Thoughts?

[ridered11]

http://us.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/2009/11/18/boudeau.killings.at.canal.cnn

Just curious as to what others opinions are...

[ALAMX37]

LEt me people go. I dont blame them nor do I find it wrong. I have 0 issue with killing someone who tried to kill me.

[BakerRacing40]

those men should not be behind bars, they should be honored and respected for the duties they have performed. every news networks tries to turn war into "the days of our lives" soap story. the fact is war is war there is no sugar coating to it. men and women have to do things that do not follow the moral code which most live their day to day lives according to. so when the decision comes to be made it is by our morals to live. yes, our soldiers are fighting to protect us and our liberties but few realize when put in some situations, all the glamor and glory bull crap disappears and your acting for what makes you be able to live. i can't say or give enough thanks to our military forces for what they have to do, what they have to choose, what they have to live...

so i finish with this little thought, if you find a snake in your house do you sit it outside your front door? where it could come back and cause harm? no you deal with it where that one is no longer an issue. most people have been put in the same situation as those soldiers, most likely different stakes on the table, but most have done the same.

[flammable]

HEROES

[gcart2]

Originally posted by BakerRacing40
so i finish with this little thought, if you find a snake in your house do you sit it outside your front door? where it could come back and cause harm? no you deal with it where that one is no longer an issue. most people have been put in the same situation as those soldiers, most likely different stakes on the table, but most have done the same.

thats right. these guys are heroes. Im sick that people would think twice about this.

[Pappy]

Once the Iraqis were detained, they were prisoners or detainees. Murdering them was not the correct decision once they were not active combatants.

[TNT]

Originally posted by Pappy
Once the Iraqis were detained, they were prisoners or detainees. Murdering them was not the correct decision once they were not active combatants.

Back to the snake in the grass outside your front door, we’re the victims of 911 “active combatants”?

Wonder if the tables were turned if Irac’s prosecute their soldiers for killing Americans? If so anyone including any that thought of or had ANY involvement at all or held a gun should be tried for the death penalty since over 5,000 Americans dies in 911, that’s mass murder!!!

How OUR justice systems and others don’t fit into the battle field is beyond me!

[Pappy]

Our justice system has zero to do with the battlefield. The military code of conduct, the rules of engagement define what action is to be taken with regards to prisoners of war or detained civilians.

Why would we afford enemies of ours our freedoms and rights based on our justice system?? The military has its own set of rules and murdering a captured enemy isnt one of them.

If you condone the killing of a captured soldier with out any form of military tribunal or trail based on the particuliar countries laws, then you also condone the killing of captured American soldiers and civilians.

As I read the soldiers accounts of another day in another event, the 3 Iraqi's were handcuffed, detained, then the cuffs removed and they were told to run, then shot and killed.

Good read from one of the soldiers (http://www.postandcourier.com/news/2009/jun/21/murderat_thar_thar86727/)

[TNT]

The Military Code of Conduct and our Justice System are not as separated as you think, it’s not like they are two totally separated entities under two completely different set of laws and rules of engagement from different countries.

I only wish I could read the details of all the Irac trials of people involved in killing 5,000 American’s and their imprisonment. All we see on the news these days is trials of soldiers that will keep 911 from happening again and our loved ones from ending up 6 feet under. I bet the ones that their mother, father, son, brothers, sister, killed in 911 or you as a father or mother put your life on the line in the war don’t feel like you. I can bet if one of the ones killed were someone you loved you’d feel entirely different.

All this does is take media focus off what is important winning that war anyway we can, finding enemies that WILL replicate 911 in a heart beat if givin the opportunity, just like the Irac soldiers killed. What ever happen to Bin Laden, and his capture and death execution, or does go to trial now too? How soon we forget 911!

[One_Bad_400]

i agree that is was ok. they tried to kill our americans, they deserve to die. on the other hand. if they stood them up and had target practice with them for a few hours just blowing them apart. thats another story. they shot and left.

[Pappy]

You are about to see on CNN the trail of those behind the 911 attacks as they bring them to NY for the trial. A civilian based trial of those involved in war. A circus that may backfire horribly.

No one here has forgotten 911, but the war in Iraq is a quagmire laden with corruption. I am all for the war in both Iraq and Afghanistan, but feel both have been mis managed to the point our soldiers are being placed in situations that they are ill trained to deal with. Once Husseins regime was removed, Iraq then turned to an insurgancy war that we have proven we cant win as we lack the fortitude to remove the threat on the scale that would be needed. The oppertunity to do this has now passed and we are stuck with what we have for the past few years and into the forseeable future.

We have placed our soldiers in a pit full of snakes that we expect them to deal with. I do not condone the actions of these men but do undertsand the frustration they are dealing with. Change the policy so our soldiers arent dealing with issues that lead to this event.

I have friends and family that have served in this war, lost lives and been forever changed by their wounds, please do not tell me I have to change how I feel based on your assumptions. You wont find anyone who supports our soldiers more then I, and if able, I would be right there with them.

[protraxrptr17]

Do you remember the outrage you felt when you saw video of our soldiers being drug through the streets of Mogadishu? It's the same thing that happened to the Iraqi soldiers right?

It's one of those things that seems like a no brainer at first, but gets really complicated if you look at it hard. I'm just glad I'm not in charge of some of this stuff.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by protraxrptr17
Do you remember the outrage you felt when you saw video of our soldiers being drug through the streets of Mogadishu? It's the same thing that happened to the Iraqi soldiers right?


No, our soldiers bodies were drug through the streets after being killed when their helicopter was shot down during a military operation. The same thing happened in 1979 or 80 when the resuce operation in Iran went wrong. Their bodies were paraded through the streets.

The Iraqi's being discussed here were captured, disarmed, restrained, then set freeonly to be shot appearently on the order of the senior officer. Their bodies were then placed in body bags and taken where ever they were taken.

If you read the link I posted, you will read what happened according to one of the soldiers who did the killing at the other location and some of the reasoning behind the actions. I can understand the why, but that doesnt justify it as being right.

[TNT]

Originally posted by Pappy

The Iraqi's being discussed here were captured, disarmed, restrained, then set freeonly to be shot appearently on the order of the senior officer. Their bodies were then placed in body bags and taken where ever they were taken.

This is what you don't understand because you were not there to understand as the soldier(s). They were never "DISARMED" they only way to 'disarm" them was to kill them! People kill people not guns. You could try to rehability thier hatred towards Americans but they will only laugh as they did. Why put them back in the battled field to add to thousands that are trying to kill you. We will NEVER understand unless we were there.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by TNT
This is what you don't understand because you were not there to understand as the soldier(s). They were never "DISARMED" they only way to 'disarm" them was to kill them! People kill people not guns. You could try to rehability thier hatred towards Americans but they will only laugh as they did.

It is not our soldiers position or responsibilty to "Rehabilitate " nor dole out "Justice" on a P.O.W. or detained civilian. Thankfully the military agrees and justice is being served.

[F-16Guy]

POWs must be treated IAW Geneva Conventions -- there is no such thing as "take no prisoners" these days. Even if the soldiers were "ordered" by a senior officer, they are bound by their Oath and the Code of Conduct to only follow LAWFUL orders. That's why the Guantanamo soldiers were successfully prosecuted. As hard as it may be, you have to follow the ROE for the AOR and not let your emotions dictate your actions. If you violate laws and regulations, regardless of who told you to do it, you go to prison. It's that simple.

[Pappy]

That to me, is the conflict as I look at the info.

“The ROE (rule of engagement) was to kill all military age males on Objective Murray”

The military has not denied that order. However, once a person is a detainee or POW, the rules as you have posted is what I would have followed, and I believe that is why those charged were found guilty of Murder charges.

I will add that I have no problem with the above order. If that is what is needed then the job gets done. It is the fact that the 3 men were incapacitated and detained then shot I have issue with. If the men had immediatley shot the 3 men they would have been well within the ROE of that mission. The bigger picture as I see it is how do we expect our soldiers to follow such orders and yet be bound by the Geneva convention or similiar rules that set a limit on force.

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by Pappy
That to me, is the conflict as I look at the info.

“The ROE (rule of engagement) was to kill all military age males on Objective Murray”

The military has not denied that order. However, once a person is a detainee or POW, the rules as you have posted is what I would have followed, and I believe that is why those charged were found guilty of Murder charges.

The problem with that is that unless the soldiers observed the individuals engaging them (which they didn't), there is no way to determine if they are lawful combatants since they don't wear a uniform or other identifier that distinguishes them from the general public. You can't just execute people based on what you THINK they did, you have to be able to positively identify them as an enemy combatant and then follow the ROE accordingly.

[TNT]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
POWs must be treated IAW Geneva Conventions -- there is no such thing as "take no prisoners" these days. Even if the soldiers were "ordered" by a senior officer, they are bound by their Oath and the Code of Conduct to only follow LAWFUL orders. That's why the Guantanamo soldiers were successfully prosecuted. As hard as it may be, you have to follow the ROE for the AOR and not let your emotions dictate your actions. If you violate laws and regulations, regardless of who told you to do it, you go to prison. It's that simple.

Lol! Would you sign your son or daughter up into that hog wash? Your right Papy we got no chance at winning this war because of that BS! You know it's real easy for everyone to sit back including these law makers and make these stupid laws, wonder how many of them have put thier lives on the line. I know if someone comes at me with a gun I'm not going to try and capture them let the justice system takes it's toll. We all know how bad our justice system is give me a break.

I stand behind our soilders, justice was not served it will be when every Irac soilder that hates us American's because of thier stupid gehaud(sp?) religion and thinks they go to thier God for killing is dead period! And I don't care how it's done just do it!

[Pappy]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
The problem with that is that unless the soldiers observed the individuals engaging them (which they didn't), there is no way to determine if they are lawful combatants since they don't wear a uniform or other identifier that distinguishes them from the general public. You can't just execute people based on what you THINK they did, you have to be able to positively identify them as an enemy combatant and then follow the ROE accordingly.

According to that missons ROE, it was lawful for the out right killing of all military aged males, no one has ever denied that order. The first person killed on that mission was reportedly looking out a window. No hostile fire was reported.

[TNT]

Last I heard those detainies were release and put on Welfare then they put or soilders in jail? Justice was served lol!

[protraxrptr17]

Originally posted by Pappy
No, our soldiers bodies were drug through the streets after being killed when their helicopter was shot down during a military operation. The same thing happened in 1979 or 80 when the resuce operation in Iran went wrong. Their bodies were paraded through the streets.

The Iraqi's being discussed here were captured, disarmed, restrained, then set freeonly to be shot appearently on the order of the senior officer. Their bodies were then placed in body bags and taken where ever they were taken.

If you read the link I posted, you will read what happened according to one of the soldiers who did the killing and some of the reasoning behind the actions. I can understand the why, but that doesnt justify it as being right.

I was kind of agreeing with you. I understand why the American soldiers killed the Iraqis, but it not the right way to do it. Yeah, they shot down the helicopter (part of warfare), but the parading the bodies thru the streets is carrying it too far.

I would like to personally kill all those that threaten us too, but we as humans have to follow some guidelines during war. We don't want our captured soldiers to be tortured because we let something like this slide. I really don't give a hoot about the Iraqis that were killed, I say good riddance, but I don't want them to start torturing our men and sending video to Al Jazeera because of it.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by TNT
Last I heard those detainies were release and put on Welfare then they put or soilders in jail? Justice was served lol!

Im glad you find humor on such a serious issue. The 3 detainees in this incident are dead. Not that I care for them, but I do care for the manner in which a US soldier killed them. If you dont understand this, you will never understand why people serve.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by protraxrptr17


I would like to personally kill all those that threaten us too, but we as humans have to follow some guidelines during war. We don't want our captured soldiers to be tortured because we let something like this slide. I really don't give a hoot about the Iraqis that were killed, I say good riddance, but I don't want them to start torturing our men and sending video to Al Jazeera because of it.

The wrongful killing by US soldiers does just as much to incite further people to take up arms against us, commit more terrorist attacks, it doesnt end. Ive stated before, you want to end this, you kill them all. Not pretty but you wont stop a religious based war using conventional methods.

And this type of behavior is what seperates us from them.....or its supposed to.

[protraxrptr17]

Yes, thats EXACTLY what I was trying to say. You just did a better job.:D

[F-16Guy]

I don't see where the "hogwash" is. The soldiers in question are all highly trained professionals, not a bunch of dummies that were handed a weapon and thrown into the fight. The enemy is embedded in the population, so we, as professional soldiers, have to take extra care not to kill the people we are trying to free. If the soldiers would have witnessed the individuals engaging them, it would not have been outside of the ROE to return fire and kill them. The issue here is that a handfull of professional soldiers took it upon themselves to try, convict, and execute individuals who may or may not have been lawful combatants.

[attaboy]

It's no possible way we can even stand a chance of winning or even surviving this war, if we are the only ones that have to go by rules. We need to throw the rule books out the window and then we will have a fair chance. By playing by the rules we are suppose to be earning respect from other countries. We see how that is working out don't we. I say win this war and they will be forced to respect the USA again. But we can't win with one hand tied behind our back.

[TNT]

Originally posted by Pappy
The wrongful killing by US soldiers does just as much to incite further people to take up arms against us, commit more terrorist attacks, it doesnt end. Ive stated before, you want to end this, you kill them all. Not pretty but you wont stop a religious based war using conventional methods.

And this type of behavior is what seperates us from them.....or its supposed to.

I only find humor is stupid laws and some people that have never stood in front of gun on a battle field think they work. We'll never seperate them from us, we'll never understand thier behavior or religion, we'll never know who is gehaud who is not who will be tomorrow, it's endless correct kill them all! With that said the solders we're correct in what they did. It makes no sense to detain these people justice will not be served and those solders new this. It cost tax payers dollars and our jails are already full anway and once they are released they will kill or try again no doubt. Then we put them on our streats give them food stamps and welfare? :huh

[TNT]

I hate saying to kill innocent people but thats what happen to us on 911. Thier cults are the worse in the world, worse than our Satin worshipers that have never killed that many at once. Makes you wonder how much gehaud will spread through thier culture when the Irac people have no control over thier society. We atlease have some control, they don't without us.

Way I see it anyway but I'm ol school.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by TNT
I only find humor is stupid laws and some people that have never stood in front of gun on a battle field think they work. We'll never seperate them from us, we'll never understand thier behavior or religion, we'll never know who is gehaud who is not who will be tomorrow, it's endless correct kill them all! With that said the solders we're correct in what they did. It makes no sense to detain these people justice will not be served and those solders new this. It cost tax payers dollars and our jails are already full anway and once they are released they will kill or try again no doubt. Then we put them on our streats give them food stamps and welfare? :huh

Please come back to this conversation when you find the fundemental understanding of what this issue is all about.

[TNT]

I'll say it again until we have been on the battlefield personally in this situation noone will understand these soldiers, I think I have a pretty good understanding of them an support thier actions.

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by TNT
I'll say it again until we have been on the battlefield personally in this situation noone will understand these soldiers, I think I have a pretty good understanding of them an support thier actions.
Okay, let's take this out of context to better understand what happened here.

You are a police officer here in the states -- say somewhere bad, like Detroit. You watch criminals go from your custody and through the revolving doors of justice, just to be released again and again. Now, on this particular day, you get shot at in a bad neighborhood. You didn't see who did it, but you and a group of fellow officers end up finding a group of thugs in a house with guns. You didn't see any of them shooting, or even holding, a weapon, but your group decides that instead of arresting them, you are going to march them into an ally and execute them so that they can't be a potential problem down the road. Do you think that would be lawful and ethical?

[Pappy]

Let's not forget that the two soldiers who did the killing purposely roughed each other up afterwards so that their initial story that the 3 iraqis had tried to escape would have merit. One soldier cut the others face, while the other took a punch to the face to make the story have validity. This story was then refuted by the two soldiers when their hearts wouldnt let them live the lie they had told about the incident.

I think their own admission of wrong doing tells the tale of whether this was a right or wrong issue.

[F-16Guy]

Very true. I think that when you're in a combat environment, it's easy to forget the extent to which you can be held accountable for you actions. It's a shame, too, because outside of that situation, I'm sure those guys are great people.

[TNT]

F-16 guy, your analogy of the criminals in the states does not fit the war in Irac. The magnitude and situation is far, far different than a small neighbor hood in east LA or something. Remember 5, 000 where killed in 911, many more in the war. Reason the two soldiers had to cover up their acts is just like the video said no one will understand who has not been in the situation or on the battle field.

I think this says it all and everything I have been trying to say.

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/WAR1.jpg

I know of people that served in NAM that had to kill kids since they strapped suicide bombs to themselves and never knew which one coming up with one, you could to try and run but it’s your life on the line....... There’s an analogy F16 guy. I know of others that would execute these solders in front of everyone to send a message to give up. Some countries have low crime from tatics like that, I use to go to school with a guy that got his hand cut off for stealing not that I agree with that. It’s worked in the past the war tactics and saved American lives, now we have Politian’s trying to make rules from their comfortable homes and offices. I think these people should go to the battlefield and proove their rules work before they impose them on others.

[Pappy]

The reason they tried to have a cover story is because they knew it was wrong!

I took you for having a higher intellect TNT, I was wrong. I geuss you can justify the rape and murder of Iraqi women by US soldiers as well just because 911 occured? One great thing about this country and its military is that we hold accountable those in the ranks that do not follow the rules WE set. I dont expect our soldiers to be perfect, but I do expect a certain level of decency from them, as they expect of themselves. Raping a women, or shooting a person that is detained in my view, as well as the militarys view is not appropriate conduct.

[TNT]

Originally posted by Pappy
I took you for having a higher intellect TNT, I was wrong.

That statement in itself says alot about 'intellegence" I won't do that to you especially since your the moderator and I value your opinion. :D

We can agree to disagree. :D No harm done.

[Pappy]

Well, when you are faced with facts, self incrimanting testimony, a criminal trial where the charged admit the crime...and still refuse to see the wrong in the issue, one has to doubt the ability to understand common logic and reason especially when that info is refuted with hyperbol and bravado that steers clear of the issue it self.

[TNT]

Pappy the only right in this thread is to agree with you or risk being thrown off the site so I got no further logic to say, however most that know me know that I am no dummie! Admit I hate politics but from just looking at the video I formed an opinion I am entitle to despite all your intellect and knowledge on the matter I will differ and will agree with others on this forum that these particular soilders are true AMERICAN HEREO'S PERIOD!

[Pappy]

There is no being thrown off here for not agreeing with me. You have not done one thing that would warrant that. Im sure its an easy out to suggest it as you have, but you know better. What you have done, and continue to do is to ignore the facts, mainly the one that shows the soldiers knew they did a horrible deed and came forward with the truth knowing they would be arrested and charged, and even possibly face the death penalty. That act is the only act I see in any of this that is applaudable.

You have people one here calling these soldiers heroes for murdering 4 unarmed Iraqi civilians that to this day have never been proven to be combatants. And I would feel safe in saying that them nor you looked at any info beyond the video or had any knowledge of the actual facts behind the issue and probably still havent looked into it.

At the end of the day, there is a right and wrong here ,and I think most will agree that they can understand why things like this happen, however they dont have to support it and feel justice has been served with out somehow not supporting our troops. Its this kind of thinking that has us in this mess.

I can see why they did it but I'm pretty much on the fence for this one. I can see the wrong to it but also see why you would think it's right. I'll sit on the fence.

[Pappy]

And to further my point that noone really reads ****.....there are 2 incidents here...its a CRIME that I can mingle two stories about the same issue and no one cares enough to even check it out but will glady form an opinion.

The video describes the killing of 4 Iraqi soldiers that were captured,detained, hauled away and executed. The other describes the story of 3 other Iraqis captured and detained and killed. Two different groups of soldiers were involved, both of which were tried and prosecuted. One occured in 2007, the other in 2006.

[protraxrptr17]

Originally posted by Pappy
Let's not forget that the two soldiers who did the killing purposely roughed each other up afterwards so that their initial story that the 3 iraqis had tried to escape would have merit. One soldier cut the others face, while the other took a punch to the face to make the story have validity. This story was then refuted by the two soldiers when their hearts wouldnt let them live the lie they had told about the incident.

I think their own admission of wrong doing tells the tale of whether this was a right or wrong issue.

Ohhhh, that opens up a whole 'nuther can of worms. I didn' t hear that part. No question about it, actions should be taken. I feel better about what I thought at first. If it was a spur of the moment decision to shoot and ask questions later, it would be different, but this was pretty much murder and cover up. No fence for me.

[BakerRacing40]

ok we know it was unlawful and didn't follow different codes but my question is what would your morals let you do?
would you be willing to cut those zip ties and watch them walk back in to a war zone where they might be armed again in less than two mins?
or would you be willing to put your pistol to the back of someones head and end their life after you believe they just got done shooting at you?

so where do your morals put you? dead right or alive with broken laws weighing on your mind?....

[Pappy]

baker, in complete honesty, I would have followed the ROE and those men would never have made it out of the building alive.

Once they were captured then no, I would not follow the order to execute the prisoners

You also ned to read the facts of why those zip ties were removed and the story behind it



As far as the situation in the video, thats a ****ty deal, but as United States soldiers, they have the duty to hold themselves to a higher standard.

Honestly as I can answer, and yes I realize it goes against what Ibelieve, I probably would have killed the man when he smiled and laughed when asked if he had shot at our soldiers and accepted the outcome. I cant see myself lining up 4 men and executing them. Again, what I believe doesnt always equate into making the right choice.

Clagett said Hunsaker told him, ‘I want to kill these (expletive) because they're terrorists."I pulled the blindfold up on one guy, down on the other,’ Clagett testified at his trial, and Hunsaker took the blindfold off the third man. ‘Hunsaker told them to run. I told them ‘Yalla,’ to get them to run faster. They didn’t run faster, so I raised my weapon. Hunsaker raised his. He shot, then I shot.’ … ‘As soon as they fell, I took off my K-pot (helmet) and dropped my weapon," Clagett testified.

In both of these circumstances, time was not a factor and thought went into the killings. You have to think this through without emotion, something our soldiers dont have the luxury of. And when our own do wrong we have to do the right thing. In both of these cases, no one "found" out about the killings, they were brought out by the soldiers themselves.

(I edited the post because I copied the wrong testimony)

[250x_kyle]

They may not have taken the correct actions; however, if your getting shot at every day and fearing for you and your friends lives it would be tempting to do the same. Ive heard stories from iraq that are pritty eff'd up. personaly if they were the ones that shot at them or not i dont feel that they needed the risk. if they did find bodies in the canal how could they prove those were the guys they killed. soldiers found alot of dead mutilated bodies in the streets every day.