Poll

[Pappy]

Here is the question, or scenario....


You work hard, get good at racing. Build up a team and collect sponsors. You are at the top of your game and compete with the best in the world. You have countless hours invested as well as untold amounts of your money, as well as the money given to you by legit sponsors who pay for the right to be on your team.

You are on the line at Loretta Lynn's, you walk up to your quad and you see a companies graphics kit on your quad that isnt your sponsor, you look back in the pits and see another company has plastered your trailer with their advertising. You have recieved no compensation for the advertising they are recieving, you recieved no support or help from said companies.


What do you do?

[Robin Hood]

Rip it off unless it was one of my sponsors.

[yellowzo3]

Sort of similar, but James Stewart was doing a conference or whatever they do with the press and they placed Rockstar cans (I think) next to him to infer that he was drinking Rockstar while he was up there. But hes sponsored by Redbull. He took the cans and put them under the table and some journalist started questioning him about why he did it lol... He basically told them politely why he did it and that was that.

But I would be furious if my own property was plastered with companies crap. Isn't that vandalism?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by Robin Hood
Rip it off unless it was one of my sponsors.

Im being cynical here.....but why? If we are all in this sport shouldnt we just do what we like and not worry about those that are actually footing the bill to keep programs running? Honda should not be upset of Yamaha throws a GYTR graphics kit on Joe Byrds ride (yeah I know Byrd and Honda are done, just an example)

Can Am/BRP should allow say Arctic cat to park a rig at the Nats to show folks their machines and have banners at the track but let Can Am pay to be the main sponsor....when Arctic Cat doesnt pay for the right to be there.....

One big happy free family right?

[yellowzo3]

Originally posted by Pappy
Im being cynical here.....but why? If we are all in this sport shouldnt we just do what we like and not worry about those that are actually footing the bill to keep programs running? Honda should not be upset of Yamaha throws a GYTR graphics kit on Joe Byrds ride (yeah I know Byrd and Honda are done, just an example)

Can Am/BRP should allow say Arctic cat to park a rig at the Nats to show folks their machines and have banners at the track but let Can Am pay to be the main sponsor....when Arctic Cat doesnt pay for the right to be there.....

One big happy free family right?

Pappy, what are you trying to get at here?

For instance, some manufacturers don't support the atv racing community or series any more. I don't feel they should be given free advertising and the right to promote their products free of charge, while other manufacturers and companies are paying good money to show their support and get their name out there. Is that kind of what you're trying to say or am I way off?

[DEVINF450R]

I see your point but that poll is green apples to red apples, similar but not the same, you make your money off of your services, that rider makes money on his advertising space only. To accurately compare we would have to say, what would you do if you PC'ed a frame, woke up in the morning and overnight the owner came and got it without paying? that is the same as the graphics on the pro riders quad w/o paying

[Pappy]

Originally posted by yellowzo3
Pappy, what are you trying to get at here?

For instance, some manufacturers don't support the atv racing community or series any more. I don't feel they should be given free advertising and the right to promote their products free of charge, while other manufacturers and companies are paying good money to show their support and get their name out there. Is that kind of what you're trying to say or am I way off?

Yeah in my last post thats the premis...its sort of away from the poll topic but same deal. I wasnt singling out any one or company ....just the point that if you are going to advertise, you pay for it in some form, if not then you dont get it for free.

[hondariderdylan]

i think if your that high up in your sport than they should be removed and someone would need to be talked to

if you were an ameteur racer than i dont think it would matter as much:ermm:

[Pappy]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
I see your point but that poll is green apples to red apples, similar but not the same, you make your money off of your services, that rider makes money on his advertising space only. To accurately compare we would have to say, what would you do if you PC'ed a frame, woke up in the morning and overnight the owner came and got it without paying? that is the same as the graphics on the pro riders quad w/o paying

This topic has ZERO to do with me or my business....

In either case, the monies are lost , revenue lost due to either a rider not being paid for his advertisning space, or in your example a company loosing due to non payment while the other parties involved recieved goods or service(advertising) with no cost.

Revenue is revenue, how its made does not negate the fact that a servicve or product is worth a value, if its stolen or not paid for that value is lost.

[DEVINF450R]

I agree with you Pappy, I just dont see how when its not the actual COMPANY posting things up on the forum, it is free advertising. I know I have mentioned how awesome my PC job from BK Performance was on other atv sites that had never heard of you. So should I refrain from that b/c you didnt pay me to say that?

[Pappy]

You are mixing two subjects here.

But to answer your question, I ask noone to spread the word through spam on other sites. Just like here, things can be discussed, companies discussed but i would not want anyone linking to me or my business if it were against the site rules.

As far as it being the actual company, take the poll topic and say a spectator walks up and slaps on a few competitor stickers. I wouldnt expect the rider to be compensated but asure you they would immediatel be removed from the machine. Just like when we remove a link from this site.

[OutlawBill]

Look at NASCAR you have to put on NASCAR sponsors sticker on you car to race. They pay NASCAR and if you want to race you have to use the NASCAR mandated stickers to pass tech.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by yellowzo3
Sort of similar, but James Stewart was doing a conference or whatever they do with the press and they placed Rockstar cans (I think) next to him to infer that he was drinking Rockstar while he was up there. But hes sponsored by Redbull. He took the cans and put them under the table and some journalist started questioning him about why he did it lol... He basically told them politely why he did it and that was that.

But I would be furious if my own property was plastered with companies crap. Isn't that vandalism?

And he did it in a professional manner by your description.

It could be vandalism , did not mean for it to sound that way, its just a hypothetical scenario.

Now, is it wrong for a rider to expect compensation for a company to advertise?

Is it wrong for a company to think that the support they are giving a rider, series, any form of advertising, should be protected so that other companies cant freeload off their investment?

[derekhonda]

The bottom line is no, that's not right. When you build something up....like a race career, to the point where people want to advertise/and support your racing career, then it is not right for a company that has not compensated you in anyway/shape/form to advertise off of your success.

Now what point were you trying to make with your situations?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by derekhonda


Now what point were you trying to make with your situations?

I want everyone to see where we are coming from when we have to delete spam or what we deem advertising from the site.

Think of this site as our Pro quad sitting on that line.

There may be 20 more just like it, but this one is ours and we have our contracts and support to uphold and to promote. I agree it is sort of different because we usually dont tell you to only buy brand XYZ , thats not our job, our job is to offer our sponsors the ability to be exposed to possible purchasers etc.

If companies outside our sponsorship/advertiser base want to be part of our success, then they can do it the correct way. If they choose to support another rider then thats fine as well, or they may be partners with many riders (Media Outlets) however they will have to pay to be here.

Much like the race track, they are free to mingle amongst our membership, help educate them and enjoy the site. And just like the race track, if they are not a series sponsor or affiliate, they can not sell their wares.

[usp4u]

i view it more as a disservice to the paying sponsors that are already on the "team". they paid to be on your bike, so should the next company. now, if you just have stickers on your bike b/c of the parts you run and ARE NOT receiving any compensation to begin with, I'd let them put their logo on my bike if they asked first.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by usp4u
i view it more as a disservice to the paying sponsors that are already on the "team". they paid to be on your bike, so should the next company.

I personally view it as disrespectful, but my country boy ways tend to differ from what the internet affords people. I would never go to another site and promote this site unless we were working partners and permission was granted. I would never go and promote my own business unless an arrangement was made through monetary compensation or barter was in place. Unfortunatley, as this economy worsens, we are seeing ALOT more of it here and I wanted to get ahead of it and HOPEFULLY have folks see how we view things and prevent people from blowing their lid.

Quite honestly, I still give a crap after all these years and my hope is that others will follow my lead.

[yellowzo3]

I don't think anyone has any problems with you guys categorizing/deleting spam on the site. :confused: ....Of course everyone is going to converse back and forth about where to buy parts and such and thats what the site is for. But we all recognize the site sponsors and the spammers are quickly taken care of. Site sponsors are well respected on all of the forums i frequent and we use them as much as we can.

Edit- Do legit companies come on here often to promote their business? I have to say I rarely see any of that anymore. I think I saw it the most around a year ago. The most I see is kids promoting their "business" which is probably run out of a garage and the occasional member sharpening footpegs or whatever lol

[Pappy]

Originally posted by yellowzo3
I don't think anyone has any problems with you guys categorizing/deleting spam on the site. :confused:

You just wouldnt believe it.....

[QuadJunkies]

I knew right away where this was going and I feel the same way.. That was a great example and I hope that it makes everyone understand better.
Its not right at all.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by yellowzo3


Edit- Do legit companies come on here often to promote their business? I have to say I rarely see any of that anymore. I think I saw it the most around a year ago. The most I see is kids promoting their "business" which is probably run out of a garage and the occasional member sharpening footpegs or whatever lol

Yes, there is quite a few...some have signed up under new names, some have others do it for them, some play it as a game.

I also see the kids and backyard stuff, but it has to be an across the board deal. No advertising. I sure aint against someone showing a new project, heck there are guys cnc'n their own parts or making their own a-arms..cool as hell to see and it doesnt get removed unless they start advertising a service.

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by yellowzo3
I don't think anyone has any problems with you guys categorizing/deleting spam on the site. :confused: care of. Site sponsors are well respected on all of the forums i frequent and we use them as much as we can.


Thats actually incorrect. We do have ALOT of great folks here that do play by the rules but more than ever with tough times people do look for the easy way to advertise and abuse sites. The Admin. (and Pappy for that matter) have dedicated ALOT of time to make this site what it is today,this is the Admin.'s business! I think if the shoe was on the other foot for those who offend would feel quite differently.
Its great you use the site sponsors. :)

[Pappy]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
That was a great example and I hope that it makes everyone understand better.


I figured I would try and get people to think about what they have invested in their program and how they would feel if they were in that situation.

[yellowzo3]

Originally posted by QuadJunkies
Thats actually incorrect. We do have ALOT of great folks here that do play by the rules but more than ever with tough times people do look for the easy way to advertise and abuse sites. The Admin. (and Pappy for that matter) have dedicated ALOT of time to make this site what it is today,this is the Admin.'s business! I think if the shoe was on the other foot for those who offend would feel quite differently.
Its great you use the site sponsors. :)

I think I phrased that wrong lol. I meant the members that are not spamming have no problems with you guys deleting stuff. Its nice to see that its taken care of quickly so the site doesn't end up in chaos. Of course the people advertising will see it as unfair or whatever but thats their problem and they aren't playing by the rules so the punishment is fitting.

I have seen a few members promote certain businesses around the site in the most random places haha. I didn't realize established businesses try to sneak around on the site though!

[DEVINF450R]

I CAN NOT STRESS I AGREE 100% THAT ADVERTISING SHOULD BE PAID FOR, I JUST THINK IT SUCKS THAT PPL CAN NOT POST A PICTURE OF THE NEW FOX FLOAT B/C FOX IS NOT A SPONSOR. IF YOU MAKE A THREAD ARGUING THIS, IT GETS DELETED. I IN NO WAY WANT OR NEED TO ADVERTISE ON HERE I JUST FEEL LIKE "BIG BROTHER" IS CONTROLLING EVERYTHING HERE.

There, im done with it. I do agree and understand this site is a business but it's purpose is to get and receive info from other riders and mechanics and so forth, so why is it that the info we receive is edited? I think that part sucks. the main purpose of this site have changed from informational to capitalistic:(

but I only run names of companies that sponsor me on my quad's graphics, but i dont remove the companies name from every part i get from a non sponsor. (ie, my precision doesnt have a Fox sticker over the precision name, nor is precision blacked out)

[Pappy]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
I think that part sucks. the main purpose of this site have changed from informational to capitalistic:(


This site has had supporting sponsors since day 1 to help with the cost....as we have grown so has our sponsors list and that in turn has allowed us to provide race coverage and articles and to grow even further. We dont rely on others info,we get our own as we travel this country and pay for info globally and it costs money to do this.

This site expends an enormous amount of money to get the info we get, the forums generate almost ZERO funds and we must rely on our sponsors to help defray the expenses.

You find away to cover our expenses and we wont need advertisers....the info is still flowing as always, but the advertising is being shut off even further. maybe when you have a family to support and mouths to feed you will understand the need to earn an income and not just break even.

btw..do YOU work for free?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
I only run names of companies that sponsor me on my quad's graphics, but i dont remove the companies name from every part i get from a non sponsor. (ie, my precision doesnt have a Fox sticker over the precision name, nor is precision blacked out)

And this is your choice. It was YOUR money that bought those items and you are free to advertise them on your machine as you see fit. The discount you may have recieved for running these items is money saved out of your pocket. You dont see me telling you that you cant do it your way on your ride....this site is my ride.

And you PAID for those items, they were not given free, that is capitalism. Your money for a product. Im sure if companies just gave away their items they would stay in business....no? You are free to visit here for FREE, you just have to follow our advertising rules.....it cost you nothing to come here thanks to our sponsors.

As far as the Fox shock, they are a sponsor here...but the fighting and bickering and eventual advertising forced that thread to be removed. I can go at this all day, with the facts to back up what I am stating, or we can go with the big brother/capitalistic approach, which sounds more plausable?

[QuadJunkies]

Originally posted by yellowzo3
I have seen a few members promote certain businesses around the site in the most random places haha. I didn't realize established businesses try to sneak around on the site though!

We all talk about products,share our ideas ,talk about our builds.. whats new and such..ect... nothing wrong with that at all!
Nor is there anything wrong about telling people about a product that you strongly feel good about -its HOW its being promoted .
DIRECT LINKS.... Do you feel that this would be considered a form of advertising? ABSOLUETLY.

The site is a mound of knowledge , everyone just needs to understand why the rules on advertising are being strictly enforced. When you have and investment, it has to be protected .

[Quad18star]

Great example .

May I also take this time to make a few SIMPLE requests to the members?

Lately there's been a lot of people posting topics under the wrong catagories and they are doing it knowing it's under the wrong sections.

I think myself and the rest of the moderators have been generous enough to move it into the correct section .... but when I read something like " Well I'm going to post it here because I had no replies anywhere else" or " I know it's in the wrong section but ..." it just frustrates me.

We try and keep things organized and tidy ... but from now on if you post something in a section that you KNOW is the wrong area to put it in , I will just delete it rather than move it.

I speak for myself ... the other moderators may want to move it ... but it just frustrates me too much to want help out a member that knows they are putting it in the wrong area.

[coryatver]

I have posted direct links to companys and other web sites that have been deleted. From my point of view it is very frustrating.

Because for me its just like I am bsing with guys in the garage about quads. Say there is a link to a products web site with the latest product on it I can't post a direct link to it. And some other sites sometimes have an article that is useful, helpful, and so on and it will get deleted very very frustrating. If you want to have discussions like that there are other websites that allow it. But they don't have some things this website has. On another website i go to atvriders is even linked to directly often with discussion about articles exriders has. You can't even type the name of that website on here without it being censored out.

I guess it just comes with the way our sport is today. We all asked for it when there was no money in it and now we got it and this is the price we pay.

I do understand where you are coming from. People make a living from this website. The articles and race coverage is awesome. I don't want to go back to the days of just getting dirt wheels with 2 month old news in it. You just have to remember you might not be getting the whole story or the bad details that are held back for fear of saying anything negative about sponsors. But that is the way it is for any information source.

[TM426]

I think I would take pictures and confront the owner of the company and see how he handles the situation. I would demand compensation. What makes the owner of that business think he is entitled to advertise on your equipment for free when others have to pay? If the business owner was giving lots of stickers, and graphic kits out to individual b and c riders just to get his name out, I may support him with one small one on my air scoop. Ha Running a race team isn't free to you. You have to pay for fuel, travel, parts, lodging, and allot of other things I'm missing. You are able to partake and be successful due to paying and parts from sponsors.

[Guy400]

What kills me is all the people who think they have the right to come to this site and advertise their business. When we delete the threads/links we get PMs or replies saying it's censorship and it's a free country, etc.

#1. The Constitution doesn't guarantee your right to post on an internet site that's privately owned.

#2. These same punks that wrongly advertise on this site would scream bloody murder if we went to their site and posted links for someone else's business. Could you imagine going to CT's website and seeing a link saying to use Sparks for engine work instead?

[Quad18star]

Originally posted by coryatver
I have posted direct links to companys and other web sites that have been deleted. From my point of view it is very frustrating.



....People make a living from this website.

That right there answers all the questions .

Someone is trying to make a living off this website .... someone has spent hours upon hours for years getting this website to where it is. Someone has spent hours trying to seal a deal with sponsors to keep this website up and running .

It's frustrating to see hard work be mooched off of by companies or individuals that are using someone else's hard work to move their product forward.

If it wouldn't be for sponsors ,we wouldn't get all the great coverage that is offered , we wouldn't get the product reviews , the information about new model releases and so on. The advertising seen on this website is what brings us the information we see on here.

Like the example says ... you wouldn't allow a company to plaster stickers all over your quad without consent ... so why is it OK to plaster advertising all over someone else's website?

[Pappy]

I know where Cory is coming from, and ive stated before, most of the time a direct linking is not meant as advertising, but from years of expeirence and dealing with those that want it for free, we have to make the policy across the board, if not, when I log on I have someone who's link was removed crying foul because someone else posted a link.

There are other means to get the information posted so there really isnt a huge issue as I see it.

BTW...I know of one company that made over $38,000 in less then 6 months on this site by covertly advertising. This person admitted it to me and was open with the info. He was also asked to either support the site or move, he moved on. This type of thing just makes me not worry a lick about those who cry about us handling our business the way we handle it.

[coryatver]

never seen that side of it and i will have to say i understand better where you are coming from now.

[Pappy]

Yeah it gets miserable when you spent your last $75 to fill up coming home from covering an event or doing an article shoot and be broke, only to have to deal with people who have no issues making money off the site but refuse to pay their share. These same people usually do not support the site in any manner....none, no picture sales, no sticker, hats tshirts nothing.....same SOB's that tell you face to face they love the site, on it all the time blah blah blah......but wont help in anyway. They are freeloaders. Tell you they cant afford it but roll up in a $400,000 rig.

We have turned to places outside this site to support what we do just so we can afford to do it. Thats like you working another job to help support the first one.....anyone who has had to do this knows very well why we would want to make sure that anyone making cake off our dime helps in some fashion.

And its not all about the $$, it is alot about principle. Folks dont want to help..cool....we have been growing and doing it our way so no worries, infact this year alone we grew by almost double our target. Companies dont want to help, thats fine, just dont expect us to help you in any fashion. Then there are the ones who dont pay their bills yet get touted to be the best in the business etc.....trust me, if I unloaded what I feel there would be some upset folks, but that wouldnt be professional.

The only solice...this bad economy will weed out the ones that have been freeloading all over the place. You can only get by so long on not carrying your weight. Those who remain will be solid and willing to partner up and grow....unless they get bailed out by the Obama:p

[DEVINF450R]

Well as I have said I understand now a bit more that the website needs to make money to run and I think the ppl that do the work on the site should get paid well for their efforts b/c this is a great site. I will buy some apparel and help support it now. But my real frustration was with the redesigned fox float thread getting deleted. I dont really see how that great debate was advertising but oh well... I know its not my call what is and is not advertising and I am glad to have a site like this to get information from. Thanks ATVRiders

[Pappy]

Originally posted by DEVINF450R
I know its not my call what is and is not advertising

It wasnt just advertising, it was a pissing match between two builders. One of which was pretty close to getting an *** reaming by a member he treated like crap in that thread. I was going to clean it up but it was so mixed with crap it was pointless.

I dont know either builder in the thread, could careless. If you cant discuss tech stuff with out being a total *** wipe or treat people decent, the info wont be used here.

[protraxrptr17]

I used to get aggravated when links and names were deleted , but I grew up and learned to live with it. You have to draw the line somewhere. If I could make $38,000 dollars by advertising here, I would definitely do it.

I once inquired about becoming a site sponsor and never got a reply. Don't know if my request got lost (I'm sure there are so many messages and e-mails that some get overlooked), or just ignored because I'm not a real manufacturer. Anyway, if ya'll will pm me or something with some prices I might be interested if I can afford it. This is a great place and I want to say thank you to the people that work here. Keep up the good work and know that I'm behind ya'll with the deleting spam. :cool:

[Pappy]

protrax, I will get the info to the proper person when he returns form the upper midwest.