Banshee crank / top end options

[IcutMetl]

Helping my buddy rebuild his Banshee motor after it blew a rod bearing.

I'm more familiar with the 250R's and the different stroke/rod length combos, but not so much with the 'shees. I've done a bit of research about the options using stock cylinders and this is what I've found and the questions I have:

*Stock stroke crank, stock length rods, standard or overbore pistons with factory pin locations- easiest and cheapest way with no fits.

*115mm long rod; stock stroke crank. Broader power and less drastic rod angle. Requires different pistons with raised pin bore. This motor theoretically wouldn't require any spacer plate or re-cut domes...would it?

*4mm stroker; 110mm stock length rod. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this combo would use stock pin bore location, but a spacer plate to maintain proper deck height? Or no spacer, but revised pin location/cut domes? Would the factory ports HAVE to be matched to increased stroke?

*4mm stroker; 115 long rod. This is where I get slightly confused. I would assume it would require a revised pin location, but what about the deck height and/or dome treatment? Again, would the factory ports HAVE to be matched to increased stroke/rod length?


Current cylinders are stock bore; no porting. Factory carbs, DMC916 exhaust, open airbox. Does not want to mess with race fuel, even in a mixture- would rather run premium pump. Currently, we both run Super Techniplate at 40:1. Would be open to stroker crank setup and/or midrange porting. All around riding style. I'm not a Banshee guy, but would tend to think that you could easily build plenty of safe, reliable power on a stock stroke/rod setup. I know you can unlock rediculous amounts of power out of these motors pretty easily. We both like more power, but is either of the long rod/stroker combo's truly worth it for a mix of all conditions?

I would definitely appreciate your input!!

There's only two set-ups, stock and 4mil. There's no long-rod stock stroke set-ups.

There is a LOT of power to be made without going the stroker route. The only real benefit to the 4mil engine is the torque.

I would go with a stock stroke Hotrods/Wiseco crank, that's trued and welded. A nice dune-port. (HJR- Herr Jugs Racing) is a hell of a builder and does some VERY nice porting. His dune port is 275 and will really have a strong mid-range pull. To top it off throw on a cool head with 21cc domes.

You're looking at a VERY reliable, 65hp or so engine. On premium pump gas.

If you go the 4mil route, don't get a spacer plate.

4mil Hotrods/Wiseco crank
Dune-port for 4mil (ported differently then regular)
Wiseco stroker pistons (I believe 795?)
Custom cut domes

I myself want to build a stock-stroke engine. Need the funds though.
With stock carbs though, he'll need to run probably around 340's and 30 pilots. (just an estimate) To really maximize power he shoud look into 28mm carbs.

Oh, a 4mm engine with the same mods and bigger carbs, is probably good for around 70-75 ponies.

[IcutMetl]

I'd bet money that I've seen crank options for a long rod stroker; it's a 4mm stroker crank with the long rods that uses a spacer plate or cut head and pistons with relocated pin bore.

I'm going to strongly suggest a stock stroke setup with good porting. I mean the thing is a wicked ride to begin with.

Originally posted by IcutMetl
I'd bet money that I've seen crank options for a long rod stroker; it's a 4mm stroker crank with the long rods that uses a spacer plate or cut head and pistons with relocated pin bore.

I'm going to strongly suggest a stock stroke setup with good porting. I mean the thing is a wicked ride to begin with.

All the 4mm cranks are long-rods, and all require the custom cut components. Sorry if I didn't quite make that clear, I was tired. haha.
You CAN use the spacer plate and no have to get special porting or head, but all the builders say to stay away from them. Just one more gasket surface to leak and the port timing will be a little off.

Stroke stroke build ftw.

[Justwin]

There is indeed a long rod / stock stroke crank available that uses either blaster pitons (although this wipes out most of you cylinder bore life in 1 go) or wiseco now make these pitons in stock banshee bore sizes.

+4mm long rod is my preferred route - CT Racing do an awesome kit that can potentially make 80 HP -I just won the local supermoto championship using this set -up. No spacer plate required - domes are cut to suit.



CT 400 Banshee (http://www.justwinracing.com/2009/race-reports/20091114-Bishopscourt/index.html)

[tyleroar]

for the money your gonna spend extract power and portind etc you should atleast go ahead and buy a cub 68mm super cubs are to 73 mm mostly you ll find 72s theyre are about 800$ youll spend 5 to 6 on the stoickers and the max bore you can put on them is 64.5 i believe. hot rod makes 4mm w/
+5 rod crank works has a buillet crank you will need that for bores 75mm to 78 the reason you get cheetahs or after market is so that you have mor material to work with. 4 mm is the biggest you can go on a banshee w/o trenching the cases if you go bigger get a 10mm not a 7 they cost the same to build and are both reliable on race gas and it6 will cost you 1000$ to build a 7or a 10 you will not save money at all by building a 7 verses a 10 a10 will have over 100hp no problem and are reliable now for a stock stroke you want to run on pump gas no sense in doing any crank work i dont see how you plan to gain hp youll spend about a grand to gain under 10 ponies? you need to up your compression and run race gas and gain 20on a stock cyl stock stroke welded and true ofcourse so you dont part a crank try and run 16 domes

Originally posted by tyleroar
for the money your gonna spend extract power and portind etc you should atleast go ahead and buy a cub 68mm super cubs are to 73 mm mostly you ll find 72s theyre are about 800$ youll spend 5 to 6 on the stoickers and the max bore you can put on them is 64.5 i believe. hot rod makes 4mm w/
+5 rod crank works has a buillet crank you will need that for bores 75mm to 78 the reason you get cheetahs or after market is so that you have mor material to work with. 4 mm is the biggest you can go on a banshee w/o trenching the cases if you go bigger get a 10mm not a 7 they cost the same to build and are both reliable on race gas and it6 will cost you 1000$ to build a 7or a 10 you will not save money at all by building a 7 verses a 10 a10 will have over 100hp no problem and are reliable now for a stock stroke you want to run on pump gas no sense in doing any crank work i dont see how you plan to gain hp youll spend about a grand to gain under 10 ponies? you need to up your compression and run race gas and gain 20on a stock cyl stock stroke welded and true ofcourse so you dont part a crank try and run 16 domes

Just a dune port on a stock stroke stock cylinder banshee with a stock head will bring you up to 58-60 from 45. Add a head with 20cc domes on top of that and your around 62-65. I don't see any reason to go nuts with the cub cylinders right away when a port job is only 300.

[tyleroar]

a stock cyl ported pistons is going to run you $ 600 if you do the assembely your selfyoull be at a $1000 for a cheetah i would go with the cheetah and that is not anywhere near going crazy you are starting to tap into mild and there is still horsepower to be made with that set up because its not ported yet. there is no replacement for displacement!! Good luck

Originally posted by tyleroar
a stock cyl ported pistons is going to run you $ 600 if you do the assembely your selfyoull be at a $1000 for a cheetah i would go with the cheetah and that is not anywhere near going crazy you are starting to tap into mild and there is still horsepower to be made with that set up because its not ported yet. there is no replacement for displacement!! Good luck

Dude, HJR, one of THE MOST reputable builders in the banshee community, only charges $300 for a dune/play port.

[tyleroar]

yes but they dont charge that for pistons,porting ,boring of the stock sleeve plus the price of your cool heads and interchangeable domes why dont you tell me what they charge for all that because that is what you are talking about doing ive been in the sport for a while grew up on the dunes not my first banshee. i have three in the garage im trying to be realistic because i would hate for some one to start something they cant finish im only 31 but have been into banshees since 91 when all you could work with is stock cylinders. and your right you can make them fast im not saying your wrong but it will cost about what a cheetah or equal is gonna run even if he gets his head (stock) shaved

[tyleroar]

and for a 4mm i should be another 600 that is a hot rod with a tz

[tyleroar]

you should ask cascade about the possibility of setting your squish using thicker base gaskets they will talk you through the measurement and send you the correct gasket they also have some great sealant forgot what its called make sure they would recommend it on what ever set up you decide to go with

[SandPsycho]

I totally agree with Tyler, $4$ you might aswell go with a cub. Those cylinders are ready to bolt up and go..........and I doubt Kevin(Herr) charges 300, closer to 450-500..........just sayin'!

[tyleroar]

and there will be shipping both ways this stuff real nickels and dimes you every time i go to spend a grand it seems to turn out to 1500 1800 bucks you really gotta love it

Originally posted by SandPsycho
I totally agree with Tyler, $4$ you might aswell go with a cub. Those cylinders are ready to bolt up and go..........and I doubt Kevin(Herr) charges 300, closer to 450-500..........just sayin'!

lol it's on his website. $250 for a banshee MX port, $300 for a dune/play port.

Only the drag port is $450.

[SandPsycho]

Its either outdated or just his basic port work, most known builders charge more than that especially here in Cali........either way, the Cub gets my vote!

Originally posted by SandPsycho
Its either outdated or just his basic port work, most known builders charge more than that especially here in Cali........either way, the Cub gets my vote!

Its not outdated and its not basic. lol. Banshee porting isn't that expensive I don't know what you guys are thinking.

The basic port is the mild trail one for 200. MX for 250. Dune/play 300. dune/hillshoot 350. drag 450
For 4mil's you have to add $75 to the porting cost. But I have stock stroke.

[tyleroar]

thats still only part of it. the guy also has to do a topend you still have to ship it they have to ship it back you also said cool heads its the same money

[machwon]

Stock stroke motors really get a bad rap with all the new parts these days. I think a lot of the motor builders would plain just sell you a cub rather than pick up their porting tools any more. I can do you a 350 cylinder porting for $300 for drag, $225 for dune or trail. The drag porting I have has put down over 80 hp at the rear wheels on gas, 85 on alky. The reality is most guys with that kind of power don't even put it all to the ground, they just wheel spin or wheelie and let off.

At just 80 hp you start hitting the limit of needing many extra parts. most guys look at lightening frames, drag alxes, lock up clutches, extended swingarms, override tranny, intakes, carbs, more paddles and the list goes on. Those parts can easily coat another 2k new. The Cub cylinder pretty much require everything from the start.

My order is stock cylinders upto maxed out, pipes and carbs. If you trashed your cylinder and/or crank you might consider a 4mm. The more stock parts that are trashed, the cost effective the cub set ups become. Banshee's ultimately become a power trip and after the stock stuff you might as well go 10mm cubs. You can also build a good one with finding good used stuff if you know what you're looking for. Lot of guys are going bigger or just plain getting out of it.

[tyleroar]

Originally posted by tyleroar
thats still only part of it. the guy also has to do a topend you still have to ship it they have to ship it back you also said cool heads its the same money but



even then thats when you start making the transition where you stard needing straight cuts etc. oh yeah im not saying you cant make power out of them but if you are talking about all that you ca get more out of a cub there is just more to work with i rember when 10mm stock cylinders where the thing but tech is there now for almost the same money so tell me if you port a stock or if you port a cub which one will bring on more power? the cub
this guy also has to buy pistons 200-250 how much do you charge to shave a head?
he also has to ship both ways he has about a 75 150$ machining fee for boring yall gotta do the math if he had a good top end right now and all he had to do is port i would say hell yeah but hes gotta do it all at once either way he goes right now hes talking about different cranks

[SandPsycho]

Machwon, over 80hp on a stock stroke 350? You sure?

[machwon]

Yea, I know what you mean. New pistons, fresh bore, porting stock head mod puts you in the 6-700 range with me. That just plain makes a good banshee motor. But how much do I do with my 100-130 hp cub? I know for myself I have one shee to dune with and one to drag.

[machwon]

Originally posted by SandPsycho
Machwon, over 80hp on a stock stroke 350? You sure?

Yes, I have a chassis dyno as well. PM or e-mail if you want to see a graph. It was in the dyno section but fell off as I posted it there a while ago. I used .040 stock cylinders, no welding, shearer inframes, 34mm pjs off a 250R, stock intakes, stock cut head, v-force reeds.

[tyleroar]

stock stroke?

[machwon]

Yes, stock stroke crank trued and welded.

[tyleroar]

that's a pretty good price im just saying you can bolt up a cheetah and you gonna get 75 no matter what right i don't have a dyno im assuming that seems safe to say.ive raced a stock cyl +7 overridden and we were only even if he didn't red light. i was on gas with a 6speed for 700 bucks yes you will have a faster bike but with more limitation for about a 1000 you can have a faster bike with less limitations. 700s not bad for that though well im not a porter don't have the resource but which one would you rather port there is more to work with with a cheetah do you agree

[2001warriorman]

I dont mean to dig up an old post or anything but what all needs to be done to use a stock stroke crank with +5 rods, what kind of power increase is this looking at, and what about porting on these? I have another motor im rebuilding and a hot rods crank or 3 stock cranks all needing rebuilt. It needs pistons regaurdless and I have 2 sets of unported or a set of ported cylinders. Just looking at my options! Thanks!

[2muchquad]

a banshee with stock stroke and a good port job alongwith pipes is plenty for the real world unless one is all out drag racing.60hp in a 350lb machine is plenty imo.even if one is a 400lb dude its still a lt of power.:D you need different pistons if you go with the 115 rod for the wrist pin location is different.keep it stock and avoid the headaches of messin up ort timing etc..

just remember KISS..

Keep
It
Simple
Stupid:)
no sense of building a grenade because you want every last possible ounce of power,like somebody said earlier,most people will wheelie then let off anyway..lol