4:1 Wheels vs. Stock Wheels?

[NacsMXer]

Hey guys, already searched extensively on this, but would like some first hand input please.

Those of you that went from a stock offset 10x5.5 front wheel, to an aftermarket 10x5 4:1 offset wheel....how much narrower overall did the 4:1 rims make the front end?

And how much worse are 3:2 rims vs. stock in handling?

Thanks!

[NacsMXer]

Well I thought the stock offset was like 4:1.5 since it's a 5.5 inch wheel. And i've also heard that going from stock to 4:1 wheels makes you loose a 1/2 inch on each side over stock rims, for a total loss of 1 inch. I was asking to see if it really is a total of 1 inch loss over stock in the "real world" or if it is just 1 inch on paper for those that have done it.

Right now i've been going crazy trying to decide if I should get 3:2 rims or 4:1 rims. I really wish I could get stock offset wheels (I want to get Hipers), which I think is a perfect middle ground. But it seems that my only options are to go 1 inch wider overall with 3:2 rims (slightly worse handling over stock/more bar feedback) or to go 1 inch less overall with 4:1 rims (best handling possible/least bar feedback).

Right now I like the width of my front end with stock wheels and its current ride height. I just measured it and it's 49.5 inches wide with +3 arms. So going to narrower 4:1 rims would put me at 48.5 inches, which is ok, but if I wanted wider I would have to lower the ride height (don't really want to).

I'm leaning towards the 4:1 wheels since they handle best, but I would have to live with the narrower 48.5 width.

Are the 3:2 wheels really THAT much worse over stock? I don't race so staying under 50 inches isn't an issue.

[wrekd]

You have a steering stabalizer so if you want the 3+2's for the width, I'd say go for it.

[honda400ex2003]

I suppose that the stockers could be closer to 4 1.5 i have never actually measured them. I would say that any rim would be ok. I think mine are 2:3 on my quadroks but i am not sure exactly. they seem to be ok for general riding. steve

[NacsMXer]

I did some more digging and found some actual measurements.

Stock wheels:

10x5.5" wheel
3 3/4 + 1 3/4 offset



Hipers(marketed as a 4+1):

10x5" wheel
3 5/8 + 1 3/8" offset

It looks like the 4+1 rims are pretty close to stock, with a small loss in width. If I don't loose a full inch in front end width that would be perfect. A half inch I could live with. I don't really want to go narrower, but if it will handle better I guess i'm gonna go with the 4+1's.

[honda400ex2003]

sounds like a good plan to get the hipers then. you could def get some +3 arms one day and it would be really nice. steve

[Honda#4]

When I measured my quad with the baja wheels I had it was around 52" the wheels were 3+2 offset, but then I switched to 4+1 shamrocks and it took the width to 49" and thats were i'm at right now.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by Honda#4
When I measured my quad with the baja wheels I had it was around 52" the wheels were 3+2 offset, but then I switched to 4+1 shamrocks and it took the width to 49" and thats were i'm at right now.

honda400ex2003, already got me some +3's :blah: But thanks for your input.

Honda#4, thanks for your reply man. Since you and I have the same front ends, that helps a lot.

49 inches I can deal with, I just don't want to have to slam the ride height to get there ya know? I like having more shock travel.

My one concern about the 4+1's was the clearance of the nut on top of the upper heim joints and the wheel. With the stock front rims right now, I measured from the nut to the rim and I have about a 1/2 inch of clearance....maybe a millimeter more lol. Not much to play with, and I know the 4+1's are gonna be CLOSE to that nut, but how close are they on your shamrocks? Got any pics that show the clearance?

Thanks a lot! :cool:

[honda400ex2003]

i struck out on this one. lol. i didnt see +3 in the sig lol. i knew dallas had some 3's and 4:1 rims, that is where i was basing my info on with the 4:1 being pretty good. that lobo front end is pretty nice, that would be my setup if i could find a set with some quad rate elkas for a good price. lol. I would also like to find a set of +2's and keep my rims i have now for a decent width increase. steve

[400exrider707]

Hipers are not true 4:1's no, but the aluminum rims are. Douglas rolled lip 4:1 are 4:1.

3:2 is VERY close to stock, and considered an OEM replacement. If you put the 3:2's on you wont notice any difference. Just dont go 2:3.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by 400exrider707
Hipers are not true 4:1's no, but the aluminum rims are. Douglas rolled lip 4:1 are 4:1.

3:2 is VERY close to stock, and considered an OEM replacement. If you put the 3:2's on you wont notice any difference. Just dont go 2:3.

I've heard the opposite, that 4:1 is closer to stock than 3:2 aftermarkets. And you are correct that the Hiper 4:1's are not "true" 4:1's. I just got done reading a post by a guy who went from stock 450R fronts to 4:1 Hipers, and the width was changed very little. On the contrary, i've read left and right, and seen in pictures, that 3:2 rims will add an inch overall of width over stock rims. I know stock rims are definitely between 3:2's and 4:1's, but it seems like they are a tad closer to the 4:1's than 3:2's. And i'm sure that you would agree that the better overall handling option would be to go slightly narrower of an offset over stock vs. slightly wider.

[Honda#4]

With the 4+1's there is a slight space between the heim and the wheel so you'll be fine.

Here's my pic for reference.

[NacsMXer]

Thanks a lot for the pic, that helps me out a ton :cool:

It doesn't look as narrow as I thought it would be. Just a tad skinnier over the stock rims. Looks like my thoughts were right, the stock rims are closer to 4:1 width. Your quad looked way wider when it had the 3:2 rims on it. I'm definitely going 4:1 now! Just for kicks, did you notice a difference going from 3:2 to 4:1?

Here's a pic of my front end with stock rims for comparison
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3686/dsc00004or.jpg (http://img696.imageshack.us/i/dsc00004or.jpg/)

[Honda#4]

Yea a big difference in turning and stability, with the 3:2 it always felt abit on the twitchy side and a bit unstable partly because of the HD's I was running they have such a stiff side wall so I blame them for those reasons. With the 4:1 and mx's the corning was alot better and more precise and the switching was gone, the tire size made it handle so much better to a point where it had no feedback coming through the bars. I ride faster and more aggressive than I did with the 3:2 thats for sure.


Sorry for the long reply:D

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by Honda#4
Yea a big difference in turning and stability, with the 3:2 it always felt abit on the twitchy side and a bit unstable partly because of the HD's I was running they have such a stiff side wall so I blame them for those reasons. With the 4:1 and mx's the corning was alot better and more precise and the switching was gone, the tire size made it handle so much better to a point where it had no feedback coming through the bars. I ride faster and more aggressive than I did with the 3:2 thats for sure.


Sorry for the long reply:D

Nah, no need to be sorry, I appreciate the detail. Sounds like the ultimate handling option with the 4:1's, and i'll have a stabilizer on top of it to boot! Can't beat someone's first-hand experience over just mere speculation. Thanks again bro :macho

[Honda#4]

I wish I had a stabilizer just to see how much more it helps out but money doesnt permit me to buy one.

With a stabilizer your front end would be flawless with the 4:1.

[trx400Rider]

What rear wheel would make my 400ex a little wider? Would a 9x8 3:5 wheel make my rear end a little wider? I'd like to run 20x11x9 Maxxis razrs on them.

[NacsMXer]

I got my new 4+1 Hipers and test fit them. No fitment issues, but here's the kicker...they are 1/4" wider per side over stock!

I thought it was going to be the exact opposite so I contacted Hiper to make sure I didn't get 3+2 rims. They verified that I had the correct 4+1 rims.

Here's what I found out for those that may be interested. Hiper offered for me to send them the wheels and have them bolt in their old style billet center hub sections (would bring the wheel in an extra 1/2" from the new style wheel). So apparently the new style 4+1 Hipers have a thicker billet center hub which spaces them further out.

I can live with the extra 1/4" per side over stock....close enough. That will take me from 49.5" to an even 50" in the front now. Just glad I didn't go with the 3+2's, or it would be a whole lot wider over stock!

[Honda#4]

Yea but it would be crazy stable with 3:2, I wish i had rear spacers or hubs back in the day cuz it sure was fun taking sharp corners.

[400exrider707]

Originally posted by NacsMXer
I got my new 4+1 Hipers and test fit them. No fitment issues, but here's the kicker...they are 1/4" wider per side over stock!

I thought it was going to be the exact opposite so I contacted Hiper to make sure I didn't get 3+2 rims. They verified that I had the correct 4+1 rims.

Here's what I found out for those that may be interested. Hiper offered for me to send them the wheels and have them bolt in their old style billet center hub sections (would bring the wheel in an extra 1/2" from the new style wheel). So apparently the new style 4+1 Hipers have a thicker billet center hub which spaces them further out.

I can live with the extra 1/4" per side over stock....close enough. That will take me from 49.5" to an even 50" in the front now. Just glad I didn't go with the 3+2's, or it would be a whole lot wider over stock!

Thanks for the info and the update. That's very interesting. I wonder why they went to a thicker billet center section... never really heard of those failing...

Did you get your 50" width measurement with you on the bike? It will make it wider if there wasn't a rider on it. Also what degree of camber are you running?

[NacsMXer]

Yeah not sure why they changed it but like you said, it looks like the aluminum rims are the only true 4+1's you can get. Everything else is wider than stock at this point.

I got my 49.5" measurement with nobody on the quad, nobody else was around to "sub in" for me on that lol. I'm aware it will make it a little wider with me on it but it's not a big issue since I don't race. On the camber, not sure on the exact degrees. I just know that I have the upper heims about 1/2 turn out from fully seated on the Roll arms (most people run them fully seated).




Here's some pics of the stock and Hiper 4+1's. Stock I had about 5/8" of clearance between the rim and the nut on the upper heim joint. With the Hipers, it's now at about 7/8".
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5428/dsc0151n.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/dsc0151n.jpg/)
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/8058/dsc0149g.jpg (http://img36.imageshack.us/i/dsc0149g.jpg/)

Here you can see there is a tiny nub of the brake caliper sticking out with the Hipers (about 1/4") where it used to be flush with the stock rims.
http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/597/dsc0153k.jpg (http://img192.imageshack.us/i/dsc0153k.jpg/)
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9739/dsc0152ks.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/dsc0152ks.jpg/)

[MtnEX]

Ah dang... talk about back from the dead... well here it is.

I went through this with my Kawasaki and thought it was the one with weird wheels... I finally figured out with it that the wheels are 5.5" and the offset was 4+1.5.

These offsets are measured from the back of the wheel center that mates the hub to the INSIDE of the bead. So on the outside they measure wider. On my KFX I purchased 3+2 Hiper Tech 3's. I gained 1" overall width and 2" to the center of the tread. In relation to the ball joint the inner lip of the rim sits out an inch.

Really what I noticed on it was a little better turning and a little better stability. It was a lot like going +2 on stability for only a 1" width penalty. But I think I may have had a different opinion if I had came from 4+1. I might have noticed a feedback increase and a decrease in turning?

Anyways I find myself frustrated here again thinking the stock Honda wheels were 3+2. Sounds like they are not.

I have looked at my 3+2 hipers vs 4+1 hipers. The 4+1 has an inner half that comes in to the ball joint as pictured above. On the outside though it is basically a flat wheel with a beadlock ring. There is a little dish and a billet center to both, but they don't seem that much different. Looks almost as if the center is thinner is about it.

I really need to get a 10" straight edge and take to both... and also some CF1 fronts.

Anyways, I am ticked off and confused now. My stock quad sits static at about 44" and I had in mind to get +2 arms... 44 > 48" and then I could do 4+1 Hipers and drop it back in to 46" if I wanted.

But from this thread it sounds like the stock wheels are closer 4+1 so 3+2 will take me from 44" to 46" and then +2 arms is 50" and I have to get 4+1 to get back down to 48"....

[MoparManiac117]

I'm curious about this too MtnEX. I'm looking to break into XC racing this year and will be getting some new front wheels and tires. I'd like to add a little width to help with stability but not so wide that it hurts me shooting in between trees. I've got stock arms right now, might go to +1 if I can afford it. I'd like to be no wider than 48". So sounds like with what I'm reading here, I could use the 3:2 wheels and +1 arms and be right at 48". Have you measured the stock wheels to see what offset they are? I'll see if I can measure my stock ones in the next few days. Let me know what you figure out.

[MtnEX]

I am going to measure. I just didn't get to the front yesterday.

What I am going to do is a couple of things, which matter.

One is I am going to measure from the mounting surface inside the wheel out to a straight edge across the rim bead.
I will also do the same with a longer straight edge across the face of the tire and name the tire and size.

This way you know exactly how much rim width is being gained out from the hub and also secondary the tire bubble.

I also have some empty front rims where I can show you guys how they measure offset and why it's not that helpful to us.
My only downfall is that unless EX stock rims are really 4+1 I don't have those to get the above measurements that matter to us.

I did the rear yesterday as I have the axle literally out of the quad. So I did several tire/wheel combos and got accurate measurements of that as well as accurate overall width measurements, which are hard to get on the front as it varies depending on where the front is at in the travel.... how it sits static with no rider, bla bla... Anyways, looks to me like it sits about 44" wide in the front with stock wheels and Holeshot XC tires. And of course it gets wider as it goes down through the travel. You would have to remove both front shocks and lift the tires up until the arms were straight out from the frame to see how much wider though. But sitting static it "looks" like it needs +1 arms just to get out to the stock rear width. But it may be about the same width front and rear with stock arms with a rider on board?