post your broken frame, heres mine

[florentino]

any one else have the same problem.

[florentino]

herers one more crack at the bottom skid plate ..

[florentino]

so i now need a frame, any one have one for sale at a good prize. i have $350 to spend, i hope some one will gime me a deal.
so theres your pics dont lie. this frame never felt good since new, and my dealer sucks they dont care, yea one sales guy said you can replace whats broken. yea lol they will charge me more then 1200 and take months to do it no thanks, i fond a frame on ebay for 400 but it was bolted together on some areas.

[TNT]

In that first pic is that frame cracked at the hi-loc?

[Seed]

What did you hit or do? Also was the damage done by your own mistake? You should call BRP themselves and talk to them. Their customer service from what I've heard is remarkable.

[nbm]

Originally posted by Seed
What did you hit or do? Also was the damage done by your own mistake? You should call BRP themselves and talk to them. Their customer service from what I've heard is remarkable.

that's funny, As I stated in other threads I tried to call customer service several times with no answer and no way to leave a message. Also, why would they cover a frame when they won't cover a known issue like a cracked engine case?

[blaster99]

They do cover cracked cases... If your dealership functioned properly... they would get it done for you.

[florentino]

Originally posted by Seed
What did you hit or do? Also was the damage done by your own mistake? You should call BRP themselves and talk to them. Their customer service from what I've heard is remarkable.

heres the funny thing i first notice the crack on the bottom no big deal, then a week later i was changing my stem bar, removed the radiator and thats how i saw that crack on top by the shock mount,

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
heres the funny thing i first notice the crack on the bottom no big deal, then a week later i was changing my stem bar, removed the radiator and thats how i saw that crack on top by the shock mount,

Is there a single bolt where the frame cracked or two, I can't see the pic is not showing it all?????

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
Is there a single bolt where the frame cracked or two, I can't see the pic is not showing it all?????

lol tnt you need glasses i blind man can see this .. ok is at the lower bolt .. the alumimum bar rip apart, some one that races for motoworks told me this is the week area..

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
lol tnt you need glasses i blind man can see this .. ok is at the lower bolt .. the alumimum bar rip apart, some one that races for motoworks told me this is the week area..

I'm 50 give me a break I'm old...lol!:D I want to make sure before my next post and suggestion to BRP.

[florentino]

Originally posted by florentino
lol tnt you need glasses i blind man can see this .. ok is at the lower bolt .. the alumimum bar rip apart, some one that races for motoworks told me this is the week area..

[TNT]

BRP Engineer’s – Or whoever views this forum, sales people get this back to your engineer’s as a word of friendly advice incase they don’t know. If they know I would not expect to see these problems on the 2010 frame.

Seems obvious to me after seeing several frames cracking in several areas of hi-loks, your inital 2008 loads model needs updating if this has not been done recently. Now after a couple of years of testing, from what I have seen there are areas where the extruded cross-section material is inadequate to take large hi-loc bearing, bending, and shear. You should find hi-stresses in these areas and not be able to show the cross-sections good, or again, your nastran models have the wrong loads. Some of the hi-locs look like ¼ to 5/16 going through thin wall extrusions with not enough cross-sectional area. Two smaller 5/32 hi-loks or huck bolts would be better to distribute the load, maybe 3 if possible. They still need to meet the 2d min edge margin and 4-6d spacing requirements, so for your ¼-5/16 thats .5 to .625 to an edge, 1 or more inch apart, which is not the case. If you do not obey these rules we will see inter-fastener buckling and failure at the hi-lock hole as shown above.

Problem with extrusions is it's difficult to change thickness at hi-loc locations without costly machining, thats why for some structure they may not work. To leave welding or fasteneing doublers or gussets to the aftermarket industry is a sin on this quad imo since the pyrimid and rectangular extrusions used are the best for high strenght-to-weight robust design in the industry, if designed right that lends itself to the loads, best mass properties as designed CG limits from the OEM. Besides, without the proper loads model the after market industry can only guess the effects on other areas of the frame.

All and all after looking at the YFZr and Kawi, this is still the best light weight AL design out there, but there are some weak areas like all frames have to be worked out. I think the initial Al design was outstanding considering this frame was the first to develop the technology this far in today's day and age.

Boeing just flew the first ever all plastic-composite fuselage yesterday with NO aluminum skins, thats right and who would of ever thought that possible, super light and fuel efficent, as BRP did with this Al frame in 08, problems are to be expected. Now we just need someone to take the risk on composites, it coming! :D

Hope that helps :D

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
BRP Engineer’s – Or whoever views this forum, sales people get this back to your engineer’s as a word of friendly advice incase they don’t know. If they know I would not expect to see these problems on the 2010 frame.

Seems obvious to me after seeing several frames cracking in several areas of hi-loks, your inital 2008 loads model needs updating if this has not been done recently. Now after a couple of years of testing, from what I have seen there are areas where the extruded cross-section material is inadequate to take large hi-loc bearing, bending, and shear. You should find hi-stresses in these areas and not be able to show the cross-sections good, or again, your nastran models have the wrong loads. Some of the hi-locs look like ¼ to 5/16 going through thin wall extrusions with not enough cross-sectional area. Two smaller 5/32 hi-loks or huck bolts would be better to distribute the load, maybe 3 if possible. They still need to meet the 2d min edge margin and 4-6d spacing requirements, so for your ¼-5/16 thats .5 to .625 to an edge, 1 or more inch apart, which is not the case. If you do not obey these rules we will see inter-fastener buckling and failure at the hi-lock hole as shown above.

Problem with extrusions is it's difficult to change thickness at hi-loc locations without costly machining, thats why for some structure they may not work. To leave welding or fasteneing doublers or gussets to the aftermarket industry is a sin on this quad imo since the pyrimid and rectangular extrusions used are the best for high strenght-to-weight robust design in the industry, if designed right that lends itself to the loads, best mass properties as designed CG limits from the OEM. Besides, without the proper loads model the after market industry can only guess the effects on other areas of the frame.

All and all after looking at the YFZr and Kawi, this is still the best light weight AL design out there, but there are some weak areas like all frames have to be worked out. I think the initial Al design was outstanding considering this frame was the first to develop the technology this far in today's day and age.

Boeing just flew the first ever all plastic-composite fuselage yesterday with NO aluminum skins, thats right and who would of ever thought that possible, super light and fuel efficent, as BRP did with this Al frame in 08, problems are to be expected. Now we just need someone to take the risk on composites, it coming! :D

Hope that helps :D
thanks alot tnt ..they should it make it more solid look at the ltr that thing is a tank, but is winnig, also heres one more thing , there s no way a ds frame will last 5 years of regular racing, yet theres so many 250r frames with out a scrach.
my yamaha and honda is something that i never had to worry about , also once a change frames its going to be a pain . i dont need no dealers i can do it my self.

[Blizzard24]

250r frames cracked all the time, 450r frames are a joke. KTM has had frame issues and even the YFZ has some weak areas. No frame is bullet proof (Except maybe Cannondale).

I am sure this frame needs some strengthening in some areas and if someone were to strip one down and get it to someone like BCS or Walsh Racing, I am sure gussetts could be designed and tig'd in.

Florentino, take the frame to a fab shop and see what they can come up with, it may save you hundreds of dollars and help out the DS450 community.
Judging by the looks of that break, it looks as though you could knock out the Hy-loc and tig in a thicker plate. And from what I have heard, the correct grade 8 stainless bolts will keep this frame together better than the Hy-locs.

[Blizzard24]

Or better yet, go to Fastenal and see about Ti bolts, light weight and super strong.

[florentino]

Originally posted by Blizzard24
250r frames cracked all the time, 450r frames are a joke. KTM has had frame issues and even the YFZ has some weak areas. No frame is bullet proof (Except maybe Cannondale).

I am sure this frame needs some strengthening in some areas and if someone were to strip one down and get it to someone like BCS or Walsh Racing, I am sure gussetts could be designed and tig'd in.

Florentino, take the frame to a fab shop and see what they can come up with, it may save you hundreds of dollars and help out the DS450 community.
Judging by the looks of that break, it looks as though you could knock out the Hy-loc and tig in a thicker plate. And from what I have heard, the correct grade 8 stainless bolts will keep this frame together better than the Hy-locs.

the bad part is that the frame is twisted from this, also the alumimun is so thin you cant really weld it. unlees it was the kawasaki. on a steel frame you get a crack, you gusset it and thats it real simple. i was thinking about making some parts out of cronomoly, but if i find a frame for 400 used i will be happy ..
i bet you any thing that if all can an ds 450 owners check there frame wheel base and start checking there frame they will find something.. i dont want to soon so negative about the ds. there was soo many people taking about the frames well, a pic tell the story.

[Racers Dad 37]

Originally posted by florentino
so i now need a frame, any one have one for sale at a good prize. i have $350 to spend, i hope some one will gime me a deal.
so theres your pics dont lie. this frame never felt good since new, and my dealer sucks they dont care, yea one sales guy said you can replace whats broken. yea lol they will charge me more then 1200 and take months to do it no thanks, i fond a frame on ebay for 400 but it was bolted together on some areas.

So how did them Alumimum A-Arms hold up in the wreck? Sorry I'm not going to believe this just happen without contact or fliping.
Can Am frame may not take as big a shoot as we would like but they don't just fail with out some other action. Guess this is the price for lite and fast.

Think of it this way you could build a airplane so everyone would live in the crash but it probable won't fly

The reason it twisted is the bottom plate is bent to the side and not only cracked if you drill the head off the 2 hy-loc in photo and drive them out you will see they are bent like S and take out the bolt coming up from the and it will be almost split in two

You could repair your frame by ordering the damage parts but it will be bolted together just like the ones you look at and many pro team quads cause that how you replace damage parts on DS
be glad you can buy parts because YFZ you can only buy the frame and no parts of it and it like $1800 now that sucks.

[florentino]

Originally posted by Racers Dad 37
So how did them Alumimum A-Arms hold up in the wreck? Sorry I'm not going to believe this just happen without contact or fliping.
Can Am frame may not take as big a shoot as we would like but they don't just fail with out some other action. Guess this is the price for lite and fast.

Think of it this way you could build a airplane so everyone would live in the crash but it probable won't fly

The reason it twisted is the bottom plate is bent to the side and not only cracked if you drill the head off the 2 hy-loc in photo and drive them out you will see they are bent like S and take out the bolt coming up from the and it will be almost split in two

You could repair your frame by ordering the damage parts but it will be bolted together just like the ones you look at and many pro team quads cause that how you replace damage parts on DS
be glad you can buy parts because YFZ you can only buy the frame and no parts of it and it like $1800 now that sucks. a arms are find. i am 200lbs and a race in some cmc races and the tracks are ment for dirt bikes lots of dobles and triples. i only rolled the quad wen i get stuck on the dirtbike ruts but thats minor stuff any quad can take. i was riding this like that for a long time. because that crack is no easy to see in back of the radiator. i am just going to replace the frame with a use one and never race .. this quad is not worth wasting my money, a have the stock axel is bent a little just from regular use. i am going to spend soo much money, and the motor has not fail, i did had limp mode and i got the bugs out. this was the worst buy ever. i want a ltr so bad,

[Racers Dad 37]

You maybe if you want to get out of it you should just part it out may save you some money

[nvrpmx]

I can tell you no one from the motoworks team said this is a weak area because we have not had that problem with any of our quads.

Dont get me wrong we have twisted some frames up bent, broke, etc. but all in crashs and i know they all do that no matter what brand.The motoworks teams back ground comes from all brands and we all are really happy with the can-am trust me.

[TNT]

Gentlemen,

Lets put this in perspective and not to sugar coat the fact that the frame(and axle) needs design changes and improvements. If we say everything is fine, nothng will ever improve and beside BRP can’t expect to a release a perfect first year design nor can thier customers. My concerns here are not to bash this frame, again it’s the best design in the industy, but rather to offer some suggestions to improve it. We don’t want to blow this thing out of porportion either, to gain the proper persepctive we’d need to take a look at all the frames released compare that to the # failed. I bet if you took that comparision to the other al designs on the market the ds out performs. Again, we can’t get away from the fact that we have seen some failures around hi-locks and it appears some basic strutural design practices with regard to edge margins and pitch were violated and may be casing problems in other locations some of which may be isloated, and cross-sectional areas at these faster locations are inadequate.

The hi-loc – lets get a better understanding of it, first it is extremely strong! Why? Because it’s permanent and should be installed in tight tolerance holes, some to .0001 sometimes to an interference fit hole that is close reamed and checked with a ball gage and calibers, if not installed properly the hi-loc can fail and cause other problems . These hi-loc’s have the capibility to take 170-190,000 KSI, lbs of load more than any bolt and nut and so must the structure they are installed in. Some installed in tight holes can’t move around or elongate holes like bolts at nuts in loose holes other OEM’s use, thats the good news. The bad news is being permanent they are difficult to R&R. You could say if you are designing for “replacability” this fastener gets a grade F, strength an A+. Why? Since most of the general public are not skilled or knowledgable enough to know that you have to carefully break the collar off, drift it out be very carefull not to elongate or enlarge the hole to obtain the same fit upon reinstallation and it takes special tooling a hi-loc gun. When the hole is enlarged beyond the original drilling tolerances, a 1/64 or 1/32 oversize hole and hi-loc has to be installed not a bolt/nut. Thats a general rule of thumb, in some cases the larger fastener can take on too much load or a weaker bolt/nut cause adjacent hi-loc problems, again there are other considerations like edge margin and pitch can be obtained. If the hi-loc is bent or in an s-shape thats a pretty good indication that there is too much load at the joint and it was designed or installed improperly especially if we see multiple failures.

Crash loads – a well designed frame takes them into consideration although it can be a balancing act between weight and marigins. Margins are safty factors that are added to the thickness or fastener sizes, for example to compensate for high loads in a crash and/or for other safety reasons sometimes dictated by SAE.....What these OEM’s should do or be required to do, is run a series of crash test with stress/strain gages on the quad to develope crash loads and use them to design to with normal operating loads. They may find that there are certain areas that will fail a crash that need more mass and others that can be lightened.

Flex – There is alot that can contrubute to frame flex, fasteners, thinkness and material of transferse fitting’s, plates such as the skid that could be made of steel, but there again weight is a consideration. Some flex of aluminum on hot days is inherent in the design and but most al alloys have good modulus of elasticity and return to shape, though this must be considered when installing and assembling hi-locks, etc. Ideally a light weight design/build is great but not at the expense of low cycle hours and mean time between failures.

If we are back to square one where the “race quad” needs a gusseted frame, new axle, arms, to be “race ready” then we have not meet the marketing baseline. At this point, if this design is to continue for 2010 suggest BRP go back to thier updated design CATIA/NASTRAN models and offer frame mod kits that are proven, crash tested, to be effective to general public and race teams until the baseline design can be modified. At this point in time I and I am sure there are others that would buy the kit if it were designed properly and we seen no more costly frame issues. If that calls for removing hi-locks, welding, etc the dealerships should be the ones to perform those operations. The after market industry does not have the design tools(Catia/Nastran) and will be at the mercy of feild testing thier ideas to the public.

That’s the way I see it, my axle has failed cost me $800 and I have seen several out here and frame problems regardless of all the “success the race teams have had”, if my frame fails and cost me $1200 on top of the axle for $800 that’s $2,000 maybe more in wasted travel money, inconvenience, labor, on top of the purchase price I’d be pretty disappointed and upset too.

Sorry about the book, intent to help better the product.

TNT :D

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
Gentlemen,

Lets put this in perspective and not to sugar coat the fact that the frame(and axle) needs design changes and improvements. If we say everything is fine, nothng will ever improve and beside BRP can’t expect to a release a perfect first year design nor can thier customers. My concerns here are not to bash this frame, again it’s the best design in the industy, but rather to offer some suggestions to improve it. We don’t want to blow this thing out of porportion either, to gain the proper persepctive we’d need to take a look at all the frames released compare that to the # failed. I bet if you took that comparision to the other al designs on the market the ds out performs. Again, we can’t get away from the fact that we have seen some failures around hi-locks and it appears some basic strutural design practices with regard to edge margins and pitch were violated and may be casing problems in other locations some of which may be isloated, and cross-sectional areas at these faster locations are inadequate.

The hi-loc – lets get a better understanding of it, first it is extremely strong! Why? Because it’s permanent and should be installed in tight tolerance holes, some to .0001 sometimes to an interference fit hole that is close reamed and checked with a ball gage and calibers, if not installed properly the hi-loc can fail and cause other problems . These hi-loc’s have the capibility to take 170-190,000 KSI, lbs of load more than any bolt and nut and so must the structure they are installed in. Some installed in tight holes can’t move around or elongate holes like bolts at nuts in loose holes other OEM’s use, thats the good news. The bad news is being permanent they are difficult to R&R. You could say if you are designing for “replacability” this fastener gets a grade F, strength an A+. Why? Since most of the general public are not skilled or knowledgable enough to know that you have to carefully break the collar off, drift it out be very carefull not to elongate or enlarge the hole to obtain the same fit upon reinstallation and it takes special tooling a hi-loc gun. When the hole is enlarged beyond the original drilling tolerances, a 1/64 or 1/32 oversize hole and hi-loc has to be installed not a bolt/nut. Thats a general rule of thumb, in some cases the larger fastener can take on too much load or a weaker bolt/nut cause adjacent hi-loc problems, again there are other considerations like edge margin and pitch can be obtained. If the hi-loc is bent or in an s-shape thats a pretty good indication that there is too much load at the joint and it was designed or installed improperly especially if we see multiple failures.

Crash loads – a well designed frame takes them into consideration although it can be a balancing act between weight and marigins. Margins are safty factors that are added to the thickness or fastener sizes, for example to compensate for high loads in a crash and/or for other safety reasons sometimes dictated by SAE.....What these OEM’s should do or be required to do, is run a series of crash test with stress/strain gages on the quad to develope crash loads and use them to design to with normal operating loads. They may find that there are certain areas that will fail a crash that need more mass and others that can be lightened.

Flex – There is alot that can contrubute to frame flex, fasteners, thinkness and material of transferse fitting’s, plates such as the skid that could be made of steel, but there again weight is a consideration. Some flex of aluminum on hot days is inherent in the design and but most al allows have good modulus of elasticity and return to shape, though this must be considered when installing and assembling hi-locks, etc. Ideally a light weight design/build is great but not at the expense of low cycle hours and mean time between failures.

If we are back to square one where the “race quad” needs a gusseted frame, new axle, arms, to be “race ready” then we have not meet the marketing baseline. At this point, if this design is to continue for 2010 suggest BRP go back to thier updated design CATIA/NASTRAN models and offer frame mod kits that are proven, crash tested, to be effective to general public and race teams until the baseline design can be modified. At this point in time I and I am sure there are others that would buy the kit if it were designed properly and we seen no more costly frame issues. If that calls for removing hi-locks, welding, etc the dealerships should be the ones to perform those operations. The after market industry does not have the design tools(Catia/Nastran) and will be at the mercy of feild testing thier ideas to the public.

That’s the way I see it, my axle has failed cost me $800 and I have seen several out here and frame problems regardless of all the “success the race teams have had”, if my frame fails and cost me $1200 on top of the axle for $800 that’s $2,000 maybe more in wasted travel money, inconvenience, labor, on top of the purchase price I’d be pretty disappointed and upset too.

Sorry about the book, intent to help better the product.

TNT :D the reason i post this add was to ask the public how is there frame holding, up,

[florentino]

Originally posted by nvrpmx
I can tell you no one from the motoworks team said this is a weak area because we have not had that problem with any of our quads.

Dont get me wrong we have twisted some frames up bent, broke, etc. but all in crashs and i know they all do that no matter what brand.The motoworks teams back ground comes from all brands and we all are really happy with the can-am trust me.
none of this pros are using the same frame for more then year they just sell the old one and get new ones, thats what i heard
thats why theres so many fatory bikes for sale. this pros don t want to take the chanse on old stuff .. like changin new chains,tires,motors, and so on

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
the reason i post this add was to ask the public how is there frame holding, up,

If you read the last paragraph I answered that, I have seen alot I don't want to see on my frame...I think we need someone to offer a well designed gusset kit! and that s/b BRP.

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
If you read the last paragraph I answered that, I have seen alot I don't want to see on my frame...I think we need someone to offer a well designed gusset kit! and that s/b BRP.
tnt you are the man that can come up with some gussets ideas.

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
tnt you are the man that can come up with some gussets ideas.

Yeah I could IF BRP gave me thier models.....:D

[blaster99]

I think everyone needs to wait till 2011. Word on the street is its gonna be redone.

[ThePhantomRider]

Well if the frame had been designed for a 450 4-stroke motor as opposed to a 250 two stroke motor, there would be a lot less issue with failures. There is a lot more weight and torque with the DS motor...(I know, the DS is not the most torquey motor but more than the originally planned 2 stroke.
As for a gusset kit, you could make some of the alloy pieces out of chrome moly steel. You sacrifice weight, but I can tell you, you get a stronger frame.
So if they do re-design the frame, it will probably look quite different. Expect changes in the "hips" especially.

TPR

[TNT]

AL doesn't weld that good, they probably used 2024-T3 since this design has no welds vs 6061 which has good weldability. Whether 4130 would weld to 2024 not that good then the al surrounding the bead would be weak. Friction stir welding may be the only choice in this application al-to-steel, it's seemless and homogenous, good luck finding it and if you do it will cost.

BRP needs to design the kit and find an easy way for the average joe blow to fasten it on, it's not always about local failure but what cause the failure at that point....that can be from the other side of the frame in flex and where you want the fix. The models tell the story best.

Thats the beauty of investing tons of R&D as they claim they have with NASTRAN/CATIA models one can EASILY design a light weight kit. CATIA V5 which is how this frame was designed is extremely fast and accurated to create/modify once the base models are right and that gives BRP an advantage to look at the CG, you can find it fast too and see if it's still in design limits. It's thier manu line that wil take the big hit from the changes.

You got a good point about the motor I didn't know that, thats a big part of the weight and where the frame flex/torque and other issues may be stemming from in part.

[xrxmxcx]

__it happens and stuff breaks, the average joe doesn't have to worry about breaking or bending their frame! You had to have had a bad crash or have had made note of something happening, it just doesn't appear!

FRAME #1 - 100FT downhill triple landed sideways bent one of mine.

FRAME #2 - flip/crash and the pan was the issue but every frame would wreck at this point.

BOTH TIMES, we had a failure in the piece you are showing in your photos.

IT HAPPENS!

[TNT]

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
__it happens and stuff breaks, the average joe doesn't have to worry about breaking or bending their frame! You had to have had a bad crash or have had made note of something happening, it just doesn't appear!

FRAME #1 - 100FT downhill triple landed sideways bent one of mine.

FRAME #2 - flip/crash and the pan was the issue but every frame would wreck at this point.

BOTH TIMES, we had a failure in the piece you are showing in your photos.

IT HAPPENS!

Boy how your tune has changed over the months since you bent demolished your frame.. I remember you being VERY disappointed when you emailed me the pics, and as a matter of fact I remember you never answering my question if you got into a wreck seemed like you wanted at the time BRP to take the rap, we figured you had to on our own now I remember Chris figured it out, to finally see the details of your wreck later I am appauled. You confided in me but now reading your emails back then, lets just say you had quite a different tune quite close or worse to floritino's. Now the owner of this thread I will call an average Joe blow has bent a frame under light racing conditions as we bent an axle under the same last weekend AX and NOW all you got to say is it happens....lol! :rolleyes:

Looking back at your emails I don't think all you had to say when it happen to you is, "it happens" and "it's not happening to the race teams" or "don't worry about it" :rolleyes:

I guess time heals all wounds as they say....:D

PS: I also got some emails of no crash frame failures of kids below the average joe blow, about 15 just started racing mom was concerned and did know what to do needed advice and one b-class racer I seen personally at a TX race few months ago I helped out. :confused:

[florentino]

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
__it happens and stuff breaks, the average joe doesn't have to worry about breaking or bending their frame! You had to have had a bad crash or have had made note of something happening, it just doesn't appear!

FRAME #1 - 100FT downhill triple landed sideways bent one of mine.

FRAME #2 - flip/crash and the pan was the issue but every frame would wreck at this point.

BOTH TIMES, we had a failure in the piece you are showing in your photos.

IT HAPPENS! how come more people dont put their pics.
theres a guy from motoworks he now rides yamaha told me not to tell his name that this is the week area in the frame.

[TNT]

Originally posted by florentino
how come more people dont put their pics.
theres a guy from motoworks he now rides yamaha told me not to tell his name that this is the week area in the frame.

Because they are afraid they will loose rider support. Irony is anyone that appears to make everything look great makes thier sponsors look foolish, we all know no product is perfect. :D

[ZX11]

Originally posted by florentino
none of this pros are using the same frame for more then year they just sell the old one and get new ones, thats what i heard
thats why theres so many fatory bikes for sale. this pros don t want to take the chanse on old stuff .. like changin new chains,tires,motors, and so on

Good point. For racing, you wouldn't want a heavily gussetted frame unless it improved handling. Pros need bikes that can win. They are willing to sacrifice wreckability.

For wrecking, you would want a heavily gussetted frame. Can you really make a frame (or axel) that a rider can't break? The rider will always poo poo down the degree to which the damage is his fault.

[TNT]

Originally posted by ZX11
Can you really make a frame (or axel) that a rider can't break? The rider will always poo poo down the degree to which the damage is his fault.

Yes! Can we fly a space shuttle to the moon? Can we make a airplane out of plastic composites? ....flew two days ago, 787 Dreamliner. We design airplanes to minimize the effects of a crash, to a 9g crash means that if a plane goes into a 9g dive or crashes the passengers have a good chance of surviving......Same with a quad but you have to test out the crash condition develop and analyze the loads and design to them. I can bet you have areas on any quad that are over designed, will take 10 time the load any crash would develop and others like we see above that won't take 1/2.

We're getting deep here, and it may appear I am exploding this thing way out of porportion that is not the intent, just trying to illustrate some aspects of design, my world has much more $ than the ATV world so take what I say with a grain of salt. Money can make things happen and you probably would not want to pay the price for a frame that never broke, but yes it can be done it will happen for reasonable cost someday mark my words. :D

[ZX11]

Originally posted by TNT
Yes! Can we fly a space shuttle to the moon? Can we make a airplane out of plastic composites? ....flew two days ago, 787 Dreamliner. We design airplanes to minimize the effects of a crash, to a 9g crash means that if a plane goes into a 9g dive or crashes the passengers have a good chance of surviving......Same with a quad but you have to test out the crash condition develop and analyze the loads and design to them. I can bet you have areas on any quad that are over designed, will take 10 time the load any crash would develop and others like we see above that won't take 1/2.



False analogy. The ability to build a flying truck out of plastic that helps its passengers survive a crash or take a man to the moon does not correlate to keeping race winning ATVs undamaged in wrecks. The 787 owner would be complaining about structure damage after the crash. Those 787 engineers would just claim they design the DS-450 to break in the area it breaks to enable the rider to survive the 9g impact from casing the 100ft tripple :)

You strengthen the frame and the you would still have riders who just wrecked it harder (120ft tripples) before complaining on here. You can't make it wreck proof and still be an ATV.

Obviously can am will build a better frame but it will be a small step at a time as technology progresses. That frame will still be broken by racers who then complain to the manufacturer.

[blaster99]

Can-am already has the best frame out there IMO. Every frame cracks, so you can't really hold it against them. They do read these forums, and I am sure they will look into strengthening these areas for the 2011 model.

[comander420]

Cannondale had an almost perfect frame back in 2001. They also had a carbon fiber axle that they they had made prototypes of that was almost unbreakable. I only ever heard of 1 cannondale frame breaking and that was because my buddy put it sideways into a telephone pole and it broke but protected him pretty good. It's a shame no company picked up Cannondale and saved all that technology and improved upon it.

[florentino]

Originally posted by blaster99
Can-am already has the best frame out there IMO. Every frame cracks, so you can't really hold it against them. They do read these forums, and I am sure they will look into strengthening these areas for the 2011 model.

ever notice how simple it is to work on a honda 450 . i love the jap desings. the ds its so complex motor,and frame,
i have roll my trx down hills and just a stem bar, and put 10 more abuse then the ds,
banshees are so old and still king in the drags,

[xrxmxcx]

how much do you want for the rest of your DS, maybe you will stop complaining then

give me a price, ill take it from ya!

[TNT]

Originally posted by ZX11
False analogy. The ability to build a flying truck out of plastic that helps its passengers survive a crash or take a man to the moon does not correlate to keeping race winning ATVs undamaged in wrecks. The 787 owner would be complaining about structure damage after the crash. Those 787 engineers would just claim they design the DS-450 to break in the area it breaks to enable the rider to survive the 9g impact from casing the 100ft tripple :)

You strengthen the frame and the you would still have riders who just wrecked it harder (120ft tripples) before complaining on here. You can't make it wreck proof and still be an ATV.

Obviously can am will build a better frame but it will be a small step at a time as technology progresses. That frame will still be broken by racers who then complain to the manufacturer.

It was a very accurate analogy, you just are not subjected to the structural technology I am so you don’t understand. I've work on composites since 1982 design and manu, the latest tech that is vertually indestructable made of filiment wound composites that is light weight and 10 times stronger than steel. That technolgy will eventually catch up to the ATV industry and surpass the Cannodale but the problem right now is cost. Why I said you would not want to pay for that frame.

Get this guy’s, little off topic....I just talked to Trever at an AX in Oklahoma and his buddy snapped in half a Honda Axcaliber after a couple years of running it at practice yesterday. He’s ok hurt his ankle or something but WOW! We have ran a Dom on a YAM for three years and it’s still as straight as new, I’m glad I choose it over the AXC for our DS.

[LTRracer4]

I bent a Dom 4 times on my yamaha:chinese:

[TNT]

Originally posted by LTRracer4
I bent a Dom 4 times on my yamaha:chinese:

Dom 2? Did they replace it?

[john willhoite]

TNT,

How many times have you guys raced your DS?
How long have you had it?

Thanks
John W

[LTRracer4]

Originally posted by TNT
Dom 2? Did they replace it?

Yes they did. It took 2 weeks each time, but they were very easy to work with and it was no big deal. I had 2 dom 1's and then when they first came out with the dom 2 the first batch wasnt as good as the ones to follow and i believe i got one from that batch, then the last one i pretty much put on and sold the right after. I was pretty unexperienced back then too. That could have made it worse.

[TNT]

Originally posted by john willhoite
TNT,

How many times have you guys raced your DS?
How long have you had it?

Thanks
John W

Well John that’s a long story most that follow these forums know, but to make a long story short we bought it about a year ago but don’t have that many hours on it since we tried to develop a big bore (blew the motor) and several other prototypes.....now we finally got a configuration we like that we are testing this winter. We ran lets see LL with a blown head gasket , we think it was the copper since it blown a second time couple weeks ago so we went back to modified stock and are watching it. Then we ran a Fun Time National in TX, then couple weeks ago an AX in MS axle bent at practice, one local race, now tonight in a few hours getting ready to let er rip once again in OK at a AX. So to answer the question with practicing and all after tonight I'd say about 20 maybe 25 hours on it, half a dozen races or so over a year. Trever loves the quad and won’t part with it/ 495 big bore is finally putting out some good power how reliable TBD. Hopefully theres enough margin in our frame to handle more torque out of the motor.



Originally posted by LTRracer4
Yes they did. It took 2 weeks each time, but they were very easy to work with and it was no big deal. I had 2 dom 1's and then when they first came out with the dom 2 the first batch wasnt as good as the ones to follow and i believe i got one from that batch, then the last one i pretty much put on and sold the right after. I was pretty unexperienced back then too. That could have made it worse.

Yeah we bent the DOM 1’s owned two must have got a later batch of DOM 2’s on our YFZ’s two since they have held up great so I went with it on the DS. Besides the hollow Axc cost $100 more and is a pound heavier. I think what sets these two companies apart from stock is the warantee when raced. I think the guy on the HON had a solid. Weird!

[kellymi]

Originally posted by florentino
ever notice how simple it is to work on a honda 450 . i love the jap desings. the ds its so complex motor,and frame,
i have roll my trx down hills and just a stem bar, and put 10 more abuse then the ds,
banshees are so old and still king in the drags,

I rolled my DS down the hill at the famous hill at the Ironman this year on the first lap. I was almost to the top and it started to go over. If you saw the video of Mcgill rolling it on the hill that is the exact line I rolled mine on. I had the good fortune of sitting at the top of the hill and watch my quad roll down the hill, and it rolled hard. The only thing that broke was one of my handguards. Nothing else happened to it, didn't even bend the handlebars. Went on to finish the race. No quad is indestructable and there will be problems with every quad. So far after one season of racing on my DS the only problem I have had is frying my clutch at the Ironman.

[florentino]

Originally posted by xrxmxcx
how much do you want for the rest of your DS, maybe you will stop complaining then

give me a price, ill take it from ya!

its not even paid for? i was one of the first guys in norcal to get a ds when it came out. i paid 8000 out the door, so i am stuck with this thing. but i always have 2 spare quads i do have my yamaha yfz 450 i did not like it. but now i have long travel ,and love my yamaha, i am planing to make a buggy with the ds parts. i done one with the 650 ds i have some pics to show you,

[andiboy123]

how much you want for your broken frame?
send me a pm

[nate450x]

Originally posted by comander420
Cannondale had an almost perfect frame back in 2001. They also had a carbon fiber axle that they they had made prototypes of that was almost unbreakable. I only ever heard of 1 cannondale frame breaking and that was because my buddy put it sideways into a telephone pole and it broke but protected him pretty good. It's a shame no company picked up Cannondale and saved all that technology and improved upon it.




Cannandale was picked up by a company that now calls them ATK! They purchased Cannondale in 03' and have been using the platform ever since.

[RosquistRacer39]

Originally posted by nate450x
Cannandale was picked up by a company that now calls them ATK! They purchased Cannondale in 03' and have been using the platform ever since.

Actually the cannondale design and patents were bought by dinli. Atk just bought up the stockpile of leftover parts and have been using them ever since.

What I find funny is how cannondale was able to produce a chassis that was dang near indestructible, and that was welded together. All this talk of bolting the frames together might be over thinking it IMO. If cannondale can produce this 10 years ago how come todays companys cant reproduce the same results? If only we had supported cannondale we might have a true race ready quad now days.

[250racer2010]

Originally posted by florentino
heres the funny thing i first notice the crack on the bottom no big deal, then a week later i was changing my stem bar, removed the radiator and thats how i saw that crack on top by the shock mount,


my friends broke in 7 places. his first broke in the upper shock mount same as yours then on the bottom and had it welded in both places. it then broke 1 month later and he just bought two new front frame peices for 45$ and i would look at a bolt on the bottom of the frame right below the oil tank it keeps the front of the frame from swaying side to side that could cause it to break we just locktighted the bolt and havnt had a problem yet.

[TNT]

Originally posted by RosquistRacer39
Actually the cannondale design and patents were bought by dinli. Atk just bought up the stockpile of leftover parts and have been using them ever since.

What I find funny is how cannondale was able to produce a chassis that was dang near indestructible, and that was welded together. All this talk of bolting the frames together might be over thinking it IMO. If cannondale can produce this 10 years ago how come todays companys cant reproduce the same results? If only we had supported cannondale we might have a true race ready quad now days.

I think were they messed up on the bolt is the use of a huck bolt, it has an extended stub that breaks off by a gun at a certain torque value the collar is then swaged on. There permenant and the only way to take them off is to break the collar drift the bolt out carefully, they are not very replaceable. Heres a pic see the recessed area. Again you have to own a gun for this DS450 bolt.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/heavy-duty-lock-bolt-212162.jpg

A better more user friendly just as strong choice would be the hi-loc or lock bolt. If you look real close at the end of the bolt there is hex key recess so you can install these bolts blind, from one side too, you hold the bolt and turn the collar, in this case the recessed area is on the collar and you can use a rachet untill the collar breaks at the correct torque ....see the pic so anyone can take these off although there are guns to install them too. Couple that with a frame that has all replaceable sections would be ideal!

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/hilok_large.jpg


Both of these bolts are stronger than your normal high grade steel bolt and nut and are usually installed in a close ream hole...........But still the structure must be designed right these bolts are going through or they will cause frame failure.

Not sure how heavy the Cannondale was but typically aluminum welds are not as strong as these fasteners no where close. Both fasteners are used extensively in aircraft and have been tested as flight worthy whereas there are no welds on primary structure aircraft, little to none at all I have seen anyway. All I know is if you take the DS motor out like on our 09 even with 4130 arms it's super light I can pick it up tires, rims, etc attached and all with one hand. :D

[Claas900]

I think a Cdale frame is about 42lbs? It's been a wile. I've been told tho that you can cut off 10lbs and still have a reasonably strong frame but I don't know for sure tho.

[florentino]

Originally posted by 250racer2010
my friends broke in 7 places. his first broke in the upper shock mount same as yours then on the bottom and had it welded in both places. it then broke 1 month later and he just bought two new front frame peices for 45$ and i would look at a bolt on the bottom of the frame right below the oil tank it keeps the front of the frame from swaying side to side that could cause it to break we just locktighted the bolt and havnt had a problem yet.
thats what happen bulls eye. the bolt came out, it was too late once i found out.. it is real stupid to only have 2 bolts holding the front lower piece.

[florentino]

Originally posted by RosquistRacer39
Actually the cannondale design and patents were bought by dinli. Atk just bought up the stockpile of leftover parts and have been using them ever since.

What I find funny is how cannondale was able to produce a chassis that was dang near indestructible, and that was welded together. All this talk of bolting the frames together might be over thinking it IMO. If cannondale can produce this 10 years ago how come todays companys cant reproduce the same results? If only we had supported cannondale we might have a true race ready quad now days.

i agree with you 100% reason why they did not do good was there was magazines like dirt wheels bashing on the reviews. its always yamaha the winner, this can am guys make the motor a tank as its heavy, and go cheap on the frame. reason the can am wins races its cause of the super fast riders. i see every body selling there can am s real cheap. one used 2008 for $3500 real cheap,

[TNT]

I don’t know the history or evolution of the Can-am frame but when I seen the sales video when we bought our 09 year ago I was impressed since it looked like Can-am had really done thier homework, devloped the loads for the NASTRAN model. NASTRAN is not guess work, I mean it cost companies a fortune to first build a protoype put it through a developmental test phase where they put stress/strain gages on the structure then take that info back and forth to thier NASTRAN model. See once that stress NASTRAN model is correct, the Design Engineers can use a 3D graphics model called CATIA to design with, then the NASTRAN model validates a bunch a different load cases at different areas or joints on the frame. BRP claims to have used CATIA V5 which some of the most sophisticated aircraft in the world are being designed by. If I remember the video correct, it claimed to have taken five years to develop this quad. Now we all know BRP didn’t just start with blank white paper and it’s predesssor Cdale was looked at as well as others on the market. But five years of testing, wow, timely development you would not expect to see joint failure like we are seeing. I, and I know Bombaria Aircraft , Big brother BRP, has designed and certified much more complicated aircraft in 5 years or less. Go figure!

Welcome to NASTRAN technology, you know the boys over at Cdale didn’t have these tools in thier tool box and I don’t doubt if you’re real smart you can keep loads away from those weld joints without the models just lots of good ol fashion testing and smarts!

Lets see, now if the rumors on the street are valid or not, I don’t know, is # 1 the DS frame was designed to a 250r motor, #2 BRP will redesign the frame in 2011. What baffles me if those two are true is I would expect the 250r to be much lighter and that statement nullifes all I said above about developing NASTRAN 450 loads, and # 2, if you really did take the time and money to develop these models it shouldn’t take 3 years years after to make corrections they should have occured in 2010. One of the great benefits to investing the time up front is the ability to easily modify the design/loads and the production philosopy, the latter being more difficult.


Well I’ll say this is not the only company that seems a little strange!

Look at NASTRAN and how accurately it depicts the loads on every square inch of the frame, how this area above got past this model and "rigid 5 year testing" is beyond me. We do old fashion hand calculations that these cross sections would not show good are more accurate and would take less than five hours not years to figure!

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/797px-Nastran_strut.jpg