Frame

[ratsracung6]

well my son has broke the frame 3 times in the same places every time. they are breaking at the front a-arm bolt and the shock mount lower bolt. well i am trying something different to reinforce it check out the picks. I need to resize the pics they are to big if I can figure it out.

[LTMFB]

Will the BCS frame reinforcement kit fix this?

[ratsracung6]

Originally posted by LTMFB
Will the BCS frame reinforcement kit fix this?


I dont know it might fix the a-arm bolt but I dont think it will fix where the shock mount is. but I have not seen what the kit consists of, all I have seen is the lower part.

[ratsracung6]

Try this one more time.

[TNT]

You know how to use Photobucket? Create an account, upload the pics (theres a bulk uploader for more than one at a time), make it active when browsing you “album” py clicking the photo to a check mark icon, at the bottom there is a “Generate HTML and IMG code”, you’ll be taken to a page with links when you pick that tab you want to copy and paste the (IMG.............IMG) to the post under “IMG images for message boards”....You can post of pic of any size w/PB.

Your pic is too small and I can’t blow it up too much distortion, you need to enlarge you’re pics up first before you attach them, that will not make the file size larger. You can also crop the areas you want. Send it me Terryport@yahoo.com

I think the area you are referring to is this?

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide2-3.jpg
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide1-6.jpg

[LTMFB]

So is this new for the ds450 or an addon?

[ratsracung6]

I will email the pics to u Terry.

[florentino]

Originally posted by ratsracung6
well my son has broke the frame 3 times in the same places every time. they are breaking at the front a-arm bolt and the shock mount lower bolt. well i am trying something different to reinforce it check out the picks. I need to resize the pics they are to big if I can figure it out.

on a crash or regular riding. and did you replace the frame or just the parts.?? as this will help every one else.
also the 2 bolt that go under the skid plate will come lose and thats part of the problem. also check the wheel base on both sides. mine broke in the same area, i talk to one of the pros from motoworks and they told me thats the weak area.
they use computers to make this frame. what a piece of garbage, yes i will never buy any can am atv again.

[xrxmxcx]

Most kits focus on strengthening the a-arm mounting locations, but unfortunately don't do much for prevention of frame failures due to crash/accident. The BCS kit is the best bang for your buck, but if you have a Stage 1 racer support kit, you have most everything.

I'm sure TNT will spend some time telling you exactly why it failed, but out of the products I am familiar with, there is nothing that focus on upper frame components.

[ratsracung6]

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Most kits focus on strengthening the a-arm mounting locations, but unfortunately don't do much for prevention of frame failures due to crash/accident. The BCS kit is the best bang for your buck, but if you have a Stage 1 racer support kit, you have most everything.

I'm sure TNT will spend some time telling you exactly why it failed, but out of the products I am familiar with, there is nothing that focus on upper frame components.


This was not from a crash just norm mx.
Thats why i am trying to reinforce that part of the frame.
You can see it in the pic that is a plate of allum on top of the frame.

[ratsracung6]

http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/ratsracing6/Copyofframe015.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/ratsracing6/Copyofframe016-1.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/ratsracing6/frame018.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/ratsracing6/frame019.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/ratsracing6/frame006.jpg
http://i703.photobucket.com/albums/ww38/ratsracing6/frame007.jpg

[ratsracung6]

OK I got it are those big enough for u Terry?

[TNT]

I’m 50 in two weeks bad eye sight yes you did good much better!:D

Ok the member your finger is pointing to and my diagrams, ...What’s happening here is there is not enough load being transferred between the a-arm bolts with respect to each other so that bolt is taking on too much load. Having loose or worn arm bearing’s will agitate the situation, so check them periodically and replace both if needed. BCS, BRP make reinforcements for this area out of sheet metal that should do the trick for most. ATV4plays in my pic of course the hogged out billet part will be much stronger but more costly....I recommend theirs for A-Class and above and you, I’m getting it. The ATV4Play will do a better job of stabilizing that lateral load and distribute it better & more evenly to both the lower and upper frame and therefore the load the shocks and mounts see, why you only broke one side. The lower arms see much more load than the uppers and lower distribution outward to the arms and shocks has to be even or the everything is subjected to uneven wear, possible too high loading and failure.

This is an isolated case of the mulitple frame failures chalk it up to mfg tolerances, I bet if you were to ask BCS or MW’s if they see that kind of failure often or at all with the kits installed no!

BTW what fastener are you putting back in the hole? It s/b a close fit hole/bolt .001 gap if a bolt/nut lock tight w/red, hi lock is better.

[florentino]

need someone to come out with something better. i am working on my frame i will add some lbs. i have nothing to loose.

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
need someone to come out with something better. i am working on my frame i will add some lbs. i have nothing to loose.

Better? $200-$250 fixes this, race team proven past year. If you got something better by all means come back in a year after pro’s run your design manufacturing non-stop lets see. Then you’ll see how difficult Structural Engineering is and hopefully have more respect for it.

I work around mechanics all day that got no clue or appreciation for Engineering or how it works, thats my job I teach them like I teach you all out here or try to, well some do know it’s not easy and respect it most can't do any better not even close despite how much they boast to thier buddies and mock our Engineering, especially without computers we’d be lost, not perfect but much better than testing tribal knowledge.

Bottom line – you want to prevent this spend the money otherwise it’s our own fault(those that know of the problem)....Most frames need kits, I’m ordering mine tomorrow not taking the chance anymore seen enough! :rolleyes:

[warr72]

No problems in my frame area so far, but I'm with you on the reinforcement kit. Tore down tore bare bones already, so might as well do it atleast for piece of mind.

[LTMFB]

going to get the racer package which has most everything in it anyways!

[ratsracung6]

Terry where I am pointing is not the a-arm bolt it is where the shock mount is the lower bolt. when the shock compresses it puts pressure on the top of the mount which in turn pulls the bottom out and the frame will crack at the bottom bolt hole.

As far as the pros they are breaking these to. If you take a piece of a alum 3/4" and drill a 1/2" hole in it that dont leave nothing left. I just added a little more to it. I am working on a very tight buget so I got to try what I can, who knows whether it will work or not we will see. And I only added about a pound to it.

[Racers Dad 37]

FYI You can see in the photo that show the left front A-arm mount this frame has the a-arm support kit it is the plate add to the front under the bolt heads it is a off color in pics and the support at the other end that the a-arm bolt goes thru before the nut support goes to both a-arm and frame plate goes cross the front of frame bolt to bolt.

Now can I go boast to my buddies

Ratsracung6 I like it, powercoat it and will look good to

[TNT]

Originally posted by ratsracung6
Terry where I am pointing is not the a-arm bolt it is where the shock mount is the lower bolt. when the shock compresses it puts pressure on the top of the mount which in turn pulls the bottom out and the frame will crack at the bottom bolt hole.

As far as the pros they are breaking these to. If you take a piece of a alum 3/4" and drill a 1/2" hole in it that dont leave nothing left. I just added a little more to it. I am working on a very tight buget so I got to try what I can, who knows whether it will work or not we will see. And I only added about a pound to it.

You have a 2009 frame thats been updated and still has issues being there is not enough cross section that you keep failing the extrusion and they took an extrustion and hot formed it, heat or cold forming by stretch dies can weaken al and especially where a hole is.

Yeah strengthen your frame as you are you could probably get some thicker plates make it yourself and replace the reinforcement plates to keep the load even on both sides as I described. Just use the old plates as a templete to route the new thicker ones out of a 2024-T3, Welding 6061-T6 btw....we're getting the ATV4PLAY billet part. Doubt your boy notices any weight differences, we added 5 lbs to the axle far from the CG noticed nothing! Hope it works for ya this time, see ya at the races. Terry

[Racers Dad 37]

GOOD LUCK with the ATV FOUR PLAY I was on the phone with Tom the owner this afternoon he is out of them and can only order them if he has 12 sets made he said he will only order if he has 6 sets sold and they will be some want time

Note: we are change to BCS / BRP because we found one down side to 4play setup is to service the upper a-arm you must remove the radiator to get the a-arm mounting bolts out taken time you may not have on race day if you have to make a change.

But if you want a set we will have a set for sale shortly

[TNT]

RATSRACUNG6 Do me a favor since you have the frame torn apart, mic the thickness of the stock 2009 plates. Guess we got to do this on our own. I wish I had a quad here.

RD: Good info finally! Sweet spend $250 on ATV4PLAY FOR NOTHING!!!! :rolleyes:

[Racers Dad 37]

BCS / BRP or ATV4PLAY kit would have stop this not the part they support and I have both

[TNT]

Originally posted by Racers Dad 37
GOOD LUCK with the ATV FOUR PLAY I was on the phone with Tom the owner this afternoon he is out of them and can only order them if he has 12 sets made he said he will only order if he has 6 sets sold and they will be some want time

Note: we are change to BCS / BRP because we found one down side to 4play setup is to service the upper a-arm you must remove the radiator to get the a-arm mounting bolts out taken time you may not have on race day if you have to make a change.

But if you want a set we will have a set for sale shortly

More I think about I may buy it from you I am flying to Tulsa end of month to see this. You got two quads if I remember right and xtra arms, we don't have two quads and to be honest not sure I'll buy another. But if this 4play keeps my frame from breaking who cares about time to replace arms or bearing's, my son and I can tear the quad down to bare bones in a hour in our very tooled rig @ races, he's a atv mechanic me just some dumb wanna be......lol!

[TNT]

Originally posted by Racers Dad 37
GOOD LUCK with the ATV FOUR PLAY I was on the phone with Tom the owner this afternoon he is out of them and can only order them if he has 12 sets made he said he will only order if he has 6 sets sold and they will be some want time

Note: we are change to BCS / BRP because we found one down side to 4play setup is to service the upper a-arm you must remove the radiator to get the a-arm mounting bolts out taken time you may not have on race day if you have to make a change.

But if you want a set we will have a set for sale shortly

Hey RD how about doing us all a favor, take some pics of the clearance problem your having and send it to your buddy Tom at 4play and ask if we can get the six or more orders will he machine both upper and lower reinforcement kits for the DS, he may fix yours for free, we've done alot of prototyping like that. Maybe you could offer up some suggestions based on having first hand experience with his instl. Send me the pics too they have sponsored us in the past and I can possible offer some suggestions.

XRX too, he says he puts two plates below but upper/lower billet parts of the same or close design and thickness would be ideal, the lower is more crucial than upper since the lower arms see the most load coming in from the tires.

Terry Terrylport@yahoo.com

[Blizzard24]

If the Upper shock mount is a problem why dont you Tig the mount to the frame? This would eliminate the hi-locs and any flex associated with them?

What would be the down side to this?

[Racers Dad 37]

Originally posted by Racers Dad 37
BCS / BRP or ATV4PLAY kit would have stop this not the part they support and I have both

SORRY! TO EVERYONE READING THIS POST!

I WANTED TO STATE THE KITS WOULD NOT!! HAVE STOP THIS !!!

SORRY!

[TNT]

RD - I was wondering what you were saying. I think they would and I keep explaining why. RD nice to make statements like that but back them up with reasoning.

If you get load transfer accross both the upper and lower transfer plates properly that will take load off the shocks and mounts.

DOES NOT look good to me at all not even powder coated! - The shocks should never see that much load to see that big a tab, they just dampen forces not take load out. He has to use them as structural members that will cause shock wear and ineffectivness.

Ill call 4play today since you didn't respond

[TNT]

Most of that load has to transfer in the lower arm then the upper but the plates are not big enough to make the transfer. XRX understands.

[allbones512]

The bcs or brp frame reinforcement kit will help this?

[Racers Dad 37]

They are only to Support the end on the UPPER A-ARMS That was not supported on the 08 they have NO relationship to the LOWER A-ARMS and SHOCKS

AS FOR BACKING THIS UP JUST LOOK!!! AT THE PHOTOS I WOULD SAY IT DON'T WORK
THIS FRAME HAS THE SAME BRP KIT THAT COMES WITH THE STAGE ONE KITS AND I HAVE HAD FRAME DAMAGE WITH THE 4 PLAY KIT ON 2 FRAMES, IT IS NO!!!! ADDED SUPPORT MAYBE LET CAUSE IT ONLY BOLTS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BILLET SUPPORT TO THE FRAME AND THE A-ARM MAKE 4 MOUNTING POINTS AND KNOW ADD PLATE IN FRONT OF THE FRAME THE BCS/BRP MOUNTS TO FRAME IN 4 PLACES PLUS THE A-ARM MAKE 6 MOUNTING POINTS ADD SUPPORT PLATE IN FRONT OF FRAME THAT MORE SUPPORT POINTS FOR THE UPPER A-ARMS AND THE UPPER A-ARMS ONLY...
JUST LOOK 4PLAY CALL THE KIT UPPER A-ARM MOUNTING NOT FRAME SUPPORT CALL TOM AND SEE IF HE TELL YOU THAT THE MOUNTS WILL STOP DAMAGE LIKE THIS

SORRY about this all others that but this guy starting to pi_ _ me off

[TNT]

Just talked to BCS and we looked at all these photos, they have hardly ANY frame breaks so don't know whats going on with you RD.........Going from 4play back to BCS now? Your confused!

Think we figured it out tho the problem maybe they will make some new billet kits.

[Racers Dad 37]

Whats going on is you making statements like

" Nice to make statements like that but back them up with reasoning"

When in this case the back up was right in front of you.

[TNT]

Just talked to Tom at 4play he NEVER heard of ANY problems with clearing the radiator or more frame problems even after talking to you RD yesterday. Said he's in full agreement as BCS is with me on my line of reasoning.

Commended me for doing a GREAT job supporting this site and the way I handle myself, does not understand why I put up with ppl like RD that get "pi##" when I am just trying to help people out. ME NEITHER!!!

We need a order of six his product solves this.

[xrxmxcx]

Originally posted by TNT
Just talked to Tom at 4play he NEVER heard of ANY problems with clearing the radiator or more frame problems even after talking to you RD yesterday. Said he's in full agreement as BCS is with me on my line of reasoning.

Commended me for doing a GREAT job supporting this site and the way I handle myself, does not understand why I put up with ppl like RD that get "pi##" when I am just trying to help people out. ME NEITHER!!!

We need a order of six his product solves this.

The issue is not clearing the radiator TNT. The issue is EVERYTIME you want to make a caster adjustment you have to pull the radiator to fit a socket into the mounting plate because it has a recessed hole. It was clear as day in the post, and if you look at the photo of the ATV4 mounts, you will see what we are talking about.

Billet AL VS Steel that we can actually work on with ease, STEEL WINS!

[xrxmxcx]

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide1-6.jpg

In this picture the radiator isn't in place, you can see the recessed hole, and it is directly behind it!

[xrxmxcx]

Everyone agrees that the mounting brackets either brand (BCS or ATV4) do there job, but the front loop failure is not likely because of movement of lack of support in that area. Everyone saw the video of what it took to break the front loop of our frame. Usually there is more to the story, and it is a red flag for something in the frame moving or bending. Most likely cause is movement or bending in the frame cradle, and instead of twisting or fatiguing like the other frame pieces, it is likely to stress and crack because it is taking the load at a completely different angle then the rest of the frame.

Most we have heard of or talked to, the frame has shifted at the front most point of the cradle, where the two torque head bolts are located. Also the area where the two HiLocs connect the cradle to the front arm mount portion.

Here is a picture of our bike with the radiator in place, have fun getting to them without messing w/ the radiator!

[xrxmxcx]

Compared to what the BCS kit is..you can get to the mounting bolts! Pretty nice and a much more complete kit for the $!

[TNT]

Clear as day to who? Tom? Not! BCS? NO! BRP obviously not they designed this mess! Me nope, you because you have the fitting. Access to the bolt or caster adj is the last thing I am concerned about. First we need a kit that solves the prob, access and convienence icing on the cake! I mean look at the engine compartment and rest of quad, this thing IS NOT mechanic friendly! I don't think movement or flex is causing this directly, it's a result of poor load transfer between the arms that can cause flex or failure.

The 09 frame has the same thin sheet metal that the BRP/BCS kit has and is not doing the trick as shown in the pics rats posted, 4play takes care of upper but the bottom is where the BIGGER problems lies noone has addressed properly..... You using two plates better but not enough, need billet attached to the RIGHT fasteners that take out the load.

Without a NASTRAN loads model this is ALL speculation, but just using years of intuition 25 to be exact of Structures Engieering, I think if we stabilize the arms attach load transfer we have a good testing point for average to advanced racers that have and may see these failures.

[TNT]

Ok lets get back to your prob too many distractions. I think I see gussets that look nice buddy but are they in front of your radiator blocking airflow?

[ratsracung6]

They cover just a little bit at the bottom corners.they should be allright.

[Blizzard24]

ok strike my comment about the shock mount, i reread the post and see where the crack is.

i am just wondering if its the hy-loc causing the problem. the 08 stage 1 kit comes with bolts instead of hy-locs but the 09 frames have the kit installed with the hy-locs.

According to TNT, BCS is seeing few frame failures here as is xcxmxcx with his bikes, using the bolts instead of the hy-locs.

Just a thought that maybe the hy-locs are either stretching enough to cause movement or the diameter is too small causing movement

[TNT]

I keep explaining the problem is they put a hole in a bend that sees alot of bending from the arms and the hole is too big for the cross-section period. Only problem with the fastener is it's TOO BIG!

These are gussets that brace the bending load, my concern is obstruction the radiator and mud packing expecially for XC riders IF it gets through. If you run louvers that already block the radiator from air this may not be good on a hot day. Don't run the limp for sure, and BCS has a always on larger fan and robust coolant system.

You could route out some vent holes and have used some thicker plates to get your volume of metal up.

I'm going to take a look at this area next weekend see what we can do. Talk to BCS and 4 play again.

IF I WERE YOU I"D TELL BRP TO REFUND YOUR MONEY FOR THE THREE FRAME MEMBERS THEY KNEW WOULD FAIL. IT"S A WELL KNOWN DESIGN FLAW AND SALES OF THAT PART SHOULD STOP IMMEDIATELY!

[Blizzard24]

find someone to set up a jig and build this section out of chromoly with the a arm mount tig'd in, no holes, strong and lightweight steel, end of issue.

[TNT]

I think it's going to crack eventually where the end of the gusset is where there is a sharp corner to the original frame. First if you made it or steel now you got a super strong section feeding a weaker aluminum welded section where we typically see cracks. 2020-T3/T6 welds poorly especially to 4130 unless friction stir welded, This design really needs more surface area and BIG 5'' radii to blend the load into the frame. Once you do that you have obstructed the radiator too much, putting too much structure in front of the radiator not good.

BRP needs to stop selling and/or someone needs to replace that bent square frame member with NO BENDS! NO BIG HOLES! 2-3 bolted parts per side not one. Bolted together straight extruded AL sections. In other words, the detail part the finger is pointing to needs a redesign, that simple issue solved should be done in 2010.

[TNT]

Here is a weld design I drew up real fast, it could also be reinforced with sheet metal brackets bolted instead of welded. Now we just need a crafty hands on metal fab guy to try it...I pick up two bolts instead of one through the Z bracket and my holes have lots of tear out room to the edge, I also increase the gage of the extrusion by .020 or so which is still light.

This design needs a new aluminum 2024-T3 Z-bracket(you can buy extruded z sections cut to length, easy) and welded 6061-T6 Front Frame Assembly made of extruded rectangular bar stock you buy and cut to length then weld, left hand right hand opposite(should be able to flip over not mirror or need two different assemblies, just 1).

I only drew the left hand side, right hand side not shown stopped drawing down the center of the radiator. Also drawn side ways left is up. Don't ask why I did that I was looking at the pic that is sideways in the thread lol.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSWELDDESIGN.jpg

This is really an easy fix I could come up with more designs so could BRP or BCS or maybe some of you all, but this is what we need to focus on not bandaiding the bad design, we need to rid of the bad BRP design. If mine failed this is what I'd do and would not buy a stock replacement. :D

[xrxmxcx]

Originally posted by Blizzard24
find someone to set up a jig and build this section out of chromoly with the a arm mount tig'd in, no holes, strong and lightweight steel, end of issue.

I like the idea's! We have a frame at the shop and we've been screwing around with it and looking at making some stuff for sh"ts and giggles. Bored during the winter inside in the cold is good times messing around in the shop and with the bridgeport!

:eek2:

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I like the idea's! We have a frame at the shop and we've been screwing around with it and looking at making some stuff for sh"ts and giggles. Bored during the winter inside in the cold is good times messing around in the shop and with the bridgeport!

:eek2:

Let me know what you come up with man, I think having replacement chromoly parts available when these aluminum parts fail will only make this quad bullet proof an since the frame is modular you wouldnt have to break the bank all at once.

[ratsracung6]

Well so far so good went and practiced sun at Athens mx. The frame has held up so far. we will test it again this weekend, I will keep yall posted how it holds up.

Scott

[andiboy123]

i install the new bumper so you can see the diference in measurements
and what the car chassis fixer told me.

1-on the first pic you will se the movement of the frame how it got twist
2-on the second you will se the level over the front bumper
3- on the third and fourth pic you will se how the nose is bent
taking measures from the new bumpers to the a arms
4- on the fifth pic is the tube that is bend and crack on the rivet
tha suport the base of the a arm
5- on the six pic is the crack rigth on the rivet

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/ANDIBOY123/1-9.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/ANDIBOY123/2-6.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/ANDIBOY123/3-3.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/ANDIBOY123/4-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/ANDIBOY123/5-2.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v497/ANDIBOY123/6-1.jpg

BY THE WAY I STILL SAY THE DS IS THE BEST 450 OUT THERE!!!!!!!

[ratsracung6]

Thanks for the pics Andi I will keep an eye on that part of the frame too.

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
I think it's going to crack eventually where the end of the gusset is where there is a sharp corner to the original frame. First if you made it or steel now you got a super strong section feeding a weaker aluminum welded section where we typically see cracks. 2020-T3/T6 welds poorly especially to 4130 unless friction stir welded, This design really needs more surface area and BIG 5'' radii to blend the load into the frame. Once you do that you have obstructed the radiator too much, putting too much structure in front of the radiator not good.

BRP needs to stop selling and/or someone needs to replace that bent square frame member with NO BENDS! NO BIG HOLES! 2-3 bolted parts per side not one. Bolted together straight extruded AL sections. In other words, the detail part the finger is pointing to needs a redesign, that simple issue solved should be done in 2010.
now you are taking. hey tnt you are the man thanks for all the help. but remember how you said i was bashing on the frame,
lol any ways .. i really know that one of us will have our own custom gusset kit. its been only 2 years and we are now having broken frames all over the place. i got on the hq forum and same thing broken frames. whats going to happen in 5 years on this frames. can am has to step up and help, so they made a feather lite frame and put the biggest motor a tank on it..
does any one have a chart of all the frame specs how many lbs ..
i was thinking trx frame 450r trx250, i am looking for some cromoly steel to start making mine hybrid. yes i english sucks ..

[andiboy123]

I have being sitting a side looking to all these post with a broken frame on my own. As DS owners we are stock with a great quad with a bad design on the front part of our frame. We didn’t make a bad decision of getting a real good quad; we only have to deal with issues of a new one. We have a problem on 4 front square tubes all 4 are attach to the upper a-arm, tubes that I think we can replace with a harder material and weld parts instead of bolting them. Engineers did fail on the easy part but like we said on the engineering office I work, it’s not how the computer says it it’s what the field shows you that make good engineering decisions. I will get a new frame soon, but I will remake my frame. Also remember how YFZ-R are breaking their frames on the aluminum parts. Frames are the part that holds the most impact and I think it shouldn’t be made on aluminum.
Ps. We can put 15 pounds on our DS an we will still have the lightest ATV!!!!

[florentino]

Originally posted by andiboy123
I have being sitting a side looking to all these post with a broken frame on my own. As DS owners we are stock with a great quad with a bad design on the front part of our frame. We didn’t make a bad decision of getting a real good quad; we only have to deal with issues of a new one. We have a problem on 4 front square tubes all 4 are attach to the upper a-arm, tubes that I think we can replace with a harder material and weld parts instead of bolting them. Engineers did fail on the easy part but like we said on the engineering office I work, it’s not how the computer says it it’s what the field shows you that make good engineering decisions. I will get a new frame soon, but I will remake my frame. Also remember how YFZ-R are breaking their frames on the aluminum parts. Frames are the part that holds the most impact and I think it shouldn’t be made on aluminum.
Ps. We can put 15 pounds on our DS an we will still have the lightest ATV!!!!

you can not weld on to this frame .. thats what makes it more hard. why cause the its too thin to weld.

also if you do fix that one area. the strees will go on to the
other area.

if you look at the kfx its way diferent frame on that one you can weld and add gussets.

the new yamaha its a tank the frame its way better .. those japan guys are smart. they really did there home work.

now that i rode the new yamaha i have the say its the best out of the box

[TNT]

A little about Fatigue Life, Limit, and Ultimate loads so you all understand help put it more in perspective,

Fatigue Life Cycle - or the amount of time it takes for structure to fail under normal operating loads. Real difficult and expensive to capture in Preliminary Design, even though there are material guidelines or “allowables”, still VERY much dependant on the exact design and ACTUAL loads(eg. mx, xc, x). I have directed MANY fatigue life test to failure in my career, it’s challenging to design the test, fixture’s, etc, that simulate “normal operating loads” that we see in the field. In the case of race ready quads (mx, xc, x) to what class, loads, environment, etc. MX is different than XC/X, one can only imagine all the frame details, riders, and loads conditions out there to test to. So we set up a bench test put the part into “cyclic loading” let it run for days if needed counting the cycles to Ultimate failure, this would be a good test for a clutch assemble that is primarily designed to fatigue( numerous loads). We try and capture commonalities between MX, XC, X, to limit the amount of production parts to the OEM factory floor by not having different designs.

Static Test Article – Other testing I have been a part of were we build a static (meaning no rider) test fixture that test “Limit Loads” (where the part begins to fail) and “Ultimate Load” (part fails like crash loads) in bending or flex. Here we build a prototype (maybe several) frame(s) and weld tie rods to it connect the tie rods to hydraulics that bend and twist the frame in a static test fixture. Imagine that, bend that frame until it begins to fail or cracks (I’ve seen parts worth millions we fail intentionally), you can bet had this been done to this frame we would have found this weak area seen above. Also the data can used as empirical (captured data) that becomes the industry designs guides reducing the need for test in the future. We put stress/strain gages on the frame to develop values in ft-lbs over distance per say, these loads are used as inputs to a Nastran loads computer model that we design structure to. It’s a robust design/build process of updating the model and structure(otherwise the Nastran model can be misleading), testing, failing it again and again so that if we fixed one area that hurt another we find it(why I say it’s hard to say if you have a local fix what it does to the entire frame), weight reduction, while keeping lean cost effective manufacturing and part reduction. So IF we release a frame for example that will never fail even a crash that is 150% Limit Load or has a 150% margin or is over designed, but it’s a tank in weight or costly production parts – no good! Rather we find the right structure that is strong, light weight, cost effective, yes that can be aluminum IF designed right, look at most of the aircraft you fly in or Cannondale.

Factories - can hire pro’s to test their prototypes to a point, not very effective as a stand alone test but cost effective. Will they capture all that is structurally needed, probably not, could they? yes for a cost passed down to the consumer. Will there be mistakes? Yes, even with elaborate testing trust me I’ve seen it. Make no mistake BRP has aircraft technology way beyond the DS and can make a frame that would rarely fail even a crash given the R&D budget.

Maintenance and Reliability - such test data derived from cyclic and static test articles can be used to determine “Mean Time Between Failures” or reliability and maintenance intervals you all see in shop manuals.

Bottom Line - We know we got a good design when it passes the test of time in MX, XC, X, that includes mine and the others above, if not back to the drawing board, we CAN accelerate time by static/cyclic test but costly. This simple case of not enough material thickness to put a big hole and 1 fastener(needs 2-3 smaller ones) in a aluminum bend radius that needs more thickness to even weld to. I got no idea how that made it by NASTRAN/testing it would not make it by preliminary hand calculations(no computer ol school methods) in my world.

We have an excellent local aluminum welder and metal fab guy that has built kits for bikes and quads. When I fly to Tulsa this weekend I will look at the area clean up my design and get him to build it, then install and test on our quad IF all goes well offer it as a better replacement than the BRP member.

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by florentino
you can not weld on to this frame .. thats what makes it more hard. why cause the its too thin to weld.

also if you do fix that one area. the strees will go on to the
other area.

if you look at the kfx its way diferent frame on that one you can weld and add gussets.

the new yamaha its a tank the frame its way better .. those japan guys are smart. they really did there home work.

now that i rode the new yamaha i have the say its the best out of the box

1) You are absolutely wrong in stating you can not weld the frame because it is too thin. That is exactly what Tig Welding is for. .010-.060 inches can be welded by an experienced welder. It generates much less heat and doesnt burn through nearly as easy as the other welding processes.

2) Making one area stronger may in fact add stress to another area, and only real world testing can verify that. What do you have to lose? Maybe fixing another area?

3) Have fun with the KFX... the frame may be stronger (maybe) but have fun tracing the wiring to find all the electrical problems they have.

4) Yup the Japs really did their homework. Houser has to make a relocating bracket for the A arms to correct the caster/rake issues on the new YFZR and GNCC had to modify the rules to allow this bracket... Honda? Yup, they built the 06+ and everyone is changing the spindles/hubs back to 05 to fix their steering issues... they def did their homework. Suzuki? 4 years later and they are still dropping third gear and having shift pin issues.

If you spent as much time trying to find a way to repair the frame as you do complaining about Can Am you would have a solution in place already and talking about how many holeshots you are pulling on LTRs and YFZ's. But telling everybody how bad the machine sucks is easier to do I guess.

[andiboy123]

Originally posted by Blizzard24
1) You are absolutely wrong in stating you can not weld the frame because it is too thin. That is exactly what Tig Welding is for. .010-.060 inches can be welded by an experienced welder. It generates much less heat and doesnt burn through nearly as easy as the other welding processes.

2) Making one area stronger may in fact add stress to another area, and only real world testing can verify that. What do you have to lose? Maybe fixing another area?

3) Have fun with the KFX... the frame may be stronger (maybe) but have fun tracing the wiring to find all the electrical problems they have.

4) Yup the Japs really did their homework. Houser has to make a relocating bracket for the A arms to correct the caster/rake issues on the new YFZR and GNCC had to modify the rules to allow this bracket... Honda? Yup, they built the 06+ and everyone is changing the spindles/hubs back to 05 to fix their steering issues... they def did their homework. Suzuki? 4 years later and they are still dropping third gear and having shift pin issues.

If you spent as much time trying to find a way to repair the frame as you do complaining about Can Am you would have a solution in place already and talking about how many holeshots you are pulling on LTRs and YFZ's. But telling everybody how bad the machine sucks is easier to do I guess.

thanks bilizz now you got to the point. i dont like to talt to haters bc they never loose, but where florentino is they seems to dont have profecionals at their jobs, he is the first one that i hear that you cant weld on a thin aluminum hehehe every person on this forum thad have an issue with his quad helps to get a solution to the problems and thanks to us all the ds comunity knows how to solve their problems, so .....

[ratsracung6]

Originally posted by andiboy123
thanks bilizz now you got to the point. i dont like to talt to haters bc they never loose, but where florentino is they seems to dont have profecionals at their jobs, he is the first one that i hear that you cant weld on a thin aluminum hehehe every person on this forum thad have an issue with his quad helps to get a solution to the problems and thanks to us all the ds comunity knows how to solve their problems, so .....


AMEN!!!

[TNT]

Can anyone guess WHY BRP did not incorporate welds in thier design? I mean in most cases a good welder can weld faster than installing lock bolts? On the assy line time is money.

So why is it we see NO WELDS?

[fortune46x]

they've been doing it since atvs started, Can am tried to be different and experiment. the only thing I could think would be you would get more flex with a rivet setup vs a weld setup but the problem there is egged out holes etc. welds can break and thin the integrety of the metal where it begins and ends if you want proper penetration. Regaurdless frames are going to break no matter what the brand its a fact of riding. if you dont want to pay to maintain a machine (granted this isnt common maintence but they do make brackets to strengthen the frame in its trouble spots) perhaps you should look into a new hobby like knitting? very little maintence there execept the price of yarn can be so dang expensive...

[florentino]

Originally posted by andiboy123
thanks bilizz now you got to the point. i dont like to talt to haters bc they never loose, but where florentino is they seems to dont have profecionals at their jobs, he is the first one that i hear that you cant weld on a thin aluminum hehehe every person on this forum thad have an issue with his quad helps to get a solution to the problems and thanks to us all the ds comunity knows how to solve their problems, so .....

ok heres a vid from brp. in thier works they said you can not weld aluminum because it looses their properties .. ha just facts
there was some one in here that weld it some gussetts and broke .. i am working on a frame gessedd my self. i have the bike i am stuck with it. so what can i do.
now the frame does have some steel at some places thats where i am going to weld,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAkmqNGqfIw

[fortune46x]

you cannot weld cast aluminum due to the fact that it is no longer pure aluminum when you cast it , lead and other things are added to promote good flow in a casting.

[florentino]

4) Yup the Japs really did their homework. Houser has to make a relocating bracket for the A arms to correct the caster/rake issues on the new YFZR and GNCC had to modify the rules to allow this bracket... Honda? Yup, they built the 06+ and everyone is changing the spindles/hubs back to 05 to fix their steering issues... they def did their homework. Suzuki? 4 years later and they are still dropping third gear and having shift pin issues.

If you spent as much time trying to find a way to repair the frame as you do complaining about Can Am you would have a solution in place already and talking about how many holeshots you are pulling on LTRs and YFZ's. But telling everybody how bad the machine sucks is easier to do I guess. [/B][/QUOTE]
honda its really not that hard to change the spindles not a big deal. can am make 70 hp. more like 60 and it will cost a fortune too. and it wont last.
i have rode all the 450s i and i know ... the kfx has a nice frame but i dont like it some how feal stiff,
ltr is my next bike. or a honda. but we are in all in bad times.
but heres the thing theres a lot of regular riders that just want to buy a quad and go ride. no to have it in the dealear for 2 months because parts are in canada.. or to be trail riding and fo find the cluch granede. this are regular joe slow ridind in the trails.

[florentino]

Originally posted by fortune46x
you cannot weld cast aluminum due to the fact that it is no longer pure aluminum when you cast it , lead and other things are added to promote good flow in a casting.

thanks, its good to know some one knows

[TNT]

Lots of confusion! Let's start w/the basic's read this and take note of the 2XXX and 6XXX wrought alloys used on our frame tubes that are failing. Be back soon with some more facts.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/AL1PIC.jpg

[TNT]

XXX – determine the alloy content that and the fabrication process determine mechanical properties, tempering used to strengthening mechanism employed. Ie. 2024-T3(temper)


T3 solution heat-treatede, cold worked, and naturally
aged to a substantially stable condition.
Applies to products which are cold worked to
improve strength after solution heat-treatment, or
in which the effect of cold work in flattening or
straightening is recognized in mechanical
property limits.
c Numerals 1 through 9 may be arbitrarily assigned as the third digit and registered with The Aluminum Association for an alloy

T6 solution heat-treatede and artificially aged.
Applies to products which are not cold worked
after solution heat-treatment or in which the
effect of cold work in flattening or straightening
may not be recognized in mechanical property
limits.


As you see alloy and temper play a vital part role in mechanical properties as much as geometry (.080 X 1.5 X 1.6)

Fabrication properties such as sheet, plate, forged or extruded bar stock, grain direction, are BIG factors to strengthen the design. LOT more to it than just grabbing some metal and slapping it together, not orientating the grain direction right can ruin the application, applying heat can ruin the temper and properties of the aging process, cold working the wrong alloy too.

Back soon
:D

[TNT]

Take a look at the failed joint, you can see this tube is extruded bar stock I'm guessing 2024-T3/T6 it's good extruded. The cross-section and extrusions are known for thier strength as is 2024(more on it soon). The grain direction in the case along the length but they bent it in a stretch die maybe w/heat and knocked down the mechanical properties.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/Slide2-3.jpg
[IMG]

As I said many times, the problem here is there is not enough cross section to take the large hole and strong lock bolt, the tube is too thin. Two fasteners in smaller holes at this location OR a thicker tube solves the problem, that and stronger transverse plates upper and lower arms. Problem is we can't buy the BRP part without the hole I think. We could bush the hole with a freeze plug(nitrogen) and reduce the bolt but thats sorta chinxy. If this joint was welded NO Holes it would never last(more on that soon)

[mhill157]

Reading all these frame problems remind me of my Honda 450r. Since I have never been able to afford 2 quads at once, I got a lot of hours on the frame. Hard to believe I had to replace the frame every year. I don't care if you gusset a frame or not they are going to break. I have never seen a computer simulate casing a 70' triple. Way to many variables in that equation.

My only question is how will the cast aluminum pieces in the frame hold up if you change the stiffness of the frame?

If it was as easy as going to a machine shop and having some tubing bent to the same geometry then I'm game.

[TNT]

Originally posted by mhill157
Reading all these frame problems remind me of my Honda 450r. Since I have never been able to afford 2 quads at once, I got a lot of hours on the frame. Hard to believe I had to replace the frame every year. I don't care if you gusset a frame or not they are going to break. I have never seen a computer simulate casing a 70' triple. Way to many variables in that equation.

My only question is how will the cast aluminum pieces in the frame hold up if you change the stiffness of the frame?

If it was as easy as going to a machine shop and having some tubing bent to the same geometry then I'm game.

Good points - Might be more conservative of an approach to redistribute the load more evenly to a smaller area vs large one by stiffening the entire member or some compromise.

That BRP stock looks like about .050-.060. Look at my design concept I take load off one fastener common to the z-bracket and tube and distribute to two smaller ones w/more edge margin, we could leave the gage at .050-.060 try this keeping the load down below along with thicker transverse plate like the 4-play. If that doesn't fail another part casting's being the weakest link then we're good to go, if it does back to the drawing board. The casting's are pretty big on the quad so prolly allright. If we still fail the joint then beef up the tubes test again.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/DSWELDDESIGN.jpg

[TNT]

Look at the last paragraph, there is a knock down factor we apply to welds that loose strength compared to fastened joints. The knock down factor is greater for thinner material.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/WELD.jpg

Look at the rating of 2024 vs 6061, our frame more than likely 2024 since it has no welds. Our frame is not very adaptable to welding, gas or arc.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/WELD2.jpg

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/6061.jpg

You can see the mechanical properties of 2024 are better than 6061, it has better 'creep" resistance for you powder coaters but not very good property for welding.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/2024.jpg
[IMG]

Hope that helps clear up some confusion. :D

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by florentino
thanks, its good to know some one knows

the parts we are talking about here are extruded aluminum, the Saddles are cast. these tubes are thick enough to tig weld and with the right gussets would eliminate a lot of these issues.

[TNT]

This frame is made of the wrong material and is too thin for welding, the design intent was not welding or gussets like 4130 steel. This frame has too big holes in a bend radius no weld will fix permanently over time mark my words. Welded gussets are not the answer, newly design joint/no bend frame member is w/more smaller diameter fasteners and larger transverse plates to distribute the load coming in from the arms better.

You all do as you will with the facts stated above. Good luck!

[mhill157]

TNT, my next question is, how will this effect us that run production classes? We can't replace frame pieces unless you can do it without anyone noticing. I will work in the gray area when it comes to rules.

[fullthrottle247]

I have also broken my frame in the same place as you about 10 times and i found out theat the bolt that goes up through the belly skid plate right in front of the oil tank kept coming loose, this bolt holds the whole front end from swiveling i have replaced my front peices myself and put lock tight on that bolt and have done both xc and mx races since then and have not cracked it yet so check that bolt just in case its something simple like that...

[fortune46x]

mhill157 - You are ama legal as long as you replace frame components with stock frame components. the frame brace kit I dont think changes you out of production class but I could be wrong

tnt- my mistake I thought he was talking about the hips I didnt realize it was the hilocs on the front. Supposidly the frame is changing in 2011 so we'll see what they come out with.

Everyone else: Reguardless you will always have something break if you push a quad and ride it hard. There is no sense in arguing the fact if you can weld it or not. if you can great go do it , if you cant oh well time to spend some money. but 5 pages of arguing about if you can or cant fix this is a little over the top dont ya think? try it , if your frames broke what are you out ? youll never known untill you do.

[florentino]

Originally posted by fullthrottle247
I have also broken my frame in the same place as you about 10 times and i found out theat the bolt that goes up through the belly skid plate right in front of the oil tank kept coming loose, this bolt holds the whole front end from swiveling i have replaced my front peices myself and put lock tight on that bolt and have done both xc and mx races since then and have not cracked it yet so check that bolt just in case its something simple like that...
thats what happen to me and i lot of riders .. so why is brp not helping out. as this is some fatory flaw, just like a recall.
i think that once you break some thing on the frame the whole frame comes apart thats why keeps breaking on the same place.

[TNT]

Originally posted by fortune46x
mhill157 - You are ama legal as long as you replace frame components with stock frame components. the frame brace kit I dont think changes you out of production class but I could be wrong

tnt- my mistake I thought he was talking about the hips I didnt realize it was the hilocs on the front. Supposidly the frame is changing in 2011 so we'll see what they come out with.

Everyone else: Reguardless you will always have something break if you push a quad and ride it hard. There is no sense in arguing the fact if you can weld it or not. if you can great go do it , if you cant oh well time to spend some money. but 5 pages of arguing about if you can or cant fix this is a little over the top dont ya think? try it , if your frames broke what are you out ? youll never known untill you do.

Thats my understanding, about the frame rules applying to shock mounts, other frames use gussets this is the age of AL technology where gussets may not work hard to say.....

Just for the record I didn't put five pages of data to argue it, just thought some would like some more knowledge on the subject so I don't have to argue with a few anymore! lol! It was a good refresher for me been a while since I looked at that stuff but whats more important to me in it all is knowing where to look and learning.

[florentino]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blizzard24
the parts we are talking about here are extruded aluminum, the Saddles are cast. these tubes are thick enough to tig weld and with the right gussets would eliminate a lot of these issues. [/QUOTE

if that was the case i would have done it already.
if you see the kfx frame is way ticker ..
it seems like street bikes are already ahead in the frame. made in japan then you see ducati make theirs with steel.
i love the front end on the can am best ever,
i got you a vid from you tube did you see it from brp

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
thats what happen to me and i lot of riders .. so why is brp not helping out. as this is some fatory flaw, just like a recall.
i think that once you break some thing on the frame the whole frame comes apart thats why keeps breaking on the same place.

Agree, a recall! Guy that started this thread was sold the part what 3 times and the race team and BRP know it will fail. Sorry thats wrong! They should freeze production on the part re-release then where would no concerns about prod classes. I mean this part just not failing racers it's rec riders too. That joint gets hit right a 10 yr old riding trails can fail it. BRP is calling this quad X MX/X XC so it should take novice racing loads at least.

[TNT]

Originally posted by fullthrottle247
I have also broken my frame in the same place as you about 10 times and i found out theat the bolt that goes up through the belly skid plate right in front of the oil tank kept coming loose, this bolt holds the whole front end from swiveling i have replaced my front peices myself and put lock tight on that bolt and have done both xc and mx races since then and have not cracked it yet so check that bolt just in case its something simple like that...

Yeah thats what Florintino said I'll look at the skid when I see the quad tomorrow, thats if I get through the ice storm Memphis may be where I say the night trying to get to Tulsa where the ice is tonight for a race Sat night....not looking good! . :huh

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
ok heres a vid from brp. in thier works they said you can not weld aluminum because it looses their properties .. ha just facts
there was some one in here that weld it some gussetts and broke .. i am working on a frame gessedd my self. i have the bike i am stuck with it. so what can i do.
now the frame does have some steel at some places thats where i am going to weld,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAkmqNGqfIw

Just now watched that video, seen it year ago. They tell you why they didn't use welds in the video! Looks like a real NASTRAN model allright BUT as I was telling you all how that model is developed is key. You have to develop the loads from the model from a prototype usually by stress strain gages, then go design the quad, then make changes, the bench test as I discribed by static or cyclic test, then protoype/adjust/rebuild, retest, update NASTRAN, redesign, you get the idea. That close the gap between theory and reality. Otherwise you can't say you used NASTRAN not to it's potential.

Most companies to invest that kind of R&D money need orders, YFZr had 5 years of sales in the 450 racing industry they had a basis for ROI. Can had to take the risk, Kawi little less.

He's wrong, all the DS loads are not in compression or tension, theres moment arm bending, torque(flex) at this joint that is failing it look at it, couples(opposing forces), fatigue fracture, shear, etc....

Hi-locks - get rid of the swaged on permanent HUCK collar you have to break off use the HEX hi-lock type so you can get them off with a wrench and rachet used all over aircraft like the Airbus A350. You need this HUGE HUCK air gun most don't have in garage to put the DS bolt back in, it's retarded! Don't like em in Aircraft either.

[ratsracung6]

Well I dont know if your suposed to weld or not I did and we will see how it holds up, so far 1 practice on it and all good. He will be racing an AX in Waco tonite and see how that goes.

Yes I thought about the stress it may put on other areas of the frame but I will cross that bridge when it comes,I already have some ideals.

TNT I did not buy the frame section it was a gift from someone.
We broke 1 stock one and replaced it with the gifted one then it broke. When I tore it apart to try and fix it I noticed the other side was cracked to. They can give me my money back if they want to though HaHA!

Are yall coming to the first TQRA race at N-40?

[TNT]

Rats I just wanted to make people aware of some of the potential issues with welding this frame nothing against what you did which may be fine for a season or two...just didn't want this to be a means to an end since it not, I think BRP needs to own up asap.

My flight out of Charleston to Tulsa/AX just got cancelled due to the weather so did the race, what a mess! So I'll see if I can rebook it to Texas TQRA RD 1, 2/20, lets get together and look at this I got no quad here to see Trev has in Wichita.

Tell your boy I wish him good luck tonight put that Can up front for us...stay warm and out of ice!

Terry :D

[ratsracung6]

Thanks Terry.


Oh there will more than likely be a CAN-AM up front Cody Miller is going to be there.