250r's in modern MX [Archive]

deathman53

11-06-2009, 03:59 PM

it all has to do with the dollar and BS rules. Rules were changed to race in pro class. Those new rules to bring the new 450's in, nailed the coffin for the 250r's and hybrids. I don't know the rules exactly, but 250r's are allowed in 2 or 3 pro classes, there is something about stock frames in the rules. 2 pro's ran 250r in a recent tt race. One would have done alot better, but had motor issues, he couldn't go more than 3/4 throttle. He was using a stock framed 250r, it was something with the rules, he ran in pro-am class. I could be wrong on some of the details.

No, the 450r is no more hi-tech than the 250r, the motor may be(its also a time bomb with pro mods). Quad chassis hasn't moved past the 88/89 250r based. If anything a laeger narrow, walsh and roll frame design is far better than any oem can do. The 450r frame is very very similar to a 250r frame, that hi-tech is just stuff the marketers want you to believe. They had to sell their new quads, they will tell you anything. I don't know why, but 06-current 450r front end setups are worse than 250r, they push alot in corners.

tommygunnz

11-06-2009, 04:04 PM

why wouldnt the big names try to cut TRX250Rs out of the equation with out 250Rs in all the races they are selling a lot of units

All250R

11-06-2009, 06:24 PM

Evolution in technology is applied to solving a problem. If power is the problem being chased, then an engine that's smaller and has less parts is the more technologically advanced engine. If the problem is emissions and fuel consumption... well valves are better at that aren't they, and then the engine has to be made bigger and run tighter to meet the power problem adequately simply because you needed the valve train to solve your primary problem.

People don't understand technology, not because they are dumb necessarily, but because they haven't designed user products before. Magazines are entertainment, and sales brochures are marketing, but people sometimes assume they're an unbiased technical evaluation, and they're not.

Ask what problem is being solved when evaluating strength of the technology. What is more technologically advanced, a DVD or VHS player? Why?

Derrick Adams

11-07-2009, 09:36 AM

I would say that 250R's are pretty rare these days in MX. I raced one all this season and only ran into 3 others.

I will say though that I let two of my friends run some laps on my R and both sold their 450's to buy one. Well, one ended up with a Hybrid and the other a stock framed 250R. There is simply nothing out there that handles better than a well built 250R chassis.

I can also tell you from experience that 250Rs are still completely competitive in todays MX. Much harder to ride though. The only disadvantage that i've found is if there is deep thick mud. That sucks the power right out of the 2 stroke.

I had so much fun racing mine this year that i'm making a full run at the Nationals next season!

tommygunnz

11-07-2009, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by deathman53
it all has to do with the dollar and BS rules. Rules were changed to race in pro class. Those new rules to bring the new 450's in, nailed the coffin for the 250r's and hybrids. I don't know the rules exactly, but 250r's are allowed in 2 or 3 pro classes, there is something about stock frames in the rules. 2 pro's ran 250r in a recent tt race. One would have done alot better, but had motor issues, he couldn't go more than 3/4 throttle. He was using a stock framed 250r, it was something with the rules, he ran in pro-am class. I could be wrong on some of the details.

No, the 450r is no more hi-tech than the 250r, the motor may be(its also a time bomb with pro mods). Quad chassis hasn't moved past the 88/89 250r based. If anything a laeger narrow, walsh and roll frame design is far better than any oem can do. The 450r frame is very very similar to a 250r frame, that hi-tech is just stuff the marketers want you to believe. They had to sell their new quads, they will tell you anything. I don't know why, but 06-current 450r front end setups are worse than 250r, they push alot in corners. I was referring to the engine as high tech mainly

woodsracer144

11-11-2009, 02:23 PM

shane hitt was racing a tt race some where in the south this summer... along with another old pro... i thikn he to 2nd over all and the motor was running on a bad head gasket and it was a 265 agaist a open mod class for tt

tommygunnz

11-11-2009, 02:50 PM

I wish there was pics or something

quad janern

11-12-2009, 04:55 AM

There is pictures of that race, someone posted them a while ago.

tommygunnz

11-12-2009, 11:14 AM

do u have any clue where they were posted by any chance?

deathman53

11-12-2009, 04:53 PM

http://www.atvriders.com/gallery/2009-atv-extreme-dirt-track-04-pro-practice-photos/index.html

woodsracer144

11-12-2009, 05:02 PM

shane has the sparks quad right?

tommygunnz

11-12-2009, 05:12 PM

Originally posted by deathman53
http://www.atvriders.com/gallery/2009-atv-extreme-dirt-track-04-pro-practice-photos/index.html cool **** how did those 250rs fair?

All250R

11-12-2009, 05:38 PM

Well the 4stroke has a displacement advantage, so if the R was competitive at a 200cc disadvantage, the R did f**in exceptionally!

John Noftsinger

11-12-2009, 07:03 PM

back when 250r,s raced four stroke,s i think there was a 265cc limit against 4-stroke at 440cc ,but the 440,s had more torque ,and started dominating the 250r,s (not to say it wasn,t money motavated towards newer production quad) today,s 450,s would smoke a 250r on the track cause of the traction it has with the 4-stroke motor thats why they are so dominate in dirtbikes more hookup, less spinning like a 2-stroke ,4-stroke,s are the new kings of MX the 250r would be good MAYBE better in flat track,desert racing but then again 4-stroke tech is coming along with the times with efi ,and dohc motors that put out with mods(pro level) 60+ hps/35+torque now!

woodsracer144

11-12-2009, 08:40 PM

dude im sorry but why do you think that BRP and skidoo still runs a 2-stroke... its cheaper and if you know what your doing its cleaner and them damb things are fast as hell... i dont care what any one says but i think if you know how to ride a 2 stroke you could hold your owen... as always who ever has the most amount of money normally should win...
another thing what does hinson make a "slipper clutch" kit? i would have to geuss it make your 4 strokers feel like a 2 stroke when you go up to a corner not? i just strongly feel that the 4 strokes are way too over rated and spendy... i've found when you turn the other way you start new things...

jmo

8686

11-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
back when 250r,s raced four stroke,s i think there was a 265cc limit against 4-stroke at 440cc ,but the 440,s had more torque ,and started dominating the 250r,s (not to say it wasn,t money motavated towards newer production quad) today,s 450,s would smoke a 250r on the track cause of the traction it has with the 4-stroke motor thats why they are so dominate in dirtbikes more hookup, less spinning like a 2-stroke ,4-stroke,s are the new kings of MX the 250r would be good MAYBE better in flat track,desert racing but then again 4-stroke tech is coming along with the times with efi ,and dohc motors that put out with mods(pro level) 60+ hps/35+torque now!

If the 4 strokes were "dominating" the much smaller 2 strokes then why did a 250R 2 stroke win the pro class in the last year it was able to compete? That was in 2003, then in 2004 they went to Pro Production only. And today's 450's DO NOT "smoke" a 250R on the track. I would know first hand as I was the ONLY 250R out there at every single motocross race. My 250R was very competetive with the 4 strokes. All the latest and greatest was out there, too. Even with the huge displacement advantage I pulled a few holeshots. Yeah the 250R is a little harder to ride fast but that's part of the reason I like it. "4 strokes are the new kings of mx"? You read too many magazines.

woodsracer144

11-12-2009, 09:03 PM

Agreed^^^ :devil:

red88r

11-12-2009, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by 8686
If the 4 strokes were "dominating" the much smaller 2 strokes then why did a 250R 2 stroke win the pro class in the last year it was able to compete? That was in 2003, then in 2004 they went to Pro Production only. And today's 450's DO NOT "smoke" a 250R on the track. I would know first hand as I was the ONLY 250R out there at every single motocross race. My 250R was very competetive with the 4 strokes. All the latest and greatest was out there, too. Even with the huge displacement advantage I pulled a few holeshots. Yeah the 250R is a little harder to ride fast but that's part of the reason I like it. "4 strokes are the new kings of mx"? You read too many magazines.

Yeah the 4 strokes are easier to ride and get more power to the ground, but it takes a man 2 hang on for 5 laps on a 250r. I have raced many mx races in many different classes and have never got smoked by a 4 stroke. I had a crf hybird pull me on the straights and then I would catch him in the corners. I eventually passed him on the last lap cuz he was so nervous with me on his tail. It is a good thing I guess for the pro class to get the factories involved but in my opinion it not like it used to be. I just wish they had more 2 stroke classes so I would'nt have to listen to all of the annoying 4 strokes on the line. Although I do like rippin a fat holeshot with my 20yr. old quad!

Derrick Adams

11-13-2009, 07:16 AM

Seems like I read somewhere that there were talks of opening up the 250cc (4 stroke) bike classes to allow 250cc 2 strokes.

Can you imagine if they allowed 450cc 2 stroke quads in PRO Production. No one (I repeat) NO ONE would be on a 4 stroke. 80hp machines at 100 less pounds. I could see that easily.

In all fairness though my 330R is more than capable of running with any of the new 450's. Really comes down to rider more than anything. I ran 12 MX races this season and never finished out of the top 5. I won 4 races. I even took the holeshot on a 18 quad gate. Point is, they are still more than competitive.

I will agree that they are much harder to ride though. Takes alot more rider input.

89rwfo

11-13-2009, 07:57 AM

x2 ^^^^^^^^

woodsracer144

11-13-2009, 09:45 AM

yeah they let the 250 2 strokes run with teh 250f's this year.... im i dont know why there wasnt more 2 stokes out there... i think a 450CC 2-stoke would be hard to handle... you would have to gear that baby really low because it would be wicked fast! haha :devil:

racerx573

11-13-2009, 10:06 AM

In the end, it's all rider IMO..

Throw Bubba Stewart on a 125 2-stroke and he'd still probly win against 450's...

I mean come on the dude laps other pro riders, lol.. (wow that would suck being pro, and getting lapped.)

Rider preference and rider skill.

A smart, aggressive, fast rider will win no matter what they're on.

Another good thing about the 250R, is that it's a silent killer... those guys with their 100 db 4-stroke pipes will never hear ya comin, til ya pass 'em!! :devil:

It's all monkey see, monkey do these days.. just like it was back then.

I grew up on the original Huevos vids and Quatros Locos... it was all Laeger 250R's... same with at the tracks... so what did 12 year old racerx573 want? a Laeger 250R...

All the pros switched to hybrids... so next thing all the C class kids with $200,000 totor-homes are building $20,000 hybrid quads like the pro's

All these kids these days see Wienen and Wimmer out there winning on Kawies/Zukis... so they want to ride what the pros are riding...

You can race a Suzuki, KTM, or Can-Am outa the box...BUT all the amateurs and slow guys with money are still putting Walsh/Fox setups on them... WHY?

Monkey-See, Monkey-Do.

It's human nature...
"keepin' up with the Joneses"

Except when Jones was on his R, no one could keep up with him :p

woodsracer144

11-13-2009, 10:16 AM

i agree with you about the monkey see monkey to... i would love to have one of each quad bill ballance and j jones rode and raced... esp. the sparks PV motors...

Lasher

11-13-2009, 10:35 AM

I have MX raced a 250R since 1999.

In the beginning it was 250R/Banshees - 250R ruled.
Then came the 400ex - 250R still ruled.
Then came the Hybrids - was close call.
Now production 450s - where is the 250R to compete?

My 89 250R was always competitive with the quads of anytime frame, it came down to rider.

This past year I got a Walsh 250R and handling wise...no quad on the track can touch it. With a Sparks motor, I am right there with any of the production quads. Some have more power, but this winter I plan on a 330pv upgrade. That should really surprise a lot of people on the track.

In talking with a lot of the "old school" people at the track, that know what a 250R is capable of...say the same thing.

NOTHING OUT TODAY CAN TOUCH THE 250R handling. NOTHING!

Power...sure the newer 450s have more punch than a stock cylinder 250R, but put a bigger motor (310, 330, 350) and forget it. I will let you know this coming season how it does.

By the way, my son raced the Walsh at the last race of the year in the Sport 15 class (400 4 stroke limit) and was able to easily pull the holeshot, even sleeping on the gate.

It is a riot to to be all over the 4 strokes butt on the track. Watching those guys pick a line and try to hold it, while I am all over the place trying to pass. I swear they get whiplash from me picking any line I want in the turns.

But kids today don't care. My son wants a 4 stroke for next season...why? Because everyone else has one, simple as that. But you have to love that $150 - 45 minute top end change for a new motor....what does it take on a 4 stroke?

skyeryder

11-13-2009, 11:23 AM

Let me say this first 250R is the best quad ever built, I've owned two a CT330 and CT310 they flat out haul and handle better than anything out there.

Now to my ??? will the new GasGas 300 two stroke be legal in Nationals, it said it has 50hp stock, I'd have cheer on any pro that threw a leg over that "production quad"

But for what it cost you can buy a top of the line R!!!

FL-R

11-13-2009, 03:00 PM

[i]

Except when Jones was on his R, no one could keep up with him :p [/B]
^^^^ No one could touch him.
Last night i was riding at a local track and im the only R (whats new), I have a stock ported jug, 4 year old piston and rings and PEPs. I was all over their ****, they couldnt pull me out of the corners and it was nice and muddy.

tommygunnz

11-13-2009, 03:16 PM

I have a buddy with a 86 TRX and he always beats the 450s drag racing and I also have a friend with a 90 LT250 and hes smoked a yfz450 and kfx450R around here why rip the trails and any field we find for fun but decide what bike is fastest only by lining them up

Derrick Adams

11-14-2009, 08:08 AM

I'm still waiting on more info on the new GasGas. I want to find out pricing and specs, but I would definately consider a purchase.

woodsracer144

11-14-2009, 09:07 AM

i hope its not 9 grand like it was before...

tommygunnz

11-14-2009, 11:04 AM

the gas gas looks sweet but at that price it makes me wonder if its worth it just think what can be done to a trx for that price plus trx parts will be easier to get for years to come

skyeryder

11-14-2009, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by tommygunnz
the gas gas looks sweet but at that price it makes me wonder if its worth it just think what can be done to a trx for that price plus trx parts will be easier to get for years to come

that was kinda my thought also, but maybe some of the other manufacturers will rethink the 2-stroke.....

Derrick Adams

11-14-2009, 01:15 PM

I think the only way that would happen is if the Gas Gas took off at the nationals, kind of like the Cannondales did back in the day.

If a couple pro's jumped on some new 2 strokes and started winning races I bet you would see two things.

1) People jumping on the band wagon in a hurry.

2) AMA change Pro-Production to 4 strokes only.

tommygunnz

11-14-2009, 03:18 PM

youre right Im sure they could win with the right riders but that might not happen.How many gas gas dealers will have that quad in the usa right on the show room floor?

John Noftsinger

11-14-2009, 06:56 PM

I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome ! and if they change rules on vtwin motors it would really be some bad ***** 4-stroke,s.

tommygunnz

11-14-2009, 07:01 PM

woodsracer144

11-14-2009, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome ! and if they change rules on vtwin motors it would really be some bad ***** 4-stroke,s.

im sorry but you are a dumb ***... the trx 250r has a counterblancer... its not like rm kx yz or cr 250 125 or 500 is in it with out a counterblancer... my 250r doesnt vib any more then a 4 poke. and the reason that they went to the 4 pokes is to try something new for quads... yamaha started to make a 4 stroke mx bike so why wouldnt they try it in the quad...

tommygunnz

11-15-2009, 02:37 PM

TRX250R KING OF ALL TIME! :devil:

All250R

11-15-2009, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I think they should let 250rs at a regulated ccs limit race ,but to build one would cost twice what a new 450 would for one, two the vibration of the two-stroke at the end of race would fatigue rider alot more giving 4-strokes the win ,why did one of the best riders in the sport switch from 250r to z400 first was hybrid in 2000 won with it won again in 02 ,03 almost won both pro-pro-production 04,he said the 4-stroke was easier to ride with less fatigue and that Z had 50+ hps at 440cc .why did every rider then switch up as well they saw an advantage to the 4-stroke over the 2-stroke .emissions ,honda,(not making new 250r) are reasons why they aren,t racing anymore ,love to see them go head to head with 4-stroke myself would be awesome ! and if they change rules on vtwin motors it would really be some bad ***** 4-stroke,s.
How much does it really say about an engine that needs 440cc's to make 50hp? So what regulation on cc's is your idea? If it's not equal displacement, then what difference does it make? 4strokes need a handicap cheater to compete against a 250 2stroke so just add more cc's until people selling 4strokes get their way with a win on the MX track?

It's a fu**ing joke to even sit and think about what is more competitive when the odds aren't even stacked evenly, and you guys that don't get the punch line are part of the humor. Pound for pound the TRX250R is the best racing quad ever made. Bring 4strokes down to 250's and then lets talk about what's more competitive. Otherwise keep dreaming your way into bigger cc's until 4strokes with all their mess of extra parts come out a winner... thumb's up for 4strokes - they're the best!!! yaahhhh!!! :macho

atv fan 28

11-15-2009, 08:57 PM

racing these days its all about money. i think if a manufacturer would sponser a rider no matter what they rode, alot of them would choose the 250R over the 4 stroke! i own both, but i enjoy the 250R more!

Black Sheep

11-15-2009, 09:24 PM

I love these 2 vs. 4 stroke arguments.

I'm old enough to remember when the racing scene was dominated by 2 strokes and everybody complained that they wanted a competitive racing 4 stroke.

To even show how old i am I remember when 4 strokes ruled the mx world and 2 strokes were considered a "fad"

Me personally I like both but, I really enjoy beating all the big bore 250's and 500 two strokes with my basically stock 450 four stroke. :devil:

atv fan 28

11-15-2009, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
I love these 2 vs. 4 stroke arguments.

I'm old enough to remember when the racing scene was dominated by 2 strokes and everybody complained that they wanted a competitive racing 4 stroke.

To even show how old i am I remember when 4 strokes ruled the mx world and 2 strokes were considered a "fad"

Me personally I like both but, I really enjoy beating all the big bore 250's and 500 two strokes with my basically stock 450 four stroke. :devil: stock 450 which is 100 pounds lighter? btw you build some sick trikes!!

Black Sheep

11-15-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by atv fan 28
stock 450 which is 100 pounds lighter? btw you build some sick trikes!!

if i was racing quads maybe but, i'm racing against other trikes :D

...and thank you

All250R

11-16-2009, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by Black Sheep

Me personally I like both but, I really enjoy beating all the big bore 250's and 500 two strokes with my basically stock 450 four stroke. :devil:
lol!
Cool work with the trikes tho! Enjoyed your site.

destey

11-16-2009, 08:42 AM

4 strokes produce less hp, lots more parts, heavier

But are eco friendly. When your sport faces being banned by the liberals being eco friendly is priority # 1.

Make no mistake manufacturers are in business to make money by selling quads, they're not in business to make the best quad. Mfg's see where the law / polticics are headed and if they want to stay in business they will (well they already did) knuckle under.

Its just like the snowmobile industry. Mfg's watch the election cycle, they see the democrats win, they know what kinds of laws the dems pass. They conform ahead of time so they can tell Pelosi "see we're self policing ourselves, we're ahead of the curve. Don't need govt intervention" So the socialists will turn their big guns elsewhere (maybe towards immigration or healthcare).

If the mfgs kept cranking out 2 strokes, there'd be a bill titled "Clean Air Act" where every aspect of atv, snowmobiles, etc would be micromanaged as socialists do best.

racerx573

11-16-2009, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by Lasher
But you have to love that $150 - 45 minute top end change for a new motor....what does it take on a 4 stroke?

Dude I know what you mean. I don't don't even know how to change the top end on a 4-stroke... I am screwed... hahaha.

I had to do a top end swap in less than 20 minutes at race once... me and my buddies pulled it off... kinda sucks breaking it in was the holeshot/moto, lol

Puttin' pipe springs on kickin' it over rolling right into the gate!! :devil:

Lasher

11-16-2009, 12:00 PM

In our local racing series (NEATV) they are talking about rules limiting the switching of "race quads" to "practice quads" during the race day...and even about swapping motors.

But as racerx573 said...you can change the top end between motos without a problem on a 250R...try that with 4 stroke. Even the pro mechanics in our series have stated that repair to a 4 stroke on race day is a joke.

tommygunnz

11-16-2009, 01:06 PM

Im loving this thread:D I have to bring up the point that people say its not fair to put a high displacement 2stroke against a 4stroke but if the 4stroke is is so efficient at putting the power to the ground and the 2stroke isnt why isnt that fair? I think theyre trying to faze out all of our beloved 2stroke bikes they might be able to play the guys who wanna race with higher ccs(still less than 4stroke)but the cant stop us from tearing up the trails and smoking our buddys quads in friendly drags:devil:

Honda 250r 001

11-16-2009, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by tommygunnz
TRX250R KING OF ALL TIME! :devil:

i completely agree, but the 2-stroke needs to be fuel injected or they will die because of emissions

Lasher

11-16-2009, 02:29 PM

Another thing that I find interesting...

I read a bunch of dirt bike forums as well. And it seems that they (the bike guys) are switching back to 2 strokes.

A lot of people I have talked to, say the expense of racing a 4 stroke is getting out of hand, especially with the economy as it is now.

Sure...guys that buy quads/bikes for play riding love them but racers are getting tired of huge repair costs when racing stuff happens.

Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.

tommygunnz

11-16-2009, 02:47 PM

All250R

11-16-2009, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Lasher

Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.
Well that's a broad statement. It's up to the dominant manufacturer's what we get to buy, not technology. EPA compliant 2strokes are in EvinRude outboard motors for example. No one can say two strokes are dead who are boating. Honda and the other 3 are just so dominant in the dirt bike, street bike, and ATV market that it seems the end is on us. If company's like Husky, Aprilia, KTM, etc can make better products than Honda and market it well, the choice will be out there. Make no mistake, it's not about a lack of technology to make the 2stroke emissions compliant and able to put them on show room floors - it's the japanese manufacturers' business plans, the same business that bent the displacement rules to make them competitive against an otherwise superior machine.

Anyone still think an equal displacement 4stroke is faster? Read this: http://www.gizmag.com/go/2542/

quote:
"Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki sold thousands of 250 two-strokes based around their racing machines and many of the biggest names in motorcycle sport got their start in the 250 production racing class. In Grand Prix racing, the two-stroke quickly became unbeatable. Producing an unreliable 50bhp in the sixties, the development of the two-stroke racing motorcycle continued at breakneck speed for four decades, with the top 250s of today producing 100bhp plus.

Throughout the sixties the wail of expansion chambers slowly but surely banished the roar of four-stroke racing machinery at world championship level, at first in the smaller classes, and eventually in all classes.

...The need for harsher emission standards for road-going machinery was having an opposite effect on the two-stroke's success on the road however."

if you like the 4stroke feel, that's great. No problem. For the rest of us, 4strokes are a cockroach problem not a racing platform.

tommygunnz

11-16-2009, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by All250R
Well that's a broad statement. It's up to the dominant manufacturer's what we get to buy, not technology. EPA compliant 2strokes are in EvinRude outboard motors for example. No one can say two strokes are dead who are boating. Honda and the other 3 are just so dominant in the dirt bike, street bike, and ATV market that it seems the end is on us. If company's like Husky, Aprilia, KTM, etc can make better products than Honda and market it well, the choice will be out there. Make no mistake, it's not about a lack of technology to make the 2stroke emissions compliant and able to put them on show room floors - it's the japanese manufacturers' business plans, the same business that bent the displacement rules to make them competitive against an otherwise superior machine.

Anyone still think an equal displacement 4stroke is faster? Read this: http://www.gizmag.com/go/2542/

quote:
"Yamaha, Suzuki and Kawasaki sold thousands of 250 two-strokes based around their racing machines and many of the biggest names in motorcycle sport got their start in the 250 production racing class. In Grand Prix racing, the two-stroke quickly became unbeatable. Producing an unreliable 50bhp in the sixties, the development of the two-stroke racing motorcycle continued at breakneck speed for four decades, with the top 250s of today producing 100bhp plus.

Throughout the sixties the wail of expansion chambers slowly but surely banished the roar of four-stroke racing machinery at world championship level, at first in the smaller classes, and eventually in all classes.

...The need for harsher emission standards for road-going machinery was having an opposite effect on the two-stroke's success on the road however."

if you like the 4stroke feel, that's great. No problem. For the rest of us, 4strokes are a cockroach problem not a racing platform. GOOD STUFF:devil:

8686

11-16-2009, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Lasher
Another thing that I find interesting...

I read a bunch of dirt bike forums as well. And it seems that they (the bike guys) are switching back to 2 strokes.

A lot of people I have talked to, say the expense of racing a 4 stroke is getting out of hand, especially with the economy as it is now.

Sure...guys that buy quads/bikes for play riding love them but racers are getting tired of huge repair costs when racing stuff happens.

Direct injected 2 strokes would be awesome, but I have come to realize that the 2 stroke days are over.

The 2 stroke days are so not over! The dirt bike industry is usually a couple years ahead of the quads in everything they do. Like previously stated, the dirt bike guys are already realizing that the 4 strokes aren't worth the money to maintain and they are switching back to the 2 strokes. Especially now that the amateur AMA rules evened the playing field allowing a CR250 to race against a CRF250. It won't be long until that gets ugly for all the 2 stroke haters. Hopefully somehow the quads won't be far behind.

red88r

11-16-2009, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by 8686
The 2 stroke days are so not over! The dirt bike industry is usually a couple years ahead of the quads in everything they do. Like previously stated, the dirt bike guys are already realizing that the 4 strokes aren't worth the money to maintain and they are switching back to the 2 strokes. Especially now that the amateur AMA rules evened the playing field allowing a CR250 to race against a CRF250. It won't be long until that gets ugly for all the 2 stroke haters. Hopefully somehow the quads won't be far behind.

I heard the only reason the AMA is allowing the 2 srokes to run is to rid all the manufactures of their left over bikes. Don't know if this is true or not-just what I heard. I only seen like one at Millville this year.

racerx573

11-16-2009, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by Lasher
In our local racing series (NEATV) they are talking about rules limiting the switching of "race quads" to "practice quads" during the race day...and even about swapping motors.

But as racerx573 said...you can change the top end between motos without a problem on a 250R...try that with 4 stroke. Even the pro mechanics in our series have stated that repair to a 4 stroke on race day is a joke.

That would suck for motor swaps.. esp if you threw a rod or tranny...

BUT, a suggestion you could bring up is...

If the motor is to be swapped, it must be tech inspected first and the refs notified prior. This way there can be no argument, that the displacement of the motor to be swapped in should be equal to or less than the motor it is replacing.

All250R

11-17-2009, 12:47 AM

Lasher

11-17-2009, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by 8686
Especially now that the amateur AMA rules evened the playing field allowing a CR250 to race against a CRF250.

While I have not confirmed this with the officials at NEATV...but I heard they will allow even displacement in their classes.

So you can run up to a 450 2 stroke against those 4 pukes...

Lasher

11-17-2009, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by racerx573
That would suck for motor swaps.. esp if you threw a rod or tranny...

BUT, a suggestion you could bring up is...

If the motor is to be swapped, it must be tech inspected first and the refs notified prior. This way there can be no argument, that the displacement of the motor to be swapped in should be equal to or less than the motor it is replacing.

They were having a big discussion on their website, but they took down the posts because it was going no where fast.

I do know that they are limiting the pro class to 450cc and something about the motor matching the frame numbers. The discussion got a little ugly when they talked about changes on race day due to break downs.

NEATV is a very family type series (with hard core racing) and they are trying to keep it that way. So I have faith that they will make the right call on the rules for next year.

But I heard that all the pros (in national series I think) were running big bore motors. And I think the AMA is limiting the national series to 450cc limits as well, but I might be wrong.

D Bergstrom

11-17-2009, 10:26 AM

You guys know the reason two strokes are no longer made in great numbers? It is because of us, the consumer, we are not buying them! The EPA did ban them, but it does not ban “competition only” machines. So, yes the banshee is gone, but that is why KTM, Yamaha, etc. can still produce 2 stroke bikes, they are for “competition use” only. There is no conspiracy, the other bike makers got rid of them for one reason, they could not sell them, the majority of riders want a four stroke, simple as that. (Alright, disclaimer time, this all relates to bikes, as other then the Banshee, two stroke quads have not been produced in a very long time.) I really do not see manufacturers putting money into two strokes again, (especially in this current economy) I really do not think they would sell. I know I see a lot of “racers want two strokes” in this thread. Well guess what, how many bikes/quads get sold for racing? A very small number actually get raced, most are used by the recreational riders. Guess what, they want something easier to ride, I doubt many of them would buy a two stroke. So again, how many two strokes would manufacturers actually sell?

I have a 250R that I really enjoy riding, but guess what, I race my four strokes. Why? They are so much easier to ride! I can ride the same pace for longer with the four stroke. The only place my 250R has a advantage is the tight twisty stuff, but again, only if I am fresh. Once fatigue sets in, that’s it, give me the four stroke back.

On to displacement. Seems everyone thinks the 450's have an advantage over a 250 two stroke. This is probably true, and I believe a two stroke should be allowed more displacement to compete against a 450. Do I think both should be equal? NO! My 250R has a 330 kit, and it smokes my 450's. Lets say you could have equal displacement. You really think a racer could hold on to a 450cc two stroke and be competitive for the entire race? No way, comes back to easier to ride again.

So, these are just my views on the entire two stroke vs four stroke debate. I really do like my 250R, but for racing, I can not beat my four strokes.

Doug

EDIT:

I guess I should actually answer the original question, could a 250 be competitive in modern MX? YES! Even at the 250 displacement. Remember, it is not who has the fastest quad, it is the best rider. The reason a certain rider wins does not have much to do with what bike he rides, it has more to do with rider skill. I remember a few years ago, one of the dirt bike mags did a story. Basically they took an amateur MX rider and put him on a 450 bike, then put pro rider Ryan Hughes on a 450 bike, and had them race one lap around a MX track. Ryan smoked him. They then put Ryan on a 125, and had them race again. Ryan still beat him. Then Ryan was on an 80, guess what, he still beat him! Just goes to show that rider ability has a lot more to do with it then what bike you ride. Granted, pros racing pros is a little different, but still, the best rider is going to win, not the best bike in most cases.

woodsracer144

11-17-2009, 10:58 AM

um.. epa is part of it but then you tell me epa is sayin that every ski doo sled is being raced in some sort!

Derrick Adams

11-17-2009, 12:50 PM

I'm pretty sure if I had a 450cc 2 stroke quad that I could tune the power to be more than ridable for MX and be just as easy to ride as a 4 stroke. I'm sure the power delivery would be a bit harsher but probably not as much as you would think. My 330 has a very smooth power delivery.The light weight makes all the difference, for me, on the track.

I was just reading a thread this morning where someone is making new cases for the CR500 to accept a counter balancer. When those are done, look for a TRX500R to be sitting in my garage!

D Bergstrom

11-17-2009, 03:23 PM

atvmxr

11-17-2009, 03:47 PM

its no problem for me to have 500cc smoker out on the MX track :macho

All250R

11-17-2009, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I'm pretty sure if I had a 450cc 2 stroke quad that I could tune the power to be more than ridable for MX and be just as easy to ride as a 4 stroke. I'm sure the power delivery would be a bit harsher but probably not as much as you would think. My 330 has a very smooth power delivery.The light weight makes all the difference, for me, on the track.

I was just reading a thread this morning where someone is making new cases for the CR500 to accept a counter balancer. When those are done, look for a TRX500R to be sitting in my garage!
Absolutely. a 450cc 2stroke would have so much displacement it could be tuned to outmatch most every characteristic of a 450cc 4stroke. One 330 is not a comparison of how a 450cc tuned by the amazing talent at Honda for MX specifically against 4strokes would compete.

I appreciate Bergstrom's view, but you're underestimating what a 2stroke designed to slaughter a 4stroke of equal displacement would do. The big 4 are not making 4strokes because no one wants a 2stroke. People are buying 4strokes because that's what they wanted to sell. It's purely naive conclusion to think otherwise. It's not a coincidence that their product line changed along side with EPA benchmarks mandated for them to sell products in the US/California. There is a cause effect relationship there and it has nothing to do with 2strokes not performing well enough on a race track. Honda and the like needed a replacement for the 250cc two stroke and the only way they could make one that would make people accept a 4stroke as a race bike was to make it larger and on par with a nascar engine in a single cylinder version. They still sell 400ex's with a reliable XR engine to consider buying in case you thought a 450cc race engine is a reliable ride.

By the way, fine by them that they're more expensive in parts. The manufacturers sell bikes to get you to buy parts, not to sell you a bike. When you buy a printer from HP for $70 that has all these parts and stuff it does, they're not making a profit - they make the profit when you need ink for that whizbang do it all printer.

Do you really think Honda is not capable of understanding how to make a product that people will or won't buy? Do you not also think they could make a 2stroke that would stomp a 4stroke, when they, Honda themselves make a GP 250cc 2strokes making almost 100hp? Do you also not wonder why they don't want 250cc strokes to compete against their 250 4strokes that they want to sell you? Really, that doesn't strike you as an odd coincidence? 2strokes aren't good racing engines after all right?

To illustrate using 3rd party information, I posted a link and EVEN pulled quotes to make it easier to read on how 2strokes killed off 4strokes in a battle of pure competition cc per cc. It's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact demonstrated by history that if 4strokes aren't given a handicap the product line favors the two stroke. But don't take my/our word for it. Open up Google. Is the product landscape between 4strokes and 2strokes still not crystal clear?? If not, put yourselves on a mailing list. I've got some really expensive products plastered in banners, and in magazines to sell just to you. Actually all I'd have to do is find all the people that think that a 2stroke engine is outdated technology. lol

Mrs. SFRacing

11-17-2009, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
if i was racing quads maybe but, i'm racing against other trikes :D

...and thank you How is the rear shock treating you>>>>sf

tommygunnz

11-17-2009, 03:58 PM

a few months back in dirtwheels they said they were gonna do a shootout that consists of a TRX450R vs a eddie sanders TRX250R and it didnt come out so I actually contacted dirtwheels and they said its not worth it the 250 is king! ok I was joking about that but they said its taking longer than expected and it should be in a early 2010 issue I cant wait Ill pick that issue up but as of the past few years I only skim through at the news stand.TRX450 vs eddie sanders 250 I cant wiat!

All250R

11-17-2009, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by tommygunnz
a few months back in dirtwheels they said they were gonna do a shootout that consists of a TRX450R vs a eddie sanders TRX250R and it didnt come out so I actually contacted dirtwheels and they said its not worth it the 250 is king! ok I was joking about that but they said its taking longer than expected and it should be in a early 2010 issue I cant wait Ill pick that issue up but as of the past few years I only skim through at the news stand.TRX450 vs eddie sanders 250 I cant wiat!
Guys... come on... Who pays more for advertising, Honda, et. al., or ESR? For sure I'm speculating here, but I think that might have been a mistake on ESR's part if they are volunteering for the test. If Honda is involved on some level, the ESR won't be the winner is where I'd put my money. Dirt Wheels as a company wants to make money from sponsors. They are NOT a scientific journal comparing engineering effort. Come on guys think for a minute.

tommygunnz

11-17-2009, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by All250R
Guys... come on... Who pays more for advertising, Honda, et. al., or ESR? For sure I'm speculating here, but I think that might have been a mistake on ESR's part if they are volunteering for the test. If Honda is involved on some level, the ESR won't be the winner is where I'd put my money. Dirt Wheels as a company wants to make money from sponsors. They are NOT a scientific journal comparing engineering effort. Come on guys think for a minute. Im just excited to see a 250R in a shootout in a mag again I think its impossible for the 450R to own the 250 all out.The 250 should do well we'll have to see though,I wonder if theyre gonna put the new gas gas 300 2stroke against the 450s.You have good points but Im glad to see a mag put a 250 in a shootout especially a eddie sanders TRX

Derrick Adams

11-17-2009, 04:52 PM

I agree. I think the 450 will win only out of politics. I read an article awhile back in Dirtwheels where the writer was comparing his old MX 250R to his new MX 450R. He said that his 450 handled better. I don't think I believe that. He may have thought that in his mind to justify spending $10,000 sitting up his new quad.

I have had more than one person ride my 250R and choose to replace their 450R because of handling. The 250R chassis is still to date the best handling chassis ever built. I think the YFZ is close. If they ever got smart and added more rake to the front of their frame, they would have a winner.

88-310r

11-17-2009, 06:55 PM

The big manufacturers is a monkey see monkey do world. Yamaha introduced a 450 and people bought it. Then, they all brought out a 450. It is all about money to them. They could care less about the 20 year old 250R.

tommygunnz

11-17-2009, 11:24 PM

You said it best the big companies knew how good sales could get by bringing ATV sponsorship Back and paying to race the 450s.not that it has anything to do with this but how sweet would it be if a lot of the parts for the 450 were designed to be interchanged with the older 2stroke racers! Just thinking even though discontinued models don't matter once they've made their cash
Originally posted by 88-310r
The big manufacturers is a monkey see monkey do world. Yamaha introduced a 450 and people bought it. Then, they all brought out a 450. It is all about money to them. They could care less about the 20 year old 250R.

John Noftsinger

11-22-2009, 09:17 AM

suzuki 450 best mx quad! IF the AMA let 2-strokes race with 450 4-stroke then let the 4-stroke have 450vtiwin motor, the rule now dont allow for twin cylinder motors . (future 4-stroke) fuel -injected 450-550 Vtwin race quad would be ultimate race quad. IMO.

8686

11-22-2009, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
suzuki 450 best mx quad! IF the AMA let 2-strokes race with 450 4-stroke then let the 4-stroke have 450vtiwin motor, the rule now dont allow for twin cylinder motors . (future 4-stroke) fuel -injected 450-550 Vtwin race quad would be ultimate race quad. IMO.

The ultimate race quad has already been made. It is so good that the AMA won't allow it in the pro ranks. The fact that the crappy 4 strokes need a huge 450 cc engine to compete with a little 250 cc 2 stroke is a joke in itself.

tommygunnz

11-22-2009, 03:54 PM

All250R

11-23-2009, 01:53 AM

Originally posted by 8686
The ultimate race quad has already been made. It is so good that the AMA won't allow it in the pro ranks. The fact that the crappy 4 strokes need a huge 450 cc engine to compete with a little 250 cc 2 stroke is a joke in itself.
This man thinks like I do.

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
suzuki 450 best mx quad! IF the AMA let 2-strokes race with 450 4-stroke then let the 4-stroke have 450vtiwin motor, the rule now dont allow for twin cylinder motors . (future 4-stroke) fuel -injected 450-550 Vtwin race quad would be ultimate race quad. IMO.

End affirmative action for 4strokes! Get a grip and stop handicapping for the inferior machine.
http://twostrokemotocross.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/end_affirmative_action_yellow.jpg

woodsracer144

11-23-2009, 09:37 AM

that counter blanced cr500 would be bad ***!

i agree with the monkey see monkey do... i wish shane hitt ran a few more of those races on his 250r... that was crazy! there was a guy running xc by me on a 88 250r and ran 40+ and would beat alot of the B riders... it was crazy... then they ended up getting a 450r for his son and his son didnt like it and wanted the old mans r! so the old boy took the 450 and the son was rippin around on the 250r... im not sure how the son did... the year he started racing the 250r i didnt go to any of those races...

buford

11-23-2009, 06:00 PM

I think the 4 stoke has ruined MX racing in both motorcycle and atv racing simply because the caliber of rider has gone down to become a pro.

Real men rode 2 strokes

thanks why I don't watch it anymore. It's boring.

tommygunnz

11-23-2009, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by buford
I think the 4 stoke has ruined MX racing in both motorcycle and atv racing simply because the caliber of rider has gone down to become a pro.

Real men rode 2 strokes

thanks why I don't watch it anymore. It's boring. you couldnt of said it better its like your words came straight from my mouth good stuff:cool:

buford

11-24-2009, 10:25 AM

I am going to update the statement I made a bit since I didn't get much time to respond on the last post I made.

There is good talented pro riders in both motorcycle and atv racing. What I ment by my statements is it's easier to ride a 4 stroke, it doesn't take near the skill to be smooth on it than compared to a 2 stroke. Your fitness level needs to be high in any form of racing but it needs to be higher on a 2 stroke. You have to master how to come out of corners on a 2 stroke in a controlled spin of the rear tires, 4 stroke much more predictable. All the manufacturers were trying to make 2 strokes run like 4 strokes with the power valves and such back 8-10 years ago and now they are making 4 strokes run like 2 strokes, that's why a 4 stroke can't stay together.

I was reading a 2000-2001 back issue of 4 wheel atv action this morning just for kicks (it still had mostly 2 stroke articles and racing in it although the 4 stroke hybrids were starting to pop up)
The article was the final GNC race recap for the year. Doug Gust (I love this old guy, I'm old too) was going to come in 5th for the year on his not sure who he was backed by 250r, a couple new young guys were gunning for the championship and I don't remember who won it. I don't know if Gust was having problems mechanically or not to come in 5th but more than likely that old 250r was just plain wearing him out. then he comes out and wins a championship or two (I think) on a Suzuki 450 in his mid 30's if I'm not mistaken. I'm not taking anything away from the guy, my bet (to a point) is he refocused himself and got in shape. I'm not talking smack, I couldn't go out and give him a battle on an electric quad but let's see it on a say 300 cc 250r motor which would easily compete against the 450's. It would be physically harder to do.

500 cc open 2 stroke motorcycles, I would love to see all the new kids that are the stars of supercross and the outdoor racing series throw a leg over these things and see how well they would do. I'm sure the good guys could ride them well but I bet they would all be complaining by the end of the year.

If the AMA would allow 2 stokes of a decent displacement and get rid of the rule that it had to be in production, you would see alot more people come back to the sport. Not only racers, but fans as well. It would strike up a great debate which leads to controversy and people just love this stuff. It would be an epic David vs. Golith battle of the small guy, (you know privateers would be the only ones on 2 strokes) vs the huge mega japanese backed factory riders. Just let the motors be bumped up to 300 cc's and throw a real rider on one and let the games begin. I would be back as a fan the day they announce it.

Right now it's just plain boring to watch.

Lasher

11-24-2009, 10:35 AM

I love to see the AMA take away the "production only" rule, just to see what the Pros race.

We know that factory backed teams are falling fast, but I wonder if the hybrids would make a come back if the Pros are not getting paid to run a certain chassis.

buford

11-24-2009, 10:59 AM

I don't know the big star's of ATV racing because I think ATV racing is like watching paint dry compared to motorcycles. I do enjoy riding my atv out in the sand dunes but would never watch them in MX.

I will talk MX riding, I don't think Bubba Stewart cares what he rides as long as he is competitive on it and wins races. I see big time MX racing like I see NHRA drag racing, it's all about who the big name driver/rider can attract as a corporate sponser since it takes so much money to pay the rider and race a season to be competitive.

So Doug Gust attacts Catapiller since he owns a construction company to back him for the season and pays him millions, who cares what he races as Suzuki or a Hybrid frame 250r.

I will back him if he want's to run a 250r in a hybrid, if he wins, all the young kids will think he is cool and want one of my 250r hybrids to ride at their track plus a Cat backhoe to make a track in their back yard. This is what the OEM's don't want to see though except for KTM. I really hope KTM keeps pushing the 2 stroke motorcycles with the technology they have with their direct injection 2 strokes.

destey

11-24-2009, 12:05 PM

In the end its all about politics and the law.

world.honda.com / wikipedia

"To achieve the cleaner emissions and higher fuel economy targets it announced for motorcycles in 1999, Honda began as early as 1997 to take measures to discontinue the use of 2-stroke engines by the end of fiscal 2002. These simply structured 2-stroke engines had been adopted mainly in small motorcycles because of their superior output. Our goal was to replace them with more environment-friendly 4-stroke engine technology."

tommygunnz

11-24-2009, 02:58 PM

2 strokes should be allowed in any ATV race the rules suck and should be changed period,if you want to race a 4 stroke you can so is there really a fair reason the 2 strokes arent allowed?

woodsracer144

11-24-2009, 06:21 PM

i dont want to be an *** hole but the next person that brings up emssions im going to b!tch slap the **** out of you!

if honda wanted to they could make a 2 stroke... this is how it would work. you wouldnt run a premix, you would have a "oil pump system" parsay and that oil would lube the crank shaft like it does in a sled, but this one would only lube the crank and the fuel would come in on top the cyl kinda... thik of it as a single cylinder E-tech system from BRP!

if ford dodge or chevy wanted to make a truck that ran off water and went 100 MPG they could do it... the just dont do it becuase the make money with the gas comp. leting us get ****ed paying the price of gas...

John Noftsinger

11-24-2009, 07:15 PM

Then why dont they make a enviro-friendly 2-stroke? Aprilla/Can-am/ATK got 4-stroke vtwins there,s one bike the apilla mx bike that run one already,that are 450cc -550cc that put out 60-70 hp stock ,put that in quad and you would have supreme race quad.Can you imagine lightweight- twin cylinder 4-stroke quad it would be a monster! 2-stroke,s are never coming back for one reason or another we will never know the real reason. but you cant hate on 4-stroke forever they will get alot better.

woodsracer144

11-24-2009, 07:33 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Then why dont they make a enviro-friendly 2-stroke? Aprilla/Can-am/ATK got 4-stroke vtwins there,s one bike the apilla mx bike that run one already,that are 450cc -550cc that put out 60-70 hp stock ,put that in quad and you would have supreme race quad.Can you imagine lightweight- twin cylinder 4-stroke quad it would be a monster! 2-stroke,s are never coming back for one reason or another we will never know the real reason. but you cant hate on 4-stroke forever they will get alot better.

becuase its monkey see monkey do... if you were a top pro racer and honda said hey i'll give you a 300ex fully modded you say what you want dont and i'll give it to you and you race it at every race you can and we'll throw in some nice amount of money in with it would you take that or would you go and work on your quad by your self... even though its a 300ex... i think i would take them up on it... thats all it is...

i bet you if pros started to run a 250r more they would start to drop some ama rules and they might start to work on them... how ever i know a guy that worked at honda and he said hondad wasnt looking at 2 stroke at all how ever out of 12 possable modles only 2 would go on to a proto type and test and then they might get tossed or put in to harder testing...

destey

11-25-2009, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by woodsracer144
i dont want to be an *** hole but the next person that brings up emssions im going to b!tch slap the **** out of you!

if honda wanted to they could make a 2 stroke... this is how it would work. you wouldnt run a premix, you would have a "oil pump system" parsay and that oil would lube the crank shaft like it does in a sled, but this one would only lube the crank and the fuel would come in on top the cyl kinda... thik of it as a single cylinder E-tech system from BRP!

if ford dodge or chevy wanted to make a truck that ran off water and went 100 MPG they could do it... the just dont do it becuase the make money with the gas comp. leting us get ****ed paying the price of gas...

The market (or govt) dictates what products a company will sell. A company isn't a living entity that ponders "hmm should we side with the consumer or Big Oil?" Its all about the bottom line.

hypothetical: Company X starts making 2 stroke atvs, production copy of the 250r brought to today's standards. It flies off the shelf persay and the company makes a healthy profit. Nancy Pelosi puts a bill before congress mandating CARB style emissions on the ATV industry and forever after we're legally binded to run stock carbs and exhaust in our 4strokes.

Don't say it won't happen because I'm an AR-15 enthusiast and I see what govt has done to my hobby. 1994 assault weapons ban nuff said.

woodsracer144

11-25-2009, 05:43 PM

all i'm sayin is they could easily make it work.... the gov can lick my dong

All250R

11-26-2009, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by woodsracer144
i dont want to be an *** hole but the next person that brings up emssions im going to b!tch slap the **** out of you!

if honda wanted to they could make a 2 stroke... this is how it would work. you wouldnt run a premix, you would have a "oil pump system" parsay and that oil would lube the crank shaft like it does in a sled, but this one would only lube the crank and the fuel would come in on top the cyl kinda... thik of it as a single cylinder E-tech system from BRP!

if ford dodge or chevy wanted to make a truck that ran off water and went 100 MPG they could do it... the just dont do it becuase the make money with the gas comp. leting us get ****ed paying the price of gas...

You don't need to bit*h slap anyone. The quote destey made was originally posted on Honda's website. Do a google search for EPA benchmarks for ATV and offroad vehicle emissions. It's not in red letters on a pretty dirtwheels web page; you'll have to weed through some tedious language, but it's not information you can't find. Its' a fact, not an opinion or a speculation dreamt up on a message board forum or three.

What you have to look past in the Honda quote is that they're not making the change for altruistic, see we're an environment friendly company reasons - Bulls*t. Their marketing department is seizing the impending change as a chance to position the image of the company, and sell more upcoming 4stroke products (even frickin weedwhackers guys - not just bikes on the race track). I'm on your side, so no offense.

All250R

11-26-2009, 01:31 AM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Then why dont they make a enviro-friendly 2-stroke? Aprilla/Can-am/ATK got 4-stroke vtwins there,s one bike the apilla mx bike that run one already,that are 450cc -550cc that put out 60-70 hp stock ,put that in quad and you would have supreme race quad.Can you imagine lightweight- twin cylinder 4-stroke quad it would be a monster! 2-stroke,s are never coming back for one reason or another we will never know the real reason. but you cant hate on 4-stroke forever they will get alot better.
How much does a top end for a 4stroke cost? How much does as top end for a 2stroke cost? I assume you're not professionally in sales, marketing or engineering... If you're a company facing MANDATORY for US sales changes to your product lineup, it makes sense to push a product that you A, traditionally have a lot invested in and excel at. B, can make a killing in replacement parts.

Also, and I don't know the deeper details, but a form at least of the DI technology is patent protected by a company called Orbital, I believe form Australia. Someone can correct me, but BRP I believe pays royalties to use the technology. Either way, it's not like it's been around a long time in production format, plus it's not just free to grab off the shelf and watch your bottom end grow. 2-strokes are not natural emissions, noise, and fuel economic choice. That's a 4stroke's job. The 2strokes job that it excels at is raw power. Has anyone (ahem, John) discovered that GP racing 250's make around 100hp? cricket, cricket...

Ok, you guys that don't read past a DW magazine and the Speed channel aren't doing yourselves or the availability of 2 strokes any favors by staying in the dark and speculating.

quad janern

11-26-2009, 04:54 AM

I just wanted to show you this link guys.
Ktm goes for fuel-injection ?
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/02/coming-soon-ktm-fuel-injected-two-stroke/

John Noftsinger

11-26-2009, 09:00 AM

I dont know the price of a top end but i do know on a 2-stroke you,ll be taking apart alot more than a 4-stroke ,the one thing I cant stand about a 2-stroke is the smell ,they stink up the trails bad,Your riding with buddys and you cant breath if your the one stuck behind the 2-stroke in the woods .we took a quadzilla with us one time and the fumes of that quad with race gas made me want to puke! It was wet out and the quadzilla just couldn,t keep up with all us 4-stroke,s the 500r was banging trees and spinning out and getting stuck so much the guy turned around and went home i dont hate 2-stroke,s I use to ride them i just rather have a high performance 4-stroke ,Ive had my Z since 2002 and have never done anything but oil change,clean filter and it runs great cant get away doing that on a 2-stroke with losing lots of power or breaking down,and needing motor work done.

8686

11-26-2009, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I dont know the price of a top end but i do know on a 2-stroke you,ll be taking apart alot more than a 4-stroke ,the one thing I cant stand about a 2-stroke is the smell ,they stink up the trails bad,Your riding with buddys and you cant breath if your the one stuck behind the 2-stroke in the woods .we took a quadzilla with us one time and the fumes of that quad with race gas made me want to puke! It was wet out and the quadzilla just couldn,t keep up with all us 4-stroke,s the 500r was banging trees and spinning out and getting stuck so much the guy turned around and went home i dont hate 2-stroke,s I use to ride them i just rather have a high performance 4-stroke ,Ive had my Z since 2002 and have never done anything but oil change,clean filter and it runs great cant get away doing that on a 2-stroke with losing lots of power or breaking down,and needing motor work done.

Sir, you couldn't be further from the truth. Plain and simple. You shouldn't base your opinions on seeing a Quadzilla run through the woods. It was never really intended to go there. Too big and can't turn. You say you would rather have a "high performance 4-stroke"? You have a Z400? I'm sorry but that is not a high performance 4 stroke. That quad doesn't compare to a 250R in any way, shape, or form. That's the end of that argument.

And also, what is this about a 2 stroke "losing lots of power or breaking down, and needing motor work done"? A 250R in a good state of tune is every bit as reliable as a Z400, and much more fun to ride. And I'm not sure what you mean by "losing lots of power". A 250R will spank a Z400. It doesn't matter if they're both stock or if they're both modified. The 250R wins.

I must say, you've really exposed yourself on this post. No offense.

Oh and I almost forgot! It doesn't get any easier than a top end change on a 250R! Where have you been?

John Noftsinger

11-26-2009, 10:40 AM

then if the 250r was such an advantange in mx why did doug gust stop riding it (250r)and dominated on the z motor in lonestar frame ?(cause it was easier to ride)the z was the first 4-stroke to beat the 250r on the track and won two championships against it till the pro-production rule came in.not hating on the 250r i just think there,s better quads these days the 250r had its reign ,now its the new 450,s time to dominate just fact !the 250r wouldn,t stand a chance on the mx track to a 450 just the facts =less fatique,more traction,more instant torque/hookup =better track quad.I just get tried of 250r owners hating on the new 4-strokes cause they here and never leaving and the 250r will never be back in racing again! sorry that just what it is ,and the Z WAS high performance for its time,it was the first quad with dohc motor for a sportquad and at the time was the best platform to build with.

leager-n-ky

11-26-2009, 10:58 AM

Didnt Shane Hitt, and Tim Farr come back out this past summer and show what the 250r can still do on the track?

skyeryder

11-26-2009, 11:03 AM

This has been a great post, really good comments

BUT if I was getting paid to ride a 4-Stroke(z400 D Gust) I'm gonna tell you that it the best quad ever $$$$ talks.
Just watched Huevos 5 last night was awesome seing the pros on the R again.

John Noftsinger

11-26-2009, 11:04 AM

dont know would have loved to seen that! Some of the pro,s should get together and run the 250r up agains,t the new 450,s would be awesome to see and then get there input on the differences in racing them would be interesting.One of the Mags should do this it would sell many mags thats for sure!

skyeryder

11-26-2009, 11:10 AM

I think you would have to get pro's that are privateers that way they can voice their real opinion

Black Sheep

11-26-2009, 12:32 PM

I must be doing something wrong. :rolleyes: I'm consistently beating 250R's. some of them big bore and pv'd, and 500cc two strokes all with my stock motored 450R :devil:

...and they say I'm on a "cheater bike" :blah:

but, I love our series...we don't have stupid displacement limits, engine configuration classes, age classes, ect.

It's racing at it's purest form...run what you brung :macho

leager-n-ky

11-26-2009, 04:08 PM

I have seen 250x's, 200 blaster's, I have even seen a guy on a beefed up 230 quadsport beat the 250r. I have also seen the 250r beat tha Banshee, and Quadzilla.

If you are beating the 250r on your fourstroke, thats fine you are probably a very good rider, wich motocross i beleive to be atleast 80% rider, if not more.

Fourstroke, Two stroke???? Who cares, go out and enjoy the sport. You guy's are turning this into the difference between dirt bikes, and quads. There are some great four pokes out there, there are some great 250r's, but they are all quads, they are all fun, ride your's, i'll ride mine, and ENJOY IT....

heelclickinonaR

11-26-2009, 06:04 PM

I couldn't agree with you more. Life is too short to squabble over stuff like that. Just go ride. :)

Black Sheep

11-26-2009, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by leager-n-ky

If you are beating the 250r on your fourstroke, thats fine you are probably a very good rider, wich motocross i beleive to be atleast 80% rider, if not more.

Fourstroke, Two stroke???? Who cares, go out and enjoy the sport. You guy's are turning this into the difference between dirt bikes, and quads. There are some great four pokes out there, there are some great 250r's, but they are all quads, they are all fun, ride your's, i'll ride mine, and ENJOY IT....

thats the point i was trying to make ;)

tommygunnz

11-26-2009, 06:43 PM

Two stroke vs four stroke is a great debate and a lot of us enjoy these debates and that 250R must of had huge problems I find it hard to believe it lost to slow bikes like that wouldn't happen on my watch
Originally posted by leager-n-ky
I have seen 250x's, 200 blaster's, I have even seen a guy on a beefed up 230 quadsport beat the 250r. I have also seen the 250r beat tha Banshee, and Quadzilla.

If you are beating the 250r on your fourstroke, thats fine you are probably a very good rider, wich motocross i beleive to be atleast 80% rider, if not more.

Fourstroke, Two stroke???? Who cares, go out and enjoy the sport. You guy's are turning this into the difference between dirt bikes, and quads. There are some great four pokes out there, there are some great 250r's, but they are all quads, they are all fun, ride your's, i'll ride mine, and ENJOY IT....

John Noftsinger

11-26-2009, 07:50 PM

Do you honestly think doug gust got payed alot of money to ride the z ! not until it hit production in 2002 he really get payed anuff to stop working he had constuction co he ran while racing he rode the Z cause he could be as fast in lap 1 as lap 10 less fatique plan and simple,plus having 50+ hps at the time was also an advantange for a 4-stroke at the time,he also was about to retire at the time and was asked to ride it (forgot co. name) the 4-stroke made it so he could continue racing. the motor choice at the time was genuis!you cant argue that the Z didn,t beat the 250r cause it did !and the next thing you,ll say is it was modded well so was the 250r. It the Z WAS the quad that got racing going again (FACT) .and will go down in history for that fact.The 250r will alway be remebered as one of the greats thats for sure ,But its not over for the 4-stroke not by a long shot !your going to see some wild 4-stroke,s after this recestion ends and economy gets back on its feet.By the way i love to debate this issue as you guys can tell!

atv fan 28

11-26-2009, 08:01 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Do you honestly think doug gust got payed alot of money to ride the z ! not until it hit production in 2002 he really get payed anuff to stop working he had constuction co he ran while racing he rode the Z cause he could be as fast in lap 1 as lap 10 less fatique plan and simple,plus having 50+ hps at the time was also an advantange for a 4-stroke at the time,he also was about to retire at the time and was asked to ride it (forgot co. name) the 4-stroke made it so he could continue racing. the motor choice at the time was genuis!you cant argue that the Z didn,t beat the 250r cause it did !and the next thing you,ll say is it was modded well so was the 250r. It the Z WAS the quad that got racing going again (FACT) .and will go down in history for that fact.The 250r will alway be remebered as one of the greats thats for sure ,But its not over for the 4-stroke not by a long shot !your going to see some wild 4-stroke,s after this recestion ends and economy gets back on its feet.By the way i love to debate this issue as you guys can tell! the only reason you keep bringing the Z up is because you own one. everyone thinks what they own is the best. and yes riders get paid to ride certain brands! btw the the 250R will be remembered as the GREATEST! PERIOD!!! and yes i own a 250R, plus i have a 450R as a backup! LOL

deathman53

11-26-2009, 08:19 PM

I agree, its 80% rider. I seen some very good riders(racers) ride stock bikes and beat many people. My friend was neck and neck with John Natalie on my 250r, I couldn't keep up with Natalie even if he rode a stock 300ex. Put almost any of the pro in inferior bikes and they will still smoke 90% of those out there. They moved to the four stroke for money and because its easier to ride faster and longer. Any idiot can ride a 4 stroke somewhat decent, it takes a person who knows how to ride to do a 2 stroke. Speaking of dirbikes, JS probably can still win the 250/450 with the 125 he rode in 05 or 06. This 2 vs 4 stroke is retarded, it all comes down to rider and a different style of riding. The 4 stroke is easier to ride and less tiring, thats the advantage it has, a good rider in top shape can win on a 2 stroke. The 4 stroke is more for the masses and tailored like so, easy to ride, smooth riding.

8686

11-26-2009, 08:23 PM

I like to get a good clean debate going. Doesn't really matter what it's about, either. I don't want to hear any of that "why can't everyone just get along and go riding" crap. Forums are more fun with a few of these heated debates thrown in.

Doug Gust rode for TC Racing when he was on the hybrid.

The 250R is not slower than a new 450. That's been proven. Shane Hitt threw a 250R together literally hours before the tt race and whooped 99% of the 450's on the track. He was running Pro-Am, too. I'm sure he would have ran in the Pro class if he could have.

I race a 250R motocross. It's not a big bore, either. I beat plenty of brand new 450's. If they make so much power they should just blast by me on the long straight-aways, right? They don't.

The 250R is not washed up on the motocross scene. As sad as it is, the pro's get paid to say their quad is the best, no matter if it actually is or not. Example: two years ago Chad Wienen rode for Suzuki. He said his Suzuki was the best quad ever. Last year he rode for Kawasaki. He said his Kawi was the best quad ever. This year he rides for Can Am and guess what, he loves it! Of course he does, he gets a paycheck from Can Am to say that.

And John, what do you mean the Z400 "got racing going again"? It never went anywhere in the first place. It just switched over to the crappy production-oriented racing it is today because the factories got heavily involved. And look what's happening, the big, bad factories are already pulling out again...

factoryX

11-26-2009, 08:51 PM

whoa, this guy(blacksheep) is a 4 stroke rider, and does not ride 2 strokes. I have proof that 2 stroke bikes are faster: http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/11/two-stroke-motocross-com-questions-answered-misconceptions-debunked/

This website says it all, a 150 ktm 2 stroke being faster 250 4 stroke, a cr500af being faster than a crf450r, and the cr 500 still has to much power.. this guy gloats over his tpc450 trike when all it is a trike with modern suspension and a crf450r motor. Why don't you stick a cr500 in your tpc bike and see which one is faster. A 2 cylinder cr500 motor (http://www.trickracing1.com/Twin_CR500.html) has over 210hp! thats more hp than a hayabusa! or gsxr 1400! with only little mods! and if pipe correctly will have all the bottom end you need. is he on the track with pro riders? no.

Black Sheep

11-26-2009, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by factoryX
whoa, this guy(blacksheep) is a 4 stroke rider, and does not ride 2 strokes.

lol...the jokes on you my friend...I owned and rode a 250R since it was brand new for over 20years :D I don't miss it one bit

Originally posted by factoryX
... this guy gloats over his tpc450 trike when all it is a trike with modern suspension and a crf450r motor. Why don't you stick a cr500 in your tpc bike and see which one is faster.

...that consistently beats a CR 500 powered trike with modern suspension :blah:

I think your taking this subject and my post a little too seriously.

personally i think this debate is quite humorous...almost as funny as the two stroke guys who call my trike a "cheater' trike. :huh

All250R

11-26-2009, 10:57 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
then if the 250r was such an advantange in mx why did doug gust stop riding it (250r)and dominated on the z motor in lonestar frame ?(cause it was easier to ride)the z was the first 4-stroke to beat the 250r on the track and won two championships against it till the pro-production rule came in.not hating on the 250r i just think there,s better quads these days the 250r had its reign ,now its the new 450,s time to dominate just fact !the 250r wouldn,t stand a chance on the mx track to a 450 just the facts =less fatique,more traction,more instant torque/hookup =better track quad.I just get tried of 250r owners hating on the new 4-strokes cause they here and never leaving and the 250r will never be back in racing again! sorry that just what it is ,and the Z WAS high performance for its time,it was the first quad with dohc motor for a sportquad and at the time was the best platform to build with.

I can totally respect that people like the 450 (or a 400, or a 300 for that matter). I don't mind riding wiht my buddies or dis them because they ride a 4stroke. its' cool to hear how much fun they have on it. I like riding and they do too.

I also respect that some will be faster on a 450 in MX which is what this thread is about. the 450's were built with hindsight being 20/20 right? You know what the product you have to create to get people to get down to the showroom because after this many years of domination of 2strokes, it's not hard to engineer something faster. Cool! It's faster (sort of), and people switched in the MX scene (for various reasons not all of which are by personal choice).

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
Do you honestly think doug gust got payed alot of money to ride the z ! not until it hit production in 2002 he really get payed anuff to stop working he had constuction co he ran while racing he rode the Z cause he could be as fast in lap 1 as lap 10 less fatique plan and simple,plus having 50+ hps at the time was also an advantange for a 4-stroke at the time,he also was about to retire at the time and was asked to ride it (forgot co. name) the 4-stroke made it so he could continue racing. the motor choice at the time was genuis!you cant argue that the Z didn,t beat the 250r cause it did !and the next thing you,ll say is it was modded well so was the 250r. It the Z WAS the quad that got racing going again (FACT) .and will go down in history for that fact.The 250r will alway be remebered as one of the greats thats for sure ,But its not over for the 4-stroke not by a long shot !your going to see some wild 4-stroke,s after this recestion ends and economy gets back on its feet.By the way i love to debate this issue as you guys can tell!

This is the comment that makes me want to call you out though. Why is it that your brain can't originate the idea that someone can make a bigger engine faster if you make it bigger, and bigger and bigger? Does that make it better?? Look, it's BARELY faster! Hello??? It's NO feat for a bigger, engine to edge out a smaller one, and it's plain denial to think otherwise.

Think of it this way homie. Instead of asking if a pumped up Honda civic is faster or better than pumped up other 4 cylinder car, you're seeing the factories bending the displacement rules putting Mustangs on the track with civic and trying to say the civic is somehow inferior because it's harder to win on. Well duh!

The point is compare apples to apples i.e. cc to cc. Put that Z400 down to a Z250 and what do you think will happen John? You better get some pretty talented sh*t on that seat, because if you're a sponsor, you're about to look like a dumass. What now? Z250 against a 250R, what do you think? Wanna dyno for pinks?

Derrick Adams

11-27-2009, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
I must be doing something wrong. :rolleyes: I'm consistently beating 250R's. some of them big bore and pv'd, and 500cc two strokes all with my stock motored 450R :devil:

...and they say I'm on a "cheater bike" :blah:

but, I love our series...we don't have stupid displacement limits, engine configuration classes, age classes, ect.

It's racing at it's purest form...run what you brung :macho

Now Bill, I know how you love to stir the pot, but I think you may have stretched the truth a little on this statement. I doubt anyone would consider 1 overall win out of 7 or 8 races consistantly beating 250R's. I'll leave it at that.

Back to the topic. Can 250R's compete in todays MX?

Back when 250R's were raced in MX and the 4 strokes came out, things were alot different. The 250R was shackled with a 265cc rule that really limited how the engine could be built to make the most power. Most of the time I would say it didnt favor itself to smooth, usable power that wouldn't wear you out.

Nowadays the 450 national bikes are making 60hp or so. I think a national 265 motor made somewhere around 45hp (with a very tight power band). If you built a 250R engine with the same 60hp would it be possible to build it so that it provided a nice smooth power delivery to not wear out the rider? I think it could be done.

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
Now Bill, I know how you love to stir the pot, but I think you may have stretched the truth a little on this statement. I doubt anyone would consider 1 overall win out of 7 or 8 races consistantly beating 250R's. I'll leave it at that.

Well Derrick, I only rode 6 races, won 2 overalls, 4 motos, and pulled 6 holeshots. But i'll admit hardly anyone showed up for sunset so you can remove one overall but then it's down to 5 races ( not 8 ). Then there are the two 2nd overalls. And the fact that I was only 1 of 2 450's competing against a field of two strokes including the 500. So i think i consistantly beat two strokes when you consider the numbers i faced and the results...afterall even when i finished 2nd there were more 250 and larger two strokes behind me then in front. :blah:

now get off the golf cart and get out there ;) i'll be off most of the year recovering from surgery so you got plenty of time to practice up.

Derrick Adams

11-27-2009, 07:42 AM

I just think your putting it out like your TPC450 is hands down better than a 250R, when everybody knows its like comparing apples to oranges. I can name lots of times your bike was holeshoted and beat by 2 strokes just as easily as you can say you won.

Truth is, you and I both know it doesn't matter what bike a person is on. 90% of MX is the rider. Case in point, the stock 85 Tecate that won the last race you ran.

One thing everyone agrees on. 4 strokes make anyone faster. I don't exclude myself from that. My 4 stroke trike made me easily dominate. Hence the reason i'm now going back to a 2 stroke.

Now on the other hand, i'm considerably faster on my 250R quad than I was my 450R. That's the reason i'm even participating in this conversation. Because I KNOW that you can still run a 250R in modern MX. I've had alot of success with my 250R and I have alot of 1st place trophys to show for it. I've been beaten alot too, so I say it's a pretty fair comparison.

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 08:18 AM

Well Derrick I think your reading way too much into this. I also think your distorting or at least misleading the truth.

For one your using results against me but your leaving out I am 41 racing a bunch of 20 year olds, I was also riding injured and on tracks i had never seen before. Also lets not forget this was my first year racing a 450R

But thats not the subject. The subject is 450R's against 250R's.

when I win on a 450R it's called a cheater trike. when a 250R wins it's called superior.

But what you fail to remember/relize is I probably have more years on a 250R then most of you. I had a choice between keeping my 250R for another 20 years or ride something newer. I'll take my 450R anyday over a ATC 250R...and untill you ride it you have no basis for a debate

also consider this...if set up right a ATC 250R can weigh as little as 250lbs and at best a 450R trike can be around 300lb.

this whole thing about 4 strokes making someone faster is a laugh just like this entire argument. It;s not about the bike/trike/quad...it's about the rider...your only as fast as your right hand...2 or 4 stroke

I raced 125 two strokes for 10 years as well as 250's and 500's on occasion so i think i have some room to talk.

back to one of my earlier post...run what you brung and quit crying about what the other guy is on. If you think a 250R is faster...bring it.

and since you want to call me out on race results...

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
... I've had alot of success with my 250R and I have alot of 1st place trophys to show for it...

i remember a few of those races and you were racing against blaster's and 400ex's. not one other 250R or 450r was in the field.

p.s. that Tecate was not stock when it beat me...but it was bone stock when it beat your boy Jason...lol...jk...and Malvern is Carls hometrack;)

3leggeddog

11-27-2009, 10:15 AM

i remember a few of those races and you were racing against blaster's and 400ex's. not one other 250R or 450r was in the field-quote blacksheep-

well for you to show up to a few smith road races,and one sunset race and base judgement on his comptition is crazy.i have watched him spank 450's all year at gailon,amherst,and fair races.only the occaisonal blaster and 400ex fell victim.

I myself put that "old 250r" out in front of a full field of 450's in open quad at Gailon.checked out 20 bike length's,till the girl seized up after we put 9 moto's on her that day.so is it possible for a 250r to compete,yes it is.but it's not the easiest to ride,and demands alot more rider input and conditioning.

tommygunnz

11-27-2009, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Well Derrick I think your reading way too much into this. I also think your distorting or at least misleading the truth.

For one your using results against me but your leaving out I am 41 racing a bunch of 20 year olds, I was also riding injured and on tracks i had never seen before. Also lets not forget this was my first year racing a 450R

But thats not the subject. The subject is 450R's against 250R's.

when I win on a 450R it's called a cheater trike. when a 250R wins it's called superior.

But what you fail to remember/relize is I probably have more years on a 250R then most of you. I had a choice between keeping my 250R for another 20 years or ride something newer. I'll take my 450R anyday over a ATC 250R...and untill you ride it you have no basis for a debate

also consider this...if set up right a ATC 250R can weigh as little as 250lbs and at best a 450R trike can be around 300lb.

this whole thing about 4 strokes making someone faster is a laugh just like this entire argument. It;s not about the bike/trike/quad...it's about the rider...your only as fast as your right hand...2 or 4 stroke

I raced 125 two strokes for 10 years as well as 250's and 500's on occasion so i think i have some room to talk.

back to one of my earlier post...run what you brung and quit crying about what the other guy is on. If you think a 250R is faster...bring it.

and since you want to call me out on race results...

i remember a few of those races and you were racing against blaster's and 400ex's. not one other 250R or 450r was in the field.

p.s. that Tecate was not stock when it beat me...but it was bone stock when it beat your boy Jason...lol...jk...and Malvern is Carls hometrack;) the main points are,1 the 4stroke has a easier powerband to be fast with and a lesser rider can be good on it even though that doesnt make it faster than a 2 stroke and 2,the 4 stroke needs more cc's to be considered even when its actually not considering its such a larger displacement.what if a big company was to make a large cc 2stroke that was up to the new 450s specs and was developed with 2010 R&D,seems like the 450 is the only bike thats being bettered yet 2 strokes can still hang I dont even wanna get in to what my friends Banshee sitting behind my house next to my heavily modded 87 LT250R does to all the bikes around when he gets them to agree to race,they all claim their 450s arent running right when the Banshee is out:devil:

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by 3leggeddog
...well for you to show up to a few smith road races,and one sunset race and base judgement on his comptition is crazy.

sorta like you judging me off of one race and making false assumptions like this...

Originally posted by 3leggeddog

Bill,you have no idea.U can't even catch derrick,let alone me.

for the record i was not passing judgement on Derrick, i was busting his balls.

And just to set the record straight since you were not there...Derrick and i only raced together ONCE...Smith rd. labor day 08...I beat him BOTH moto's

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by tommygunnz
the main points are,...

The powerband may be easier...and I personally don't agree with that I think two strokes can be easy if ridden right...but four strokes are carrying more weight. as far as displacement advantages...remember a two stroke fires twice as often so it takes the four stroke longer to produce it's power.

that's probably why for the longest time the AMA allowed 4 strokes to have twice the displacement. They made there decision based on HP produced not cc. only after 4 strokes became more advanced did they drop it...and consider dropping it again.

I think it's funny to hear and read how the 250R's are so much better but when they get beat by a 450 four stroke the 450 is called a cheater bike.

I also love how this displacement advantage is used when, I'll say it again, I have no problem racing a two stroke 500 with a stock 450 four stroke. This is MX we are talking about. Very few are actually using there motors to there full potential anyway.

Don't get me wrong...I love both two strokes and four strokes. I don't hold either one above the other. But I'd much rather ride/race a new four stroke I built myself then a 20 year old 250R I've ridden to death.

tommygunnz

11-27-2009, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
The powerband may be easier...and I personally don't agree with that I think two strokes can be easy if ridden right...but four strokes are carrying more weight. as far as displacement advantages...remember a two stroke fires twice as often so it takes the four stroke longer to produce it's power.

that's probably why for the longest time the AMA allowed 4 strokes to have twice the displacement. They made there decision based on HP produced not cc. only after 4 strokes became more advanced did they drop it...and consider dropping it again.

I think it's funny to hear and read how the 250R's are so much better but when they get beat by a 450 four stroke the 450 is called a cheater bike.

I also love how this displacement advantage is used when, I'll say it again, I have no problem racing a two stroke 500 with a stock 450 four stroke. This is MX we are talking about. Very few are actually using there motors to there full potential anyway.

Don't get me wrong...I love both two strokes and four strokes. I don't hold either one above the other. But I'd much rather ride/race a new four stroke I built myself then a 20 year old 250R I've ridden to death. I think in MX the 450 has a advantage because the way the power hooks up not to say a 2 stroke cant win though.I forget this is a MX debate mainly and compare what bikes faster the way we do it here which is line em up and drag either street or dirt which I think Banshee is king of all

All250R

11-27-2009, 02:43 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
as far as displacement advantages...remember a two stroke fires twice as often so it takes the four stroke longer to produce it's power.

that's probably why for the longest time the AMA allowed 4 strokes to have twice the displacement. They made there decision based on HP produced not cc. only after 4 strokes became more advanced did they drop it...and consider dropping it again.

I think it's funny to hear and read how the 250R's are so much better but when they get beat by a 450 four stroke the 450 is called a cheater bike.

I also love how this displacement advantage is used when, I'll say it again, I have no problem racing a two stroke 500 with a stock 450 four stroke. This is MX we are talking about. Very few are actually using there motors to there full potential anyway.

I don't know where your head is at exactly in this debate, but it's far more common these days to see people spout their mouths about how 2strokes as a platform are outdated and 4strokes are new tech, and the replacement of the 2strokes are an evolution of technology. That's the mainstream thinking more than the other way around. It seems in my estimation you're one of the fewer people worrying about your 450 staying in front of 2strokes. Everyone else thinks that's how it's supposed to be because two strokes are "outdated". That's the premise of my post here and my position about the displacement advantage you have to give a 4stroke to be competitive.

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by All250R
I don't know where your head is at exactly in this debate,...

Here is my position...yes the current crop of two strokes are outdated and it has nothing to do with the current four strokes out now. It has to do with the fact nothing has been improved on them since 1986. I don't think the current four strokes are a big deal either. the technology was always (in the 80's/90's) there to build them they way they are now but they didn't. They left the four strokes to the trail rider.

As far as me worrying about staying in front of two strokes...lol...i don't know were you got that from but, that is not a issue. My issue is this...everyone claimes the 250R is this almighty "god" of a motor but, when i beat it on my 450 they call my 450 a cheater bike.

personally i don't care what i'm on i'll race either 2 stroke or 4 stroke and be happy with it. I choose to race a 4 stroke because i'm burnt out on the same old same old 250R and getting parts for a 23 year old bike was getting old and a pain in the arse.

i'll repeat what i've already said in this thread several times before. I hate displacement limits, age classes, 2 stroke, 4 stroke classes, ect. I love our series because you can see 200-600cc four strokes racing against 175-500 two strokes, guys as young as 16 racing against 45 yr olds. you watch the quad/bike classes and you have 15 differant classes and you look on the line and there is three maybe four riders per class with most of them. run what you brung...if your not fast enough either you need to get out and practice or...buy another bike.

The funny thing is if most people concentrated on there suspension as much as they do there motor then they might be a lot faster. MX is about suspension...not motor

Derrick Adams

11-27-2009, 05:03 PM

"The funny thing is if most people concentrated on there suspension as much as they do there motor then they might be a lot faster. MX is about suspension...not motor"

Totally agree with this statement. This whole thread has been about whether a 250R could be competitive in modern MX. I BlackSheeps last statement sums it up.

tommygunnz

11-27-2009, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Here is my position...yes the current crop of two strokes are outdated and it has nothing to do with the current four strokes out now. It has to do with the fact nothing has been improved on them since 1986. I don't think the current four strokes are a big deal either. the technology was always (in the 80's/90's) there to build them they way they are now but they didn't. They left the four strokes to the trail rider.

As far as me worrying about staying in front of two strokes...lol...i don't know were you got that from but, that is not a issue. My issue is this...everyone claimes the 250R is this almighty "god" of a motor but, when i beat it on my 450 they call my 450 a cheater bike.

personally i don't care what i'm on i'll race either 2 stroke or 4 stroke and be happy with it. I choose to race a 4 stroke because i'm burnt out on the same old same old 250R and getting parts for a 23 year old bike was getting old and a pain in the arse.

i'll repeat what i've already said in this thread several times before. I hate displacement limits, age classes, 2 stroke, 4 stroke classes, ect. I love our series because you can see 200-600cc four strokes racing against 175-500 two strokes, guys as young as 16 racing against 45 yr olds. you watch the quad/bike classes and you have 15 differant classes and you look on the line and there is three maybe four riders per class with most of them. run what you brung...if your not fast enough either you need to get out and practice or...buy another bike.

The funny thing is if most people concentrated on there suspension as much as they do there motor then they might be a lot faster. MX is about suspension...not motor lets see,the 4 stroke is heavier,twice the ccs yet still makes roughly the same hp,doesnt really have better handling then the 250R based quads but is all over MX racing? only 2 reasons,1 the big companys pushing their product and paying,2 the power band hooks up better which I think isnt reason enough

bjjmoore

11-27-2009, 05:30 PM

I really dont understand alot of these arguments here. you guys are camparing a two stroke 250 to a four stroke 450. these are two absolutly different machines. why compare cc's when you should be comparing hp. who cares if its a 125cc 2stroke vs. a 660cc 4stroke. If they both have the same horses, then you have a better argument. of corse a 4stroke is gonna have a bigger displacement in ratio to hp. Its a different type of engine.

this thread started as a is 250r competitive in mx thread.
in a word: sure
no less than any other bike. if all the stars are aligned any bike could be competitive. there are too many variables. If you ask the same question with two stock bikes and the same rider on the same track on the same day, would the answer still be the same? I personally have no idea and its prob imossible to say.

I just have to say that there is a reason that there are not many 2 stroke bikes in production. its not because the manufactures want to make money. they run on supply and demand. we the consumer demand and they the manufacturer supply. in that order. they dont tell us what to buy, we tell them what to sell. that is a fact.

and those are just my opinions(except for supply and demand) thats fact.

John Noftsinger

11-27-2009, 05:45 PM

All250r now do you understand that cc,size between the two dont mean #### .It was the hps they were going by Im sure you read blacksheep,s post now you can see whats the real deal fool, you cant compare cc,s on the two thats retarded one fires two times the other four.if cc,s were such an advantange the Raptor would be the fastest quad ever ! Ive beat and have been beat by them ,but Im giving them a 268cc,s advantange in a drag so if cc,s meant anything he would have killed me, pulled away like he had a rocket engine on it ! ha ha. i love how some people say 4-stroke easier thats why they win thats a joke ! you have a 250r that weigh,s 300pds or less to a 450 that weight 350pds or more its not easier its less fatigue from vibration after 20 lps thats the advantage back in the 2000to 2003 there was a small hp advantange (if any)on the Z compared to the 250r at the time but its was only a few hps.Doug Gust Z was 52hps at the time he rode agains,t the 250r,s.If thats an advantange oh well ! glad to see the mighty 250r get it but handed to it by the Z .

All250R

11-27-2009, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
All250r now do you understand that cc,size between the two dont mean #### .It was the hps they were going by Im sure you read blacksheep,s post now you can see whats the real deal fool, you cant compare cc,s on the two thats retarded one fires two times the other four.if cc,s were such an advantange the Raptor would be the fastest quad ever ! Ive beat and have been beat by them ,but Im giving them a 268cc,s advantange in a drag so if cc,s meant anything he would have killed me, pulled away like he had a rocket engine on it ! ha ha. i love how some people say 4-stroke easier thats why they win thats a joke ! you have a 250r that weigh,s 300pds or less to a 450 that weight 350pds or more its not easier its less fatigue from vibration after 20 lps thats the advantage back in the 2000to 2003 there was a small hp advantange (if any)on the Z compared to the 250r at the time but its was only a few hps.Doug Gust Z was 52hps at the time he rode agains,t the 250r,s.If thats an advantange oh well ! glad to see the mighty 250r get it but handed to it by the Z .
The reason why peak hp isn't sufficient to gauge a racing bracket by and CC's in normally aspirated engines is traditionally used is because nobody runs an engine for a race at one/peak rpm. Convenient idea, but not sufficient, not even for drag racing.

History is the "real deal". Not BlackSheep's sole race results (though props to the guy!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Prix_motorcycle_racing

"In the 1960s, two-stroke engines began to take root in the smaller classes. By the 1970s, two-strokes completely eclipsed the four-strokes in all classes. In 1979, Honda made an attempt to return the four-stroke to the top class with the NR500, but this project failed, and in 1983, even Honda was winning with a two-stroke 500."

John Noftsinger

11-27-2009, 06:10 PM

I think its peak hp rating ?dont really know maybe someone can inlighten us.but do you see what im talking about when you compare cc,s like a raptor and a Z (example)that cc,s dont matter its the hp output that matter,s. sorry about the fool thing was playing around !

8686

11-27-2009, 06:14 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
All250r now do you understand that cc,size between the two dont mean #### .It was the hps they were going by Im sure you read blacksheep,s post now you can see whats the real deal fool, you cant compare cc,s on the two thats retarded one fires two times the other four.if cc,s were such an advantange the Raptor would be the fastest quad ever ! Ive beat and have been beat by them ,but Im giving them a 268cc,s advantange in a drag so if cc,s meant anything he would have killed me, pulled away like he had a rocket engine on it ! ha ha. i love how some people say 4-stroke easier thats why they win thats a joke ! you have a 250r that weigh,s 300pds or less to a 450 that weight 350pds or more its not easier its less fatigue from vibration after 20 lps thats the advantage back in the 2000to 2003 there was a small hp advantange (if any)on the Z compared to the 250r at the time but its was only a few hps.Doug Gust Z was 52hps at the time he rode agains,t the 250r,s.If thats an advantange oh well ! glad to see the mighty 250r get it but handed to it by the Z .

If all the 4 strokes were better than a 250R, then why did a 250R win the nationals pro class in the last year it was allowed to compete?

And a mx-prepped TRX250R does not weight less than 300lb. I don't know where you came up with that number.

And stop with the "4 strokes only fire every other stroke" stuff. That sounds like whining.

Doug Gust didn't hand every 250R their butts, either. I'm sure it was some very competitive racing.

I love this thread!

John Noftsinger

11-27-2009, 06:29 PM

i remeber the 4-stroke,s from the 70s, 80,s 90,s were junk ! #1 piece of #### was the xr100,those xr,s were so slow and had junk motors/frame,s . I had 1976 xr75 bored to 100cc,s and it would eat the flywheel keys .and the frames just fell apart. that why most people hate 4-strokes is cause of the early days of the 4-stroke, the one,s now are night and day different! thats why honda got its repretation for being so reliable ,But they were so slow and made just for trail riding and not track riding.when in fact NOW they aren,t no better in reliablity than the other manufactors!

All250R

11-27-2009, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I think its peak hp rating ?dont really know maybe someone can inlighten us.but do you see what im talking about when you compare cc,s like a raptor and a Z (example)that cc,s dont matter its the hp output that matter,s. sorry about the fool thing was playing around !

Well, you can't really use peak hp as a bracketing guideline. It's just too narrow for how the engine is actually used. CC's is the traditional way. Among other things, it allows one team to dominate another based on the ability to make the engine put out the power spread that is best for a particular rider as opposed to every rider having the exact same machine or output type.

The bikes we buy off the showroom floor are designed for certain customer types, not racing brackets. A Raptor needs to have a lot of displacement for it to put out decent power and not be as high of a maintenance item as a 450. The Z400 pumped to 50+ hp is not going to be a bike a traditional Z400 customer is going to want. If however you put a cap on the displacement an engine makes it forces a confine for teams to operate under and do the very best they can within.

The writing has been on the wall in the US for a move for vehicles to move toward cleaner output since the 70's or so. It's not something unique to offroad vehicles obviously. It's just hit us last is all. I personally didn't think it would happen. I thought we would have been left alone as long as we weren't on the street, but that wasn't the case unfortunately for many of us who prefer a design that isn't inherently made to address that problem... GP suffered the same switch and displacement handicap for 4strokes because people are more likely to attend a race when the bikes are similar to ones they're allowed to buy (2stroke street bikes haven't been able to meet emissions requirements since the early 80's).

All250R

11-27-2009, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by All250R
GP suffered the same switch and displacement handicap for 4strokes because people are more likely to attend a race when the bikes are similar to ones they're allowed to buy (2stroke street bikes haven't been able to meet emissions requirements since the early 80's).
Which brings me to another point, demand does not always dictate supply. The US doesn't support that free of a market unfortunately. The mandated 3wheeler moratorium is a good example.

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 06:57 PM

Originally posted by All250R
The mandated 3wheeler moratorium is a good example.

you might want to rethink that statement...3 wheelers were never banned until 2009.

the consent decree act of 1988 was a voluntary agreement made by the manufactures recommendation.

it expired in 1998 at which time all but a Honda entered into the ATV safety act that continued the consent decree act.

they were officially banned at the manufactures request because a small Chinese company introduced a kid sized 3wheeler. and it was hidden in pages and pages of the Bill that concerned lead paint

and the ban is only temporary until industry standards can be set...another words the manufactures decide when and what they will sell

All250R

11-27-2009, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
you might want to rethink that statement...3 wheelers were never banned until 2009.

the consent decree act of 1988 was a voluntary agreement made by the manufactures recommendation.

it expired in 1998 at which time all but a Honda entered into the ATV safety act that continued the consent decree act.

they were officially banned at the manufactures request because a small Chinese company introduced a kid sized 3wheeler. and it was hidden in pages and pages of the Bill that concerned lead paint

and the ban is only temporary until industry standards can be set...another words the manufactures decide when and what they will sell

After months of negotiations, the Department of Justice and the major ATV manufactures agreed at the same time the complaint was filed to a preliminary consent agreement that contained, in part the following provisions:

Send notices to all known past ATV purchasers informing them of the risk of severe injuries and death associated with ATV’s.

Immediately halt sale of all three-wheeled ATV’s, otherwise known as ATCs.

Affix extensive warning labels to all ATV’s and mail a safety alert to all prior purchasers detailing deaths and injuries associated with ATV use.

Provide free “hands-on” training to all future purchasers and all past purchasers within the last 12 months.

Agree to establish advertising guidelines.

Agree not to oppose state legislation for licensing and certification of ATV operators.

Undertake a public awareness campaign including print, radio, and television commercials describing the potential hazards and risks associated with ATV’s and minimum age guidelines for various models.

A final decree was signed and approved on April 27, 1988. Any remaining inventory of ATCs were dismantled for parts or crushed.

The terms and requirements of the ATV Consent Decree expired on April 27, 1998.
http://www.cyclepedia.com/atv-consent-decree/

All250R

11-27-2009, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
...another words the manufactures decide when and what they will sell
Are you saying the US government has no control over the products manufacturer's sell?

John Noftsinger

11-27-2009, 07:09 PM

I dont think all 4-stroke,s are better than the 250r just the Z-and 450,s for mx IMO.whinning im not but you need to realize your comparing two competly different kind of motor,s cc,s cant be equal or come into play ! i know it was the only e-start 4-stroke to win the national in 2000 and second every yr till 2003 won championship ,and in 2004 agains,t yfz450 in pro-production .that was one Z agains,t afield of 250rs,yfz450,s so thats saying something for the 4-stroke development from past 4-stroke,s.

atv fan 28

11-27-2009, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
I dont think all 4-stroke,s are better than the 250r just the Z-and 450,s for mx IMO.whinning im not but you need to realize your comparing two competly different kind of motor,s cc,s cant be equal or come into play ! i know it was the only e-start 4-stroke to win the national in 2000 and second every yr till 2003 won championship ,and in 2004 agains,t yfz450 in pro-production .that was one Z agains,t afield of 250rs,yfz450,s so thats saying something for the 4-stroke development from past 4-stroke,s. a Z is better than a 250R!! are you serious?? LOL

All250R

11-27-2009, 07:18 PM

Black Sheep

11-27-2009, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by All250R
After months of negotiations, the Department of Justice and the major ATV manufactures agreed at the same time the complaint was filed to a preliminary consent agreement that contained, in part the following provisions:

Send notices to all known past ATV purchasers informing them of the risk of severe injuries and death associated with ATV’s.

Immediately halt sale of all three-wheeled ATV’s, otherwise known as ATCs.

Affix extensive warning labels to all ATV’s and mail a safety alert to all prior purchasers detailing deaths and injuries associated with ATV use.

Provide free “hands-on” training to all future purchasers and all past purchasers within the last 12 months.

Agree to establish advertising guidelines.

Agree not to oppose state legislation for licensing and certification of ATV operators.

Undertake a public awareness campaign including print, radio, and television commercials describing the potential hazards and risks associated with ATV’s and minimum age guidelines for various models.

A final decree was signed and approved on April 27, 1988. Any remaining inventory of ATCs were dismantled for parts or crushed.

The terms and requirements of the ATV Consent Decree expired on April 27, 1998.
http://www.cyclepedia.com/atv-consent-decree/

I don't see anywhere in that statement thats says three wheelers were banned.

It was an AGREEMENT...read farther and you'll find the C.P.S.C. found NO INHERANT DESIGN FLAW in three wheelers.

Look your barking up the wrong tree with this one buddy. I spent years looking into this. I spent thousands with my lawyers to double check my research

And that is why in 2009 I can sell new three wheelers...www.tpctrikes.com

as for your other post...i'm not even gonna dignify that with an answer since your obviously twisting my words around.

tommygunnz

11-27-2009, 07:18 PM

after the LT250 was discontinued in 92 the banshee was the only worthy 2 stroke left and it wasnt for all riders,there was mainly 4 strokes but nothing that could compare to the legendary 250R(ATV actions quad of the century),then eventually the big names start to get involved again and hop up the ccs on the 4strokes and give them state of the art chassis(probably similar to a R's),and of course its a flashy new high tech spectacle and the pros start to race them for factories and boom you have regular joes who like quads but arent real enthusiasts running to buy them.I know if honda was campaigning the R jerimiah jones would pull MX titles if he was racing still and bill ballence would yank more GNCC titles,jerimiah said going from a R to a built 400 was like going from a bull to a cadillac its in one of my mags from like 02 he said he favored his R

8686

11-27-2009, 09:35 PM

All250R

11-27-2009, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
I don't see anywhere in that statement thats says three wheelers were banned.

It was an AGREEMENT...read farther and you'll find the C.P.S.C. found NO INHERANT DESIGN FLAW in three wheelers.

Look your barking up the wrong tree with this one buddy. I spent years looking into this. I spent thousands with my lawyers to double check my research

And that is why in 2009 I can sell new three wheelers...www.tpctrikes.com

as for your other post...i'm not even gonna dignify that with an answer since your obviously twisting my words around.
I'm getting to the point where I'm not able to reply to you. You're trying to lead people to think that since you feel the manufacturers aren't obligated to not make 3 wheelers that my point that the government DOES have the ability to mandate manufacturer's to not sell certain product designs isn't true. The original point was about supply and demand and consumer choice remember? I'm not trying to twist your words, you're just not following along with the point of the conversation very well it appears. You're saying I twisted this part right here to mean something else?:

...another words the manufactures decide when and what they will sell

As far as a ban being on 3wheelers, there was obviously a strong reason to take the loss on the manufacture of the 86 and 87 high performance Honda models and not sell anymore. What the details of the consent are basically equals a ban whether consumers demand was there or not - which is a perfect example of government influencing products in the market. Remember?

As far as your knowledge on the legitimate sale of 3wheelers, I won't question it further except to say that a single search on the CPSC's website revealed a "ban" instated in 06 on the sale of 3wheelers in the US due to like you mentioned, other manufacturer's recently trying to sell them. Prior to this recent activity the CPSC hasn't had to fiddle with it apparently. So if you want one here, tough. It's been banned. Don't take it up with me. Take it up with your lawyer.

Page 17, middle column beginning with the words "Ban on the sale of new 3-wheel ATV's":
http://search.cpsc.gov/cs.html?url=http%3A//www.cpsc.gov/BUSINFO/frnotices/fr06/066703.pdf&charset=iso-8859-1&qt=three+wheelers&col=pubweb&n=6&la=en

wikipedia has similar language:
Recently the CPSC has succeeded in finally banning three wheeled ATV's with attachments to bill HR4040. Many believe this is in response to Chinese manufacturers trying to import three wheeled ATV's. The Japanese manufacturers were also behind this legislation as they have been held responsible for years to provide ATV Safety training and to apply special labels and safety equipment to their ATVs while Chinese manufacturers did not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-terrain_vehicle

It sure seems to me that the government actually has a very strong influence on product availability. Personally, I think the bn of three wheelers is annoying and pisses me off, the same as it is for the manufacturer's decision to move to more "environment friendly 4strokes" (world.honda.com).

All250R

11-27-2009, 10:57 PM

This I feel like is the best quote in the whole thread here though concerning competitiveness of a 250R in MX. :D

"In the 1960s, two-stroke engines began to take root in the smaller classes. By the 1970s, two-strokes completely eclipsed the four-strokes in all classes. In 1979, Honda made an attempt to return the four-stroke to the top class with the NR500, but this project failed, and in 1983, even Honda was winning with a two-stroke 500."

Viva la two stroke!

K-Dub

11-27-2009, 11:46 PM

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
Nowadays the 450 national bikes are making 60hp or so. I think a national 265 motor made somewhere around 45hp (with a very tight power band). If you built a 250R engine with the same 60hp would it be possible to build it so that it provided a nice smooth power delivery to not wear out the rider? I think it could be done.

I have the 88 250R pamphlet from Honda, and its stated the 88 250R put out 36hp (I have the pamphlet but no scanner) from the factory. And according to DRI's website with their national kit you get a 50 to 60% power gain. 250R national kit (http://www.duncanracing.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=DRI&Product_Code=EK-10EL&Category_Code=15)
Does not specify what displacement the engine will be, I know its 265cc or smaller. So by my figures 36hp stock and 50% gain by DRI that puts a stock cylinder (not a PC2000 power valve cylinder) R engine at 54hp peak. 60% gain is 57.6 hp peak with 80% reliable as stock. So if the R only put out 45hp (I know you said think), who's wrong? The Honda pamphlet for the wrong base hp number, or DRI on their hp gain claims? Do we think a 60hp+ 450 4 stroke engine is 80% reliable as stock, I dont think so myself. Also Ill take a machine thats makes 54 hp and weighs 50 pounds less atleast and handles better.

To the guy that keeps saying the Z400 beat the 250R, get your facts straight. Gust won the Pro production class in 2003 not the PRO class.. So there for Gust didnt beat the 250Rs on the Z400. Gust raced against other production quads. JJ won the pro class on a 250R based machine. 04 to present there has only been the pro production class. Gust finished 4th in the PRO class in 03,dont know what he rode in the pro class but did win one race.

2003 ATVA Pro class results. (http://www.atvaonline.com/race/results/atvanarres.asp?s=9&cls=501&year=2003)

2003 ATVA Pro production class (http://www.atvaonline.com/race/results/atvanarres.asp?s=9&cls=502&year=2003)

Here are the champions of the Pro/Pro production class from the beginning 1986 to 2007.

1986 to 2007 ATVA GNC champions. (http://www.atvmotocross.com/pages/series-info/atva-series-profile)

Lets see the championship was combined of both MX and TT till 2002, then they split the class. Starting in 2004 the Pro class was done away with for the Pro production class. Here are the Pro class champs for this decade

2000 GNC champ Travis Spader- 250R

2001 GNC champ JJ- 250R

2002 MX Tim Farr- 250R

2003 MX JJ- 250R

No where do I see that Gust and the Z400 beat the 250R for a championship. Not bashing just setting the record straight, with the facts.

Black Sheep

11-28-2009, 03:28 AM

Originally posted by All250R
I'm getting to the point where I'm not able to reply to you. You're trying to lead people to think...

Lets take this from the beginning with your own post...

Originally posted by All250R
Which brings me to another point, demand does not always dictate supply. The US doesn't support that free of a market unfortunately. The mandated 3wheeler moratorium is a good example.

Your implying the government forced a ban on 3wheelers.

The truth is the government was looking to ban ALL ATV's the manufactures sacrificed the three wheelers in order to save the four wheelers. It was a settlement and it only included the defendants...aka the manufactures involved Honda, Yamaha, Kawasaki, Suzuki, and Polaris.

So why did the manufactures give up trikes...sales were down and more people were buying quads. The lawyers and business managers realized it would cost more money to fight to keep three wheelers in production then they would make in profits by selling them. People want the next newest thing and three wheelers were old news. Quads were the next "IN" thing. (seems kinda familiar story to the two stroke demise and the four stroke rise doesn't it)

look at your own post were you grabbed a few statements out of hundreds of pages of legal documents

Originally posted by All250R
After months of negotiations, the Department of Justice and the major ATV manufactures AGREED at the same time...

Key word here is AGREED!!! Which was my point. it was voluntary by the manufacturers involved. It was agreed upon in 1988, again in 1998 by all previously involved plus arctic cat and except Honda, and again in 09. Keys word here is AGREEMENT

Now what you may not realize is the manufacturers have a LOT of say on whats put in these bills to be passed as law. They work hand in hand with the government and CPSC and in fact write a lot of it themselves. Its up to the CPSC to review it and pass it on to the government with there approval to make it law.

That is why a key statement is made in the Bill...Until Industry standards can be set...leaving the door open. It only states "Production" three wheelers. There are certain standards and numbers to be applied to qualify as "Production"

There is also no proof of three wheelers being more dangerous. The 2200+ cases the CPSC has on file...and its updated regularly...has shown that over 95% of them were Driver error. The CPSC conclude that there was NO INHERIANT DESIGN FLAW.

If you don't believe me read everything involved, not just the highlights or wikipedia.

All250R

11-28-2009, 11:48 AM

Black Sheep are you trying in vain to make someone think the government doesn't influence product sales, or what exactly..? Your responses are a moving target and it seems futile to respond to you in some sort of succession.

Black Sheep

11-28-2009, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by All250R
Black Sheep are you trying in vain to make someone think the government doesn't influence product sales, or what exactly..? Your responses are a moving target and it seems futile to respond to you in some sort of succession.

please re-read what I say before you continue with your wrong assumptions. NO WHERE did i say the government has no influence. What I SAID was they did not outright FORCE A BAN trikes like you originally posted.

Now, I'm not trying to do anything. I did it. Whether you think the government, the manufactures, or the buying public was the demise of trikes I don't care. I know the truth. What I do know for fact is it didn't stop me from having a brand new trike :blah: What I do know is I didn't cry over the Internet why quads took over and how it's the government or buying publics fault. What I do know is when the AMA banned trikes from there tracks three wheel enthusiast took the bull by the horn and found tracks that would accept us. Now we have promoters BEGGING us to run there tracks. I suggest that if you really feel this strong about two strokes you do what I did...sack up and build your own. Because crying over the Internet about 4strokes vs. 2 strokes is nothing more then a JOKE.

All250R

11-28-2009, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
Because crying over the Internet about 4strokes vs. 2 strokes is nothing more then a JOKE. Then shut up and go away. Obviously you're not above it or you wouldn't be here. Can you see the plain hypocrisy in your statement? Can you?? There's a 450 forum here just for you to congratulate yourself and 4strokes. Leave us to our whining.

For the record, the words I used were "mandatory moratorium". But the insanity of conversing with you is that the point wasn't whether it was a ban or "voluntary", though it sure seems like a ban. The POINT was that supply and demand is not the only factor in product supply. Can't you follow along with that without misdirecting the conversation? lol If you didn't like my 3wheeler example go cry in some milk over it. It's obvious there are more examples in this SIMPLE point I was making.

Go play with some Titanium valves somewhere. Don't forget to pat yourself on the back for nothing, particularly for your near useless contribution to this thread.

Black Sheep

11-28-2009, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by All250R
Then shut up and go away....

Do you own this forum? Or is this more whining from someone who thinks if you don't think like him your wrong?

My counterpoint to your "POINT" was supply and demand dictated the factories voluntarily gave up 3wheelers. Nothing else.

look at Yamaha and the rhino. it is being hunted by the same people that hunted trikes BUT, Yamaha sees there is still a market for them (aka $$$) so they are fighting it in court and have an aggressive ad campaign to counter the negative publicity.

how you can't grasp that simple point is beyond me. maybe it's all the two stroke fumes clogging up your brain tissue.

All250R

11-28-2009, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
My counterpoint to your "POINT" was supply and demand dictated the factories voluntarily gave up 3wheelers. Nothing else.

how you can't grasp that simple point is beyond me. maybe it's all the two stroke fumes clogging up your brain tissue.
riiiiiight. The reason Honda cut up their frames is because there was no demand for them! Gotcha! I get it now! I'm sooo done now. lol

Black Sheep

11-28-2009, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by All250R
riiiiiight. The reason Honda cut up their frames is because there was no demand for them! Gotcha! I get it now! I'm sooo done now. lol

In 1987 my local dealers floor was full of 86 ATC 250R's and 350X's that would not sell...but the TRX 250R's...they couldn't keep them in stock ;)

All250R

11-28-2009, 06:52 PM

Originally posted by Black Sheep
In 1987 my local dealers floor was full of 86 ATC 250R's and 350X's that would not sell...but the TRX 250R's...they couldn't keep them in stock ;)
Since you're the expert here hands down, what would have happened to Honda if they didn't consent to: "Stop the sale of all new three-wheeled ATVs and repurchase
them from dealer inventory"? I just want to see what you'll say.
(United States v. American Honda Motor Co., et. al. United States v. American Honda Motor Co., et. al., Civ. No. 87 , Civ. No. 87- -35253525; http://www.cpsc.gov/businfo/frnotices/fr98/atv.html)

Black Sheep

11-28-2009, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by All250R
Since you're the expert here hands down,...

I don't deal with speculation so I can't tell waht may or may not have happened if Honda Broke an agreement they helped author.

All250R

11-28-2009, 07:15 PM

Just one more time for memories!

"In the 1960s, two-stroke engines began to take root in the smaller classes. By the 1970s, two-strokes completely eclipsed the four-strokes in all classes. In 1979, Honda made an attempt to return the four-stroke to the top class with the NR500, but this project failed, and in 1983, even Honda was winning with a two-stroke 500."

factoryX

11-28-2009, 07:37 PM

it doesn't matter that 2 strokes dominated the market for 60 years, the fact is that if they spent the time and money into the 2 stroke design rather spending it on this:
http://i46.tinypic.com/5bs6zp.jpg

the 2 stroke motor would be the most powerful motor set up in the world. Did you know that if a v8 motor was built with cr500 cylinders each giving about 100hp each, it would be one of the most powerful 4 liter v-8 motors ever made...if not the most powerful with the weight of a 4 cylinder 4 stroke motor... oh and this is before a turbo or supercharger..

tommygunnz

11-28-2009, 07:43 PM

Originally posted by factoryX
it doesn't matter that 2 strokes dominated the market for 60 years, the fact is that if they spent the time and money into the 2 stroke design rather spending it on this:
http://i46.tinypic.com/5bs6zp.jpg

the 2 stroke motor would be the most powerful motor set up in the world. Did you know that if a v8 motor was built with cr500 cylinders each giving about 100hp each, it would be one of the most powerful 4 liter v-8 motors ever made...if not the most powerful with the weight of a 4 cylinder 4 stroke motor... oh and this before a turbo or supercharger.. damn whats the story with that head!

factoryX

11-28-2009, 07:49 PM

just a pic off of what happens when you put to many valves in close quarters with each other. I found it off of a site, but I don't remember which one.

Derrick Adams

11-28-2009, 08:44 PM

This was a really great thread until it got drug off in left field, then beat to death by a 20 year old topic. Thanks for ruining 3 pages of a great thread that made no contribution to whether or not "250R's can compete in modern MX".

skyeryder

11-28-2009, 08:56 PM

Black Sheep

11-28-2009, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
This was a really great thread until it got drug off in left field, then beat to death by a 20 year old topic. Thanks for ruining 3 pages of a great thread that made no contribution to whether or not "250R's can compete in modern MX".

LOL...like the whole topic of 250R's being competitive in MX hasn't been beat to death :rolleyes: Besides your not innocent of ruining threads ;)

The whole thing is pointless...MX is all about rider...you and I as well as most others know it.

Of course a 250R can be competitive against a 450R. a two stroke is lighter and quicker. There should be no debate about it.

Of course the manufactures are gonna support a Pro Production class. It could hurt sales if 20 year old machines could beat the latest newest thing. There should be no debate about it.

Of course the sanctioning bodies are gonna side with the manufactures. Your yearly dues do not come close to the money the manufactures pay to sponsor these race series. Or in donations they make to sanctioning bodies, And it's not like the riders stood up and protested or boycotted this to try and stop it. There should be no debate.

If all you 250R fans want to race against the 450R's so bad get a petition going and try and do something about it besides coming in here to ***** about it.

And this ladies and gentlemen is why off roaders lose three wheelers, Riding areas, two strokes, and other rights. No one ever stands up and fights for there rights. You think the AMA is one your side :rolleyes: The AMA does whats best for the AMA not the individual rider.

factoryX

11-29-2009, 04:29 AM

hey black sheep, if I get my bike done with the 310, inverts, and swinger by ok rampage, its on...

John Noftsinger

11-29-2009, 08:06 AM

If they allow the 250r,s to race 450,s then they need to change rule on aftermaket frames ! the only thing stock on a 250r is the tran,s case,s everything aftermaket/lightweight,do the same for the 450 and they you,ll see some racing !

tommygunnz

11-29-2009, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by John Noftsinger
If they allow the 250r,s to race 450,s then they need to change rule on aftermaket frames ! the only thing stock on a 250r is the tran,s case,s everything aftermaket/lightweight,do the same for the 450 and they you,ll see some racing ! once again the 250R is atleast 20 years old while the 450s have brand new frames with years of new age developement so I thing a after market 250R frame shouldnt be such a big deal while I can see limiting the ccs on the 2stroke because when you start getting past 300 ccs the 2stroke starts shinning on the 4 stroke even though its still an old design with way less displacement:blah:

Black Sheep

11-29-2009, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by factoryX
hey black sheep, if I get my bike done with the 310, inverts, and swinger by ok rampage, its on...

:rolleyes: be careful this thread is about 250R' in modern MX. We don't want to upset anyone in here with talk of 310R's in sand dunes.

besides you must not be paying attention lately...I just had surgery on my shoulder...I'm out for the year....no riding for me. :grr: Even if i could ride...I don't drag race.

factoryX

11-29-2009, 02:48 PM

who said anything about drag racing?

Black Sheep

11-29-2009, 02:54 PM

Originally posted by factoryX
who said anything about drag racing?

lol, my bad. usually when you hear about people racing in the sand its drag racing. What did you have in mind :confused:

Lasher

11-30-2009, 09:03 AM

MX conversation here...

There are two aspects that can be compared:

Handling (chassis)

I have had many discussions from chassis builders to ex-pros about the different chassis out there. In my opinion...
The 250R aftermarket chassis (including weight of motor) is still the best handling chassis to date. Period. (Laeger, Walsh, Lobo)
Next would be the crf hybrids. Simply because they are based off the 250R aftermarket designs.
Lastly would be all the current production quad chassis.

Power (motor)

Sorry, but I have not played on a 450cc 4 stroke quad, but from racing with them on my 265cc 2 stroke, they have the advantage. Now if I bumped up to 330 say...I don't think the power would matter. They say that a 4 stroke will allow you to ride faster....longer. But my races are 4 laps long, not 30 minutes + 2 laps.

Over all my years racing...since the 250R was all there was, to 400ex (modified or not), to the newer quads I have found the rider makes all the difference in MX. I have beaten every type of quad out there, and lost to every quad out there.

All250R

11-30-2009, 10:49 AM

Have you guys noticed that even though he thinks the thread is pointless he needs to have the last word in it? lol

Lasher

11-30-2009, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by All250R
Have you guys noticed that even though he thinks the thread is pointless he needs to have the last word in it? lol

Who...me?

All250R

11-30-2009, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by Lasher
Who...me? No. No.

All250R

11-30-2009, 11:01 AM

woodsracer144

11-30-2009, 01:03 PM

this is a little off topic but i've been thinkin about this for a few day... if they have a pro production... why dont they have a pro production where you run factory stock quads... you cant mod a single thing on them...? yamaha suzuki KTM can am say they are soo race ready... why dont they keep them stock and see what they are made of...

Lasher

11-30-2009, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by woodsracer144
this is a little off topic but i've been thinkin about this for a few day... if they have a pro production... why dont they have a pro production where you run factory stock quads... you cant mod a single thing on them...? yamaha suzuki KTM can am say they are soo race ready... why dont they keep them stock and see what they are made of...

Very simple...$$$$

Why is there a production rule for pro's....$$$$$

If they do not allow any mods, then all the aftermarket sponsorship money would be gone. Plus, do you really think the factories want the pros to race stock quads?

My guess...KTM would rule followed by Can-Am, then the rest.

In our local series, they have Production classes. This past year Can-Am was pretty much the only quad (due to contingency) racing. Next year, KTM and Can Am are going to be offering some contingency so those two will battle. But the other big 4...not a chance they can run stock for stock with those two.