another chain mod thread

[thequadfather+2]

just trying something new. My ZTR frame saver had taken a beating over the summer and last couple of months, never broke but did bend just a little. The chain had finally worn two huge grooves in the roller. I decided to try something a little different, I am not saying this is new because I am sure someone has tried this before but I couldnt find any information about doing it this way.

We just made a mount similar to the right rear motor mount and placed it on the back side of the frame, raised it so the chain contacted it just before hitting the frame and welded it.

After testing it at home it seems ok, several jumps and no frame contact. It is strong and mounted to the frame away from the rear motor mount.

Actually this is before I cleaned it up, this isnt the bolt we used either.

[thequadfather+2]

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[thequadfather+2]

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[thequadfather+2]

looks good from here, the wheel spins fine, works good so far.

[THARNESS]

Looks like it would work great. Not sure if it would be atva legal since it is welded on. Need to make it a "gussett" that the roller bolts onto.

[thequadfather+2]

wouldnt it be considered a safety mod. It serves the same purpose as a gusset, preventing frame damage that would otherwise result in frame failure. Thats all a gussett does and it's welded to the frame. Maybe we can just call it a gussett... :D

[Logan #34's Dad]

Please send your photos to the AMA-ATV and get a WRITTEN ruling on this. I did this once before with a piece of flat stock and a replacement roller from a dirtbike chain guide. Worked perfectly! I never ran a National with it nor were we up front so no one cared.
As we all know, if your up front then the haters come out.
I believe it fits the definition of a gusset as you stated.
Let us know please.

[Logan #34's Dad]

If someone would just come up with a rear engine lowering kit. All the problems would be solved.

[ewathen]

Quadfather, What ended up being your engine trouble? was electrical or carb related?

Eric

[Hetrick Racing]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
If someone would just come up with a rear engine lowering kit. All the problems would be solved.

Working on it

[thequadfather+2]

"Quadfather, What ended up being your engine trouble? was electrical or carb related?"


Thanks for asking Eric,

I know this sounds crazy but I swapped the stock intake for the Haggerty with new reeds and it ran like a champ. I assume it was an air leak or reed problem since I havent had the problem since. Thanks for the help, it was driving me crazy.....

[zach R 7x]

Originally posted by Logan #34's Dad
If someone would just come up with a rear engine lowering kit. All the problems would be solved.

not sure but i thought i saw on this sight a while back that Brad Loomis had made something like this?

[Logan #34's Dad]

Originally posted by zach R 7x
not sure but i thought i saw on this sight a while back that Brad Loomis had made something like this?

Right, I spoke to Brad about that. His lowered it and moved it over a little. I really don't wanna mess with chain alignment. It would not be real hard. Weve all seen the billet case saver bracket that replaces the bolt on motor mount on the chain side. Make the same thing but with a longer arm then a bolt on piece for the other side. JMO

[thequadfather+2]

I am curious how it will work. The front hangers will have to be shortened because if the rear is dropped my PCS pipe will not fit. It barely clears the frame under the bottom anyway. If they make a kit that works count me in, I'll buy...:)

[XXX -rider]

it is just SAD to have to worry about someone protesting another for something like this ..
..IMO it would prove that guy is a POS & suffering from the typical mini dad syndrome

[thequadfather+2]

Hey Rocky, what do you use on your quad?

The ZTR was great for a while. It began to take a pounding when we started airing it out more. The rear Elka does need to be stiffened just a touch due to the evidence of bottoming out on the rubber stopper at the bottom and that may have played a role in the condition of the frame saver.

I just decided to try something a little stronger.

[Logan #34's Dad]

I use the ZTR frame saver as well. I've broken a couple bolts off and the roller is currently worn out.
The piece of flat stock with the red roller was the best but I was affraid someone would protest it.
I believe you can weld on the frame as long as the geometry is not changed. I don't know for sure though.

[hotquads1]

Originally posted by thequadfather+2
I am curious how it will work. The front hangers will have to be shortened because if the rear is dropped my PCS pipe will not fit. It barely clears the frame under the bottom anyway. If they make a kit that works count me in, I'll buy...:) .
.
easy fix, the MACH-1 front engine mounts raise the engine about 1/2" creating plenty of room for exhaust.
Marc

I know Hetrick Racing sells the best set up under chassis.

[jvlavl]

i have to disagree with you Cheeseman. IMO..your frame saver product that you are refering to on hetrick's website in not as hardened as you say it is. mostly my fault, but i ended up rounding of the 8mm hex head bolt with my SK 12 point 8mm socket with moderate thread resistance. i would have used a 6 point if i new the bolt was going to round off that easy. I ended up having to cut a notch in it and using a large flathead screwdriver to remove and install. Not really the clean install i was going for.

I am not bashing your product and i do appreciate the R&D that goes into producing a band-aid for a very poorly engineered machine.

i just am having a hard time with the re-engineering a new machine concept. one would think that the chain on a new bike wouldnt hit the frame in the first place????? on my own big jap bikes, i just replace the broken parts and leave the engineering to the smart guys. i now realize that doesnt hold true in other asian countrys. i cant wait for the day i can sell my sons brand new taiwan DRR and he is big enough for a jap bike. this bike has been a pain in my *** from day 1 !

Ok now "HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU POSSIBLY STRIP OUT THE HEAD"??????????????? Oh I know wrong size wrench. Send the piece YOU messed up and Ill send you a new one. Any ways its 5/16 These are lil quads that not everybody messes with. And use the right wrench next time also. And yes it is hard. Your the kind of person who could tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer and I dont even know you LOL!!!!

. Dont hurcules it. Just tighten enough and then use your lock nut.

Please call it the right name I dont want it mistaken for some other kind.

[ZTR_MAN]

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
Ok now "HOW IN THE WORLD COULD YOU POSSIBLY STRIP OUT THE HEAD"??????????????? Oh I know wrong size wrench. Send the piece YOU messed up and Ill send you a new one. Any ways its 5/16 These are lil quads that not everybody messes with. And use the right wrench next time also. And yes it is hard. Your the kind of person who could tear up an anvil with a rubber hammer and I dont even know you LOL!!!!

. Dont hurcules it. Just tighten enough and then use your lock nut.

Please call it the right name I dont want it mistaken for some other kind.

LOL!!! Customer service at it's best. :D

[jvlavl]

what was i thinking?? A 5/16 " Bolt head on a Tawain machine with nothing but metric hardware??? you seem pretty proud of your "original" design.

ISeriously t is what it is. IMO.. looks to me like the other Co. did the hard part with the Chain tensioer and the frame roller and your are just trying to improve on the design. Im ok with that. But your comment in reguards to my "frame Saver" reference, IMO.. just makes you look defensive/guilty of producing A "knock off".

Really, if you think about it- the "Other" frame roller product may not be the problem when it rips away or bends on the frame?? Did you ever stop and think about the Absolute Junk soft steel these Machines are made of?

Whats with the arrogant attitude on this and most of your post?? i dont know you and your prob a great guy in person , but from most of your post in here i dont think im a fan? Not that you care.

Yes I will replace it wether its my fault or not. My post was sarcasm Jvlavl. But NO OTHER person will replace if something happens.. I hope you didnt take my post the wrong way. Other people on here are just jealous and hope something goes wrong. I will be sending you another one. Thanks for the input. Merry Christmas and hope all will get better with your Drr.

Originally posted by jvlavl
what was i thinking?? A 5/16 " Bolt head on a Tawain machine with nothing but metric hardware??? you seem pretty proud of your "original" design.

ISeriously t is what it is. IMO.. looks to me like the other Co. did the hard part with the Chain tensioer and the frame roller and your are just trying to improve on the design. Im ok with that. But your comment in reguards to my "frame Saver" reference, IMO.. just makes you look defensive/guilty of producing A "knock off".

Really, if you think about it- the "Other" frame roller product may not be the problem when it rips away or bends on the frame?? Did you ever stop and think about the Absolute Junk soft steel these Machines are made of?

Whats with the arrogant attitude on this and most of your post?? i dont know you and your prob a great guy in person , but from most of your post in here i dont think im a fan? Not that you care.


Im sorry I thought you said the part was soft?? Is it soft or hard enough to break the mounts off Im confused.

[jvlavl]

sorry for the confusion? i thought my description was pretty clear, cc part soft enough for me to round it off PRIOR to seating with a 8mm socket(wrong size,i know), soft chinese-ish steel, not sure about other frame rollers-never tried them and that your a sarcastic *******. does that clear it up for you?

i again dissagree, sorry. i have no prior relation with you or any of your competitors. I have to tell you that i needed a couple of chain rollers for the ztr tesioner and the guy was very cool on the phone and sent me three rollers @ no charge what so ever.

I can appreciate "spirited " compitition. But you seem to take it to far, jump to conclusions, comment without thinking, then regret it..

no thanks on the replacement...Good luck

[ZTR_MAN]

Originally posted by tgcheeseman
Im sorry I thought you said the part was soft?? Is it soft or hard enough to break the mounts off Im confused.

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c236/sionnsar/Emoticons/smiley_watch.gif http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u16/Lilyboo2007/Smileys/popcorm1.gif

[jvlavl]

dont you hate it when you burn the f-in popcorn and its just no fun to eat. it stinks up the house and the smell just hangs around forever. :rolleyes:

Sorry you wont take a replacement. That one is the first of many to have this happen. I cant make you take one. I hope you have a very Merry Christmas. :D :D :D

[raidernut]

pass the popcorn please

[dazed&confused]

can you say "KARMA" i think Toby's getting a big taste of it right now!!!! LMAO!!! (':devil:')

[bignasty]

Gotta put my two cents in....we broke ANOTHER ZTR this weekend on the first moto. I like what quadfather had mocked up willing to try that fix.. Right now ordered two from toby to try his design...if it can withstand 45 min motos I'll be posting further info on here later on....more to come....ps USE THE RIGHT TOOLS GUYS...:D :D :D

[Logan #34's Dad]

That's one thing about James at ZTR, he will make it right. When he first came out with his design it to had a standard hex head, we suggested he make it metric and he instantly did.
Also, Logan broke a couple of the ZTR and James instantly replaced it. I believe the newest version is a more hardened version.
I will send an e-mail to Stephani at the AMA-ATV and ask her about the weld on "roller". That way is a better way for sure except we don't know if it is legal. --- Thats why James came up with the "bolt-on" type.

[thequadfather+2]

Merry Christmas to yall....

We tested it this weekend in an arena cross event. We ran 4 motos (2 practice, 1 qualifier, 1 main) and it held up well. Besides the back yard test, thats all we have done.

I have a brass roller for it incase the original one begins to wear but so far no grooves at all. I also made a couple different sizes (roller diameter) but we have only used the one from the picture.

With the bolt going through both sides it will be less likely to break or bend. It's easy to change the roller, just slide the bolt out and on goes the new roller.

Again, just one idea.... :)

[quadrider79]

First Question, James at ZTR, How is your son doing? It's been awhile so I'm guessing that he is doing great and all healed up.
I hope so.

Second, Can I get replacement rollers for the Frame saver or do I have to buy a new complete one?

Thanks.

[Coley'sdad#8]

:bandit: Do I hear crickets and Banjo music???

[Hetrick Racing]

Like I said before about 1 year is all you get from any product.
The saver Toby made is good,I like it, I have not seen the new product from James but I am sure it is quality as well.
Competition is what we all want it keeps up out front and working harder.

[marsrace2]

Originally posted by thequadfather+2
Merry Christmas to yall....

We tested it this weekend in an arena cross event. We ran 4 motos (2 practice, 1 qualifier, 1 main) and it held up well. Besides the back yard test, thats all we have done.

I have a brass roller for it incase the original one begins to wear but so far no grooves at all. I also made a couple different sizes (roller diameter) but we have only used the one from the picture.

With the bolt going through both sides it will be less likely to break or bend. It's easy to change the roller, just slide the bolt out and on goes the new roller.

Again, just one idea.... :)

it looks good, you should make a few and sell them.

[thequadfather+2]

"it looks good, you should make a few and sell them."


Not me....I would like to see the vendors do it, maybe if Rocky can get it blessed.

Maybe ZTR, Hot Quads, G Force or Hetrick can manufacture one and the frame/chain issue will be done.

If they make one I still need one more for the 70.... :D

[srxmiller]

I'll take one, who wants the p.o.

[skyeryder]

Originally posted by srxmiller
I'll take one, who wants the p.o.

x2

[1lapdown]

I will need one too.

If the vendors start making this, I want one. Unless Quadfather wants to make me one. It is simple and seems tough and I am all about that kind of stuff.

We race mostly local tracks so we dont really care about the ATVA. I dont even understand what they could possibly have a problem with.:confused:

everyone have a great Christmas

[Logan #34's Dad]

Quadfather, did you get my pm AND send in the photos?

[thequadfather+2]

yes I got it. The pics are on the way.

Sorry, 1lapdown, I work 2 jobs and dont really have the time, I just enjoy helping out....

I just take a few pictures and talk a big game...LOL

The Haggerty intake was a fine example, after I posted the details about my install problems others posted some good ideas which I actually used later on my project. Now if someone (average joe) looks over that thread it should help when they do their install. Likewise, maybe this will end up helping some folks looking for another idea.

When all else fails I have Marc Smith on speed dial.... :D

[Logan #34's Dad]

IF this gets okayed I can have my local machine shop punch some of these out and I'll sell them. You can get a roller on eBay for very little. So all I'd should need to do it get the metal part made and tell ppl where to get a roller. Sounds easy enough. Lol

[jvlavl]

if anyone out there has any input or has tried to avoid the roller issue and lower the engine i would be all ears. I began my chain mod approach and am going to lower the rear engine at the mounts just under 1". I cut the original mounts of with a plasma cutter and am fabbing longer mounts up. This seems to be enough to keep the chain of the frame under a engine load and full susp compression. The front mounts will have to be massaged to compensate for the new engine placement. but not much. I think i have thought it through and it seems like it will work?


Pros: Chain wont saw frame in half
no more roller mods
no bent chains
more time for other broken stuff!

Cons: Having to take a plasma cutter to my kids new quad
?????

[jerkyboy]

With lowering the rear of the motor that much I would have to
modify the pipe also.

[Logan #34's Dad]

For those of us that race, we cannot cut and move the mounts and still be legal. Well, we could do it UNTIL you win and get protested. I was thinking that something like the front shock lowering kits for big quads would be something like we need to make it work.

[thequadfather+2]

I think taking 5 minutes to weld the roller bracket on is the way for me. I can replace the roller once a year and should be problem free. It's not the fix for everyone and may not be the next big thing but it doesnt get much easier than this.....After testing it at our back yard practice facility (joke) and looking at the results after the first race it performed perfectly.

As said earlier, it is simple and strong.

Marc at Hot Quads mentioned that his front hangers raise the motor about an inch, if you lower the rear you better raise the front to make the pipe work, I use a PCS and mine is already tight.

Good luck, everyone has to do whats best for them.

[BradLoomis]

I lowered and moved the rear motor mounts backwards and to the right side. This stops the chain grinding, slack/tight/slack chain issue and balances out the offset side to side weight of the quad. I have ran this setup for over 5 years, and have never had an issue. ATVA legal as it is a bolt in kit, was protested and passed with flying colors.

Rear mounts
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc52/X-Stream_Composites/Loomis%20Racing/005-1.jpg
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc52/X-Stream_Composites/Loomis%20Racing/007.jpg

Lower engine mount
http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc52/X-Stream_Composites/Loomis%20Racing/016.jpg


More photos for anyone interested
http://s216.photobucket.com/albums/cc52/X-Stream_Composites/

[Logan #34's Dad]

Okay Brad, So how hard would it be for you make up sets of these to sell? Also, what does this engine relocation kit do to the rear axel set up. Do you have to adjust the spacing at the rear axel for the chain to line up?

[BradLoomis]

Dave Carter is working on a kit right now that will be fully adjustable in front height and will be just a lowering kit in the rear, for use with a the stock swingarm. For those that want to side balance out the quad, an offset kit will also be offered with either a new bolt in swingarm or a modification to the stock one.

If you want to build your own, PM me and I have a few of the brackets already built.

[Logan #34's Dad]

Well, The ATVA got back to me about the roller idea to stop the frame from getting eaten by the chain. I sent them the pics from this thread and from a roller I made on a previous quad that was a piece of flat steel welded to the frame with a roller attached.

According to Kip Bigelow of the atva:
" The issue I have with the roller is it helps the chain performance and I would think however so small it could be viewed as performance enhancing (and illegal). Adding gussets to strengthen the frame is legal."

So there we go. I don't agree but a rule is a rule.

[thequadfather+2]

I wonder if someone else had a problem with it and emailed them, oh well......no big deal.

I dissagree with it improving chain performance. It doesnt help the chain in any fashion, it helps the frame....Heck I wouldnt care if the chain hit the frame if it didnt damage the frame and most people would agree with that. In my opinion it's still a frame issue, not a chain issue. I just dont want the frame damaged.

I will find a way to bolt that on, since the problem lies with the welding.:devil:

[marsrace2]

we race flat Track and TT and with a lowered Quad we had alot of problems with the Chain rubbing the frame. What we did is put a longer bolt in the right rear motor with a moose ball bearing Chain roller, they cost about 15 bucks and they hold up well.

[bignasty]

we finally made it out to try toby's design and they held up two forty minute motos and a thirty minute motos...no bends or breaks...hopefully it will be another option for people to try. thumbs up in my book:) :) ;) ;) :) :)