YFZ450X a crosscountry racer?

[ZX11]

This yamaha crosscountry ATV is getting a lot of attention from the industry. Why. It is just a base model with no additions. How does the fact that has the same width arms as base model ATV's qualify as an innovation? It is humorous to read the articles on the YFZ450X and read one paragraph on the narrow arms with five more paragraphs on the things that are the same with the motocross version.

I am going to start calling my base 08 the cross country model can-am came out with to compete with the 2010 YFZ450X.

The real DS 450 crosscountry has a long list of racing changes, accessories, and adjustability that is focused on woods riding. The YFZ has narrow arms and a different fuel map. Weak.

[GE4x4]

I would agree. I also believe the X is very close to the same price as the DS 450 X XC. That is real sad.

[VIGILANTE MAN]

Are you guys serious? It doesn't matter what accessories a quad has if it can't finish a race. Can Am's aren't called DNF 450's in the GNCC world for nothing.

[ZX11]

Originally posted by VIGILANTE MAN
Are you guys serious? It doesn't matter what accessories a quad has if it can't finish a race. Can Am's aren't called DNF 450's in the GNCC world for nothing.

I am serious that the YFZ450X is a base quad. It is just hyped by the media as a crosscountry.

Trolling doesn't solve the riddle of why the media is hyping this. I doubt the yfz450x is a crosscountry simply because the DS is called (by you) a DNF.

[florentino]

i think the older yamaha is better then the new one in many ways. when was the last time yamaha won a mx race new or old.
i have yamaha honda and a ds .. and my ds is the worse mistake ever. its a good bike when it runs. the frame dont brake mine is crack at the skit plate.

[VIGILANTE MAN]

Originally posted by ZX11
I am serious that the YFZ450X is a base quad. It is just hyped by the media as a crosscountry.

Trolling doesn't solve the riddle of why the media is hyping this. I doubt the yfz450x is a crosscountry simply because the DS is called (by you) a DNF.

No riddle. The media hypes Yamaha products because of the $ Yamaha throws their way.

[spanky101]

Originally posted by florentino
i think the older yamaha is better then the new one in many ways. when was the last time yamaha won a mx race new or old.
i have yamaha honda and a ds .. and my ds is the worse mistake ever. its a good bike when it runs. the frame dont brake mine is crack at the skit plate.

Pretty sure it was 2008 pro atv invitational at Steele city with pat brown. But winning a race is so much more then the machine. Yes the machine has to hold up and be competative but the rider is the biggest thing.

[TNT]

You can't make a determination from a small sample of GNCC races on the reliability of a quad, common you should know better than that.

To do this accurately go pull all the warantee claims on the YAM since 2004 it's first year then compare them to the DS in 08. Thats just a start, then once you had a graph of "time vs failures" of both gather more data from ma and pa shops that are outside of warantee, then add to that on a seperate curve for each quad failure race teams non pros have had but seperate since at some point on that graph you will be outside the design intent. From there you can gather pro data, but that is the smallest sample you will find if you think about it. OEM's are much more concerned about bulk sales, amatuers are not pros and don't compare.

In 2004 Hon was doing much better than YAM, HON did better in the next 5-yrs to follow I think it's safe to say in reliability, Can did not exist, your YAM comparitvely speaking in retrospect didn't do that well as apparent by a major redesign in 09.

After 5-6 years of design effort the graphs would show that YAM should be doing 5 times better than the DS and it's not! ...if anything YAM is following behind some of the technology and innovations such as the frame.

[ScottB125]

For some reason, when CanAm released this quad, everyone expected it to be flawless. When I think back to 08 and the issues they had, it was overheating. People couldn't finish races due to this. For some reason, that has and will plaque Can Am. Then you had the clutch saga...now cases are cracking.

All the other manufacturers have had their fair share of problems, but people have forgotten. Hopefully as time goes, people will forget about CanAm's issues.

I've been fairly satisfied with my 08. I put a Motoworks clutch assembly in it...been fine. I hope it stays that way.

[coryatver]

I think it is getting a lot of attention as it is pretty much the only new model for the next model year the magazines have to write about something lol

The old yfz is 10 times the XC race quad the new one is. I wouldn't say the redesign from the original yfz model was based on the need to correct design flaws. It was more to get some sales hype and sell some more quads. They put EFI, alluminum frame, and all that becuase people want to buy the lastest and greatest. To bad the changes they made were a step backwards for it as a xc race quad.

[TNT]

As an owner of a new 04 and 05 Yam I am here to tell you that designed is flawed beyone the 08 ds clutch and over heating problems.

The YAM swing arms would break left and right, the chain adjusters are dumb, the stock steel frame cracked left and right at the joints due to the design, tie rods ends broke in no time, electrical system a total disaster, and I can go on and on. 06 redesigned got a little better but not much, 09 agree worse....pretty sure the upper arm angle and caster problem is the sillyest thing I seen yet what were they thinking lol. :rolleyes

[florentino]

Originally posted by TNT
As an owner of a new 04 and 05 Yam I am here to tell you that designed is flawed beyone the 08 ds clutch and over heating problems.

The YAM swing arms would break left and right, the chain adjusters are dumb, the stock steel frame cracked left and right at the joints due to the design, tie rods ends broke in no time, electrical system a total disaster, and I can go on and on. 06 redesigned got a little better but not much, 09 agree worse....pretty sure the upper arm angle and caster problem is the sillyest thing I seen yet what were they thinking lol. :rolleyes
all i know is that i have the 2005 trx 2006 yfz and 2008 ds rode the new yamaha so i know what works yamaha and honda was just motor work after regular use. once you have the jap bikes with long travel shocks no one can touch them. and all the pros with the new yamaha cant keep up with the ltrs .. the best mod bike is the honda and the ltrs. the can am is a love or hate it. stock ds will smoke a trx butt a built honda and ds not the same.
i am stuck with my ds worse buy ever. i may trade it for a ltr .. i may make a cronomoly frame for my ds since i need one any ways. i got nothing to loose. i have some vids racing vs real fast pros at a real track on ltrs i even got the hole shot .. and i cant take the inside lines like the other bikes.

[TNT]

I dunno about that LTR, you may want to go thier forums look on page 2 they are wondering if 2010 will fix the 3rd gear issue after 5 years now. I know of one top Pro-am racers mechanic that changes 3rd gear before every race and has done it often for a girl amature even. Everyones waiting to see if the 2010 solved the problem and we're still a year out from having enough info to know. I would not want to buy one and have to get into that case on a regular basis. Other than that it's seems like a reliable well built quad. I think the steel frame will become obsolete and non-competitive as that AL technology evolves, but some may differ with me on that. It's going to be a race for power vs weight and with steel being over twice the density it will have a hard time. Al can end up thick too if it's not designed correctly.

We may also see some friction stir welding of AL soon too, it's pretty cool or I should say hot they way it works but melting metal by cold work to make a homogenous seem. Conventional welding is on it's way out too. The DS permanent hi-loc may be the best answer but it can cause issues if the design is not right with the stucture it goes through. The YAM uses bolts and nuts in a loose hole, not good since they can come off.

Hon is going to fall further and further behind the ball unless they redesign soon.

[Flynbryan19]

They ALL have problems.

You all obviously know Can-Am's short comings. Honda and Suzuki both have tranny problems w/ weak gears, Yamaha has definate issues w/ suspension geometry, and Kawasaki has a nightmare w/ their electrical issues from what I understand. I've also heard that the KTM's have inadequate oiling properties and don't get me started on Polaris's lack of attention in their QC.

It all comes down to picking the one that offers you the most and dealing with the short comings, because they ALL have them.

[ZX11]

Originally posted by coryatver
I think it is getting a lot of attention as it is pretty much the only new model for the next model year the magazines have to write about something lol

That sounds on target. There isn't always much to write about on new machines. It is just odd that they don't point out the obvious, like the citizens in the Emperior's New Clothes story, when they see it.

Vigilant has a point about the advertising money driving the reporting hype.

Time to surf the web for articles questioning the cross country designation. The web isn't paid enough to toe the company line.




My wife's brute force 650i loves crawling thru mud. With my DS 450 and mud, I go with the old pilot saying "Speed is life. Altitude is life insurance."

[VIGILANTE MAN]

Of all the factors that go into deciding if I would purchase a particular quad to race XC, two of the biggest are:

1) How are the pro's doing on a particular model, and

2) what has happened to a pro's national number after a year or two on any particular brand

Maybe this is being overly simplistic, but for the most point I could care less about magazine reviews, value for money, stock accessories, technological innovation, etc., etc.

The YFZ 450, KTM XC models and The Honda 450R are quads I would buy for the type of riding I do.

Everything else (including the new YFZ X) I would not.

Just my $.02

[TNT]

Originally posted by VIGILANTE MAN
Of all the factors that go into deciding if I would purchase a particular quad to race XC, two of the biggest are:

1) How are the pro's doing on a particular model, and

2) what has happened to a pro's national number after a year or two on any particular brand

Maybe this is being overly simplistic, but for the most point I could care less about magazine reviews, value for money, stock accessories, technological innovation, etc., etc.

The YFZ 450, KTM XC models and The Honda 450R are quads I would buy for the type of riding I do.

Everything else (including the new YFZ X) I would not.

Just my $.02

Well if your theory is correct everyone should go get a CAA now that Chad's on one, this Chad boy did well recently in MX Montreal and here since he's been on one. Seems like his national # won't be in Jepordy anytime soon nor putting the CAA on the podium, prolly true for any quad he gets on....Josh and Jeremie not too shabby either, Jeremie wins the Open pro Championship on a CAA. Check out some of the DNS/DNF's duttin look like CAA was the only one(YAM 3, KTM 2, CAA 2). I know regardless of how the pro's do my CAA is going to keep running. :D

2009 Yamaha / ITP Quadcross ATV Racing Results
Round 9 - November 22, 2009 - Glen Helen Raceway - San Bernardino, California

Overall Race Results

PRO450 PRODUCTION

Overall Number Brand Name City,State Moto 1 Moto 2

1 94 Yam Dustin Nelson Ramona, CA 1 2
2 44 CAA Chad Wienen Galena, IL 3 1
3 22x Suz Chase Snapp Tulsa, OK 2 5
4 549 Hon Beau Baron Atascadeio, CA 5 3
5 97 Yam Justin Noss Apply Valley, CA 6 6
6 603 CAA Josh Fredericks Lake Elsinore, CA 8 7
7 19 Yam Jason Dunkleberger Trevorton, PA 7 8
8 62 CAA Jeremie Warnia Lake Elsinore, CA 4 11
9 123 Hon Nick Denoble Depere, WI 12 4
10 122 Hon Evan Spooner Phoenix, AZ 9 9
11 139 Ktm Jason Fife Temecula, CA 10 10
12 22 Hon Dustin Terry Bakersfield, CA 11 12
13 88 Yam Dean Pierce Mission Viejo, CA 14 13
14 85 Ktm Mark Watson Alston, Cambria, 13 DNS

OPEN PRO

Overall Number Brand Name City,State Moto 1 Moto 2
1 19 Yam Jason Dunkleberger Trevorton, PA 2 2
2 549 Hon Beau Baron Atascadeio, CA 1 3
3 62 CAA Jeremie Warnia Lake Elsinore, CA 6 1
4 422 Kaw David Haagsma Bakersfield, 3 4
5 177 Hon Keith Tebeau Corona, CA 4 5
6 8 Yam Dennis Capogni Chino, CA 5 6
7 50 Yam Rafael Guzman National City, CA 7 7
8 3 OTH Sign Up Come To 9 8
9 93 Suz Tanner Gemperle Hilmar, 8 11
10 95 Yam Justin Waters Boise, ID DNF 9
11 85 Ktm Mark Watson Alston, Cambria, DNS 10
DNS 74 Yam Francisco Ruano San Diego, CA DNS DNS
DNS 603 CAA Josh Fredericks Lake Elsinore, CA DNS

[coryatver]

I very much agree with Vigilante. If Factory teams can not keep them together with all there resources and the best of the best mechanics and racers then there is no way I could as a privateer amature racing and practicing multiple seasons on the same quad and wrenching myself.

Your referring to races that are not the level of competition he is referring to. One decent pro shows up to a quadcross it pretty much doesn't matter what they race as long as it stays running they will win lol. Dustin Nelson wouldn't even finish top 10 at nationals. Same as the quebec quadcross it is pretty much a can am factory promo race.

Chad has raced like 3 easy races on the can am we will have to wait to see if it will hold up at nationals when they will have to really modify the motor to keep up with the competition.

As the past 3 season results show for the can am ds450 it doesn't look to good for him unless they somehow found a way to keep it together recently.


Originally posted by TNT
Well if your theory is correct everyone should go get a CAA now that Chad's on one, this Chad boy did well recently in MX Montreal and here since he's been on one. Seems like his national # won't be in Jepordy anytime soon nor putting the CAA on the podium, prolly true for any quad he gets on....Josh and Jeremie not too shabby either, Jeremie wins the Open pro Championship on a CAA. Check out some of the DNS/DNF's duttin look like CAA was the only one(YAM 3, KTM 2, CAA 2). I know regardless of how the pro's do my CAA is going to keep running. :D

[ZX11]

Originally posted by coryatver
Chad has raced like 3 easy races on the can am we will have to wait to see if it will hold up at nationals when they will have to really modify the motor to keep up with the competition.

What are easy races?

You do have a point with watching other racer's results if you plan on racing. For me however, motors built by specialized companies, $2k plus shocks, Walsh A arms, pipes, airboxes, fuel controllers, frame braces, new rims, and etc on the race bikes do not have anything to really relate to the ATV off the showroom floor. I like the idea that factories that put more effort and resources to winning races are rewarded with more sales. Unfortunately, I see it as the same as picking a Ford Taurus at the car dealership simply because someone won a NASCAR race in a million dollar race car with a Taurus sticker on it.

The YFZ450X might be a reliable quad but it is no more "crosscountry" than any other base ATV. I paid $3300 for my new DS 450 with all the same crosscountry features the YFZ450X has.

[RosquistRacer39]

Did something happen to chad at quadcross? He usually comes to the west coast and kills the competition. Or at least he did when he was riding other bikes. I was thinking of purchasing a new ds, but the problems with the engine cases and front end I see too much time wrenching and I would rather be practicing.
I too had a 04 yfz. Yes it had its problems but for what I put it through I cannot imagine many bikes holding up to that. But it killed me as far as racing goes, I would just get it fixed and go to practice when something else would break.
I don't know if all the manufactures see AL as the future. Look at KTM's new 350 mx bike it has a steel frame.

The thing about a ltr to make it reliable all you have to do is purchase a billet tranny gear and that fixes the problem. Having to throw $600 at a bike is a small price to pay considering all the problems that arise on a number of other manufactures. I now own one and have to say I love it.

But yamaha rebadging the yfz as a x is a joke. Like TNT said with the front end caster issue I would not own a yfz. On that note hopefully can-am can update and fix the weak links on the ds so we can have a race ready quad that will stand up to the abuse. I really like the way the factory support is going but I am not a factory racer, and a thousand bucks in parts (racer support) doesn't go far now days.

[TNT]

This may be a little off topic but I think now that Motoworks, BRP, Warnert have had a few years with the quad the problems will be reduced and we will see more on the podium in 2010. What amazes me about the YAM are since 2004 as I said it in retrospect should have no DNF’s, if time vs pro racing is your meter.

Suk what I don’t understand is the gear should be machined from the OEM, what do you mean ‘billet”...Billet is just a buzz word for “plate”; all gears are machined from plate or bar stock. Right around 3’’ thick plate starts to loose it’s mechanical properties, such as shear, compression, fatigue, so extruded or forged bar is used about 3 inches plus to machine from since the forging and extrusion process increases the properties by cold work. If it were that simple why doesn’t Suk just use billet or whatever you are referring to and why has it taken since its inaugural year to still not get it right. I was told its the tranny design, forces on the 3rd....Now to me that’s far worse looking than CAA has done with its clutch and hair line case crack in one year 2008. I don’t look at DNF’s could care less, I look at the technical aspects and development time. I do wish Suk get that gear right I’d probably go get one it’s really the only issue I am aware of anyway.

I wonder how many of these steel frame a-class or pro-am racers have to gusset the stock design. I have not owned one but the 04-05 YAMs they needed gussets then held up fine to hard abuse except our sub frame has another crack. That was the other thing in 04 YAM that sub was a 4 point if I remember right you had to go to a six point.

Well we just blew another head gasket on the CAN now we are going to try stock and get away from copper. I am about ready to throw the big bore away and send a new head to Motowork’s next week. Maybe it’s just the gasket, we got races every two weeks this sorta sucks! But dang when that quad runs the boy loves it! We’ get rid of all those relays and simplify the coolant system w/BCS, Motoworks head we may have a good a-class quad too.

[RosquistRacer39]

ATP has a billet tranny gear replacement for the ltr and from all the reviews it supposedly fixes the problem. I can say I have been riding the heck out of my ltr and the frame seems to be holding up fine. I do look at dnfs, not only that but also the forums to see what problems are arising. I know everyone says you will not run into these problems if your an amature but trust me I am no amature.

As far as yamaha's subframe design that was one place I figured it would get fixed with the release of this new bike, but what do you know they still have the same crappy design. Hows the ds's subframe hold up? It seems to have the same idea as the yfz but does it begin to flex like the yfz?

[TNT]

DS sub looks pretty good but we haven't had enough seat time to know...lol! I'm watching this DS closely and got my eye on the Suk, can you point me to the ATP website and the gear tech data?

Ya know we grew up on YAMs, Thomas Brown, Snapp and Miller brothers, my son Trever Portier all raced pro in TQRA 06,07.... I've watch all get away from them, Brown all thats left, some due to factories rides I'd say but that Chase wow last IPT Quadcross putting the pressure on Chad and last season pro-am on that Suk, we know his mechanic out of Tulsa and he and Yosh have his quad dialed in. Now they do replace 3rd every race, at his level there are no taking risk. He said they are all waiting to see 2010, what needs to happen is an engine redesign obviously and thats going to cost some $....point to this gear it may be a good fix I want to see the material.

[RosquistRacer39]

http://www.atpracingengines.com/index.htm

They don't have anything on there about third gear that I could find but you can call them and talk to mike he could answer all you questions. These guys have it together when it comes to the ltr. I bet they could help with the can am as well.