The Future of ATV Motocross [Archive]

TNT

11-29-2009, 07:04 AM

I think the biggest thing holding us back is #s. A lot of the above is solved with more #s, eg. spectators, tv, advertising, sponsors, etc….Although we have come a long way w/ ’race ready”, the cost of a new quad to bike is 3x’s. …that’s why they out # us 3x+….cost to maintain it and modify it for racing is 3x’s, due to supply and low demand in our after-market atv industry our parts and service is expensive.

We need to keep producing cost efficient race ready designs, everything rolls down hill from the OEM design….the days of expensive hybrids do not work in this economy. Also offering am race programs as Can am started, and contingency programs at all levels. OEMs need to work closely with after-market companies to offer “race mod kits”, such as can-am did with Motoworks and their amateur racer support program. The kits not only make the race quad more affordable but more reliable vs ams purchasing hybrid that may not be correct for the quad and unreliable, less maintenance cost will help the am stay in the sport.

Here’s another one, national a-class and pro-am level racers get involved with your dealerships offer racing schools(racing and mechanics) to train newbies right so they don’t get hurt and quit. You can pick up a sponsorship that way and help the industry, make some $ while your at it.

quad2xtreme

11-29-2009, 08:40 AM

Racing is and always has been a rich man's sport. Subsidizing racers isn't going to get people to watch. I don't think the issue is with not having enough quality racers. More racers only marginally increases the fan base. What I mean by this is you can't grow a sport by having family and friends in the stands...it takes a whole lot more than that. It takes a fan base to catch the eyes of advertisers...not the other way around. It is very rare to find an advertiser who thinks they found an untapped market and are going to invest in it and make it grow...doesn't happen that way in corporate America (there would have to be major guarantees in place that they get a return on the investment once they succeed in growing the fan base). WPSA tried it to a point but really didn't have the funding. I know plenty of people who ride who think watching quad races is boring. I flag for races and can tell you that bikes are way more exciting to watch...and this is coming from a quad guy.

Catch 22...you need advertising to grow the fan base but you need a fan base to draw in advertisers. Personally, I think quad racing has had plenty of time to catch on. IMO, the future of ATV motocross is being a Tier 3 sport forever...there are lots of them so it is in good company.

TNT

11-29-2009, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
Racing is and always has been a rich man's sport. Subsidizing racers isn't going to get people to watch. I don't think the issue is with not having enough quality racers. More racers only marginally increases the fan base. What I mean by this is you can't grow a sport by having family and friends in the stands...it takes a whole lot more than that. It takes a fan base to catch the eyes of advertisers...not the other way around. It is very rare to find an advertiser who thinks they found an untapped market and are going to invest in it and make it grow...doesn't happen that way in corporate America (there would have to be major guarantees in place that they get a return on the investment once they succeed in growing the fan base). WPSA tried it to a point but really didn't have the funding. I know plenty of people who ride who think watching quad races is boring. I flag for races and can tell you that bikes are way more exciting to watch...and this is coming from a quad guy.

Catch 22...you need advertising to grow the fan base but you need a fan base to draw in advertisers. Personally, I think quad racing has had plenty of time to catch on. IMO, the future of ATV motocross is being a Tier 3 sport forever...there are lots of them so it is in good company.

Those are some good points, I'm not a business man but don't you think IF you can estabish of fan/base of family and friends, a support network in the stands that in itself is "advertisiing", to a potential company such as WPSA who is willing to take the risk. Also to estabish that appealing fan base cost efficent designs/products won't hurt?

Haulinbass

11-29-2009, 09:35 AM

Mx and supercross was big in the 90s when it was fresh, It died off a bit untill the freestyle thing got bigger than crusty demons of dirt. the Xgames and freestyle brought dirtbikes back in the spotlight
You want ATV racing to be big get it in the Xgames, or have someone that really pushes the sport in the freestyle department. And im not talking dirtbike tricks people were doing six years ago. Backflips stopped being exciting to fans, they see dirtbikes and sleds doing double backs and underflips. hell a kid in my town can flip with his old beat 125.

TNT

11-29-2009, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Haulinbass
Mx and supercross was big in the 90s when it was fresh, It died off a bit untill the freestyle thing got bigger than crusty demons of dirt. the Xgames and freestyle brought dirtbikes back in the spotlight
You want ATV racing to be big get it in the Xgames, or have someone that really pushes the sport in the freestyle department. And im not talking dirtbike tricks people were doing six years ago. Backflips stopped being exciting to fans, they see dirtbikes and sleds doing double backs and underflips. hell a kid in my town can flip with his old beat 125.

I agree and they should put more of that and the MX/GNCC nationals. I hate to admit but I get bored waiting for my sons and the pro race and everyone we have ever took to nats that know nothing about the sport get bored. We have to have more spectator freindly events. I like the golf cart parades and rides for the kids and concert on Sat night really help imo. :D

TrapZ400

11-29-2009, 10:57 AM

Originally posted by CADWELL
All good points...

I always preached to myself that a Supercross series like the DB's have would REALLY help which would then bring TV coverage and then I think it would take off from there.

Manufacture commercials showcasing quads on a Motocross track would be a big plus as far as getting more people to try it.

I can't remember when's the last time I saw Byrd in a Honda or Wimmer in a Suzuki commercial advertising their own product, all I usaully see is a Hunter on a Camo quad or a Rancher at a farm riding a quad in their commercials.
All good points we do need the atv pros in the commercials showcasing what the quads are capable of.

I have seen Gust and Wimmer in a suzuki commercial and Dustin Nelson is in the new yamaha commercials.

You guys remember this commercial? It would be great if we can get more commercials like it.
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quad2xtreme

11-29-2009, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Those are some good points, I'm not a business man but don't you think IF you can estabish of fan/base of family and friends, a support network in the stands that in itself is "advertisiing", to a potential company such as WPSA who is willing to take the risk. Also to estabish that appealing fan base cost efficent designs/products won't hurt?

I don't have the answers for sure...in fact, I am not sure there is an answer. I know it is a job I wouldn't want (being the guy to figure out how to turn ATV MX into something more).

Adding 100 racers to a given local event would drive say 300-400 more fans...not enough of a difference IMO. Even if you added 400 racers to a National and added 2,000 family and friends fans...not enough. I've gone to several quad Nationals. It isn't hard to get a spot to stand. I can generally take the camera and walk right up to the fence in many areas...even good spots.

Growing the ATV scene to match dirt bikes just isn't going to happen. There are too many tracks that won't even allow quads to practice except on a race day.

The real bad news is the WPSA folding. Somebody put in tons of work to get that far and it tanked. That will make the next person(s) that much more reluctant.

I'm just being realistic based on the title of the thread. IMO, future of ATV MX is pretty much what it is right now...if not some decline.

quad2xtreme

11-29-2009, 12:03 PM

nobody knows who Wimmer, Natalie, Byrd except for fans.

You would do better to have true celebrities talking about how much fun they have riding quads.

TrapZ400

11-29-2009, 01:11 PM

What would really help quads in general would be to get an atvmx pro or an atv freestyle pro on mtvs nitro circus. The nitro circus became huge when they got on tv. Before they got on tv the only people who knew about the nitro circus were the diehard motocross community and know pretty much everyone knows the nitro circus. A lot of people that arent really into mx watch it and most of them didnt even know that they had a bunch of movies before they got on tv.

Atv racing is a hard sport to get more people into it. Its not like the bikes were you can have a lightly modified bike and be some what competitive. But in the novice class you pretty much need a heavily modified quad to be competitive. Thats how it is in my local series.

reconmaster

11-29-2009, 01:34 PM

like stated above getting A class, Pro-am, Womens Pro-AM, and Pro-AM to sign posters at dealers, offer riding schools, try to get onto local cable and radio stations. Put quad site adds on other websites like we have here. Since Chad Wienen is sposnored by Monster and Dustin Wimmer is sponsored by RedBull hopefully they will use them in there displays at stores. Can-AM uses thier racers in there commercials you may not notice as easily. I know GNCCs were on Speed at one time. With Jason Wiengandt doing both and quad bike coverage hopefully he'll start pitching quad advertizements to tv channels to potentially air races. Promoters should be posting posters, radio and tv ads as much as possible if they currently aren't. You would be suprised in our area most people only come to see 50's there friends on dbs, the pros and the quads. the average spectator has a 4x4 in there garage not a sport quad or db or chances are they would be racing (a friend of mine and i analyzed this once)..we do need some outside sponsors..i know beer is out the window since motorsports don't associate with them but we could try verizon, sprint, amped, gatorade or monster since they seem to sponsor alot of mx series. hopefully someone in the atv mx division has a silver tongue and is good with p/r relations

CADWELL

11-29-2009, 01:41 PM

Don't know about you guys, but I really enjoy watching the Montreal ATV supercross, it's action packed!

I think seeing 4 wheels off the ground the majority of a given supercross lap instead of 2 can be more exciting and a US ATV Supercross series would give us that....more excitement.

At this point I think that is the key to make sport ATV's more appealling.

KingpinsEx

11-29-2009, 03:27 PM

I have read alot of good things and alot of bad things in this thread and it's something I have been thinking about for a long time. For those of you who feel it can't hit the big time, com'on, we are or were closer than ever before. With nearly every factory selling mx race-ready atvs how can it be so far fetched. I think if the WPSA's would have continued quads would have really taken off. Look at all the factories and big sponsors that jumped in, they took a risk but not getting a solid tv package is forcing the factories back out.

This is ridiclous, how can anyone say atv mx racing is not exciting. **** they have fishing and lawnmower racing on national tv, it CAN BE DONE. Seeing a quad jump an 85ft thriple beats a DB anyday. Plus quad racing is way more exciting due to all the talent in the pro class. You watch a major DB race it is usually the same guy winning every race or at least within a couple. Honestly its anyones ballgame when it comes to atvs.

I can see where you guys are coming from about the national attendance being sad, but that is expected. I am a racer myself and I get bored at both atv and DB nationals. That is why a tv package is so appealing, you arent stuck there all day and can watch just the pros/pro am in half an hour.

The freestyle is just another neglected segment of our sport. Just like motocross racing, freestyle is right there with the DB and does not get ANY recognition. How are they not yet in the X-Games and snowmobiles are? I watched the sleds last year and quads are doing way more advanced tricks and honestly I think flipping and atv is way more extreme than doing it on a DB. You watch the original X-games when DB were first introduced and it is sad by todays standards. No one was flipping back then, now there are at least 5 guys regularly flipping quads, a few with other trick variations to boot! So how is that not worthy of the X-games? We are right on the verge, the sport does not need to be developed anymore, it just needs a chance to get out there...

TNT

11-29-2009, 04:24 PM

WPSA could not get the tv rating’s up, they were never up, nor could ATVA. A tv rating for the kids that don’t know is how many numbers watch when aired. Actually that Miller Time commercial probably seen the most in history on national TV, I have seen it during prime time in KS. We tried to rally SPEED to air atv's w/little success.

Seems to me utube and the internet is growing beyond believe and as many watch it than tv. I don’t even watch tv any more, utube is commercial free..lol!

WPSA failed as a result of a prime investor that backed out, that investor had an opportunity to pick up the business for cents on the dollar in bankruptcy but did not.

I think if you look back 20 years ago you can definitely see growth, lots! But slow. I don’t understand AMA/ATVA running the same tracks since then, but they got a business to run so what do I know about that business so I guess I understand. Good to see something new and expansions in MN in the 2010 schedule. I think these races do alot for the local industries, advertising, networking friends telling friends, etc.....without them and public am/pro racing the sport would not grow.

Lots of factors that effect growth, economy did not help, also the way we are structured with all these series across the US that have no synergy, I wonder if it couldn’t be better regardless of our numbers. We don’t need AMA/ie: WPSA battles or east side west side imo we need more alliances, merging, to centralized regional qualifying that reduces travel expenses......HLR out of MO has the right idea, good ol Jason just lacks the funds to stand alone and do it properly.

My .02.

reconmaster

11-29-2009, 04:46 PM

Good points Terry just when I was listening to the radio on my way to redbud and unadilla I don't think I heard an ad but for one of the New Brunswick stations when riverglade hostts a race theres an ad almost every 2 hours... maybe i wasn't listening to the right station i know john was signin autographs at the local wally world for unadilla but we need to do that stuff all the time in small towns and big cities..just my thoughts

mx8

11-29-2009, 05:14 PM

I raced MX from 1995 to 2000. I raced all the local races and all the motocross nationals. I still read dirt wheels and keep up with whats going on in the atv world. And all I can say is nothing has changed over the years. Yes the quads have changed but thats about it. Look how long it took for that to happen, the old 250r was a great running quad but way out of date compared to the dirtbikes. I love riding atv's but where you see atv racing now is where your see it in 30 years. Back in the day the pros ran stock shocks, a arms etc. Why don't ATV racing cut down on cost change the rules so everybody runs a stock motor, a arms, etc. Then how many more people would give it a try. Wow buy a 450r from the dealer maybe change the tires and wheels and go to the nationals and not have to worry about the guy beside you having a 25,000 dollar quad and getting smoked off the line. :cool:

2to4

11-29-2009, 05:20 PM

i think the x-games would help the sport a ton. look at rally cars i dont know one person who has a rally car and to be honest i have no clue how anyone would get into the sport and iv never seen a rally anywhere near me. but yet rally cars is one of the top events in the x games. i know a ton of people with quads and follow the sport to a certain degree but i know twice the amount ofpeople who would watch it if it was in the x games. i think the sport would explode after a year or two in the x-games. we would get tons of sponsers and more tv coverage and a much bigger fan base. we just need some people to realy push to get the sport into the x-games. mx and fmx are prob the most popular events in the x-games. get some quads out there and we have a big sport. to be honest the x-games got me into mx which got me into quads so im sure it'll definetly bring some more people into our sport

Haulinbass

11-29-2009, 05:30 PM

No quad will ever be as exciting as a sled(snowmobile), you cant compete with 160+hp two stroke sleds, they are faster than any production car, will outjump any dirtbike. guys are doing double backs, underflips and all the basic db tricks on a 600+lb sled. And these are the same guys who race snowcross regularly.

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ATVs are cool but comparing them to a sled is silly

Haulinbass

11-29-2009, 05:48 PM

last one
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TrapZ400

11-29-2009, 06:00 PM

I wish the energy drink companies would do more for the atv riders. They do sponsor a bunch of riders but it doesnt seem like they try to promote their riders a lot. Rockstar does have dustin and doug on their site. Thats good but they didnt put anything up on the main page of the site congratulating dustin and borich for winning the championships. Redbull didnt do anything for dustin when he rode for them and won the championship. Maybe they gave him more money or something. I dont really know how the energy drink sponsors work but you would think that they would put something up on their site congratulating him. The energy drink companies promote all their other athletes like craZy but they dont do it for the atv riders. Every time you go on their sites it says "congrats to so-and-so on winning something". Why dont they do that for the atv riders? it pisses me off. Same thing for chad when he won the montreal supercross, monster didnt put out anything on their site about it. Like I said before if it was a dirtbike rider, skater, or bmxer that won an event they would be plastered all over the site.

BuB400

11-29-2009, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by mx8
Back in the day the pros ran stock shocks, a arms etc. Why don't ATV racing cut down on cost change the rules so everybody runs a stock motor, a arms, etc. Then how many more people would give it a try. Wow buy a 450r from the dealer maybe change the tires and wheels and go to the nationals and not have to worry about the guy beside you having a 25,000 dollar quad and getting smoked off the line. :cool:

I myself would race if that would happen, and I think alot of other people would to. Alot of people have the skills, just not the wallet it takes to race.

reconmaster

11-29-2009, 06:41 PM

speaking of the x games they might be commin to montreal..if they are i'm gonna try to get ahold of the ppl at adaptive action sports to see if i can get in to the adaptive moto x race.....

motohanks

11-29-2009, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by BuB400
I myself would race if that would happen, and I think alot of other people would to. Alot of people have the skills, just not the wallet it takes to race.
Some series do have a stock class. NEATV has a class where you have to use stock suspension, exhaust, intake, etc. I raced in this class the past two years because it was a good way to get into the sport without spending a ton of money. I don't see a need to change the rules in the other classes to make racing cheaper, there should just be a "stock" class too.

JParisi48

11-29-2009, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by motohanks
Some series do have a stock class. NEATV has a class where you have to use stock suspension, exhaust, intake, etc. I raced in this class the past two years because it was a good way to get into the sport without spending a ton of money. I don't see a need to change the rules in the other classes to make racing cheaper, there should just be a "stock" class too.

thats what i did at neatv, i raced with him last year and it was fun, as long as there are stock classes for different skill levels its fine, like neatv has prod c and prod b, they are good classes to get into racing or just for fun.....congrats on the championship:cool:

motohanks

11-29-2009, 07:36 PM

Originally posted by JParisi48
thats what i did at neatv, i raced with him last year and it was fun, as long as there are stock classes for different skill levels its fine, like neatv has prod c and prod b, they are good classes to get into racing or just for fun.....congrats on the championship:cool:
thanks Joe,
one thing about the neatv production class that I don't necessarily agree with is allowing certain brands to use an aftermarket exhaust and not others just because it came as part of a rider support program. We were fortunate that nobody with a Can-Am and motoworks exhaust ran the C class with us since the contingency was in production b and not production c.

FHKracingZ

11-29-2009, 08:38 PM

I think the stock class idea for pros is a horrible idea. The back bone of atv motocross is the aftermarket companies. Without them backing riders there is no racing. Factories are in racing for one reason, money. Aftermarket companies are in it because thats what they do and love.

Another reason would be injuries. You put pros out there on stock machines and they would be injuring themselves faster then you can think.

At the end of the day any type of motorsport is just plain exspensive. Cars, quads, go carts, they are all outrageous to be competitive with racing. Thats just how it is.

blacknblue#2

11-30-2009, 09:21 AM

makin the rules where ppl have to run stock is a horrible idea and will make no difference. The bikes are no where near stock so why should us quad guys have to sacrifice.

motofreak2772

11-30-2009, 12:26 PM

Quads on fuel tv is the answer(mtv and stuff like that will come after). Thats how we get fans(not just family and friends). Then we need a SX series like suggested above, so the fans can easily access these events to see the riders. Our freestyle department is a whole other story, they need the x games, gravity games, or dew tour to pick them up. If that doesnt happen then we either need to make a new contest which I doubt will catch on.

quad2xtreme

11-30-2009, 04:21 PM

Having a stock entry class would be fine by me. It would be interesting to see who can be fast on stock equipment; however, this won't work for most classes...especially pro-am and pro. When I watch a pro, I want to see someone going faster than I could ever imagine.

In a nutshell, I think the tracks are too large...the riders get too spread out and it is BORING to watch even pros ride. You can only watch Wimmer do so many laps. The thing with bikes is there are so many of them...same with Nascar. I think SX (within a hockey arena) is too tight for quads. The "arena" track at Budds would be a good size or something that would fit within a baseball field.

Hate to say it but the issue with racing isn't about what it costs to race. It has nothing to do with manufacturers supporting the pros. Richer purses will draw the best riders...this money would have to come from advertising. Advertising comes from a fan base. Many have tried to "invest" in the sport to see it grow but it really hasn't happened. Face it, ATV MX really isn't exciting enough in the current form. We watch it because we ride. A non-rider isn't going to watch GNCC, MX, hillclimbing, or ice racing. Just not exciting. Snowmobile mx is really exciting. Lots of action. It boils down to having a smaller track and keeping the action going.

If nothing changes about the current form of racing then the sport will stay right where it is and has been.

TNT

11-30-2009, 05:06 PM

Originally posted by quad2xtreme
Having a stock entry class would be fine by me. It would be interesting to see who can be fast on stock equipment; however, this won't work for most classes...especially pro-am and pro. When I watch a pro, I want to see someone going faster than I could ever imagine.

In a nutshell, I think the tracks are too large...the riders get too spread out and it is BORING to watch even pros ride. You can only watch Wimmer do so many laps. The thing with bikes is there are so many of them...same with Nascar. I think SX (within a hockey arena) is too tight for quads. The "arena" track at Budds would be a good size or something that would fit within a baseball field.

Hate to say it but the issue with racing isn't about what it costs to race. It has nothing to do with manufacturers supporting the pros. Richer purses will draw the best riders...this money would have to come from advertising. Advertising comes from a fan base. Many have tried to "invest" in the sport to see it grow but it really hasn't happened. Face it, ATV MX really isn't exciting enough in the current form. We watch it because we ride. A non-rider isn't going to watch GNCC, MX, hillclimbing, or ice racing. Just not exciting. Snowmobile mx is really exciting. Lots of action. It boils down to having a smaller track and keeping the action going.

If nothing changes about the current form of racing then the sport will stay right where it is and has been.

“Hate to say it but the issue with racing isn't about what it costs to race. It has nothing to do with manufacturers supporting the pros.”

I’ll differ with you there. OEM support pro’s to sell to the mass population, amateurs! More amateur’s more sales. As I stated earlier, more efficient designs and manufacturing more sales=more profits.

“Many have tried to "invest" in the sport to see it grow but it really hasn't happened.”

I’ll differ with you there too, since 2004 since the first YAM “race ready” quad, I have seen tremendous growth and robust designs, lower cost out of the OEM. I think it’s obvious some OEMs have invested more than others, I applaud Can-am, and Polaris for entering the market and taking on new risk that will generate more of the above, am’s buying quads, pro’s being paid to market them and increase sales.

“Face it; ATV MX really isn't exciting enough in the current form. We watch it because we ride.”

The bike fan base you will find on TV are riders, freinds, families, only time I hear of it is on bike forums... it’s not more exciting than quads just been around longer give quads time. I think if the OEM can get the cost down someday we will see close to the same #’s......Cost has come down a lot in the past five years if the OEM can duplicate that in the next five years we got a lot to look forward to in growth.

“Snowmobile mx is really exciting. Lots of action.”

It’s alright, I went to the 06 WPSA winter x games in Aspen, CO..No back flips there, it was flipping freezing!...lol... It was cool! More than quads? Na, more than other forms of racing? Not imo, depends on what you like. I don’t race at all, so my opinion is one of many fans. I’m bias to quads since my son races one. I never watch snoX, bikes, nascar, I like drag racing and surfing since I use to be one. :D

“If nothing changes about the current form of racing then the sport will stay right where it is and has been.”

Again we have seen some incredible growth at races at the OEM up until the recession. Nothing has stayed the same from five years ago. That statement above holds true for more business that need to stay dynamic in a global economy and I think this industry has made some good changes and will continue.

Don’t know what happen to one guy that was starting a pro support team funded by outside sponsors; he was a X- NASCAR racer, so we may see more of that growth in 2010 if not just a matter of time.

Geez, this thread is sees alot of the glass half full, let’s looks look at some positives!!!!!!

btw: Just got to Charleston, SC, see your 4 hours north is there a quad series around here?

TrapZ400

11-30-2009, 05:31 PM

Well said TNT

300racer

11-30-2009, 06:01 PM

A non-rider isn't going to watch GNCC, MX, hillclimbing, or ice racing. Just not exciting. Snowmobile mx is really exciting. Lots of action. It boils down to having a smaller track and keeping the action going.

i don't agree i think the gncc races on tv now are exciting (imo) there isn't really any race where the leader wins by more than 10 sec. although they can't shoot the whole tack witch sux cause you don't get to see the passing to much but still fun to watch. and i would watch mx and sx if they had atv's i think that the bike are boring because there is always one fast guy (james stewart) that goes out and kills everyone laps up to like 5th or 6th that is just terrible to watch (imo)

nwi45

11-30-2009, 06:07 PM

I think the schedule for the ATV Outdoors hurts it the worst. I think they should run the same tracks the dirtbikes run, either a week or 2 before or after.

Jackson723

11-30-2009, 06:26 PM

If I could win a huge lottery I would dump some serious cash on TV coverage for the quads. And a team. So for now I will just keep buying tickets till I win.

Oh and who do you think will win the first quad moto of 2010? Isn't it great that 5 or 6 names come to mind. Not just one.

TrapZ400

11-30-2009, 06:29 PM

I think WE need to try to do everything we can to get the word out about atv racing and professional atv racing. There are a lot of atv riders out there that dont know anything about pro atv racing and atv racing in general. And im sure they would love to learn more about it and go to the races. Theres a lot of riders that dont even know that theres a pro race in NY (Unadilla)

Atvriders.com is doing a great job by making a facebook page. Props to them for doing that!

John Noftsinger

11-30-2009, 06:40 PM

X-games freesytle, TT road/dirt track race, 4x4 track with logs/tires/etc would be good starting point for atv . then put MX racing on sports channel and get rid of lawnmower racing/or some of the wasteful time talking Nascar and put Atv racing in its slot!Then you,ll have more fans/people wanting to ride/race! then sport will grow ,there are people that have never seen a race quad in action before.

TrapZ400

11-30-2009, 06:47 PM

What ever happend to the Great Outdoor Games? That was so sick! The track and the TV coverage was awesome. I thought they said that the ratings for the GOG were the highest it has ever been thanks to the atv race.

SRH

11-30-2009, 11:09 PM

the main issue is were mimicking dirtbikes....and the dirtbikes got all the marketing and promotion...no to mention an established fan base....dont forget motocross for dirtbikes started in the late 50's early 60's where as quads were 86..., i just feel like dirtbikes are there already the hype is there, and accessibility for the fans, tv, sx, mx, fmx etc, so why bother watching quads...i mean its really no more interesting than watching corr... and i think corr is a bit more interesting ..and im a quad guy

are best hope for the sport to have a future is to partner with the dirtbikes get the pro quad moto on a tv deal to break up the lites and mx class, then cut back on the amateur classes at the nationals for the bikes and quads, run 125 a,b,c run 250 a,b,c, womens, 65 and 80's combined ability for bikes and for quads run 14-16, and 450 a ,b,c and the super mini class

so ur weekend ud run your ams

quad classes:
450 a
450b
450c
14-16
supermini
womens

bikes
lites A,B,C
450s A,B,C
65's
85's

pro sunday youd have 1 quadsx style main at intermission between the bike motos

then refine all the ama sanctioned tracks on the local level to force them to run mandatory bike and quad classes with all the usual classes and work it to bring the local level races to carry weight comparable to what we see on the national level now...then you would get your super competitive super funded guys hitting the national series for some added exposure, but joe blow could race his local series and get the notoriety and support he wouldnt get without more concentration on the local level

better yet i feel they should drop all the ams from the pro weekend and run both bikes and quads at the local level were the fastest guys would go to like loretta's now for the bikes...but i dont think promoters want to lose the income from the ams

unfortunatel this would benefit us more than the dirtbike guys...maybe even hurt them so i dont know how likely it is...and with the uncertaintity in the economy it would be a gamble for everyone involved, ur cutting guranteed income from the dirtbikes to promote atv's which might not pan out or replace the income the dirtbikes produced

other thing is they could disban the atva national series, run the pros on the pro bikes weekend, then force the local level into running equal bike and quad classes for the weekend with a amateur national for both bikes and quads...but thats a big risk, because when its gone its gone, and if the attendance isnt there locally were bound to lose those classes, then atv racing is really in jeporady

right now i think were doing the best we can without some investor intrest and a tv deal like wpsa

bw1969

12-01-2009, 02:06 PM

The writing is on the wall IMO...

The AMA is ran by a bunch of MC guys and gals.... it always has been and always will be. They love MC's and we all know that MC guys hate ATV's.

The ATV is made by MC guys... Again... we all know that MC guys hate ATV's...

If a great marketing program is brought to the AMA... they want to forget about ATV's and take it to the MC's. Trust me... I know this for a fact!

Without our own sanctioning body and marketing team, ATV racing will never grow like supercross or MX bike racing.

Now I realize that many will argue that ATV's out-sell MC's 2-to-1 but we all know that the ATV's that are selling are for the farmers, construction workers, etc... it's not the sport bikes!

I also realize that people will say we have a group and promoters that love ATV racing and supports our sport... That opens another entire discussion, because that is so far from the truth. The only people who care about our sport, are the riders! Outside of that, nobody cares... I hate to admit that because I do Love ATV's!

TNT

12-01-2009, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by bw1969
The writing is on the wall IMO...

The AMA is ran by a bunch of MC guys and gals.... it always has been and always will be. They love MC's and we all know that MC guys hate ATV's.

The ATV is made by MC guys... Again... we all know that MC guys hate ATV's...

If a great marketing program is brought to the AMA... they want to forget about ATV's and take it to the MC's. Trust me... I know this for a fact!

Without our own sanctioning body and marketing team, ATV racing will never grow like supercross or MX bike racing.

Now I realize that many will argue that ATV's out-sell MC's 2-to-1 but we all know that the ATV's that are selling are for the farmers, construction workers, etc... it's not the sport bikes!

I also realize that people will say we have a group and promoters that love ATV racing and supports our sport... That opens another entire discussion, because that is so far from the truth. The only people who care about our sport, are the riders! Outside of that, nobody cares... I hate to admit that because I do Love ATV's!

Not sure what you wrote above is on the wall...let’s hope not! I think there’s some truth to what you say but not entirely for the reason you stated.

Our motorcycle club I will use as a scaled down version to illustrate my AMA business case and speculation that Im sure is the case all over the country. We draw 300+ bikes, 60 quads on average to our races, likewise to our local Wichita, KS industry. Now let’s say you are in the business of profiting from bikes and quads, which one would you focus on? I have pounded our President and Board of Director's to invest more money in advertising our series and focusing on it but to them as bike guys, too risky and past results not in our favor. Some quad guys rather go to the dunes than a MX track, etc.....so we reap what we soe.

We tried the whole concept of running bikes and quads together at our local tracks, don’t work, Steel City tried it....Entertaining but they don’t mix well. We did a study over a five year period and lost too many bikes, pro’s included that the fans wanted to see when quads ran with bikes. Some bikes, most, will not run the same tracks w/quads. We do still run them in the SX series, but not MX the bike MX brings in the 3x times the $, quad MX breaks even maybe a loss after all the indirect expenses are paid (track prep, flaggers, etc). Bikes hold the quad series up.

AMA –IF they “hated” quads that much from a business perspective, IF they were loosing money and had no future make no mistake they’d be gone!! I seriously doubt the investors that carry this series do for it sake of “their love or hatred for atv’s” nor would anyone in their right mind that makes promoting races their livelihood when at the end of the day they got to put food on the table to feed their families, would you, probably not! I’d much rather spend a vacation in the Bahamas’ where I’d love to spend time with my family vs dealing with a non-profiting quad series cuz I “love it”...

Again I think there is a vested interest in quads as shown even recently by the merging of pro-quads into AMA, branching out to other first time locations like Spring Creek 2010 which is an active atv community, 11 rounds of am’s this season vs 10 last, opening rule book changes to public opinion, etc, all show a level of investment and commitment in atv racing not hatred lol.

Don’t forget, WPSA failed, AMA/ATVA has been in the business for over 25 years with them this sport would be no where near where it is today, the OEMs would have no motivation or business case to produce ‘Race Ready” quads without some stability in the national racing community.

Be grateful we have someone such as AMA willing to invest in our future and in this economy a 2010 ATVPG schedule at all.

quad2xtreme

12-01-2009, 06:25 PM

TNT, you can checkout D13 and D29 but these are far north of you. Not sure what racing is in SC. Carolina Adventure World is a great place to ride but the track is the worst.

TNT, this isn't directed to you but to anyone reading the post...anyone who knows me knows I don't make any personal attacks on the net or in the office. I will challenge ideas and make people think about a problem and solutions but that is it.

The original question was what will it take to get ATV MX in the mainstream like dirt bike MX? Will ATV MX grow into anything nearly as popular as dirt bike MX?

The question is...who is going to make it happen? Or, better stated...who is going to fund the venture (risk)?

If anyone is really interested in growing the ATV MX industry, develop a business model and present it to the manufacturers, the ATVA, the media, or venture capitalists.

Show the manufacturers why it makes sense for them to fund the growth of the industry. Show the television producers why they should develop a program...because they will get advertising dollars based on the number of viewers.

It is that simple. People love to make money. Companies and venture capitalist will open their wallets when they see a business model that will work. Problem is, most businesses never hit the targets put forth in a business model. They tend to build best case scenarios that are designed to marginally make a profit. One thing fails and the whole thing crashes down.

It is easy to sit back and make the prediction that if this happened or that happened then it would grow. WPSA had tons of support and failed. People didn't watch the television programs...fans didn't attend the events. This will make it more difficult the next time around. The other problem is overcoming competing objectives.

In pro football, the owners get a piece of the pie when a game is televised. No NFL team would allow their teams to be broadcast without getting some of the money. Television stations can tell them they will make money from selling more tickets or jerseys but it doesn't matter. The owners want the money...they aren't interested in "sharing"...this is just one example of overcoming competing objectives. When you are the one investing the dollars...how do you ensure that you get your just reward and others who aren't investing don't get to capitalize?

Go back to one of my early posts...this is why I wouldn't want the job. Who is going to wake up tomorrow and start developing an overall strategy and put it into action? Building the business model is just one small piece of the puzzle.

quad2xtreme

12-01-2009, 06:42 PM

By the way...numbers at the last races at NCMP...

19 quads on Saturday...160+ bikes on Sunday.

ATV MX will be grass roots for many, many years to come. It would take a miracle to make it anything close to bike MX.

TNT

12-01-2009, 06:58 PM

Good post quad2xtreme – I think you just reinstated all we have to be grateful for. :D

Lasher

12-02-2009, 12:59 PM

My job allows me to see the inside workings of getting a sports show on the TV. (X-games included)

Say you approached a TV/Cable company about putting ATV MX racing on their line up. You would have two options...

Option 1 - Self produce.
This option (in simple terms) you "buy" the hour long slot from the company and provide them with a tape of the show (commericals can get more complicated). Basically, the TV/cable company rents the time slot.

Option 2 - Company produce.
This option, the tv/cable company would film the event, edit the show and play it on their channel. (Commericials get complicated)

Now a cable company only cares to make money. There are two ways a cable company brings in revenue. Money they charge the end cable company (Comcast/Time Warner) to have their networks. Or by selling Ads.

ATVs will not be in the X-games. Sorry folks. Dirt bikes are just a bigger draw.
ATVs will not be on ESPN. (they are too big)
You might get a smaller network to show ATV motocross...but you need to do one of the two options above.

As for the overall direction of ATV MX?

I have raced NEATV for years. The "production" class is a great start, but when one company (Can-Am) sells a much better "stock" quad than the other guys (and offers $$) it is pretty much a "Can Am" class. Which is kinda how I feel about ATV MX racing right now and in the next coming years.

In regular (or "modified") classes, there is no...superior quad. Everyone buys aftermarket stuff and it comes down to rider.

I am more curious to see how the ATVA handles the lack of factory support in the pro ranks. Will they lift the "production" rule?

quad2xtreme

12-02-2009, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by Lasher
My job allows me to see the inside workings of getting a sports show on the TV. (X-games included)

Cool, mine did too. I was a consultant/auditor for a Big Six accounting firm...I worked exclusively with rapid growth/emerging companies. I did work for Abry Communications which owned WNUV in Baltimore. It is an interesting business for sure. Did a ton of consulting for the Discovery Channel and The Learning Channel too.

muddy400EX

12-03-2009, 10:41 AM

quads on the xgames would help sooo much. then everyone would start pushing harder and it wouldnt just be caleb moore doing new tricks. and i think people would watch quads actually, alot of people dont even realize that qauds can jump, much less do backflips. and if they did a small super/motocross race at the games like they do with bikes. and about fuel tv, ive always wished they would get some quad coverage on there. they need to get a couple quad riders on "the great ride open" that would be sweet

John Noftsinger

12-03-2009, 08:00 PM

I think that the ama wont do more for atv,s till they get more rider,s at race,s wanting to race and the only way to do that is to get Atv racing/freestyle seen! Xgames/gravity game/or mountaindew tour whatever ! ,Im sure if someone went to the X-game,s promoters and said we want a chance to show you we can race the same SX track as the bike,s and do freestyle and we have 4x4 course for quads and bike,s Im sure it would get people talking and more people wanting to race and get involved in the sport it,s not going to be overnite change but it would get ball rolling.First thing is to petition the X-game! It,s not like they need to change that much mosty more air time for atv,s. the atv,s can use the road/dirt track like the bike,s (SX) and the freestyle would be the same ,maybe some different take off ramp,s in place, only real thing built would be a 4X4 course that sportquads and bike can race as well, it would add other event for the bike,s as well !I can tell you that it would get alot more viewer,s wanting to see atv,s race and freestyle for first time on major network! People WOULD want to see it ,And it WOULD get big rating,s !