WOW, Here's a .22 that will knock your socks off !

[tri5ron]

pretty sure this isn't used for squirrel or rabbit hunting...

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[S.A.J]

I WANT :eek2:

[slightlybent47]

Originally posted by S.A.J
I WANT :eek2:

Me too!!!!!!!

[One_Bad_400]

nice! i changed my christmas list!

[gcart2]

Ill stick with a bolt action, every time he does that its $20 bucks, atleast. i can shoot for 4 or five hours on 550 rounds lol.

[fasterblaster09]

thats awesome, that would be considered illegal right? beings how it's full auto?

[Brauap]

Honestly.. think how FUN that would be.. sitting in your backyard in a lawn chair with that sitting on your lap waiting for a groundhog to pop his head out the whole!

[jcv400ex]

Originally posted by Brauap
Honestly.. think how FUN that would be.. sitting in your backyard in a lawn chair with that sitting on your lap waiting for a groundhog to pop his head out the whole!


Black birds!!!!!:devil:

[swamp]

WOW THAT IS SA WHEAT!!!!

where is it made i want 1

[buck440]

Originally posted by fasterblaster09
thats awesome, that would be considered illegal right? beings how it's full auto? believe it or not full auto weapons are not illegal but in most states they are but be ready to fork out a pretty penny or two to own one and among other things you can posses are silencers which i seen in a gun shop in evansville in the other day for around $300 and it is even legal to own a sawed off shotgun in some of the few states if registered properly, correct me if i'm wrong?:)

[hypersnyper6947]

Anything full auto or silenced is considered a class 3 weapon. you have to obtain a class 3 stamp before you can get one. You have to apply for the stamp and they do a extensive background check as well as check out where you live and your safe has to be in some certain spec before they will give you one. The stamp alone is $300 plus the price of the gun. There are other guns that are considered class 3 as well. Like if you put a short barrel on an AR its a class 3, i dont remember the length though. Its a pretty big process.

[ben300]

i believe its shorter than 16" then its illegal...you also cannot own a sawed off shotgun with a barrel shorter than 16" inches in the united states, or its a felony, regardless of whether or not you have a class 3 ffl....also, by the time you get your class 3 ffl, your gonna spend nearly a thousand bucks through getting the licence, and then getting it approved by your state government as well..

[extremeblastr]

connecticut allows for the purchase of silencers but you must have a permit for each silencer, there is a gunsmith here called jojos gunworks that makes a fully suppressed 10/22 rifle and all you can hear is the tink of the slide when its fired.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by extremeblastr
connecticut allows for the purchase of silencers but you must have a permit for each silencer, there is a gunsmith here called jojos gunworks that makes a fully suppressed 10/22 rifle and all you can hear is the tink of the slide when its fired. When I was a kid, we made a couple from the "Pea shooter" muffler tips off a old VW muffler. worked surprisingly well actually, not much louder than a single clap of your hands.
Opposums were now open game on the power lines around our house. Ahh, the good 'ol days...

[reptikes]

I'd much rather have a semi auto of ANYTHING else. Full Auto or not, its still shooting .22 shells!

[buck440]

i hate illinois gun laws probably the most strict next to cAliFôrnÃ�Ã_:ermm:

[eastcoastpro20]

Originally posted by reptikes
I'd much rather have a semi auto of ANYTHING else. Full Auto or not, its still shooting .22 shells!

.22 shells are some of the most dangerous because they do not exit, they enter the body and bounce around causing alot of damage

[Pappy]

Originally posted by eastcoastpro20
.22 shells are some of the most dangerous because they do not exit, they enter the body and bounce around causing alot of damage

Ive seen 22LR go clean througha deer, ive seen it go in one ear and out the other (literally) on a person, ive seen a 22 LR out penetrate common handgun calibers in body armor. I have never witnessed a 22 LR tumble or bounce inside a body.

Cool link

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=504301&page=1

[gtt416ex]

Originally posted by eastcoastpro20
.22 shells are some of the most dangerous because they do not exit, they enter the body and bounce around causing alot of damage

and if they ever find a bone, they'll follow it.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by gtt416ex
and if they ever find a bone, they'll follow it.

Skull is bone:p

Ive personally shot crop damage deer at ranges to 100 yards with head shots that were fatal. Bullets rarely follow bone, they will break(fragment) or glance off. You can check out data that shows alot of close range shots that followed the skull after failing to penetrate but there isnt much out there to back up any bullets following a rib or larger bone.

[gtt416ex]

Originally posted by Pappy
Skull is bone:p

Ive personally shot crop damage deer at ranges to 100 yards with head shots that were fatal. Bullets rarely follow bone, they will break(fragment) or glance off. You can check out data that shows alot of close range shots that followed the skull after failing to penetrate but there isnt much out there to back up any bullets following a rib or larger bone.

haha, i should've been more specific. :p

a boy i went to middle school with shot himself with a .22 and there was no exit wound:( you may be right though, i've read a few things that said a .22 will follow bones, but also read where they won't.

[siggy konowaluk]

i want one!

[Pappy]

You have to take into account the angle the bullet may have contacted bone, the clothing, the bullet construction etc. Alot more to it then just stating bullets follow bone.

Ive seen people that commited suicide that shot themselves in the head with everything from a 22 to a 357...some did not exit, others did. There is no garuntee unless the testing involved a very detailed set of values.....in the real world that doesnt occur often. There are detailed reports where police officers were killed by a 22 or even a 25 and others that took multiple hits in the chest from heavy calibers and survived.

I have rounds that will not penetrate a ground hog as they will all but disinegrate upon impact....while I have others that will go clean through a car. I can load those varmint targeted rounds to turn to virtual dust at 100 yards and barely penetrate paper. (Thin jacketed bullet construction combined with maximum loads)

All said in done, id rather take a hit from a badly placed 357 then a well placed 22.

[gtt416ex]

Originally posted by Pappy
All said in done, id rather take a hit from a badly placed 357 then a well placed 22.

very true.

but i'd rather take the other option of not taking a bullet at all:D

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
You have to take into account the angle the bullet may have contacted bone, the clothing, the bullet construction etc. Alot more to it then just stating bullets follow bone.

Ive seen people that commited suicide that shot themselves in the head with everything from a 22 to a 357...some did not exit, others did. There is no garuntee unless the testing involved a very detailed set of values.....in the real world that doesnt occur often. There are detailed reports where police officers were killed by a 22 or even a 25 and others that took multiple hits in the chest from heavy calibers and survived.

I have rounds that will not penetrate a ground hog as they will all but disinegrate upon impact....while I have others that will go clean through a car. I can load those varmint targeted rounds to turn to virtual dust at 100 yards and barely penetrate paper. (Thin jacketed bullet construction combined with maximum loads)

All said in done, id rather take a hit from a badly placed 357 then a well placed 22.

i would also rather take a badly placed shot from anything rahter than a well placed shot from anything..


your comparing apples to oranges...i could jsut as easly kill with a bow as a 22...

and, before they came otu with the electrified floor..they used to use 22's to kill animals and such....one shot to the fore head...at least at the meat processing place i used to work at..we would use a 22 because it would not exit the skull

and also..where have you seen all of these ppl who have been shot or commited suicide....do you take photo's for your county's coroner or something?

[Pappy]

Well I will add that I have seen a steer take a 9mm to the forehead and it not penetrate...like I stated, you cant make claims with aboslutes when it comes to how bullets react unless you use a controlled set of tests. Yes, a bow will kill, so will a pencil but thats not the subject matter being discussed.

I was a firefighter for alot of years....got to see alot more then I care to remember, among other ventures in my life that placed me in some not so nice places in this world. Shotgun to the head seemed to be the ugliest....just shy of a hit from a 50 cal.

[gtt416ex]

Originally posted by ben300
i would also rather take a badly placed shot from anything rahter than a well placed shot from anything..


your comparing apples to oranges...i could jsut as easly kill with a bow as a 22...

and, before they came otu with the electrified floor..they used to use 22's to kill animals and such....one shot to the fore head...at least at the meat processing place i used to work at..we would use a 22 because it would not exit the skull

and also..where have you seen all of these ppl who have been shot or commited suicide....do you take photo's for your county's coroner or something?

when you live in a small town that's full of geekers and drunks, you see alot of f***** up things. I didn't see him shoot himself, but i saw him at the funeral home, but one of my friends witnessed it.

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
Yes, a bow will kill, so will a pencil but thats not the subject matter being discussed.

and i was making and educated comment based on past experiences...all relevent when talking about penetration of projectiles

and do you reload 22LR or variants like 22-250 or 5.6x52 savage hp?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by ben300
and i was making and educated comment based on past experiences...all relevent when talking about penetration of projectiles

Well then, an arrow without a broadhead is less lethal then a 22 when neither makes contact with a vital organ or the brain. The arrow produces very little in the way of tissue damage around the arrow, is highly unlikely to fragment causing further tissue/organ damage and doesnt produce enough kenetic energy to cause a wound channel that would damage major blood vessels or organs (again, taking into consideration that the arrow doesnt puncture a vital organ or a major blood vessel) And this is assuming a standard field point has more frontal area then any 22 caliber round. Still apples and oranges or what?

I can go all night on this subject, let me know if you want more info:p

[slightlybent47]

It also depends if it was from a rifle or small pistol. I think it has a lot to do with circumstance. One guy gets shot with a .44 ten times in the chest and live and another get shot with a pellet gun and die.
One guy get stabbed 30 times with a butcher knife and survive and another get stabbed with a ice pick and die.
And I mean all vital wounds too but some survive and some don’t.
Same with a car wreck or motorcycle crash or how one person fall out of a five story building and not have a scratch and another just fall down and break a hip.

It still would be a blast to rip through 250 rounds of anything fully automatic. And being .22 it the cheapest round there is. And with almost no recoil the control should be exhalant.

[Pappy]

Incorrect.....

You are again adding assumptions and this is my point. Considering the arrow will out penatrate a 22(it will even out penetrate a 357) the arrow stands a better chance of passing completly through with no further tissue damage.(You assume it will not fully penetrate and will cause damage but this is not a garuntee. Animals are found all the time with everything from arrows to sticks impaled in their body with no appearant harm.

A cutting broadhead robs energy as you have stated but its leathality is in the hemmorging characteristics, and thats why comparing the two is not plasuable when comparing to a bullet) There is no expansion. The bullet will expand and may or may not fully penetrate. The higher KE doesnt equal more lethality.(again, we are saying if no vital organs are hit) I have NEVER in over 15 years of using carbon arrows had one splinter on impact, so I will have to assume you have seen this with regularity.

If you fill a 5 gallon bucket with sand, and fire an arrow and a 357, the arrow will penetrate the bucket and sand, the 357 will not. The energy is transfered to the sand from the bucket. The field point tipped arrow WILL out penetrate the pistol. So now we have a better penetration ratio that goes to the arrow but the leathality factor has not changed.

The sheer mechanics of how an arrow is designed to kill are 180 degrees from a bullets lethality in design. One kills from massive hemmoraging and the other uses KE, penetration and even fragmentation to kill. As far as the expandable broadheads, the KE doesnt factor in on how they operate. The KE will be absorbed after the broadhead has started to open and therefore doesnt require the energy to open, it is a mechanical operation that can work with a very low KE factor. It is more related to the speed of the arrow and that is what is used by the manufactures to dictate the success of that type of broadhead....very similiar to how hollowpoints work...drive them to slow and they fail to open by design....loss of KE would affect penetration not how the bullet operates seeing it will expand in tissue as KE is shed. Bullet speed just as arrow speed will dictate the outcome as to wether the expandable will effectively open on impact and KE will show the penetration

A baseball thrown at 95mph carries about the same KEas a standard bow and arrow(700 grain arrow/tip) yet you dont throw baseballs at a bull elk LOL.

I was actually trying to set you up but im having more fun this way....I was going to ask you who won, the cowboys or the indians LOL:blah:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by slightlybent47
It also depends if it was from a rifle or small pistol. I think it has a lot to do with circumstance. One guy gets shot with a .44 ten times in the chest and live and another get shot with a pellet gun and die.
One guy get stabbed 30 times with a butcher knife and survive and another get stabbed with a ice pick and die.
And I mean all vital wounds too but some survive and some don’t.
Same with a car wreck or motorcycle crash or how one person fall out of a five story building and not have a scratch and another just fall down and break a hip.

It still would be a blast to rip through 250 rounds of anything fully automatic. And being .22 it the cheapest round there is. And with almost no recoil the control should be exhalant.

Exactly, there are no absolutes!

We can debate this and that but there is no garuntee.

As far as the full auto 22's...they are fun. ive never fired the one in the video but have others that were converted and you cant have a better time on the cheap!

[Pappy]

Here is a miss by me that clipped her back (I was going for a spine shot) The Rage opened with merely a grazing shot. No KE was robbed or atleast no measurable amount absorbed to open the broadhead to cause the cut. The deer was killed 10 days later allowing me to examine the wound

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3176/2992734351_18f9ffed74_o.jpg

[Pappy]

This is the ENTRY wound on another deer. The Rage opened immediatley as the fur and skin show the signs of the blades. This was not a full pass through, broadside shot with a carbon arrow from my 60 lb DXT at roughly 11 yards. Thats the issue we have with the Rage ....not one shot has been a pass through but we can get pass throughs with the new 3 blade....


As far as lethality, there is no replacement for a broadhead equipped arrow. Ofcourse a firearm adds much more power, ease of control and can be fired much faster and further....but I think we would all agree that taking a hit like this would mean a bad day!


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3229/2968288474_5c9a4536a2_o.jpg

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
As far as the expandable broadheads, the KE doesnt factor in on how they operate. The KE will be absorbed after the broadhead has started to open and therefore doesnt require the energy to open, it is a mechanical operation that can work with a very low KE factor. It is more related to the speed of the arrow and that is what is used by the manufactures to dictate the success of that type of broadhead....very similiar to how hollowpoints work...drive them to slow and they fail to open by design....loss of KE would affect penetration not how the bullet operates seeing it will expand in tissue as KE is shed. Bullet speed just as arrow speed will dictate the outcome as to wether the expandable will effectively open on impact and KE will show the penetration

i was going to ask you if you did infact know everything, but there is flaws in this...

KE is very important in the mechanics of a broadhead and how an expandable broadhead works...

and am going to state this from experience...when i was sixteen i shot an 8 point buck the first monday of archery season here in pennsylvania...i was using a 60# hoyt defiant w/ a 27.5" draw...on top that i was using a a 29" easton acc 500 wiht a 100 grain rocket expandble breoad head, chisel tip, non cut on contact...now prior to this experience, i had shot nearly 15 deer with a mix of 100 thunder heads adn 125 steel force...i had always wanted to try and use expandables, even though my father had said that i did not have the kenetic energy to usse that style of broadhead....unpatiently i did not listen...

now, when i shot the buck, i know i made a excellent shot, which would be i the place of the x ring on a mckenzie full size standing buck target ...i know htis and was confident of my shot due to my success in competitive shooting up this this point....

when the buck ran way..about 2/3's of the arrow was stick out of the left side of teh buck( the side is hot into)...4 hours later we recovere the buck 200 yards away..teh broad head had jsut pierced the left lung of the buck...one of the blades did not even open...

the reason this did not work, was because I DID NOT HAVE enough KE to functionally cause the broad head to penetrate and open the blades at the same time..i needed more kenetic energy to functional work this broad head..

this is why cut on contac, and slip cam expandables like rage broadheads were invented..they require significanlty alot less kentic engerly because the cutting tip allows for more energy transfer to the expanding blades..

now i coudl have avoided this by shooting higher poundage, stiffer arrow like a 400 or 340 or or had used a heaver head..

this is why i currently use a steel force broadhead...they require significantly less KE than other heads beasue they are a cut on contact fixed, which allows me to shoot a lower poundage bow....


now onto arrows fragmenting...i have seen dozens of deer shot with carbon arrows that have broken inside the chest cavity of deer...including the last two that i have shot......i have also seen this happen with aluminums and carbons with aluminum incerts as well


pappy...im not trying to start and argument or say that you are wrong...because even though my family owns a fire arm dealership, i believe that you shoot more guns than i do, with the exception of shotguns for i competitively shoot skeet as welll....and i know the 22 is deadly or they wouuld not have based so many cernterfilre calibers off of it...

but i only tryign to say that...the shot from a bow...can be jsut as deadly as the shot of a 22...i wouldnt want to be shot by either...im jsut saying

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
This is the ENTRY wound on another deer. The Rage opened immediatley as the fur and skin show the signs of the blades. This was not a full pass through, broadside shot with a carbon arrow from my 60 lb DXT at roughly 11 yards. Thats the issue we have with the Rage ....not one shot has been a pass through but we can get pass throughs with the new 3 blade....


As far as lethality, there is no replacement for a broadhead equipped arrow. Ofcourse a firearm adds much more power, ease of control and can be fired much faster and further....but I think we would all agree that taking a hit like this would mean a bad day!



your right..a shot from a fire arm carries all of that energy to the body adn dissipates throught the body cavity with shockign force..


that is a big problme with rage broadheads.....not getting pass throughs...see you may not have enough kenetic energy fully use a mechanical broadhead....i shoot 60# max when hunting...infact i dont own a higher poundage bow...and im usign a eason full metal jacket to increase me KE and i still dont have enoguh KE to use one....

another problem with tthe rage broadheads is thast their blades tend to open during flight due to the slip cam design of the head itself...i have heard dozens of horror stories due to this problem...

the rage does leave a massive and i mean massive gapping wouldn trail but there is just inhearent flaws is in the flight of the head..

they're supposed to fligh like field points but they dotn..and that is evedent when paper tuning them, if you do do paper turning, which i do..

the other problem to is that your using a mathews...cant help ya there:blah: :devil:

[Pappy]

Ive explained how KE affects penetration. Ive shown where the Rage will open even when not making good contact so KE did not factor in it opening......but again, here we are discussing two different broadheads so its a whole new set of "what if's". One brand of expandable used the force of impact to drive the point back into the body which opened the blades. Problem with that was that if heavy muscle was hit combined with a low veloicty the muscle would actually force the blades back into the closed position. Retailers scrambled to sell higher speed bows and people followed along with it because in theroy it helped. Using crossbows at the time, we were able to test those heads and found almost no failures due to the crossbows higher velocity at the time as compared to the bows of that day. (higher velocity but lower KE due to lighter arrow weight)

The Shockwave and similiar broadheads use the passing through of the fur and skin to open the blades as they sweep back and expose the cutting portion of the blade. I bet ive killed 50 deer with them and all penetrated fully.

Now youre shot could have hit a rib on the way in, a limb on the way to the deer who knows, but I do know what your trying to say as I have seen it as well, but seeing it and guessing or assuming doesnt negate the math involved. We have to assume and when math is concerned usually the assumptions are figured out:p

I will state from expierence that the old blood trailers and other expandables were notorius for not opening, even in styrofoam. This is what has lead many to believe energy causes the expandables to open when it is velocity and the mechanical operation. They do not open after X amount of penetration, from my expierences (as shown as well) they open virtually immediatley and KE has no bearing on this. KE defines how much penetration one could expect (if you were so inclined to do the math...not me haha) Then again, we have to assume no ribs are hit, a shoulder wasnt hit etc....this furthers my point about you cant make claims that dont have enough science and math in them unless you are under controlled circumstances.

Example....I had 2 witnesses watch me shoot 2 different crop damage deer. 1 was just over 100 yards looking directly at me...I hit her with a 300 Ultra mag and she rolled down into the corn. We never found here but did find several pieces of skull the size of your thumb nail. I cant say the 300 ultra Mag sucks because of this...because I cant tell you where the bullet struck. We think it struck between the eyes but the energy shattered the skull and the bullet rose at an angle and never actually penetrated...which is pretty crazy.

2nd was at 340 yards. Deer was broadside. I made my adjustments and firing from a prone position shot her in the head. This was with a 22-250. She ran off:eek2: The next night the farmer killed her and after getting to her realized it was the same deer from the previous night. The bullet failed to open and drilled a nice 22 caliber hole just below her eye and straight out the other side just missing her lower brain cavity. Again, can I state that head shooting something is non leathal:p When it comes to bullets and killing something, anything and everything is possible but not always probable.

And for the record......if I posted how many deer ive killed in my lifetime you wouldnt believe me:p Ive done crop damage for the past 20 years for folks. This is what got me into studying ballistics, reloading and studying wounds. I am no expert nor do I know it all, I just love discussing it!

And I want on your good side, never know when I might need a deal on anew rifle:blah:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by ben300

that is a big problme with rage broadheads.....not getting pass throughs...see you may not have enough kenetic energy fully use a mechanical broadhead....i shoot 60# max when hunting...infact i dont own a higher poundage bow...and im usign a eason full metal jacket to increase me KE and i still dont have enoguh KE to use one....


The 3 blades no issues so far....I havent personally been able to use them this season but I know of 9 deer killed on the farm with them that were complete pass throughs even an off side shoulder pass through. This is with the same poundage, same arrows I use and pretty close on the draw length as well, but its a Hoyt.

The Showckwaves as I posted above have done the job at 60 pounds for years and are 1/3 the price:blah:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by ben300
your right..a shot from a fire arm carries all of that energy to the body adn dissipates throught the body cavity with shockign force..


Actually, there is no scientific data to back that claim up. There are studies that show that certain calibers should have higher knock down power but when compared to the FBI studies on one shot stops it showed the data to be unreliable. 45 Ball ammo still has the highest rating even when compared to better bullet design and high velocity calibers. This stuff can make your head spin haha!

As far as wound channels, ballistic gel sure looks cool and wicked when you look at it and think what that does to you when a bullet travels, but science shows that the wounding channel of most all pistol calibers does very little damage around the bullets path. I find that hard to believe but the studies are out there to prove it:p This is one reason I think many defense people and even PD's are trying to use frangibles.

slightlybent said a mouthful in regards to rifle versus pistol. I will add to that what a senior tac officer told me one time....."If you know your in for a gun fight, keep the pistol in your holster and get a real gun" LMAO!

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
Ive explained how KE affects penetration. Ive shown where the Rage will open even when not making good contact so KE did not factor in it opening......but again, here we are discussing two different broadheads so its a whole new set of "what if's". One brand of expandable used the force of impact to drive the point back into the body which opened the blades. Problem with that was that if heavy muscle was hit combined with a low veloicty the muscle would actually force the blades back into the closed position. Retailers scrambled to sell higher speed bows and people followed along with it because in theroy it helped. Using crossbows at the time, we were able to test those heads and found almost no failures due to the crossbows higher velocity at the time as compared to the bows of that day.

The Shockwave and similiar broadheads use the passing through of the fur and skin to open the blades as they sweep back and expose the cutting portion of the blade. I bet ive killed 50 deer with them and all penetrated fully.

Now youre shot could have hit a rib on the way in, a limb on the way to the deer who knows, but I do know what your trying to say as I have seen it as well, but seeing it and guessing or assuming doesnt negate the math involved. We have to assume and when math is concerned usually the assumptions are figured out:p

I will state from expierence that the old blood trailers and other expandables were notorius for not opening, even in styrofoam. This is what has lead many to believe energy causes the expandables to open when it is velocity and the mechanical operation. They do not open after X amount of penetration, from my expierences (as shown as well) they open virtually immediatley and KE has no bearing on this. KE defines how much penetration one could expect (if you were so inclined to do the math...not me haha) Then again, we have to assume no ribs are hit, a shoulder wasnt hit etc....this furthers my point about you cant make claims that dont have enough science and math in them unless you are under controlled circumstances.

Example....I had 2 witnesses watch me shoot 2 different crop damage deer. 1 was just over 100 yards looking directly at me...I hit her with a 300 Ultra mag and she rolled down into the corn. We never found here but did find several pieces of skull the size of your thumb nail. I cant say the 300 ultra Mag sucks because of this...because I cant tell you where the bullet struck. We think it struck between the eyes but the energy shattered the skull and the bullet rose at an angle and never actually penetrated...which is pretty crazy.

2nd was at 340 yards. Deer was broadside. I made my adjustments and firing from a prone position shot her in the head. This was with a 22-250. She ran off:eek2: The next night the farmer killed her and after getting to her realized it was the same deer from the previous night. The bullet failed to open and drilled a nice 22 caliber hole just below her eye and straight out the other side just missing her lower brain cavity. Again, can I state that head shooting something is non leathal:p When it comes to bullets and killing something, anything and everything is possible but not always probable.

And for the record......if I posted how many deer ive killed in my lifetime you wouldnt believe me:p Ive done crop damage for the past 20 years for folks. This is what got me into studying ballistics, reloading and studying wounds. I am no expert nor do I know it all, I just love discussing it!

And I want on your good side, never know when I might need a deal on anew rifle:blah:

well i can get you an excellent deal on jsut about any rifle out there....handguns..thats a differetn story..PA does not allow out of staters to purchase handguns...well that adn benelli is giving us fits about selling their junk because there's two other dealers with in 20 miles....thats ok tho cause we're a remington direct dealer and we're pretty loyal to them..

but anywho...ya when you start figuring your KE wiht arrows adn how many grains/inch and letting that dictate your equipment, you've become an archery geek like us.....liek ive said...my family has been competitive shooting since before i was born...we're super precise in setting up and tuning our equipment....we chrony all of our arrows and tst different broadheads and different fletch styles to get the best turn afor accuracy...,

and when i shot that buck i shot him in the open in from a tree next to a corn field...i may have hit a rib but after we examined, i dont think i did....i jsut think that my draw length and poundage did not generate the enregy for penetration...now if i had been using a steelforce....ya id of had no problem, cause my brother has shot deer at 30 yards and 45# draw when he was younger with steelforce and had not problems at all....i currently use old school muzzy 3 blades caue they fly good, are cheap as hell, adn wheni bought them...michael waddell was usign them adn i think he's the **** so....



the rage heads seem not to fly as good with the higher speed bows due to such a harsh shot...but all that speed is marketing hype and is not neccessary...its just like when everyoen though they had to have a sumb 32" axle to axle bow....i jsut like to be comfortable hwen i shoot my bow..

... id love to come down there to dub v and hunt some of those crop damage deer with you and your boys...the game commison wiht there inssuing of nearly unlimited doe tags has really hurt the PA deer herd in my opinion...i jsut wanna go back to the days when i coudl go out in archery seaso and see 20+ deer a night and coudl shoot w/e....

[ben300]

...oh and the shock wave broadheads....never used them..but ive heard good things of them

[Pappy]

We shoot them in MD. One farm was issued unlimited kills for almost 5 years straight. It was nothing to have over 100 deer in front of you any given evening. Absolutley run over with deer. Ive done work in neighborhoods, golf courses...fun stuff. How do you think I learned how to make my own jerky and such..had to:D

My next rifle will either be a remington RL25 in 308 or another VTR in 223...leaning towards the VTR to match mine in 308

Then after seeing the video I may have to build a few 22's....ammo is outragous even with doing my own loading. Id like to look into Savages 22 that is in the link I posted, looks pretty sweet. My days of blowing through a few thousand rounds are over for the most part but I wouldnt mind setting up a few tactical 22's:devil:

Hell i bought a CASE of shockwaves a while back! They worked so well. We had deer that after several years of crop damage just knew where you were and forced us to use crossbows so that movement was limited and where a firearm couldnt be used. Ive head shot deer, cleaned the broadhead and reused it several times....and you cant beat the price when compared to a Rage. $40 for 3 is insane!

[ben300]

i think my next rifle purchase is gonna be 308 700 vtr-desert recon.....i just like the look of the cammo....i was gonna buy it for small game, more so as my "sniper rifle" for shooting coyotes with my brother...i dont really need a 308...but i just want one....

[Pappy]

Mine shoots very well. I sighted it in with rounds I have loaded for my M14 and it was shooting sub MOA at 200 yards. I either got real lucky or was just shooting mighty fine that day:p Its to expensive to play these days so unless I have a need to shoot real far with it, these will do on deer or whatever out to 600.

I have a Rem 700 Sendero in 223 that is a tack driver. Its my ground hog gun. Now that I live here in WV, I intend to do my best to smoke some Yotes and need something a bit lighter and faster handling then the Sendero....and something that you can put in an atv gun scabbard or fit into a SxS, I think the VTR will work perfect.

Get me a price on one when ya can....

[ben300]

i think my next rifle purchase is gonna be 308 700 vtr-desert recon.....i just like the look of the cammo....i was gonna buy it for small game, more so as my "sniper rifle" for shooting coyotes with my brother...i dont really need a 308...but i just want one....i'll probbly mate it up iwth leupold vx-3 6.5x32x50mm tatical scope..

either that or im gonna go all balls out and buy a berreta 682 xs sporting for skeet....

i havent reallly made up my mind yet...i was contemplating a xdm .40, casue we dotn have one...but i dunno...

we do alot of land management on the properties we own and hunt on...food plots and such...we jsut dont really shoot any does..we leave that for little kids if we want to bring them there in rifle season....

im just tired if not being able to shoot w/e anymore...i ddint get anything this year or last year...last year i didnt get otu much with school but this year..i just coudlnt get a shooter buck infront of me..the one taht i did....i goofed up and he caught me drawing back

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
Mine shoots very well. I sighted it in with rounds I have loaded for my M14 and it was shooting sub MOA at 200 yards. I either got real lucky or was just shooting mighty fine that day:p Its to expensive to play these days so unless I have a need to shoot real far with it, these will do on deer or whatever out to 600.

I have a Rem 700 Sendero in 223 that is a tack driver. Its my ground hog gun. Now that I live here in WV, I intend to do my best to smoke some Yotes and need something a bit lighter and faster handling then the Sendero....and something that you can put in an atv gun scabbard or fit into a SxS, I think the VTR will work perfect.

Get me a price on one when ya can....

ya..vtr..good gun...

i can get on that price for ya...and i dont know why my computer keeps on submitting half my post then the full post...i hate technology at times...

[Pappy]

Originally posted by ben300
i just coudlnt get a shooter buck infront of me..the one taht i did....i goofed up and he caught me drawing back

I got more on film this year then in the freezer, but we will crop damage in january so the freezer will get filled:p

I hunted a TON this year and did not have one shooter buck in front of me with bow or rifle. Honestly i wasnt even really that concerned......I geuss I am at the point now where I enjoy just being in the woods and dont really want to shoot anything that isnt what I feel is a respectable buck. God I sound old haha!

I have a few buds that are slowing down in their life and want to hunt more so I look forward to that more then just the killing. I do what I have to to feed the family as we still depend on it but the importance of making a kill just isnt there or isnt as strong as it used to be. I was pretty hyped up to kill a bear last week though:p

Btw...anyone wanting info on 22's...search ruger 10/22 and such. Ive seen quad mounted units:huh Some of those folks are plain batty with what they come up with to turn a plinker into a tin can assasin!

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
I got more on film this year then in the freezer, but we will crop damage in january so the freezer will get filled:p

I hunted a TON this year and did not have one shooter buck in front of me with bow or rifle. Honestly i wasnt even really that concerned......I geuss I am at the point now where I enjoy just being in the woods and dont really want to shoot anything that isnt what I feel is a respectable buck. God I sound old haha!

I have a few buds that are slowing down in their life and want to hunt more so I look forward to that more then just the killing. I do what I have to to feed the family as we still depend on it but the importance of making a kill just isnt there or isnt as strong as it used to be. I was pretty hyped up to kill a bear last week though:p

Btw...anyone wanting info on 22's...search ruger 10/22 and such. Ive seen quad mounted units:huh Some of those folks are plain batty with what they come up with to turn a plinker into a tin can assasin!

ya we film a vast majority of out hunts...we got ltos of bucks on film..but not much in close enough or in the clear enough for shots...

there are times when i whish i could jsut some tiems shoot the animal...take a picture with it..and then let it go...

[Pappy]

While your price checking, see what a replacement bolt assembly (complete) will cost me for a Remington 700 LSS Mountain Rifle in 30/06 so i can replace the one I broke:chinese:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by ben300


there are times when i whish i could jsut some tiems shoot the animal...take a picture with it..and then let it go...

I do my best to make that happen haha

http://kenhill.smugmug.com/photos/736800529_jQMsa-L.jpg

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
I got more on film this year then in the freezer, but we will crop damage in january so the freezer will get filled:p

I hunted a TON this year and did not have one shooter buck in front of me with bow or rifle. Honestly i wasnt even really that concerned......I geuss I am at the point now where I enjoy just being in the woods and dont really want to shoot anything that isnt what I feel is a respectable buck. God I sound old haha!

I have a few buds that are slowing down in their life and want to hunt more so I look forward to that more then just the killing. I do what I have to to feed the family as we still depend on it but the importance of making a kill just isnt there or isnt as strong as it used to be. I was pretty hyped up to kill a bear last week though:p

Btw...anyone wanting info on 22's...search ruger 10/22 and such. Ive seen quad mounted units:huh Some of those folks are plain batty with what they come up with to turn a plinker into a tin can assasin!

ya we film a vast majority of out hunts...we got ltos of bucks on film..but not much in close enough or in the clear enough for shots...



i guess one of the primary reasons for my poor luck this year would be due to the ammount of goose and duck hunting we did this year...


10/22 are a nice gun....another reallly nice 22 is the browning t bolt...we have one in our safe that a guy ordered for his kid and never picked up and its a really really nice little gun...fine craftsmanship...just a bit on the expensive side

[ben300]

Originally posted by Pappy
While your price checking, see what a replacement bolt assembly (complete) will cost me for a Remington 700 LSS Mountain Rifle in 30/06 so i can replace the one I broke:chinese:

haha..i dont wanna know how...but ill chec forya...i wanna say its 250 plus..

and you'd never be able to get that close to a doe or a buck in nw pa....they see ya...they're gone

[Pappy]

Originally posted by ben300
haha..i dont wanna know how...but ill chec forya...i wanna say its 250 plus..


thats what i figured:p midway has them for 300 with the sako extractor, but I dont know if I feel like dickin around with having to have the chamber worked etc etc for the new bolt....damn near cheaper to replace the rifle!!! I also will have to see if I can have the bolt handle rewelded to the bolt....

hell I might just set this one in the gun cabinet and use it as a reminder NOT to be a dumbass no matter if a bear is coming and the gun is jammed:chinese: :p

Might just build a new rifle off it:p

[ben300]

my brother is all about buiding himself a custom 22-250 from the ground up...he jsut can afford it since he's going off to college next year

[rbgnwa45]

That gun is sick, it looks very illegal. I like the archangel AR15-22 but they're all kind of pointless to have except for home defence, in that case I'd rather have that than a shotgun.

I thought about getting a bolt action tube fed .22 that fires LR, L, and shorts but don't have the money for a licence. I think it was a Ruger. I had my eye on one with blue steel and polymer crap but I forget the model. Anything in bolt action that doesn't rust or jam is fine with me.

Thought this was cool, saw it awhile ago, no need for a silencer although they can apparently get snappy after the sound barrier and I don't think you need a gun licence (Canada anyways). Comes in .177 and .22 (which I can't find but is on google?), they have a whole bunch of models.

http://www.hunterextreme.com/
http://www.gamousa.com/rifles.aspx

-Velocity: 1600 feet per second (fps) with PBA, 1250 fps with Lead
-Single Shot
-Break Barrel: Single Cocking System
-Automatic Cocking Safety system
-Barrel: Jacketed steel bull barrel
-Cocking Effort: 58 lbs for .177 & 65 lbs for .22
-Trigger: Second Stage adjustable
-Manual Safety
-Weight: 9 lbs
-Length: 48.5’’
-Ammunition: Any .177 Pellet
-Caliber: .177
-Trigger Pull: 3.74 lbs
-Barrel Lenght: 18 in
-Scope Ramp: Grooved Rail
-Scope: 3-9x50 Illuminated center Mil dot Reticle
-One piece solid mount
-Stock: Fine selected grade of beech hardwood
-Butt Plate: Ventilated rubber pad for recoil absorption
-Cheekpiece: Raised Montecarlo
-Checkering: Laser Engraved

"... I shot a dove off a Powerline at 35 yards and the pellet went straight through the bird."

The other models are 1200 feet per second (fps) with PBA and around 30lbs cocking effort, 800 FPS & 24lbs. Trigger pull is 3+ lbs though. The "whisper" has a "non-removable noise dampener reduce the noise up to 52%!". One of the 1000 FPS guns are only $199. They even have pre-charged pneumatic rifles so you don't have to spend $20 for 5 C02s that last 10 minutes.

I've had a .22 pellet, .177/12-rd clip/C02 which was the worst, and my last .177 was a czetch or something, it was heavier than a shotgun, had a horrible iron sight with no scope grooves, and was only 395 FPS. I stopped shooting birds at 15 feet when I was 12, I got about 5 total. Don't buy c02 pellet guns that have a trigger pull of 2+ inches and like 5lbs (revolving clip).

So how far would that 1600 FPS pellet travel before you can't group? Sure it has to do with the weight of the projectile but at 1600 wouldn't it even out a bit compared to a .22LR? Should I just get a .22LR?

[rbgnwa45]

Can someone tell me how pneumatic air rifles work? Do you hook it up to an air compressor in your garage and check it with a pressure gauge (built in?) or do you have to go to walmart for a refill? That'd suck cuz it's still the same so I'm assuming you hook it up to an air compressor. Approx. how many shots do you think you'll get between refills? Gamo doesn't say and their pneumatic .177 is a 10-rd clip with floating barrel and scope for around $700, it looks insane. At $25 per box of C02 (and you get like 4-6), $700 is 28 boxes, that's about 1 box per week, so in a year or two the expensive pellet gun is paid for. I really hate C02. If the pneumatic works off air pressure will the FPS lower as you use it up? On the C02 gun I had, after 60 shots the pellet went about 5 feet.

[rbgnwa45]

For $350 you get 1000 FPS, laser sight, flashlight, 3-9x40 scope, noise dampener, and a tacticalish stock. Not bad.

http://www.gamousa.com/images/rifles/product_socom_tactical.jpg

[tri5ron]

my next air rifle...
Santa ????

http://www.airforceairguns.com/condor.html