What kind of pistol for protection? [Archive]

Keystone_Rider

11-27-2009, 07:15 PM

In the market for good 9mm semi-auto pistol to use for protecting home and family. I checked out a few models and liked the semi pistols that have safeties built in/on the trigger. No forgetting to mess with a manual safety during tense moments.
Also, not looking to spend more than 500 bucks, but quality and reliability is a must. So far I like the S & W models and there was actually a semi auto pistol, 9mm whose model name starts off with the letter "R". The cost of this gun was about $400 or so. But I'm open to any advice and suggestions from all.

By the way, not looking for smaller caliber pistols and revolvers.

ben300

11-27-2009, 10:11 PM

Originally posted by Keystone_Rider
In the market for good 9mm semi-auto pistol to use for protecting home and family. I checked out a few models and liked the semi pistols that have safeties built in/on the trigger. No forgetting to mess with a manual safety during tense moments.
Also, not looking to spend more than 500 bucks, but quality and reliability is a must. So far I like the S & W models and there was actually a semi auto pistol, 9mm whose model name starts off with the letter "R". The cost of this gun was about $400 or so. But I'm open to any advice and suggestions from all.

By the way, not looking for smaller caliber pistols and revolvers.

...ruger just came our with the sr9 9mm semi auto...fairly decent gun...have yet to shoot one, but they are a fairly decent price, are a polymer frame desing and have decent magazine capacity....you can probaly get one for between $400 to $500

honestly, i wouldnt not purchase a 9mm handgun for defense...if you want a reliability, and quality, you cannot absolutely not go wrong with the springfield xdm .40....high capacity magazine, is a more lethal round than a 9mm, and ammunition is fairl cheap....s&w make excellent fire arms..jstu over priced in my opinion..

glock also makes an excellent product and if your dead set on a 9mm, then you can easily pikc up a glock model 17 for around $500...i personally own a glock modely 37 which is in the .45 GAP caliber( glocks spin off of the 45 acp) and it a really nice gun, smooth action, ergonomically comfortable, decently low recoil, is as acurate as i can possibly shoot it, adn is really easy to disassemble and clean..

also, tatical pump 12 or 20 gauge shotguns such as a mossberg defender or a remington 870 defender make and excellent choice for home defense, because they're cheap, and can hit a larger square piece of area in closed quarters such as a house....they'
re is always a lot of room for error when shooting at somehtin gwiht a hand gun..

slightlybent47

11-27-2009, 11:27 PM

If it’s just for home defense then the old shotgun is the best choice. There cheap and nothing clears a hallway faster than a 12ga with buck shot. LOL!!!!!!

jcs003

11-28-2009, 02:23 AM

.38 revolver. most reliable gun you can get.

gncc025

11-28-2009, 04:13 AM

.40 glock

or

.40 S&W

reptikes

11-28-2009, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by gncc025
.40 glock

or

.40 S&W

Since when has Smith & Wesson made a top rated ANYTHING! If your gonna by a S&W you might as well by a Taurus!?!?

If your looking for Mag Capacity, Reliability, Out of the Box Accurate, Dual Safeties and a 20,000 round test to prove it all....

Springfield Armory XDM or XD .40 !!!:cool:

Can't go wrong with a Glock (32) .40 Harder for small hand women to handle... big grips.

And for ammo... Federal Premium - Hydra-Shok® JHP

gcart2

11-28-2009, 07:09 AM

i love my rossi .357 revolver, however nothing tops a glock 9mm.

bullets for the 9mm only cost an arm, compared to the .45's arm and testicle.

however i would say a shotgun, sawed off would prob be the best around home defense. It looks mean, louder, covers more area, cheaper ammo, and more convenient.

jcs003

11-28-2009, 07:27 AM

a Kimber is one of your top rated pistols. but your paying a definate "arm and testicle" for it. but as stated above a 12 gage is a true home invasion protection weapon. esically a semi-auto shotgun.

TCracin440ex

11-28-2009, 09:07 AM

.44 magnum FTW. id say shotgun tho. get you some bird shot too and if u have a crook or intruder in your house bust him with that bird shot. it wont kill him but he will think a nest of hornets got on his ***

slightlybent47

11-28-2009, 09:17 AM

Originally posted by reptikes
Since when has Smith & Wesson made a top rated ANYTHING! If your gonna by a S&W you might as well by a Taurus!?!?

If your looking for Mag Capacity, Reliability, Out of the Box Accurate, Dual Safeties and a 20,000 round test to prove it all....

Springfield Armory XDM or XD .40 !!!:cool:

Can't go wrong with a Glock (32) .40 Harder for small hand women to handle... big grips.

And for ammo... Federal Premium - Hydra-Shok® JHP

I have a Taurus and it's the biggest peace of crap i have ever owned.

Bigkyle111

11-28-2009, 10:00 AM

i own a glock, and its one of the most accurate and reliable pistols ive ever bought.... lil more exspencive, but if its for protection, a lil more money and help in the long run.

honda400ex2003

11-28-2009, 10:56 AM

i like my beretta 92fs 9mm and bobcat .22 they seem to work really nice and the bobcat if ever able to carry concealed is about 2.5 inches long. the 92 is full size but still shoots really nice. just another option for you. they go for about 650 and 300 for the two. steve

Toadz400

11-28-2009, 12:26 PM

I know you said $400-500 but for an extra $100 I would go with the Springfield XDm-9. I just picked one up last week and I love it. 19+1 round capacity, lightweight, very accurate and light, grips can be changed out to better fit your hand, has tactical rail for laser/light, and is very easy to take apart.

http://i1013.photobucket.com/albums/af254/ntody/100_3513.jpg?t=1259435493

reptikes

11-28-2009, 01:48 PM

I see a lot of people like the shotgun for the home... i too am a fan of say the Mossberg Special Purpose 500 Cruiser ( 18-1/4 inch barrel, 6-sluggers, Pistol Grip) BUT!!!! I'd probably go for the XD before i went for the 12 guage in an intruder situation. A 180gr JHP is going to do more life threating damage (blood loss)then a Birdshot or BuckShot from a distance to someone whos hopped up on meth or crack.

Say you had your kid run into the hallway where the intruder is now positioned. You aren't firing a shot gun and having stray pellets spaying your kid in the face.

slightlybent47, that was point!

slightlybent47

11-28-2009, 02:14 PM

ben300

11-28-2009, 02:32 PM

Originally posted by reptikes
I see a lot of people like the shotgun for the home... i too am a fan of say the Mossberg Special Purpose 500 Cruiser ( 18-1/4 inch barrel, 6-sluggers, Pistol Grip) BUT!!!! I'd probably go for the XD before i went for the 12 guage in an intruder situation. A 180gr JHP is going to do more life threating damage (blood loss)then a Birdshot or BuckShot from a distance to someone whos hopped up on meth or crack.

Say you had your kid run into the hallway where the intruder is now positioned. You aren't firing a shot gun and having stray pellets spaying your kid in the face.

slightlybent47, that was point!

im sorry i dont mean to disagree with you but, in now way shape or form is a pistol anymore dangerous than a 12 guage with a 3" shell with buck shot or sometin like size 2 bbs in closed quarters....if you shoot some one with in 15 20 yards in the a vital area with a 12 gauge, that mo fugger is goign down, i dont care what your on...plus you have a larger room for error with a 12 guage than with a pistol, plust if you miss wiht a pistol, what happens if they pop one off into you before you get one into them?

also, and im not saying your wrong...but can you honestly say that in ahouse, a modern house, amd im talkign a normal persons, not tiger wood's home, are you gonna have to make a shot any farther than 15 yards. i dotn have a stretch father than 15 yards in my home adn i have a fairly large house...its a lot easer to hit somethin with a 12 gauge with a skeet or open choke than it is wiht for say either my glock model 37 or either of my berretta 96 brigadiers at 15 yards, and i can shoot a pistol pretty accurately up to 30 yards, and thats me..

what happens when your wife or girl friend or son or daughter who have hardly ever used it go to use it? are they gonna be that accurate..sure they can shoot it and scare teh person away, but if they're crack crazed liek you say....i
d rather shoot to kill

slightlybent47

11-28-2009, 05:14 PM

If you want to carry in your car or in public then a pistol would be the way to go. Given you have the permit?
The cheapest pistol round other than a .22 is the 9mm. But the 9mm doesn’t have the knock down power as say a .357 or the .40 but if you are going to shoot it much then the 9mm is the way to go.
I take it by asking the question you are not familiar with the currant ammo prices and shortages going on sense Obamy took office.
Most of your large caliber ammo is in short supply and has gotten very expensive so that may play a roll in your decision.
Get you a cheep .22 for target practice and something bigger for defense.

Keystone_Rider

11-28-2009, 07:13 PM

Great, now i'm no closer on a decision than i was last night. I love the shotgun and it's capabilities, but the problem with them is no control of the pellets once it leaves the barrel. Half will hit the target and the other half will continue on its way thru walls and possibly hit an innocent person down the hallway. Also, they are cumbersome in a hallway or tight spots. I already have a 20 ga. pump action Remington. I rather have the semi auto pistol where i have control of the shots and where the bullets are going. I'm thinking about going with the Springfield XDM .40 semi auto. Seems they are priced right and have good feedback.

Now another question and this might alter my decision which pistol I buy..... which ammo caliber is readily available and won't cost me an arm and leg? I keep hearing that 9mm and .45 are hard to find and expensive but on the other hand, i hear they are both available and .40 and other ammo's are hard to find and expensive..... I need some feedback on this.

Anyone know of any Pa gunshows in Central pa coming up? Seems most are in southeast pa.

jherbie28

11-28-2009, 07:22 PM

i can vouch for the springfield XD.40 its a killer piece. very nice pistol but as stated before the shotgun is gonna probably be your best bet also less chance of hurting your other family members in other rooms in certin situations(sp?) good luck

slightlybent47

11-28-2009, 07:27 PM

Try a site called handloads.com and go to the general discussion section and there are lots of threads on the ammo shortage. You will have to sine up to respond to the thread but you can read through the threads without sighing up.
This a very good site for reloading and any questions you may have. I use that site a lot.

Hope that helps

Here is a link
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=2

Here is a link to the hand gun section
http://forums.handloads.com/forum_topics.asp?FID=6

slightlybent47

11-28-2009, 07:36 PM

On the thing you said about stray pellets going through walls is valid. But any large caliber or even as small as a .22 will go through walls with ease. It’s not like in the movies where bullets bounce off interior walls and doors. A .22 will go all the way through a car. I’m talking both doors, in one side and out the other. So anything you use will have the potential to go through walls.

jherbie28

11-28-2009, 07:50 PM

exactly it will make you think twice before you unload a clip into whatevers in its path, but at the same time you have to be responseable and use common sense when handleing ang using a firearm.........this brought to you buy your friendly neighborhood spokesperson:p

xjoedirt55x

11-28-2009, 08:18 PM

I carry a XD40 which is a great gun. Wouldn't trade it for anything. Carry whatever is comfortable, and keep a 12 gauge at home with buckshot in it for home protection. If the shots go through the walls, they are less likely to be deadly if at all.

slightlybent47

11-28-2009, 08:25 PM

To better answer your question on the ammo shortage. From what I have seen and heard it’s very sporadic as to what’s available. There has been times when every thing I’m looking for has been hard to get and other times on problem. Seems like the most shortages being on large semi auto ammo. It’s not just the ammo but the components as well, powder, primers, bullets exc. A lot of people are hording ammo, getting ready for dooms day I guess.

ALAMX37

11-28-2009, 09:50 PM

Sig Sauer p226. Can be chambered in 9mm, 40 cal, or sig357. My next buy for sure. I own and carry what I like to refer to as "big nasty". .44, but its hard to conceal unless its cold out. I carry a .25 on my ankle year round, but either big nasty or my glock 17 at my waist. Would not buy glock again, just all around dont like the gun. Remember though, dont draw unless you intend to use lethal force.

TM426

11-28-2009, 10:14 PM

I have a XDM in .40 cal. I love it haven't had any feeding problems or anything. Its a great gun and great for someone new to fire arms. It has very little parts and is easy to maintain. No tools needed for stripping. I use extreme shock fragmenting ammo for home defense. It starts to break up on impact. If it hits a first layer of drywall it is much less lethal if it makes it past the second layer. However if it hits a skin it breaks up causing massive damage on intended target.

TM426

11-28-2009, 10:24 PM

Originally posted by TM426
I have a XDM in .40 cal. I love it haven't had any feeding problems or anything. Its a great gun and great for someone new to fire arms. It has very little parts and is easy to maintain. No tools needed for stripping. I use extreme shock fragmenting ammo for home defense. It starts to break up on impact. If it hits a first layer of drywall it is much less lethal if it makes it past the second layer. However if it hits a skin it breaks up causing massive damage on intended target.
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This ammo is best for home defense

rdtrp13

11-28-2009, 11:58 PM

go with a 12 ga, but i use rock salt it keeps the blood splatter down off the trophys. plus you dont have to deal with killing someone, it will burn for a couple days and they wont get up for awhile, i learned this when i got shot in the *****, literaly it sux, but if you are going pistol i would go with 9mm sig they are very reliable just like a glock but dont cost as much i got mine for around 400

slightlybent47

11-29-2009, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by TM426
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This ammo is best for home defense

Yeah they have come a long way in the development of specialized rounds that don’t penetrate to far.
But the bad thing about that is there have been some home invasions that the perpetrators are wearing body armor. And I don’t know nor would I trust one of those new rounds to make it through. But if you analyze every situation there will always be pro’s and cons to what ever you do.

yamaha250f

11-29-2009, 02:24 AM

How the Fuzz does it Our normal patrol shotguns. 14.5 inch barrel mossberg and our maverick. the pistol grip is for when there is a man hunt its just lighter and its in 20ga. man do the flames shoot out of that 14.5 inch though.

yamaha250f

11-29-2009, 02:25 AM

fuzz 3 comparison in barrel's 14.5 vs 18.5

yamaha250f

11-29-2009, 02:26 AM

fuzz 4 my G Lock 357 sig fast and accurate round give a good hit down range.

yamaha250f

11-29-2009, 02:26 AM

fuzz 5 357sig round Speer GoldDot

yamaha250f

11-29-2009, 02:38 AM

Im picky when it comes to guns. I just bought a Kimber SIS/RL in 45 and I like it. Its just for shooting and my new court gun. When ever the armour and badge go on though its always a Glock on my side. I have a 31 current carry gun 357sig, 34 9mm old carry gun and police academy gun, 21sf in 45 havent qualified with it yet but i gonna switch hit between that and the 357 sig and a Kahr PM9 9mm all around carry. So far the Kimber shoots the best but it was also $1,200 bucks so it better shoot good. But nothing shoots like a Glock. I also carry my Ar-15 by Bushmaster that has nothing left stock on it i had it completely redone and i have a 870 tactical that i carry in the car here and there.
The station has mossbergs don't like them as much but their, there if I need them.

slightlybent47

11-29-2009, 03:19 AM

I picked up a Taurus PT-111 in a 9mm for my mother and it is a well made gun but I don’t like anything about it. It’s a very safe gun with the safety trigger and the lock out on the stock. But with the long trigger pull and the fixed sites it doesn’t shot very well. I ended up giving her a Remington 1100 20ga. instead.
That was $375.00 I’d like to have back. For the taurus i mean.

gcart2

11-29-2009, 07:14 AM

Heres my old 9mm (this gun is about fifteen years old give or take a few) and .357.

.357 is s rozzi. 9mm is a S&W. both shoot flawlessly and have had thousands of rounds put through them. actually the 9mm is being shot at the range today.

Story: these were my fathers pistols. he passed when i was 7, ten years ago at the age of 36. He had these two pistols, kept one in his plane and the other in his car (shotgun for the house). My brother and i both took one. do to the fact i was so young i got the .357. simpler. I have always been very gun smart. I will be buying a glock 19 and a little .22lr here soon too. brother has a glock 19 and i fell in love. anyways heres the guns. they still look like new.
http://i88.photobucket.com/albums/k181/gcart2/PHTO00400.jpg

440racer66

11-29-2009, 08:11 AM

ruger sr9s are what i would get for a good decent priced 9mm they shoot really good and are very accurate i would deff give this a shot

reptikes

11-29-2009, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by slightlybent47
That’s true the shotgun don’t discriminate between friend or fo when you use bird or buck shot. But a slug can.
But I disagree about knock down power with the 12ga. A shotgun no mater if it’s bird shot or slug is shooting a full 1oz of shot down range and for close range as in home defense not even a 50 cal. Cant shoot a 1oz projectile. i.e slug.
But even a .22 is better then nothing. In fact the .22 has killed more people then any other caliber in history.
I use a Remington 1100 12ga semi auto with extended clip for the home.

When i refered to you i meant, about the Smith & Wesson compared to the Taurus statement ... they are both crap.

usp4u

11-29-2009, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by reptikes
Since when has Smith & Wesson made a top rated ANYTHING! If your gonna by a S&W you might as well by a Taurus!?!?

And for ammo... Federal Premium - Hydra-Shok® JHP

You may want to read up on the S&W M&P pistols then. Damn fine guns.

Hydra Shok ammo was crap 15 years ago when it came out, and still is. Federal HST, Winchester Ranger-T, Hornady TAP, and Remington Golden Saber Bonded all pentetrate much better and are shown resisting clogging of the hollowpoint cavity.

My everyday carry is an HK USP compact .40, great gun but a little pricey. Most of the blow-up Glocks you see are .40. glocks unsupported chambers allow case failures due to .40 higher operating pressures.
The Glocks are great guns, but I wouldn't have one in .40

To the OP: you should really take a look at the CPO(Certified Pre-owned) SIG's. These are police trade-ins that go back to SIG for refurb and are resold with a new warranty. They sell for about half of a new sig. I have a P226 9mm and it's a great pistol.

reptikes

11-29-2009, 10:46 AM

Originally posted by usp4u
You may want to read up on the S&W M&P pistols then. Damn fine guns.

.

I've never read or heard about S&W being a top rated gun... PERIOD. Its not near the top of the heap.

ben300

11-29-2009, 11:06 AM

also to the OP, i dont think you understand the capabilities of a 9mm bullet and the control that you would haeve over it in passing through walls...

..if you are concerned about stray projectiles hitting innocent ppl then the shot gun would be your choice. shot gun projectiles greatly loose they're velocity adn effective ness in distances over 50 yards. yes there are guys out there that are makign custom turkey loads that can be shot effectively at distances of 80+ yars, but those are turkey loads, not hoem defense loads, plus if you were to shoot a shot into a random wall, i would say the mojority if not all of the projectants would not fully penetrate the wall of house...

how ever, you definitally have no control over a 9mm bullet once it has been fired adn missed its target...

the 9mm bullet is a slightly modified version of lugger 7.56 mm caliber bullet with a different, rimless cartridge. it still maintaines its bollistic properties and can easily pass through walls of a home

reptikes

11-29-2009, 01:08 PM

Typical velocity for 1 oz birdshot is around 1200 feet per second, and 1400 ft lbs. at the muzzle.

A .40 S&W Rem.Golden Saber 165gr.JHP goes 1150 feet per second and has a muzzle energy of 485 ft lbs. ONE SHOT STOPPING % = 94%

The only other hand gun that is equal is .45ACP Federal Hydra-Shok 230gr .JHP with 819 feet per second a muzzle energy of 366 ft lbs. and a ONE SHOT STOPPING % = 94%

If you can afford it have the best of both worlds. A good .40 S&W and a good 12 guage!

;)

ben300

11-29-2009, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by reptikes
If you can afford it have the best of both worlds. A good .40 S&W and a good 12 guage!

;)

he does have a point...go check out gun broker or similar websites and see if you can pick up a nice used 9mm and a tatical shotgun....you can pick up a remington 870 express tatical for less than 400 from a dealer

CannondaleRider

11-29-2009, 03:32 PM

My personal opinion? 9mm isn't sufficient for a drug crazed intruder. It will inflict damage, of course. But, it doesn't shock, cause blood loss, and stop a determined intruder...like, say, a .45ACP round.

It's better then nothing, being I carry a SIG 225/P6 9mm on my hip all the time... and have a Makarov 9x18mm on my nightstand, along with a 12GA under my bed.

But, I will be buying a Kimber Custom TLE/RL II in .45ACP soon..... and a Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry in .45, for concealed carry, once I get my CCW.. AND, most likely a Tactical conversion to my less used, sport Mossberg 500A.

ben300

11-29-2009, 05:27 PM

Originally posted by CannondaleRider
But, I will be buying a Kimber Custom TLE/RL II in .45ACP soon..... and a Kimber Ultra Crimson Carry in .45, for concealed carry, once I get my CCW.. AND, most likely a Tactical conversion to my less used, sport Mossberg 500A.

**** dude, the kimbers are fantastic guns, but if your gonna drop that kinda cash, save the money and buy a wilson combat 1911...they are fantastic custom made 1911 and can be custom finished to your exact liking...

CannondaleRider

11-30-2009, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by ben300
**** dude, the kimbers are fantastic guns, but if your gonna drop that kinda cash, save the money and buy a wilson combat 1911...they are fantastic custom made 1911 and can be custom finished to your exact liking...

Trust me...if I had THAT kind of cash, I would. In a heartbeat. But, the only reason I can get the first Kimber is due to a big check I have coming. And the Crimson Carry will be only from another lump sum check, or a larger sale of some sort. ha. I can't afford a Wilson Combat in my situation right now, or for a while.

Plus, I don't want to have too much more expensive of a 1911, if it's gonna be on my hip at all waking hours, in anything but a silk lined holster. lol. I'd go cheaper for that reasoning, but I want the ultimate in reliability as well. A 1,000 dollar Kimber seems to fit the bill for me right now.

I'll splurge, and go for a Wilson Combat Tactical Super Grade 1911........when I'm Oprah rich. lol

gncc025

11-30-2009, 04:05 AM

Originally posted by reptikes
Since when has Smith & Wesson made a top rated ANYTHING! If your gonna by a S&W you might as well by a Taurus!?!?

If your looking for Mag Capacity, Reliability, Out of the Box Accurate, Dual Safeties and a 20,000 round test to prove it all....

Springfield Armory XDM or XD .40 !!!:cool:

Can't go wrong with a Glock (32) .40 Harder for small hand women to handle... big grips.

And for ammo... Federal Premium - Hydra-Shok® JHP

since the NEW SIGMA. I own one. Its identical to my glok

eastcoastpro20

11-30-2009, 11:37 AM

a shotgun is what u need, the cockin of a shotgun is a universal language meaning get the **** out haha

Toadz400

11-30-2009, 04:27 PM

Originally posted by eastcoastpro20
a shotgun is what u need, the cockin of a shotgun is a universal language meaning get the **** out haha

Exactly. Although my XDm sounds pretty bada** when putting one in the chamber. My next gun will for sure be a shotgun for going underneath the bed.

usp4u

12-01-2009, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by reptikes
I've never read or heard about S&W being a top rated gun... PERIOD. Its not near the top of the heap.

Then you should do some reading....PERIOD. The M&P is snapping up Glock police contracts all over the country. Also becoming one of the "it" guns in USPSA Production division, as well as IPSC.
Like the Springfeild XD, it's doing a fine job of "out Glocking" the Glock.
Not a "top-rated" gun?
Big-Bore revolvers: X frames- .460 & .500
Mid-size revolver: Model 29 (arguably the most popular revolver of all time)
Autos: M&P series, 4506(mid eightes uber-popular police sidearme), 1006(FBI sidearm when issuing 10mm), P99 (one of the best early DAO auto, thought borrowed from Walther design), 22-a(one the finest target .22's ever)
M&P15 rifle is an excellant mid-grade AR.

MOFO

12-01-2009, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by usp4u
Then you should do some reading....PERIOD. The M&P is snapping up Glock police contracts all over the country. Also becoming one of the "it" guns in USPSA Production division, as well as IPSC.
Like the Springfeild XD, it's doing a fine job of "out Glocking" the Glock.
Not a "top-rated" gun?
Big-Bore revolvers: X frames- .460 & .500
Mid-size revolver: Model 29 (arguably the most popular revolver of all time)
Autos: M&P series, 4506(mid eightes uber-popular police sidearme), 1006(FBI sidearm when issuing 10mm), P99 (one of the best early DAO auto, thought borrowed from Walther design), 22-a(one the finest target .22's ever)
M&P15 rifle is an excellant mid-grade AR.

Meh....

My brother bought a new M&P in .40 - after 400 rounds the coating is wearing off the barrel near the chamber. We'll see what happens - he is going back to the local gun store...

My G23 has a couple thousand rounds down the barrel and it does not show the signs of wear that my bothers M&P does (with a fraction of rounds). Its a good gun, but I'll take a Glock every day of the week and twice on Sunday's.