifide shoot out.

[250rPRIDE]

just mess around man.. haaa. i only got ya beat by a few years so, i cant say to much.. i have nothing against 450r's.. i USE to have one!!! :D

it wasnt no 250r plus i was able to make some decent money on it when i sold it so that played a role in the equation...

[RyanWsly]

gear selection very important on 250, spent alot more time shifting and clutching 250 than the torquey 4 poke. could lug 450 a gear or 2 higher with out fear of stalling.

don't agree with this, it was the biggest problem I had when I got my 450, they ride almost the same, other than high rpm output is better on the 250 and it doesn't stall and not want to restart, once your under the powerband on the 450 its dead if you don't recover it immediately, the 250 seems to recover once you rip the clutch, the 450 may or may not stall out on you, therefore I actually run the 450 at higher rpms then the 250. the 450 powerband is a bit smoother though, hoping a cam will help the 450 out some with the stalling problem.

[danhung11]

The article is scanned over on trx250r.net, in the Lounge.

[woodsracer144]

well i just contacted Dirt Wheels, i said they did a good job on bringing the 250r back out, but i called them out on it not being a True 89, i ended on a good note asking if they would do afull out race ready head to head build/ shoot out... I'll see what they say...

[axellmusic19]

Originally posted by CODY_M11
how could u say it was stupid? yes it was biased. but come on the ol 250 was on the FRONT page of a mag. you know how much attention that is going to give the 250 community.imagine younger readers that maybe never heard of a 250r. than they read this and say holy s***! how could a 20 + year old quad compete with this bad *** 450r i wanted? wait what its cheaper to rebuild AND maintain? well i made up my mind on my first quad.

this could really benifit us!

I agree with him actually...I own an LT250R and I love rooting for any kind of two stroke out there and especially when it gets a chance to shine against a new ATV. Although the press, media, and politics will never boast anything but 4 strokes, It is a slim chance the public sees the advantage to the way things used to be in our sport especially during these times when everybody lusts a $9000 450 and realizes that a $3000 250 will suit them. I can't say I like everything DW writes, but at least they have good article taste sometime :)

[hontrx265r]

Guys I only said it was stupid because... it was a disappointing read.. Just like you I got all excited to read the article and when I was done..I'm like thats it??? I guess I can't expect much more from dirt wheels. It was really nice to see some R spot light though.

On the other hand.. six months back I had my walsh bodied dale forsale.. and along came this odd group of investors who snagged it right up from me.. The guy who picked it up knew nothing about quads, and while he was on the phone with the purchaser in my garage they were only interested in certain things about it. One thing they were not concerned with was the engine.. It was cool to see that bike transformed into the highlander! Although they make that article seem like they invented the thing.. which is b.s. Still put a smile on my face to see her in there.

[skyeryder]

IMO that was a win for 20+ year old quad!!!! just my .02

[86Rrider]

Guys, I've held a subscription to DW since 1981. I've also held subscriptions to a couple other mag's for almost as long, and I can tell you that over the years there have been many changes in writting style and content - dictated by magazine ownership and sponsorship. But over-all (in my opinion) DW has held true to it's original format: bringing it's buyer's - subscriber's the leading edge of what is going on in the ATV world.

Back when I started my subscriptions, 3-wheelers were all the rage! Then when the first quads came out, DW covered them, but stated-"we're not sure if these will catch on". Back in the day, all they wrote about was the 2-stroke race machines, right on through the 90's. Now, that racing has went the way of the 4-stroke, so has the mag. With the manufacturers not making "new" 2-strokes, DW writes them as "old technology"and therefore, more 4-stroke coverage!

OK, enough defending the mag! Personally, I LOVED seeing a 250R on the front cover of the mag! I think 1992 was the last time a 250R was on their cover, which it was only a small side-bar for race coverage. My opinion on the article- yes, it was bias towards the 450R, becasue it's the "new" technology, but their own results could not slam the 250R. Actually, I kind of took the article as more of a slam to Honda saying "hey look, we just prooved that your 25 year-old model is just as good as your latest offering". Kind of a: Honda get your head out of whatever rock it's under and design a cutting edge ATV like you did back in 1986!

Lastly- from being a long-time reader of the mag, they have stated many times over the years, that they wanted to do a comparison test between the 250R and the modern quads, just that they can't find anyone with a stock 250R that would lend it to the mag for the test. Also, I believe it was about 4 ~ 6 months ago, they did the articles on the pro race quads and their set-ups, they added that they were working on getting ahold of a full race modified 250R, as it would have been in the day when the pros were running them and test it against one of the pro-class 450's. So, they are trying.....

[croat1]

86Rrider: very well stated.

dirt wheels feb 2001 cover has travis spaders duncan/roll design 250r on the cover. the GNC 250 pro series champ. full interview with travis and a complete build sheet.

[250rPRIDE]

Originally posted by croat1
86Rrider: very well stated.

dirt wheels feb 2001 cover has travis spaders duncan/roll design 250r on the cover. the GNC 250 pro series champ. full interview with travis and a complete build sheet.

wasnt it in 01 when the 250r pretty much dominated the atv world in every way possible :cool:

[312R1]

Hell..I would let them use my Laeger to do a test against a pro's bike. I would love to see the outcome!!

[superevil]

The only reason you dont see 250r powered machines anymore in big racing is because they made a rule that bikes have to be production models with stock frames,and have to be produced within the last 10 years.

[badquad]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
i dont know boys, its a good thing it got out there, but once you start adding carbs and all this stuff its only fair to let it go the same way with the 450.. one thing i will agree with is a guy who knows how to ride a 2-stroke... and will ride it like it was built for...

As I had said before and will always say. "Anybody can ride a 4 stroke, but it takes TALENT to ride a 2 Stroke!"

It is great to have the 250 back in the magazines, hopefully this will bring more magz to the idea of bringing back the 250R in articles.

[All250R]

Originally posted by skyeryder
IMO that was a win for 20+ year old quad!!!! just my .02
I don't see how it being developed 20+ years ago makes a difference when "modern" quad geometry is basically the same. The main thing that's changed is the large emissions compliant valve train burdened engine - well that and the asian cartoon plastics...

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by badquad
As I had said before and will always say. "Anybody can ride a 4 stroke, but it takes TALENT to ride a 2 Stroke!"

It is great to have the 250 back in the magazines, hopefully this will bring more magz to the idea of bringing back the 250R in articles.

could you think of how fast a guy on a 450 would be if he was REALLY FAST on a 250r? but im with you guys, im sticking to my 2-stroke....

[TORNADO]

Nothing beats, and I mean NOTHING beats the smell of race fuel and castor oil comin out of a properly tuned 2 stroke. AHHHHHH:p

[IcutMetl]

Originally posted by TORNADO
Nothing beats, and I mean NOTHING beats the smell of race fuel and castor oil comin out of a properly tuned 2 stroke. AHHHHHH:p

Hell yea; this guy knows! I start up my wheeler from time to time just to throw a bit of that smell around the garage. CAM 2 and Techniplate...getcha some

[John Noftsinger]

2-stroke smoke is the worst smell, why did Doug Gust (who ran the 250r for most his career )ride a 4-stroke agains,t the 250r and win ?Cause he saw the advantange of the 4-stroke! one there,s less vibration=less fatigue,better hookup ,better all around track quad can win in ALL track conditions! can pull better lap times . Honda since the 250r has been a JOKE there products mostly have been pretty lame (xr,s)/average they been riding on a age old reliabilty claim(which is from racing Baja where 95% of the riders are on hondas cause there the only manufactor that pits for racers) honda 250r was an awesome quad but the new 450,s are better!Twin cylinder fuel injected 4-strokes are the future! deal wit it! Ps Im sure going to stir up something for saying what I said but its how I feel about it.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
2-stroke smoke is the worst smell, why did Doug Gust (who ran the 250r for most his career )ride a 4-stroke agains,t the 250r and win ?Cause he saw the advantange of the 4-stroke! one there,s less vibration=less fatigue,better hookup ,better all around track quad can win in ALL track conditions! can pull better lap times . Honda since the 250r has been a JOKE there products mostly have been pretty lame (xr,s)/average they been riding on a age old reliabilty claim(which is from racing Baja where 95% of the riders are on hondas cause there the only manufactor that pits for racers) honda 250r was an awesome quad but the new 450,s are better!Twin cylinder fuel injected 4-strokes are the future! deal wit it! Ps Im sure going to stir up something for saying what I said but its how I feel about it.

wtf are you trying to prove?

[John Noftsinger]

How is this BS ?doug gust did ride a Z440 against the 250r and won a national,honda does suck,baja is made up of 95% honda cause of there piting only hondas,450,s pull better track times,less fatigue on 450 than 250r ,better hookup in wet condition,etc .what Bs about it plus IMO thats all. im sure if everybody agreed with what you think there would be no discussion on it.people say that the 450r isn,t that much better and I agree ,but the ltr450,ktm, can-am,new yfz would do circle,s around a stock 250r versus stock ltr,yfz,ktm,can-am.do to the width and hp,s I just thank god Doug Gust rode that Z 440 and changed racing forever! now we have new quads to compare to the old 250r.

[IcutMetl]

Well; as they say, opinions are like aceholes- everyone's got one and they all stink like crap. To each their own I guess and everyone's bound to have their own favorite, but you're pretty brave for coming into a 250R forum to spread your manure.

Anytime you give consumers more than one option, there's bound to be heated debate on which one is best- especially with people like us who are passionate about their hobbies. I think that's part of our nature.

Now I'm no industry insider, but I'm pretty sure there was a LOT of other issues happening "behind the curtain" that led to the demise of 2 strokes in racing. 4-strokes have come a long, long ways and are still going; your right there, but if you put a well engineered 2 stroke engine beside a well engineered 4-stroke engine of equal displacement, the 2 stroke will always come out on top for overall power output, not to mention power to weight ratio. If you dont agree, riddle me this...why did they come out with 400-450's to compete in the 250 2 stroke classes?

You may not be a fan of the 250R's, or even Honda's in general, but if you can't be objective and acknowledge that they have been and still are in some cases the benchmark by which most all other performance atv's are judged, then keep reading your Dirt Wheels and tossing out speculations.

[ballzdeep38]

John- you are comparing apples to oranges and saying one is better. your argument has alot of holes in it.
"I just thank god Doug Gust rode that Z 440 and changed racing forever!" - ok lets be honest, gust didn't change anything. had he raced and failed the amount of money involved in the 4 stroke movement would have changed the racing rules regardless. money talks.

"doug gust did ride a Z440 against the 250r" - he raced a big bore z400 (440) against a 265r, that's not all that impressive, a 431 puma wouldn't have much trouble with that z on any track in any conditions.

"but the ltr450,ktm, can-am,new yfz would do circle,s around a stock 250r " - again apples and oranges. the quads listed here are sold as "race ready machines" (extended a arms and axles, suspension that has 20 years of R&D behind it, high compression "race tuned" engines, MX/XC wheels & tires). the 250r in stock trim was built as to be a recreational machine not a stock race machine. if you widen the stance and update the shock, change the wheels, and give the motor a racers setup you have a completely different match-up. and if you give the R the ability to go to the same cc's as the new 4 strokes the HP edge will be in favor of the R.

"less fatigue on 450 than 250r" - hit the gym, strengthen up that limp wrist and grip, and learn to really use a clutch and this can be overcome. the idea that they have to build quads for douche bags who want to go fast with out putting in the work is the direct result of the pussification of this country.

"now we have new quads to compare to the old 250r." - the supposed upgrade from the R was the 400ex. every 4 stroke made after the rule change was is no longer competing with the R. they are competing against the 400/450 bunch. the manufacturers are afraid to let the R run against the new machines. think about it. how bad will it look for you company if your new 10k KTM is getting beaten every week by a 20 year old quad? how many new KTMs are you gonna sell? how much money does your company stand to lose? like i said before, money talks.

finally. how old are you? has no one ever taught you about the proper use of punctuation (not to say i am perfect but better than your last post)? or how about a run on sentence?

[John Noftsinger]

comparing cc,s is very difficult being that they are two different kinds of motors,back when they raced the 440 agains,t the 250r the 250 was a 265 cc limit and the 4-stroke was 440 then honda changed it to 450.im just glad that a 4-stroke got better ,would hate to only be able to pick from 250r,lt250,banshee, for a performance quad ,now we have lots to pick from and honda,s aren,t considered the best anymore IMO suzuki was the first to have to balls to make a full race quad.then the other,s besides honda followed.Suzuki has changed quad racing more than honda ever did honda just copied the lt250 and made a better frame for handling the lt250 never had chance to improve its frame do to the ban and everybody pulling out of racing and building performance quads.honda was lucky to have best handling quad before the ban and it was the quad to have till the 4-stroke hybrids starting winning agains,t the 250r and people saw that the 4-stroke was a better quad for racing track with, drag racing will be ruled by the 2-stroke but the tracks/trails by the 4-stroke!

[RyanWsly]

Come on John how long did Suzuki produce the LT? 85-92, they had plenty of time to get it right they just didn't, and if your gonna tell me a stock Z will handle like a stock R, well it just won't period. 250R's don't race due to tree huggers and big buisness. 20 year old technology is still applied to today's 450's, they improved 4 stoke technology and suspension, that's the big difference. Oddly enough I own a 250R and a 450R, friends own YFZ's and Z's and the chassis on them is basically designed the same, wonder why that is? I'm with you, I like my 450, and think there should be a large selection, but when you act like there have been leaps and bounds beyond the 250R your wrong. When you can take a 20 year old design, update the a few things and make it compete with today's production machines that says a lot, try putting a 89 RM, YZ, KX, or CR head to head with today's bikes and see what you get.

[John Noftsinger]

I think 91/92 was the yr the ban came to be ,and it take,s several years of testing and development into making a quad ,changing the frame is big change for manufactors to do look at the yfz ,took them 5yrs,honda hasn,t,suzuki made one and saved Z for the trails ,and the z does handle with a-arm,axle just as good,Plus the 250r,s (most that were raced) didn,t run stock frame.Not that the Z was a stock frame either.The only thing you can change on todays quads is the motor the frames have gone as far as they can for the money .yes you could build a carbon fiber frame but it would be too much money ,design wise there,s not much you can change to get it to handle better.

[RyanWsly]

Z400 was built to compete with a big lumbering turd known as a 400EX, stock vs stock the Z is a much better ride, and that engine was the best off road 4 stoke produced up to that date IMO. A stock Z was still not superior to the 250R stock vs stock. My point about the LT is that they were produced before and after the TRX, if honda copied it, why didn't suzuki follow suit and change their design and fix what honda did on it? seems like the R&D at suzuki at the time was sleeping. BTW the frame on the YFZR's looks sweet, it is the biggest development in chassis design in the last 20 years, interested to see how it holds up.

[John Noftsinger]

Im talking about the 1985 suzuki lt250 was copied by the 86 honda 250r .you put the same stuff on the 250r as the Z and its just motor to motor comparing and the Z opened the eyes to what a 4-stroke could do agains,t the allmighy 250r it won !and yamaha step up the game with there 439cc quad then raised it to 449cc when honda entered the only thing that were comparing is the motors for the race track the 250r held track lap time for yrs the 450 has if not beat all those track time,s by now. the 250r motor compared to the 450 has alot more vibration that cause,s fatigue,and less hp /torque when running together in the cc level they had to run at ,it was an advantange to the 4-stroke ,440 to a 265cc 2-stroke IMO.

[Allison55ex'er]

some people's kids:huh :rolleyes:

[woodsracer144]

John Noftsinger- everyone to their own but i think that you have to take your hat off to the 250r, when you find a quad that handles anything near a 250r please call me cause i havnt rode one yet...i think the one with the best chance right now is the yfzr right now... but i havnt read much on it or rode it so i cant say.

i was talking with ben bettis and i was askin him about the best quads hes rode, he said powerwise stock it was his can am but handle wise nothing came close as to the 250r he had ( its the one i have now)

a few of you know that there are 6 sparks 265 PV's with a prox cyl, Zac Willet ran one and i know a guy that has one of these now and he said it is the FASTEST quad hes rode, he ran ice also.


you can say what you want about the new quads but i'll show up to the track with my 250r and you can come with your high tech 4 stroke and i'll show you the price tag it took to spank your new quad with my 20 year old quad, and you can show me the amount of money you just watch get flushed down the toilet...

:D


I would like to see a shoot out with a modded 250r, mabie J jones rep. of the 03 race quad he ran with the sparks leagers chassis he ran... will all the new 4 pokes...

[John Noftsinger]

Im not trying to prove anything and yes my writing sucks deal with it .why did most the pros back in 99-2000 ditch the 250r for the hybrid ?cause they saw an advantange to the 4-stroke.vibration WILL fatigue everyone no matter how much training/working out you do. high performance 2-strokes put out alot of vibration period.ride a banshee/250r for awhile then ride a 400-450 big difference in vibration .

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Im not trying to prove anything and yes my writing sucks deal with it .why did most the pros back in 99-2000 ditch the 250r for the hybrid ?cause they saw an advantange to the 4-stroke.vibration WILL fatigue everyone no matter how much training/working out you do. high performance 2-strokes put out alot of vibration period.ride a banshee/250r for awhile then ride a 400-450 big difference in vibration .

dude, i dont htink the vib from a 250r is any worse then a 450... i cant think of a single time when im riding and im think "DAMB! I WISH I WAS ON A 4 STROKE CAUSE MY 2 STROKE VIBS WAY TOO MUCH!" when i ride i focus on what im doing and where im going, i focus so hard that i just do what i have to do, i dont think about it i just do it... i dont think about what gear im in, i dont think about how much my quad vibes, i dont think if lift of or pin it, i just go...

[John Noftsinger]

Yeah i too would love to see that and at the same cc,s they raced before 265cc to 450cc cause you cant go back to 440 unless it the z racing which Id like in there too for comparing too . and my bet would be on the 4-stroke in a 20 lap race!Not a fan of the yfz,s frame yet love the Ktm,s kawi and suzuki,s got pretty good one ,s ,honda needs to step up or get left behind when it comes to the chassis.Ive heard that the 450 has broke most of the 250r lap time is that true? Wimmer has best quad EVER made IMO thats a quad that cant be beat you watch Creamer will have the best yr hes, ever had riding that suzuki mark my words!woodracer you said the 250r frame is better but I think its the weigh is what makes it feel better you compare a 450 in the same frame cause i think the frame are almost the same its the motor weigh and reaction (being that they have different powerbands that make them different not the frame.

[John Noftsinger]

Not tyring to beat down the 250r just hate when people hate on the 4-stroke I love to have a 250r fully built but would rather have a 450 fully built if i was racing i dont believe a 250r can beat a 450 IMO there were great for there time I just think it,s the 4-stroke time now thats all.IMO the weight is the only advantange the 250r got.you know what would be a fair race if the 4-strokes could have a twin cylinder 450 motor agains,t anybore you want 250r that would be fair IMO.you put up J.jones 250r agains,t wimmer,s wimmer,s quad would kill it !

[John Noftsinger]

I love too debate this issue its interesting to talk and debate about dont think any of you are stupid for what you think, i just like what the 4-stroke is doing these days and defending the 4-stroke i will cant stop myself from jumpin in the debate over 250r vrs 450 thats all And i hope in future the one of the mags will have the balls to put a modded 250r agains,t a modded 450 all of them,that would be insane and would sell many issues.

[CODY_M11]

What i dont understand is first you said a 450 will stomp a 250r no matter what. Than you say a FAIR race would be a twin cylinder 450 vs. any cc 250. If a 450 could beat a 250 NO matter what why would you want to throw a twin cylinder in the race?

Second, my 250 has very little vibration. Not close enough to wear me out.

And if you ride a 2 stroke in the woods and KNOW how to work the clutch properly it will keep up with a 4 stroke no problem.

Not trying to rag on you but dude you came in a 2 stroke forum and start bashing it. Of course your going to catch hell lol.

And as you said you would love to have a completely decked out 450 over a decked out 250. Honestly thats what you want thats cool but for the price of your complete 450 THE WAY YOU WANT IT i could probably have 2 250s built the way i want it.

The reason pro racers went to 4 stroke is because thats where the MONEY went. If no company is backing the 250 no longer of course your not going to want and race it. like previously stated how bad would it look for a company if a 20 year old quad beat there brand new shiney 6k+ 4 stroke.

250r owners are a breed of our own. its in our blood. almost every 250 has a story. and no matter how pathetic it looks more than likely there will be at least one person who comes over and looks at it and admires it.

[All250R]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Not tyring to beat down the 250r just hate when people hate on the 4-stroke I love to have a 250r fully built but would rather have a 450 fully built if i was racing i dont believe a 250r can beat a 450 IMO there were great for there time I just think it,s the 4-stroke time now thats all.IMO the weight is the only advantange the 250r got.you know what would be a fair race if the 4-strokes could have a twin cylinder 450 motor agains,t anybore you want 250r that would be fair IMO.you put up J.jones 250r agains,t wimmer,s wimmer,s quad would kill it !
If ignorance is bliss, you must be ecstatic. Just kidding. But you're kinda shooting off a little here without thinking it through, cause you're kinda flip flopping it seems. Either way, I just want to say that you can't handicap a 4stroke by 200cc's and then concede to let a single 2stroke compete against a twin 4.. etc, etc. How generous of you. lol.

Why don't we do this instead. Make a 4stroke put out as much power as it does without valves, chain, guides, oil filter, pump, and remove about half the parts from the carburetor it has. That might be something worth looking at. Oh wait, it wouldn't even run.

I know a solution, pull the spark plug from your 4stroke (is half an hour enough time?), put it in 2stroke and start it on the first kick instead. :D

Funny, we consider a simple DVD an upgrade in technology over VHS, but people can believe a bloated engine is an advancement. :huh

[K-Dub]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
How is this BS ?doug gust did ride a Z440 against the 250r and won a national,honda does suck,baja is made up of 95% honda cause of there piting only hondas,450,s pull better track times,less fatigue on 450 than 250r ,better hookup in wet condition,etc .what Bs about it plus IMO thats all. im sure if everybody agreed with what you think there would be no discussion on it.people say that the 450r isn,t that much better and I agree ,but the ltr450,ktm, can-am,new yfz would do circle,s around a stock 250r versus stock ltr,yfz,ktm,can-am.do to the width and hp,s I just thank god Doug Gust rode that Z 440 and changed racing forever! now we have new quads to compare to the old 250r.

Ok John check this out. 2003 was the LAST year that the AMA ran the pro class, from 04 on its been pro production. The did away with the top class in ATV racing. When you hit the link you see the class listings "Pro" and "Pro Production"

ama results 2003 (http://www.atvaonline.com/race/mx03.asp)

Yes Doug Gust won one race (anybody can get a lucky break and win one) and finished 4th overall in the pro class against the 250R. Thats right JJ won the championship on the R the last year of the pro class. What was Byrd on, it says Honda, was he on a 400EX or a R? What about Little in 3rd says LSR, was it a Hybird or an R? I dont know so Im asking. Here are the results:

2003 pro class final results (http://www.atvaonline.com/race/results/atvanarres.asp?s=9&cls=501&year=2003)

To me right now the pro class should be a cc limit for 2 strokes and a cc limit for 4 stroke, frame of your choice, under 50" wide and go for it. The factorys are all but gone with the wind. Most of us bailed on the people that keep ATV racing alive once the factorys came back, shame on us. Let the 250R back, open up the pro class and lets hope Duncan Racing, LRD, CT, Chuck E. racing, TC racing, Sparks racing, Baldwin racing (I know some of these made the switch to 4 pokes but back before 04 they where the factory teams) and Nacs (Im sure Im forgetting a few big sponser from the 90's) come back to save us from no or very little factory support like they did once before.

Go to 2stroke mx and read how the used 4poke resale market is droping, from rebuild cost of that tech advanced engine. Whats a twin cylinder gonna cost to rebuild? Then see how 3 to 10 year 2 stroke resale value is climbing as people realize that the 2 stroke is more economicle to race, plus just as fast.

[badquad]

LONG LIVE THE 250R!!!


If we compare the geometry of the 250R and look at what the technology has now, it is based off the 250R. The 250R is the best handling quad now and 20 years ago. All these 4 strokes are top end heavy, which the 250R you sit in a pocket and the center of gravity is so low that makes the handling the best.

Anybody can correct me on the handling or add to it.

[John Noftsinger]

I dont care about getting bashed ,i just dont think a 250r stock for stock or modded to modded would win races agains,t the 450,s period! if ican remeber the 250r at 265cc,s was putting out 50hps+ the new 450,s are putting out 60+ big difference ! and why does everybody think that the 4-stroke,s need all this work done ,guys go though a season on the same motor maybe just oil change,s some have to change piston /rings or valve adjustments ,regular maintance during the season you guys act like there overhauling the entire motor every other race. and doug gust won more than one race with the Z440 and it was said it was putting out 52hp . 2002 he won the 12hour/darren naccaratto memorial race,2003 ama atv motocross champ,2004 again ama motocross champ and in 2005 got second agains,t the 450,s with the Z450.was champion in 87,89,99 with 250r.Now why would a guy that rode a 250r that long switch to a 4-stroke ? it was an advantange to ride it smoother power,better hookup,lots of torque,can win in all track conditions.

[CODY_M11]

THEY ALL SWITCHED TO 4 STROKE CAUSE THE FACTORYS DID! THATS WHAT THEY WERE BEING PAYED TO RACE! Im not saying you HAVE to put alot of money in a 4 stoke, but be realalistic if you want to be competitive in racing a stock 450 aint going to cut it. you can easily dump 3k+ just to have it at a competing level.

[CODY_M11]

well john i did a little research. you said the new 450s put out 60+ hp. well for your 60+ hp i found that you have to pay

*2009 Honda 450r $7,499
*2009 Suzuki 450 $8,099
*2010 Yamaha 450 $8499
*2010 Kawasaki 450 $7,949
*2010 Can Am 450 $9,149 (FOR THE MX MODEL)

So for your 60+ hp you have to pay the min. of $7,500. And as you previously stated you dont care for the Honda it looks you will be paying a min. of $8,000 for your 60+ hp.

And so i ask all the 250r fans in this forum, have any of you payed $7,500 to get 60+hp out of your 250r? Does the SaberTooth cylinder kit that PRODUCES 90-100 HP even cost you $7,500? it might cost a pretty penny but i dont believe its $7,500.

[All250R]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I dont care about getting bashed ,i just dont think a 250r stock for stock or modded to modded would win races agains,t the 450,s period! if ican remeber the 250r at 265cc,s was putting out 50hps+ the new 450,s are putting out 60+ big difference ! and why does everybody think that the 4-stroke,s need all this work done ,guys go though a season on the same motor maybe just oil change,s some have to change piston /rings or valve adjustments ,regular maintance during the season you guys act like there overhauling the entire motor every other race. and doug gust won more than one race with the Z440 and it was said it was putting out 52hp . 2002 he won the 12hour/darren naccaratto memorial race,2003 ama atv motocross champ,2004 again ama motocross champ and in 2005 got second agains,t the 450,s with the Z450.was champion in 87,89,99 with 250r.Now why would a guy that rode a 250r that long switch to a 4-stroke ? it was an advantange to ride it smoother power,better hookup,lots of torque,can win in all track conditions.
Put a 250F engine in the 450R chassis and line it up with the best quad ever made, I mean the 250R. Think about that for a second and then think how great of an engine it is.

The point is you can't just pick a cc number to handicap yourself with and then when it finally breaks the power tie call it a better engine. Your opinion that the 450's are "better" is based on the fact that it's a handicapped engine running in a 250cc class race! hello?? You don't have to be above average intelligence to grasp this concept, so did you just spend your life watching too many commercials on tv, and thinking they were "information"?

[All250R]

While you're in the crosshairs, tell us what you think of this? http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/02/shocking-four-stroke-costs/

[Dachshund]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
suzuki was the first to have to balls to make a full race quad.then the other,s besides honda followed.Suzuki has changed quad racing more than honda ever did

Just had to comment. How short a memory some people have. Any body remember Cannondale and the Moto and Blaze. Stick numbers on the already installed number plates and go race. Nothing else needed. I must say, those balls are much bigger than Suzuki's not ready to race LTR.

Just to stay on topic and appease the 250R gods. Still have 3 of em. 85, 86 ATC and 86 TRX. Also have 3 Cdales with one of them being the "first" race ready quad.

I say give us a choice.... modern batteryless fuel injected, Power valved 2 stroke and your current 4 strokes and let the free market dictate the outcome. Free market had nothing to do with the demise of the 250R. Politics, politics, politics.

.02 of my dollar.

[Dachshund]

Originally posted by All250R
While you're in the crosshairs, tell us what you think of this? http://twostrokemotocross.com/2010/02/shocking-four-stroke-costs/

Great link.

[John Noftsinger]

The money isn,t an issue if your j.jone,wimmer,gust etc they get there stuff free and to start off you can get used 4-stroke 450 for 3-4000 and with all the goodies and put a couple grand in motor and be around the same price as a 250r you dont need to go new so that puts an end to your money BS issues for the 450 ,I never said anything about comparing money spent on each quad and which was the better value there the same if you go used and you,ll be spending thousands just to get it to 50hp ! look at the dyno section on dynoing the 250r of buttermilk,s quad bottom line 450 faster on track than your 250r,s IMO.

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by Dachshund
Great link.

One problem with that link. Yeah, take your TRX450R to the dealer after blowing the motor, and you will not like the price. (Even though I would never take my 450R to the dealer anyway, as they charge way to much!) What would happen if you took your 250R to the dealer with a broken rod that took out the bottom end? They would say sorry, we can not fix it, some parts are not available.

Here is a example. A little over a year ago, the transmission broke in my 2004 450R race quad. I never replaced any parts in since i owned it, and it had ALOT of race miles on it. One of the dogs broke, bounced around in the trans, and took out both case halves. Cost me about $1,400 to fix, that included a complete brand new trans from Honda, new case halves, and me doing all the work myself.

Now, lets say the same thing happens to my 250R. I would shudder at what it would cost to fix using brand new parts. Remember, alot of the parts are no longer available, so if I want brand new, I have to buy them from some guy on ebay that is selling them for a premium. Sure, I can buy used, but who knows what kind of shape they will be in. Even if they were in excellent shape, since they are no longer available, the sellar will still wants a premium. A bottom end rebuild on any quad will not be cheap. As far as I am concerned, the only real extra expence on a four stroke is the cylinder head, everything else is comparable. I bought all the parts to fix my 450R from Service Honda. I bet if I went and looked at the parts fishe for the 250R and added up the same parts I bought for the 450R, the cost to fix the 250R would be pretty close to what it cost me to fix the 450R.

As far as the 250R vs 450R stuff, I have said it before and will say it again, my 450R is a better race quad for me. It just plain works better for what I want to do. The 450R is just easier to ride. That being said, I do not think a 450R is faster then a 250R. When it comes down to it, a quad has very little to do with being fast, it is really all rider. I am sure someone could get on my 250R and run circles around me on my 450R, even though for me, the 450R is the "faster" quad. It really is what the rider feels comfortable on.

Doug

[All250R]

Originally posted by D Bergstrom
One problem with that link. Yeah, take your TRX450R to the dealer after blowing the motor, and you will not like the price. (Even though I would never take my 450R to the dealer anyway, as they charge way to much!) What would happen if you took your 250R to the dealer with a broken rod that took out the bottom end? They would say sorry, we can not fix it, some parts are not available.


The link isn't talking about a TRX250R though... But to go into this tangent anyway, you're right don't blow a trans on a 250R. The rest of the engine parts however are cheap and easy.

What the article IS talking about is a 4stroke with throw away barrel, and the rest of the parts a 2stroke just plain doesn't have, like Ti valves. Hard to argue with a maintenance bill for parts that the bike doesn't need and still make 40% more power. If you look beyond the product advertising media, you'll discover that it's not a matter of opinion that the 2stroke engine is a more powerful, lighter, cheaper design than a 4stroke - even honda had it publicly posted and described the shift as an "environment friendly" decision, although sales in 4strokes parts doesn't hurt I'm sure.

You have to increase the size, tolerances awareness and decrease reliability of the thing to make it more competitive! if you compare apples to apples how is that a better engine?


Originally posted by D Bergstrom
As far as the 250R vs 450R stuff, I have said it before and will say it again, my 450R is a better race quad for me. It just plain works better for what I want to do. The 450R is just easier to ride. That being said, I do not think a 450R is faster then a 250R. When it comes down to it, a quad has very little to do with being fast, it is really all rider. I am sure someone could get on my 250R and run circles around me on my 450R, even though for me, the 450R is the "faster" quad. It really is what the rider feels comfortable on.

Doug

I agree, options and preferences are nice to have. I personally get bored on a 450.

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
The money isn,t an issue if your j.jone,wimmer,gust etc they get there stuff free and to start off you can get used 4-stroke 450 for 3-4000 and with all the goodies and put a couple grand in motor and be around the same price as a 250r you dont need to go new so that puts an end to your money BS issues for the 450 ,I never said anything about comparing money spent on each quad and which was the better value there the same if you go used and you,ll be spending thousands just to get it to 50hp ! look at the dyno section on dynoing the 250r of buttermilk,s quad bottom line 450 faster on track than your 250r,s IMO.

j jones and wimmer and all those guys had to start someplace and i'll tell you what it was on, a honda 250r, or a honda 250r geo chassis.

i agree everyone fells differnet on each quad, IMO i havnt rode a qaud near what the 250r is.

[John Noftsinger]

i agree with being faster on a 4-stroke myself but boring come on All250r !Sure its boring for you with a fully modded 250r (all aftermaket parts on it/massive motor work) that your probably comparing to a stock 450 ! yeah that would be less exciting to ride than a fully built 250r .but go ride a fully built 450 and say it was boring. and sure you can build a 90hp 250r but its would be 400+cc,s and only for dragging.there are 90hp 450,s bored 50 cc,s more for dragging as well. This i dont understand bore a 250r to 400+cc,s so basicly your going up 200+cc, to get 90hp ,then bore a 450 to 500 and get 90hps aswell .so on a 2-stroke you need to double the cc,s to get 90hp and a 450 bored only 50cc,s(which is around 1/10up in cc,s)to get 90hp aswell Weird!Go look at the dyno chart of a built 250r. To a stockbore/stroke 450 putting down 60+hps look at the broad power/torque compared to the 250r blows it away! 3rd page on 250r build check it out.

[muddymess]

90HP 500 4stokes? I'm no expert and im sure there are poeple out there with crazy cash to make it happen but the only thing close to a 90hp 4stokes iv ever heard of where 800+cc. even the renegade 800r only make 71hp

Some things I found on the internet.
08 250ex: 16.8hp
08 Raptor 250: 18.8
08 300ex: 22.1hp
08 400ex: 34.2hp
08 Z400: 36.6hp
08 YFZ450: 38.6hp
08 Ltr450: 41.6hp
08 KFX450r:42.1
08 450r: 42.6hp
08 Raptor700r: 46.9hp
08 KFX700:48.8
08 700XX: 53hp

DW showed the 250r at 36hp.

[All250R]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
i agree with being faster on a 4-stroke myself but boring come on All250r !Sure its boring for you with a fully modded 250r (all aftermaket parts on it/massive motor work) that your probably comparing to a stock 450 ! yeah that would be less exciting to ride than a fully built 250r .but go ride a fully built 450 and say it was boring. and sure you can build a 90hp 250r but its would be 400+cc,s and only for dragging.there are 90hp 450,s bored 50 cc,s more for dragging as well. This i dont understand bore a 250r to 400+cc,s so basicly your going up 200+cc, to get 90hp ,then bore a 450 to 500 and get 90hps aswell .so on a 2-stroke you need to double the cc,s to get 90hp and a 450 bored only 50cc,s(which is around 1/10up in cc,s)to get 90hp aswell Weird!Go look at the dyno chart of a built 250r. To a stockbore/stroke 450 putting down 60+hps look at the broad power/torque compared to the 250r blows it away! 3rd page on 250r build check it out.
Again, you're showing that you're not very well read. Honda's GP road racer 250cc engine made 90hp. Pull your mellon out of Dirt Wheels for a breath of fresh air my man. It's a big world out there. Don't take my word for it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_RS250R

[John Noftsinger]

Dude why do you try to belittle me with something that has nothing to do with what im saying , that twin 250 GP bike has nothing to do with why i think a 450 is a better track quad than the 250r !oh there are a couple 450rs(chad502ex has done two himself) bored to 500+cc,s putting out hp in the 90 range.they get 60+hp with stock bore/stroke for god sake,s. just check out the 250r build in dyno section page 3 or chads502ex ,s 450r putting out 60+hps with 500cc kit .you,ll see why they are awesome motors there torque is amazing hp too very broad range not short burst then dies like the 250r .

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Dude why do you try to belittle me with something that has nothing to do with what im saying , that twin 250 GP bike has nothing to do with why i think a 450 is a better track quad than the 250r !oh there are a couple 450rs(chad502ex has done two himself) bored to 500+cc,s putting out hp in the 90 range.they get 60+hp with stock bore/stroke for god sake,s. just check out the 250r build in dyno section page 3 or chads502ex ,s 450r putting out 60+hps with 500cc kit .you,ll see why they are awesome motors there torque is amazing hp too very broad range not short burst then dies like the 250r .

[muddymess]

500 sabertooth R
http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/325361-100hpSaberDyno.jpg

:D :D :D

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by muddymess
500 sabertooth R
http://www.planetsand.com/memberphotos/325361-100hpSaberDyno.jpg

:D :D :D


(in a borat voice) Very nice!