new fox floats thread??

[motardracer]

What happened to the updated fox evol thread?? That conversation was just getting interesting!

[Mrs. SFRacing]

yea whats up with that?

[racernorris]

if your not a site sponsor your not supposed to advertise your business on here.

when i said pep's sales stalled (well i guess you had to be around back when i raced) in the mid to late 90's pep's was the top of the line, by 2000 axis came along, then elka, and now fox..........back then pep's used check balls and springs on there front shock to control fluid movement (very similar to works)........this is why i said pep's had to re engineer there product........axis, elka, fox and several more have always been shim stack front shocks.

now is it a bad thing that a company like fox is mass producing there shocks to keep the price lower for there customers, i have said for years that this sport can not grow because we hand build everything one piece at a time (that's why it costs so much), and until we start mass manufacturing our products the price will always be to high for the average rider! i know there can be problems with mass produced products, but that's why we have competition in business, this makes us build better products to keep up and/or be better than your competitor.

most riders i know need all the help they can get, and companies like fox sponsor several riders (now think about this..is that such a bad thing?) as for warranty.....of all the problems i have seen with fox shocks, they have bent over back wards to correct ever single problem (no more problems than any of the others), replaced parts, replaced complete shocks, and paid shipping both ways!!!!

now by all means, if you firmly believe that pb1's are the only shock that will please you, then rob a bank and get you some!!!

if i ever race again i WILL ride fox shock, and for now i am happy with there product, by the way axis is redesigning there air shock!

[rkw327]

Originally posted by Mrs. SFRacing
yea whats up with that?

there was some good info in that tread maybe someone should start it up on the ******** site and see if it take off there too
so much for freedom of speech :confused:


what up Seth

[Mrs. SFRacing]

Who is advertising? Im just putting my 2 cents in, isnt this an open forum for discussion?

[XBLASTERRACERX]

Yeh that thread was just starting to get good. racemorris do you know what axis is doing to there pro airs just because I bought a set about a month ago and I really don't want to get them updated already?

[CADWELL]

I went to work after posting about comparisons between PEP, Motowoz and EXIT and the price variance.....

I get home to open up the thread, and it's gone lol...

Was looking foward to hearing from SF on this matter simply because I would like to know exactly what I'm getting for my money from the PB1's vs. a different reputable coil over shock....

[TNT]

Butt musk maybe you and MRS.SF should start a thread on PEP shocks or comparing shocks.

RacerNorris good post I'll be back when I got a little more time to explain mass production. I work as a ME on such a 24-7 line now speaking of which I need to get ready and get there now.....lol!

Got a meeting in a couple hours on the subject I am taking a stick build(hand) made assemble looking at cost to automate, tooling, etc....

In the meantime start thinking about what can be automated on a shock, sub assemble without effecting the the final assy or quality of the final installation on the quad, and what up front cost there would be and how you get your money back?

[TNT]

Originally posted by racernorris


now is it a bad thing that a company like fox is mass producing there shocks to keep the price lower for there customers, i have said for years that this sport can not grow because we hand build everything one piece at a time (that's why it costs so much), and until we start mass manufacturing our products the price will always be to high for the average rider! i know there can be problems with mass produced products, but that's why we have competition in business, this makes us build better products to keep up and/or be better than your competitor.


Let’s talk about manufacturing automation and whether or not it means lower cost to the end user. I work for a Fortune 5 Corporation so what I am about to describe you can scale down a little for FOX.

Just got out of my meeting very frustrated, trying to take a hand made assemble of about 15 parts assembled on work benches by old school methods, sub-assemble and tool them better and put them into an assembly line that may be impacted. To do this my “Integrated Product Team” is comprised of a tool designer, myself a Manufacturing-Design Engineer, Procurement Agent, Contracts (since some of my parts are purchased), and a Quality Engineer. Mind you smaller companies won’t have these resources, so far drawing on these resources has cost the company significant money and we just got started, let’s not loose site of who will ultimately pay the price for my effort, “the end user”.

So what can we automate in the build process of a FOX shock, and is there enough there to recouped our cost for our efforts? I’m not a shock designer or fabricator, my guess is very little..... a piston and rod machined on a lathe from bar stock, the body welded rolled sheet metal or extruded tube purchased and mill cut to size, shims from alum plate stock, fluid and seal probably purchased, etc.... It's time and materials.

So if we use air vs springs does that reduce our cost? Hmmmm, maybe! Spring material and assemble cost vs air chambers seals and testing. Maybe the same assemble man hours, maybe less material cost with air/seals.

The final assemble you could have jig located, maybe not necessary, but I would think the eye locations need it.

I’m sorry but unless someone can enlighten me I just don’t see a lot of automation or man hour reductions on a shock worth the machinery or upfront tooling cost. Of course there will be a unit sale (ie mfg # 2,000) we recoup our cost and profit after…..As far I can see the majority has to be hand built, then it boils down to experience, workmanship, and quality.

Many high volume companies are schedule driven, not quality driven, and sometimes there’s a fine line between the two. They are out to get their production rate up vs others that want to deliver a quality product. Problem with high production rates is if there are not enough resources(skilled people, tooling, inventory, etc) it’s such a scramble to get the product out there little effort is afforded to quality. Automation does not necessary mean quality and less cost to the end user, large company’s battle this one all the time with continuously quality improvement and cost reduction processes in place. A big portion of that starts with the design.

Well off to get finance to see how many man hours we currently use as my baseline cost I need to beat by my automation. I’ll need to look at my line to see if I sub-assy what down stream problems I cause. I’m looking at the design for manufacturing issues and may change the design. I know of one area it would reduce the assemble man hours. Maybe I should just send the whole da** thing to FOX lol for low cost production??? J/K!!!!!

You get the picture……:D

[motofreak2772]

I heard there was a pic.... can I get a link?

[Pappy]

Make sure this thread stays on topic....last one was great if your into a pissing contest and bravado.

[mxduner]

I agree with tnt with his points, as i have been in mfg. for 9 years. I just don't see them shaving cost as you stated on the demand vs. cost savings per unit, to justify the changes. But here is what i'm gonna step on a limb with. Maybe they know about, or have forcasted a major contract with, hmm let me see... polaris? if so, not just on their outlaws but maybe the snowmobile line?

That would be a good move for fox if it did happen. The other thread was very good and informative, and had great insite.

[racernorris]

first thing is design (correct), if your design is simple (but effective) then break it down, take bids on machine work, casting, and hardware.

the only thing i know for sure......i got a couple friends who own machine shops, and they both agree on this, the more they produce, the lower the cost, on there end they negotiate prices with there vendors for the raw material (you guessed it) the more they buy the cheaper it is...............if i build one quad, i have a lot more hours just figuring out how everything goes, if i build two more the amount of time i waste is less, now if i automate some or most of the process, i don't have to pay workers comp, fica, furnish health insurance etc.......does any body else see where this is going...maybe its just me. in the end its all about the design and managing the production. at some point, you will not be able to make it any cheaper, but if you can buy the product for $100 to $500 less isn't that what we are talking about(now were just talking shocks, how about the total package) instead of $15,000 for a race ready quad, it only cost $8000, how many more riders could afford to race?

as for axis air shocks....i will let you know more detail tomorrow night......some of use girls have to work tomorrow.

[TNT]

I think if you look at just the past five years in this industry lean design and manufacturing process have dropped the cost of the race quad significantly through automation, supply and demand. OEM’s competing for the “Race Ready” quad drove the lean processes, as you pointed out Norris. Too bad the economy got in the way this year, but it will rebound and we will see further consolidations at the OEM level, it’s the best place for cost reductions on the OEM assemble line, that is where the volume is.

Back to shocks….big issue with the current market design is tuning, too complex for the average racer making automation look very appealing in the future. As with fuel control, as some may resist, I believe the future is in Computer Controlled Shocks employing sensors, programmable solid state computers, electrically operate valves, etc…..It will be a challenge then to control the springs stored energy making the coil over shock obsolete. A new design that provides a full range of adjustability based on terrain, a fully automatic self adjustment of compression and rebound characteristics in which air can play a part. Maybe that is where the FOX air shocks future is.

[Fred55]

Another option for the future is also magnetic-rheological shocks, where the shock fluid actually has magnetic particles suspended in it. A magnetic field is then applied to the shock body by applying a current to magnetic coil around the shock, causing the particles to align and therefore increase viscosity. The more current applied, the higher the viscosity and the stiffer the shock. All of this is infinitely variable. This can be changed 1000's of times per second and faster than electronic valves can change. Cadillac, among other high end manufacturers are already using this technology in their cars.

[Mrs. SFRacing]

Cost of materials fox=6061 aluminum bodies and parts pep=4130 material hmmmm i know which one costs more.

[protraxrptr17]

Yes, I have been working on my own design in my head during some of my daydreams, of a shock that has some sort of rotary design that is essentially a AC generator. It works kind of like the wheel motors on a locomotive. The resistance on the output of the generator/motor could be changed by a computer based on velocity and position. You could tune your shocks with a laptop. It's just a daydream. I have done no r&d whatsoever, so if somebody wants to shoot this idea down, go ahead.

As far as mass producing parts, it can really be effective in lowering cost. When I order material for a job, I have seen the price drop by half when I increased number of pieces. Its the same on the finished product end, especially when dealing with automation. Sometimes it may take me almost all day to setup, program, and refine just one part (I have to hand program, no CAD). The actual cutting time may only be a couple minutes. If I'm making only one of those, the price may be $400. If you want 100 of those parts, it may only be like $1000 and the quality is the same.

Now, when I went to Loretta's in '08 I did see a few Fox rear shocks fail. I also saw alot of bikes running Fox in the pits jacked up with the shocks off. Don't know if that means anything, just an observation. They look like they would be a pain to work on too.

SF, did you race (or still) 25 plus at some nationals?

[dustin_j]

There's some good discussion going on here. Has anyone seen the Bose suspension/shock design? The idea uses linear electromagnetic motors to provide resistance. Pretty sweet, look it up. The only problem with this for use on ATVs is the power requirement, and the need for a robust controller and sensors.

Zeb, your idea is similar; probably more appropriate for use on ATVs. Good thinking.

[motohanks]

Originally posted by dustin_j
There's some good discussion going on here. Has anyone seen the Bose suspension/shock design? The idea uses linear electromagnetic motors to provide resistance. Pretty sweet, look it up. The only problem with this for use on ATVs is the power requirement, and the need for a robust controller and sensors.

Zeb, your idea is similar; probably more appropriate for use on ATVs. Good thinking.
the Bose thing is exactly what I was going to mention. I came across it while working on my freshman engineering group project. We are trying to find a way to model the recovery of energy through a cars suspension. The bose system appears to keep the car so stable it's amazing.

[motofreak2772]

Originally posted by Pappy
Make sure this thread stays on topic....last one was great if your into a pissing contest and bravado.

Whoa bold new graphics haha... whats different?

[TNT]

Originally posted by Mrs. SFRacing
Cost of materials fox=6061 aluminum bodies and parts pep=4130 material hmmmm i know which one costs more.

4130 steel
Cost: Tubing $4/ft
Weight: .284 lb cu-in
Tensile Yield: 63100 psi
Shear Modulus: 116, 000 ksi
Modulus of Elasticity: 297000 ksi

6061 AL
Cost: Tubing $1.50/ft
Weight: .0975 lb cu-in
Tensile Yield: 40,000 psi
Shear Modulus: 3300 ksi
Modulus of Elasticity: 10,000 ksi

If I were designing the body of a shock I would size it or show it good to the “Tensile Yeild” since under compressive fluid load, 6061 is about 2/3 rds that of 4130. Tensile Yield is where the material starts to give or creep. Not exactly sure what tensile load we see on the outer wall, but will assume is not over 40,000 psi and the Aluminum is fine. Also the aluminum is 1/3 the weight and cost.

You can look at the Modulus of Elasticity which is the force to deform, but I would think AL has plenty of strength. If I were FOX I’d stick with the 4130 around the air chamber since its thermal conductivity is 4 times that of 6061...who knows maybe thats one of the design changes. In any case the cost difference per foot is insignificant.

You HAVE to look at the application size the design to determine material cost..You CANNOT just look at dollar figures! :D

[racernorris]

i would like to ask a question of all that are participating in this forum!!!!!!!!! this question goes deeper than just racing, but we will get to that later!!!!


what drives us to compete? what motivates us to be better than the rest (or the average person)? what is it that gives you the desire to win at all cost?

if you do not race, please pass on these questions, i am going to make a point, and i need people who are competitive in nature to answer these question (you don't have to respond, just keep in mind your answers) i will explain.......

the desire i felt to compete at a national level is a little hard to explain to someone that never competed on that level (it also could be football,baseball,etc), at 30 years of age (in 1994) i mixed a dose of reality with the desire to compete......the out come for me was.......as long as i was competitive (a good finish or just be able to run with the leader) i was pleased with my effort.........well, after 4 years of that mind set.......i was not happy with just being competitive, and i think, no, i know most of your pros and pro-am riders are not really satisfied just being competitive.

now where am i going with this? simple......if your one of the top pros, i am willing to bet that 2nd is not good enough, and if that pro believes that the shocks he is running is why he can't win, then i am willing to bet you he will pay full retail for the shocks that he can win on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i know if i still raced i would buy (at double the cost) the products that i believed made me faster!!!!!!!!

i don't believe that just because 10 pros run one brand of shock they are all being paid millions to ride them, and even if they were, several would rather win than just ride for a check!!!!!!

[TNT]

Well I want to apologize for mis-leading you Norris and Mrs. SFR in the last thread. My post with regard to Pro’s being paid and to look for FOX to lean out cost and quality was without thought and based on a lack of knowledge of their products. As my own submissions have caused me to look deeper into my comments, at the design and manufacture of shocks I regress. There just not enough material there or lean manufacturing to shave alot of cost, hence the reason they are so expensive.

Your right find the shock you love and if it wins you races all the power to ya! Ah the price of victory! :D

[greazee_G]

Originally posted by TNT
4130 steel
Cost: Tubing $4/ft
Weight: .284 lb cu-in
Tensile Yield: 63100 psi
Shear Modulus: 116, 000 ksi
Modulus of Elasticity: 297000 ksi

6061 AL
Cost: Tubing $1.50/ft
Weight: .0975 lb cu-in
Tensile Yield: 40,000 psi
Shear Modulus: 3300 ksi
Modulus of Elasticity: 10,000 ksi

If I were designing the body of a shock I would size it or show it good to the “Tensile Yeild” since under compressive fluid load, 6061 is about 2/3 rds that of 4130. Tensile Yield is where the material starts to give or creep. Not exactly sure what tensile load we see on the outer wall, but will assume is not over 40,000 psi and the Aluminum is fine. Also the aluminum is 1/3 the weight and cost.

You can look at the Modulus of Elasticity which is the force to deform, but I would think AL has plenty of strength. If I were FOX I’d stick with the 4130 around the air chamber since its thermal conductivity is 4 times that of 6061...who knows maybe thats one of the design changes. In any case the cost difference per foot is insignificant.

You HAVE to look at the application size the design to determine material cost..You CANNOT just look at dollar figures! :D

Apparently FOX was on the same page as you when it comes to the shock BODY!

To the best of my knowledge the actual body is STEEL! I can confirm that tomorrow when I service another set. However the TUBE for the Main Air Spring is Aluminum. Most of the parts are the same materials ie: Shafts, lower eyelets, spring retainers. Fox does use a two piece body, with the Cap ( Upper eyelet ) being aluminum but so is Elka, Axis, Works, Motowoz, Race Tech, heck come to think of it so is the new PB-1's!!!

Not really sure why SF is making a comparison there?

[greazee_G]

Originally posted by racernorris

i don't believe that just because 10 pros run one brand of shock they are all being paid millions to ride them, and even if they were, several would rather win than just ride for a check!!!!!!

Maybe it was just the timing but the EVOL's became REAL POPULAR after Natalie put that whooping on them back in 2005. Come to think of it ole Timmy Farr himself ran Evol's at Loretta's in 2005, was it just testing? Looking for that edge?

[Mrs. SFRacing]

Originally posted by protraxrptr17
Yes, I have been working on my own design in my head during some of my daydreams, of a shock that has some sort of rotary design that is essentially a AC generator. It works kind of like the wheel motors on a locomotive. The resistance on the output of the generator/motor could be changed by a computer based on velocity and position. You could tune your shocks with a laptop. It's just a daydream. I have done no r&d whatsoever, so if somebody wants to shoot this idea down, go ahead.

As far as mass producing parts, it can really be effective in lowering cost. When I order material for a job, I have seen the price drop by half when I increased number of pieces. Its the same on the finished product end, especially when dealing with automation. Sometimes it may take me almost all day to setup, program, and refine just one part (I have to hand program, no CAD). The actual cutting time may only be a couple minutes. If I'm making only one of those, the price may be $400. If you want 100 of those parts, it may only be like $1000 and the quality is the same.

Now, when I went to Loretta's in '08 I did see a few Fox rear shocks fail. I also saw alot of bikes running Fox in the pits jacked up with the shocks off. Don't know if that means anything, just an observation. They look like they would be a pain to work on too.

SF, did you race (or still) 25 plus at some nationals? yea i do #51 trx 450r

[TNT]

Originally posted by greazee_G
Apparently FOX was on the same page as you when it comes to the shock BODY!

To the best of my knowledge the actual body is STEEL! I can confirm that tomorrow when I service another set. However the TUBE for the Main Air Spring is Aluminum. Most of the parts are the same materials ie: Shafts, lower eyelets, spring retainers. Fox does use a two piece body, with the Cap ( Upper eyelet ) being aluminum but so is Elka, Axis, Works, Motowoz, Race Tech, heck come to think of it so is the new PB-1's!!!

Not really sure why SF is making a comparison there?

Yeah it’s pretty interesting the body of a shock. That tubular shape the internal walls sees compression and the external wall sees tension (pulling apart). The external wall will propagate surface cracks due the tension as the internal compressive forces want to explode our can sorta speak. The 6061 wall thickness would have to be 2/3 rds or so larger than the steel to get the same tensile yield to prevent cracks. There’s some math I can do to figure the actual wall thickness once we ran some test to determine the internal compression load, that’s called ‘sizing”. Now that I know the tube thickness of the 6061 and 4130 to take the loads I bring in our cost expert Mrs. SF to crunch the $ numbers……lol! J/k. But seriously that’s how we do material trade studies properly, ok? Important stuff if we are mass producing. Cost vs quality is another consideration and in FOX’s design they are using air so thermo may be a big factor in the design, even coil overs. 4130 can transfer 4 times the heat out of the shock to ambient air and keep our internal psi hikes to a minimum. It also prolongs the life of the shock. With that kinda heat transfer we need a seal material that has strong thermo properties and reliable to not disappoint our customers….you get the picture lots goes into it….

In our body case we designed to tensile yield, in the eyelet fitting case if we designed to the shear modulus, well 4130 is 20 times stronger than 6130 in shear so the cost of materials would be drastically different....maybe thats why FOX went to a casting???? A steel or titanium one we hope!

[gimp419]

Norris! Clean out your pms!:D

[Dave400ex]

How did this get from how the shocks work, to materials used to produce them? lol. I don't think the quality of the shocks is the issue, it's how they work/are setup. That goes for most of the shocks out there. Most have always said Elka's are good quality parts, they just don't work well.

[Mrs. SFRacing]

The question was asked why the pep pb1 shocks cost more than the fox?

[spanky101]

Originally posted by Dave400ex
How did this get from how the shocks work, to materials used to produce them? lol. I don't think the quality of the shocks is the issue, it's how they work/are setup. That goes for most of the shocks out there. Most have always said Elka's are good quality parts, they just don't work well.

Thats exactly it with elka's. The parts are great, but their ability to set up a shock is the biggest problem they have. Both fox and PEP have a great reputation and that says something. Both are great products, but in the end it comes down to what you prefer.

[racernorris]

this is for you that don't know me, and for some that think they do, (i know this is off subject but bare with me, i will get to the point).
I AM NOT A SELLSMAN, i can not sell you a sake of sh*t and tell you its roses, if i don't believe it, i can't sell it!!!!!! even if i like a product i don't pull punches, i tell you all the good and the bad.
(now if you think about what i said, its not necessarily good for my business) that's enough about this redneck from Georgia.

in my first post on fox shocks, i stated that fox shock were the most adjustable shock on the market.........let me explain in dollars and cents......let say you buy a used set of spring front shocks (any brand), and there set up for a 30lb heaver rider, you will at least have to change the main springs (average cost $120 a pair) and you may need to re valve the shocks (average cost for service and re valve $200 a pair). always remember when buying used spring shocks to allow for the cost to change springs and valving!!!!!!!!!!!!!

now lets say you buy a used set of evols, your good from 100lb to 300lb, all you change is the main pressure for ride height (first thing) and then add or subtract pressure in the evol to control bottoming. now as i always do....the bad thing about buying a used set of evols......inspect the air sleeves, if there are dents in the sleeve they will need to be replaced!!!! if there in good shape, you just saved $300-400 dollars compaired to spring shocks.

now think about this............will i be willing to pay as much for a used set of spring shocks as i would for a used set of evols (if there both in good condition) now that i know that if i buy the spring shocks they may need new spring and re valved ?????????????


if you buy used shocks on line and your not able to inspect them (it doesn't matter what brand, all parts are high) allow for repair cost in the price you pay!!!!!!!!!

if you are having problems with a fox shock, let me know, i will try and walk you through the set up, and if that doesn't work, i will get you in contact with the engineers at fox that i refer to!!!!!!!!

real quick...first thing (this is # 1 law) set your ride height....you do this buy adding or subtracting pressure through the small gold caped fitting on the bottom!!!!! and wright it down!!!!!!! i like to start with 7in (under the foot peg) and 1/2 in higher (under the front of the frame where the nerf bars mount, oil tanks on yfz and suz) this will get you started....try 1/4 and 3/4in later!!!!

second......check your evol pressure (wright it down) go out and ride, slowly at first, if the shock bottoms add 10psi in the evol (large gold cap) this is your major adjustment for bottom out resistance, keep repeating until it doesn't bottom (100-300psi).
lets say that it doesn't bottom, subtract 10 psi and ride it, keep repeating until it does, now add 10 psi and your in the ball park!!!!!!

if you need help with the hi/lo speed let me know!!!!!!

[KB Motorsports]

Originally posted by racernorris
this is for you that don't know me, and for some that think they do, (i know this is off subject but bare with me, i will get to the point).
I AM NOT A SELLSMAN, i can not sell you a sake of sh*t and tell you its roses, if i don't believe it, i can't sell it!!!!!! even if i like a product i don't pull punches, i tell you all the good and the bad.
(now if you think about what i said, its not necessarily good for my business) that's enough about this redneck from Georgia.

in my first post on fox shocks, i stated that fox shock were the most adjustable shock on the market.........let me explain in dollars and cents......let say you buy a used set of spring front shocks (any brand), and there set up for a 30lb heaver rider, you will at least have to change the main springs (average cost $120 a pair) and you may need to re valve the shocks (average cost for service and re valve $200 a pair). always remember when buying used spring shocks to allow for the cost to change springs and valving!!!!!!!!!!!!!

now lets say you buy a used set of evols, your good from 100lb to 300lb, all you change is the main pressure for ride height (first thing) and then add or subtract pressure in the evol to control bottoming. now as i always do....the bad thing about buying a used set of evols......inspect the air sleeves, if there are dents in the sleeve they will need to be replaced!!!! if there in good shape, you just saved $300-400 dollars compaired to spring shocks.

now think about this............will i be willing to pay as much for a used set of spring shocks as i would for a used set of evols (if there both in good condition) now that i know that if i buy the spring shocks they may need new spring and re valved ?????????????


if you buy used shocks on line and your not able to inspect them (it doesn't matter what brand, all parts are high) allow for repair cost in the price you pay!!!!!!!!!

if you are having problems with a fox shock, let me know, i will try and walk you through the set up, and if that doesn't work, i will get you in contact with the engineers at fox that i refer to!!!!!!!!

real quick...first thing (this is # 1 law) set your ride height....you do this buy adding or subtracting pressure through the small gold caped fitting on the bottom!!!!! and wright it down!!!!!!! i like to start with 7in (under the foot peg) and 1/2 in higher (under the front of the frame where the nerf bars mount, oil tanks on yfz and suz) this will get you started....try 1/4 and 3/4in later!!!!

second......check your evol pressure (wright it down) go out and ride, slowly at first, if the shock bottoms add 10psi in the evol (large gold cap) this is your major adjustment for bottom out resistance, keep repeating until it doesn't bottom (100-300psi).
lets say that it doesn't bottom, subtract 10 psi and ride it, keep repeating until it does, now add 10 psi and your in the ball park!!!!!!

if you need help with the hi/lo speed let me know!!!!!!

I don't think anyone called you a salesman in the thread. Fox shocks are universally valved for anyone 250lbs and under. Anyone over 250lbs gets special treatment.

If you buy used shocks on the internet your already in trouble unless you trust the person you bought them from. I see a lot of potentially good setups go sour because the compressed length and shock angle was wrong. Just remember it's not just about eye to eye length.

Racenorris you kept comparing the evols to conventional spring shocks. I couldn't help but think you should look up Motowoz shocks. They have a wide range of adjustability due to the triple rate adjustable cross overs.

( I love the new white/black Fox Shocks! Thanks for posting up the picture)

[racernorris]

i am sorry i left out motowoz, but i have never serviced a set of motowoz shocks......as a matter of fact i have only seen a few sets on mini quads at nationals......i hear they are good shocks.....but i have NOT tested any!!!!!!

elka, works, axis, exit, and peps all use triple rate (and some quad rate) with adjustable cross overs (you have to take the springs off and replace cross over rings to do so)(some are a little different but you still have to take the springs off).

as for a lot of adjustment.......i was talking about rider weight range.........now i could be wrong, but adjusting cross over on your tender springs will only get you so far...not 150 lbs of rider weight........i will do my home work on this......BUT???

as for buying used shocks.......i don't like the results (what it costs my customers) more often than not i end up replacing bodies, valving, eyelets, springs and lines. it would be smarter just to buy new shocks, unless there on some ones quad you know and they fit your application. people will always buy used parts, we, at some point in time, all believe were saving money by doing so....i guess i shouldn't say any thing about this.....it's a big part of my business!!!

[TNT]

So what exactly changed with the design besides the cool looking black which actually attracts heat?

[Dave400ex]

Fronts:
The new generation FLOAT X EVOL has been refined with new Teflon lined bearings and low-friction seals for improved suspension response. A new single piece forged air sleeve cap and improved air valve protection further enhance its reliability and durability .

Rear:
A new 47 mm aluminum body reduces overall weight and improves heat transfer. Teflon coated bearings and a massive 5/8" DLC coated shaft reduce friction and enhance suspension response and durability. New piggyback body caps are available for KTM, Polaris and Suzuki models.

[TNT]

So what was the old rear body material?

That teflon IS good for friction but what bearing are they referring to that and how are the seals reducing friction? Does the seal rub a part in thier design? Is it a friction wear surface? I guess I don't understand thier design nor do I own a pair.

So the cap is forged thats better I thought someone said it was cast on the last thread. Forging are better due to cold working, not as good as a machining tho.

5/8 DLC - Take it thats the shaft to the pistion, usually stainless right? Coated w/what? Lets see some anti-friction coating on stainless I got no idea.....hmmmm! :confused:

Interesting how it sounds like they are really trying to get the heat out with less friction on mating parts but I don't get the black aluminum. Like I said 4130 is 4 times better than 6130 or maybe they used 2024 but still. Makes me wonder what the front body is made of?

As you see person that asked how this thread went to materials vs how a shock works, well the materials have everything to do with how the shock works. :D

So one got a pair take a magnet to the materials the steel is magnetic.

[Dave400ex]

Originally posted by TNT
5/8 DLC - Take it thats the shaft to the pistion, usually stainless right? Coated w/what? Lets see some anti-friction coating.....hmmmm! :confused:

As you see person that asked how this thread went to materials vs how a shock works, well the materials have everything to do with how the shock works. :D

5/8" is the shaft size. DLC is Diamond Like Coating.
http://www.diamonex.com/products_dlc.htm

I know the materials play a part in how the shocks work, however the materials don't mean anything if the setup and valving is junk!

[TNT]

Wow! I have not seen that DLC or been exposed to it...Cool! Look at the thickness a mil. .001 - 10µm ..bet it's expensive maybe? learn something new everyday! Thanks! :D

[TNT]

Originally posted by Dave400ex
5/8" is the shaft size. DLC is Diamond Like Coating.
http://www.diamonex.com/products_dlc.htm

I know the materials play a part in how the shocks work, however the materials don't mean anything if the setup and valving is junk!

I think the materials have alot to do with the valving and set-up....More restrictive materials will cause different valving, different metals used can play a part in the valving. Different fluids can. They go hand and hand there is no seperation in my mind anyway.

[Dave400ex]

Originally posted by TNT
Wow! I have not seen that DLC or been exposed to it...Cool! Look at the thickness a mil. .001 - 10µm ..bet it's expensive maybe? learn something new everyday! Thanks! :D

Your right I don't think it is cheap. However I'm sure it comes back to the whole high production numbers and them having large quanities of shafts coated at a time. I was surprised to hear though with the updates they did make that the prices will remain the same! :D

[Dave400ex]

Originally posted by TNT
I think the materials have alot to do with the valving and set-up....More restrictive materials will cause different valving, different metals used can play a part in the valving. Different fluids can. They go hand and hand there is no seperation in my mind anyway.

I understand and see where your coming from. I said that because it has always been stated that Elka's are made with good materials and quality but their valving and setup lacks. But for sure they play. Different oils do for sure, I've felt that difference in my shocks.

[protraxrptr17]

Originally posted by TNT
So what was the old rear body material?

That teflon IS good for friction but what bearing are they referring to that and how are the seals reducing friction? Does the seal rub a part in thier design? Is it a friction wear surface? I guess I don't understand thier design nor do I own a pair.

So the cap is forged thats better I thought someone said it was cast on the last thread. Forging are better due to cold working, not as good as a machining tho.

5/8 DLC - Take it thats the shaft to the pistion, usually stainless right? Coated w/what? Lets see some anti-friction coating on stainless I got no idea.....hmmmm! :confused:

Interesting how it sounds like they are really trying to get the heat out with less friction on mating parts but I don't get the black aluminum. Like I said 4130 is 4 times better than 6130 or maybe they used 2024 but still. Makes me wonder what the front body is made of?

As you see person that asked how this thread went to materials vs how a shock works, well the materials have everything to do with how the shock works. :D

So one got a pair take a magnet to the materials the steel is magnetic.

I think that most shock shafts are just your standard 1045 chrome plated rod. That's what my Elkas were anyway, and that is what I used when I made new shafts. The plating and seals on any sliding surfaces could really play a big part in the performance. It could build less heat, and respond faster if it had less resistance.

[grantmi]

F.Y.I. You might want to double check your thermal conductivity assumptions....you have them flipped for AL and 4130...

http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/aluminum/show_aluminum.cfm?ID=AA_6061&show_prop=all&Page_Title=AA%206061

http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/alloy_steels/show_alloy.cfm?ID=AISI_4130&show_prop=all&Page_Title=AISI%204130

Emissivity is another story....and for a shock may actually be more relevent for heat transfer (would need to run the calcs)


Originally posted by TNT
4130 steel
Cost: Tubing $4/ft
Weight: .284 lb cu-in
Tensile Yield: 63100 psi
Shear Modulus: 116, 000 ksi
Modulus of Elasticity: 297000 ksi

6061 AL
Cost: Tubing $1.50/ft
Weight: .0975 lb cu-in
Tensile Yield: 40,000 psi
Shear Modulus: 3300 ksi
Modulus of Elasticity: 10,000 ksi

If I were designing the body of a shock I would size it or show it good to the “Tensile Yeild” since under compressive fluid load, 6061 is about 2/3 rds that of 4130. Tensile Yield is where the material starts to give or creep. Not exactly sure what tensile load we see on the outer wall, but will assume is not over 40,000 psi and the Aluminum is fine. Also the aluminum is 1/3 the weight and cost.

You can look at the Modulus of Elasticity which is the force to deform, but I would think AL has plenty of strength. If I were FOX I’d stick with the 4130 around the air chamber since its thermal conductivity is 4 times that of 6061...who knows maybe thats one of the design changes. In any case the cost difference per foot is insignificant.

You HAVE to look at the application size the design to determine material cost..You CANNOT just look at dollar figures! :D

[godzilla]

Originally posted by racernorris

now where am i going with this? simple......if your one of the top pros, i am willing to bet that 2nd is not good enough, and if that pro believes that the shocks he is running is why he can't win, then i am willing to bet you he will pay full retail for the shocks that he can win on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i know if i still raced i would buy (at double the cost) the products that i believed made me faster!!!!!!!!



That is balony, and I know this from first hand experience. The pro's dont want to pay for anything, no matter what or how good the product is, because they expect the manufacturers to give them what they want.

The fact is, in todays economy, many manufacturers are cutting back on their sponsorship offers and the "pro's" are definately not going to remain loyal to those companies unless there are freebies included with the deal.

[TNT]

Originally posted by grantmi
F.Y.I. You might want to double check your thermal conductivity assumptions....you have them flipped for AL and 4130...

http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/aluminum/show_aluminum.cfm?ID=AA_6061&show_prop=all&Page_Title=AA%206061

http://www.efunda.com/materials/alloys/alloy_steels/show_alloy.cfm?ID=AISI_4130&show_prop=all&Page_Title=AISI%204130

Emissivity is another story....and for a shock may actually be more relevent for heat transfer (would need to run the calcs)

Well I sure did get those turned around didn’t I thanks for pointing that out glad someone’s watching…lol! Got too much stuff and specs on my desk late at night opps! As far as Emissivity I think your barking up the wrong tree and from what I gather has more do with the ozone layer, and green house effects, but hey if you can get through the formula’s below and apply them to a black shock all I got to say is, if you don’t work for FOX or NASA your in the wrong line of work lol!

Check out some of this advanced calculus: …..

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/BLACKonBlack.jpg

And theres 10 more pages of it....lol! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emissivity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck%27s_law_of_black_body_radiation

Just paint the Da## shock black I give!!! But we all know black gets hotter! :D

[grantmi]

Actually the radient transfer is the easy part......convection cooling gets to be a bit more difficult. You get all this Reynolds and Nusselt number crap.

But anyway.......before I get to far off topic.

[TNT]

I'm doing some digging, I think it's all about convection, conduction and radiation.....Stuck right now since less dense solids conduct less heat, 6130 < 4130. Been a while for me I'm a structures guy be back atcha soon! :D

Is this thread not about the new FOX design, those not interested don't read were allright Grantmi.

Reynolds I remember but forgot Nussult totally forgot.

I want to see if we can figure out if a pro takes off on a rough track on a 98 deg day with fluid and air chambers at ambient what temps and pressure increase would there be in 20 min and if Norris 1-2 psi is correct, I say no way much more.

delta PV=nrT and delta Q are the formula's I beleive!

[TNT]

Originally posted by protraxrptr17
I think that most shock shafts are just your standard 1045 chrome plated rod. That's what my Elkas were anyway, and that is what I used when I made new shafts. The plating and seals on any sliding surfaces could really play a big part in the performance. It could build less heat, and respond faster if it had less resistance.

Just did a quick goggle on Elka 1045 chrom plate .05 friction coefficent vs. DLC FOX .1, seems as tho Elka design is better or as good.

Who needs diamonds when good ol fashion chrome will do the trick! :D

PS: My V5 model locked up and won't make solid bodies of your front end I did somethng wrong, I'll try again this week. :D

[racernorris]

why don't you just go to a track, find some one with evols and test the pressure's before they ride 20mins and see how much it changes......that was what i did....several times actually....i think were a little obsessed here!!!!!!

why we ride?
i completely understand that the manufacturers are cutting back on sponsorship, but they have been cutting back for the last two years, of course next year will be even worse!!!!!!

just ask all the pros who are riding fox shocks, if there getting paid big bucks.........that should end this discussion.....i wouldn't even try to respond for them.......but i already said what i would do!!!!!!! and if you think that people would not pay more for what they think is the best........then why is peps, axis, and elka still selling shocks, there top of the line shocks are more expensive than fox, a good bit more!!!!!!

so i would say I'm not the only rider that would pay more for what i think would help me win races!!!!!!

axis update:
axis is in the middle of re engineering there air shocks to get the price down, they plan on staying with the same basic concept......i will let you know more as soon as i get my hands on them!!!

[TNT]

Originally posted by racernorris
why don't you just go to a track, find some one with evols and test the pressure's before they ride 20mins and see how much it changes......that was what i did....several times actually....i think were a little obsessed here!!!!!!

axis update:
axis is in the middle of re engineering there air shocks to get the price down, they plan on staying with the same basic concept......i will let you know more as soon as i get my hands on them!!!



You get sparked up pretty easy....lol! I wasn't calling you out just wanting to see if I can get the 1-2 mathmatically. Call it obsessed but just think if it were not for those "obsessed" engineers that look at every little detail we would not be having this discussion there would be no shocks.

There are ALOT of pro's racing FOX, what would 90 % be close. So technically the FOX shock should be 90% better than any other, sounds resonable!....Sorry but my obsessed butt has been looking deep and I can not find much difference between fox and the rest.....maybe you can explain but lets see some facts to proove your argument? Not buying used this new FOX design compared to other 2010 designs? An the irony is just because pro's run does not mean it's the best!

Axis - It's called design to cost, good for them!

:D

[gorideorgohome]

Just got back from Dune Tour @ Glamis, Fox was there doing demos. If you have stock or +2 arms that use stock shocks you can demo Evols and Floats on your own quad.
I already have Evols but there seemed to be a few quads going in and out of their booth with happy people.
The next Dune Tour is Dumont Jan. 15, if Fox is there and your quad uses a stock length shock you can see why all the pros run the air shock and I'll never go back to a spring.
A cake may use the same igrediants but I assure you my wife bakes a better cake than me. LOL

[racernorris]

i can not give out prices on here because i am not a site sponsor, so you will have to do your home work on this one yourself. but just remember.......compare apples to apples......top of the line .....and please call direct to the manufacture, so that you get the correct retail prices......fox 1-800-foxshox.....axis 610-375-6180....sorry i don't have elka and peps numbers here at home with me....


i just repeated what i was told to me by axis re-this/re-that, axis understands that they have to get there price more in line with other brands other wise they wouldn't worry about changing there design.

i am sorry that i seamed sparked to you, but i am a matter of fact kind of person, but i do have a good sense of humor, now how can i help you!!!!!!!!

[TNT]

Originally posted by racernorris
i am sorry that i seamed sparked to you, but i am a matter of fact kind of person, but i do have a good sense of humor, now how can i help you!!!!!!!!

I don't think you can, just don't call me obsessed women call me that and I can't find one that can bake a cake worth a sh**! :macho

[racernorris]

now that's a great idea, sounds like a lot of people now have a chance to see for there self, what all the fuss is about.

they even set them up for you.....show you how....and its free!!!

i just wish they did this at a national mx and xc event,its possible.

[TNT]

Well it's been interesting all but I'm done too many FOX sales people on this thread and I don't mix well with sales people. Be carefull or Pappy will shut it down again> have fun! :D

[racernorris]

I'm sorry but I'm not an engineer, i can't give you mathematical equations on how shocks work, i am a x-racer, i go by the set of my pants, i touch, feel it, adjust on it, and then ride it....and that's how i can explain it to other riders.

most guy i know when they buy a new set of shocks scan through the owners manual, scratch there head, through it down and just ride, that's why so many riders are asking questions about pressure settings, and setup. i speak redneck shock lingo, so far, most people understand what i am trying to tell them.

if you read the manual from fox, well lets just say it's a little technical for some of us, so i just try and translate, in a way that most racers understand.....example: fox calls the flat head screw adjustment the low speed compression adjuster....i call it traction control....if you need more traction, turn the low speed ccw (this softens the low speed valving and allows more weight transfer to the outside front wheel!!!!!!!

[protraxrptr17]

How is the ride height set on the Evols? I've never seen a real explanation on how that works. Is there a way to make the shock have a soft initial 2-3" and then get stiffer like traditional spring shocks, or is it just linear all the way through? I've always been skeptical of these, but maybe if I had a good walk through of what takes place maybe some of us will have an "Oh yeah, I see" moment. I'm with TNT on the whole "air gets hot and expands" idea, but if you have tested it and found little change I have to take your word. I'm sure FOX thought of that too in the R&D phase. For some of us, we could run nitrogen just as easy, but the average guy has to use air. I agree that the pros will run whatever they are paid to run, win or lose (ie; Polaris), but I have seen how good the FOX equipped bikes handle, so there has to be some advantages. How many championships have been won on Fox?

[duke416ex]

Ride height is adjusted by air pressure in the chambers, think of air ride suspension on a truck(kinda a similar idea). Adding pressure is liek putting on a stiffer spring. They have a smaller air chamber which can be adjusted to act like your tender springs and crossovers. I think some of the early ones only had one air chamber though. I am only somewhat familiar with these though so I am sure someone else will add a lot more. Thing to remember that most people think of air shocks is they still have internal valving and fluid like a regular shock, the air chambers just take place of the springs. From what I gather from people running them in xc, the air shocks are ok from the factory, but work really really well after someone else revalves them!

[racernorris]

if you look at the pictures of a evol shock.....the top part of the shock is oil, valving, and nitrogen reservoir.......the enclosed section (air sleeve) that goes from the middle of the shock to the bottom is your main air chamber (think of a old school air shocks we ran on our cars and truck, just a lot better designed, you add air/nitrogen in the main chamber and you raise the ride height), the more you weight the more pressure you put in the main chamber.

now that you have your ride height set, test ride time, if the shocks bottom.....add pressure in the evol chamber (small reservoir on the bottom of the shock) the evol chamber acts like you main spring, at the last few inches of the travel (just before bottoming) the pressure that is in the evol chamber stops you from bottoming. (sorry, I'm not getting anymore technical than this...whats the point..it works)

if your shocks never bottom, let 5-10 psi out of your evol and test ride, continue to do this until it does, then add 10 psi......your very close to the optimum pressure for that track (that's right, you guessed it, you can dial it in to ever track just like the pros always have, except they had a shock builder to change springs on there spring shock for them) now you have the ability to set you shocks up for different tracks (small jumps and smooth tracks, to big jumps and rough tracks) don't tell me you think you should run the same setup at every track!!!

did i mention hi/lo speed adjusters.....high speed (18mm nut) is your minor adjustment for big jumps and big holes in the track (remember the major adjustment for big jumps and holes is your evol pressure)..........low speed (flat head screw in the middle of the 18mm nut) this is your traction control, if your front end is pushing.... turn the low speed ccw (this will allow the front to roll and transfer weight to the outside front wheel for more bite) if your having problem with to much traction (body roll, diving in the front) turn the low speed cw to stop body roll .

if you need to compare evols to spring shocks to understand how they work: the main chamber pressure (low pressure) is equal to a low poundage tender spring (but adjustable) and your evol chamber pressure (high pressure) is equal to a main spring (except adjustable)........

I'm not sure how fox could have designed the evol to be any simpler!!

[protraxrptr17]

Thank you. Exactly what I wanted. Now, as far as valving, the rest of the internals are the same as a conventional shock, as far as a piston, shim stacks and so on?? I have always wanted a set just for the flexibility in "spring rates". Springs are too damn expensive to be experimenting with. Can these be built with a 20 1/4" with 7 1/2" stroke? I custom built my front end and this is what I ended up with.

[racernorris]

yes the internals are the same as most spring shocks, the hi/lo speed adjusters are part of the oil side.

as for 20 1/4, and 7 1/2 shaft travel is not a problem, but you have to understand, they build these shocks in high production numbers, so they would rather build for something that is mass production........you will have to send your a-arms to them so they can jig them and check the motion ratio and leverage ratio to determine the proper valving.........i know that sucks......but that's the price we pay for our custom built quads........i know first hand .....i own one!!!!!!! they may already have something very close. 1800-foxshox

[john willhoite]

when can you buy them?

[TNT]

Originally posted by racernorris
yes the internals are the same as most spring shocks, the hi/lo speed adjusters are part of the oil side.

as for 20 1/4, and 7 1/2 shaft travel is not a problem, but you have to understand, they build these shocks in high production numbers, so they would rather build for something that is mass production........you will have to send your a-arms to them so they can jig them and check the motion ratio and leverage ratio to determine the proper valving.........i know that sucks......but that's the price we pay for our custom built quads........i know first hand .....i own one!!!!!!! they may already have something very close. 1800-foxshox

Well I took the liberty of modeling Protrax new left fox shock mounted vertically and added 1-2 psi you said to and I got a big softball on top! :confused: :D


http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/PROTRAX.jpg

Got a little too jiggy wit it I guess. Working on revolving that tire cross secting dude but it got a bubble too and won't go.

I shortened em up quite a bit no worries, sway coming to keep the body roll down from all that HOT air.....

Thought you get a kick out of that Norris! :D

[protraxrptr17]

Whats the softball for? Is it some kind of prototype "evol" chamber :D JK!

Would they send 'em to me blank, with no valving? Oughta be cheaper that way. For all I care they could put all the pieces in a box and send it to me, I'll end up taking 'em all apart and changing stuff and seeing how it all works anyhow.:devil:

[TNT]

Actually a custom FOX design might work pretty good better than coil overs with a sway if the design were optimized. I don't think you'd get as much body roll with a sway and would not need such a huge stroke what do you think Protrax? Travel will be less but how much?

I was looking for a way to seperate out the springs to the location shown but with FOX no need!

Would the vertical work if mounted to a sway or do we need to be at an angle to the frame?

[hontrx265r]

norris I know I've talked to you about this before.. But when I contacted fox about a custom shock for my protrax on my hybrid they were not even close to helpful. Because of their mass production they wanted nothing to do with it. Yes I know you said you'd help me but as a big name company they were disappointing. It wasn't just about the fronts but about a custom rear application as well. Of course, custom axis and pep were both more then happy to help and would work with me till it was right. That means alot when your spending the dollars. Just thought I'd throw that out there. Id rather support a company who helps everyone.. not just pros. Lets face it 99% of us aren't pro!

[rkw327]

Does anyone know if you can shorten fox shocks for different arm's?

[protraxrptr17]

The 2:1 ratio is what I have worked so hard to achieve. No way I would ever consider giving that up. I've been down that road before. The closer you can get to 1:1, the better off you are. The shaft velocity doesn't vary as much with less stroke, if you understand what I am saying. I still don't fully understand your sway bar, I gotta see that model before I can figure out what you are trying to do.

If 265r couldn't get custom shocks, then they sure ain't gonna help me.

[TNT]

At the beginning of the season we had a new 09 DS450 MX, after reading the stickey thread above us all the way through I leaned alot about the key features to proper shock and suspension set-up for one. I called fox they had no shock for the DS but was willing to find one off the shelve to sell me. :huh Needless to say at that point I was not impressed!

Heard about PEPs from others called them they have a form you fill out that ask all the right questions.

Problem with mass producing a product like this is customization, however if the designers are REAL smart, and this will be tricky, they can design for it by putting in provisions. One thing nice about the air chamber is it does exactly what I just said VERY well!! Beyond that automation.

Protrac Ill get the model further along then we'll go back to our thread. Finally got your bubblie low profile tires done last night but don't know how to get nobbies on em yet they look cool still, now the "pimp my ride" chrome rims I got in mind for you or do I leave that chrome for the shock shaft?...., maybe you prefer FOX diamond plating? lol. J/k :confused: :blah:

[TNT]

BTW see that CATIA V5 Model above well most of the Quad OEM's use it to design quads - Just FYI. From there it goes to several other models. For structures it goes to a "NASTRAN" model that "sizes" structures. For fluid dynamics it goes to a CFD or "Computational Fluid Dynamics" model, super high tech stuff! I can fully "mock up" a shock and test it as good as any dyno you shock builders use, but digitally on a computer. Actually if my model is correct and I got the right data, better than dyno. You shock builders may challange that but guess where I get the input to my model, from years of testing and dyno results called "emperical data" models. We capture "real time" info and can use in many ways the dyno you know can not.

So I can only imagine big companies like Fox that afford models and Engineers like me will have an advantage over the ma and pa hand custom designers and builders of the past. Pretty crazy what computers and money can do these days! :cool:

As soon as I get this model further I'll post it on the "sway bar thread", and you will see a small part first hand what quad Engineers go through to deliver your quad to the show room floor. Then well talk more about NASTRAN and CFD for those interested. We may even do some of it on Protraxs quad for fun if I can find time. Hope it goes somewhere into our industry and I don't care who does it or patents, I'm just glad to help in these trying times. Kinda like what Norris was saying about pro's that just want whats best to win, the heart of the matter!

Protrax thinks outside the box and knows what he wants thats what I like about him. :D

Anyone have any question how all this works don't be afraid to ask thats why I'm here on atvriders.com......A great informative professional site :D

TNT
2009 Can-am Ds 450 MX 2010 A-Class Nationals #101
Trever(racer) N Terry(dad, me :D )
Can-am rocks our world thank you for hoping on board n 2008 and your am racer and race support programs :D

[LTRracer4]

I just sit in class and read along. You are a knowledgable dude Terry.

[protraxrptr17]

I saw another thread where you were asking about some arenacrosses. If you come to the one in Memphis we need to meet up. I got some ideas and a machine shop, you have the engineering brainpower and software, what say we make our mark on this sport. Looks like you have a rider, and I got one too.

[400exBro]

Originally posted by TNT
BTW see that CATIA V5 Model above well most of the Quad OEM's use it to design quads - Just FYI. From there it goes to several other models. For structures it goes to a "NASTRAN" model that "sizes" structures. For fluid dynamics it goes to a CFD or "Computational Fluid Dynamics" model, super high tech stuff! I can fully "mock up" a shock and test it as good as any dyno you shock builders use, but digitally on a computer. Actually if my model is correct and I got the right data, better than dyno. You shock builders may challange that but guess where I get the input to my model, from years of testing and dyno results called "emperical data" models. We capture "real time" info and can use in many ways the dyno you know can not.

So I can only imagine big companies like Fox that afford models and Engineers like me will have an advantage over the ma and pa hand custom designers and builders of the past. Pretty crazy what computers and money can do these days! :cool:

As soon as I get this model further I'll post it on the "sway bar thread", and you will see a small part first hand what quad Engineers go through to deliver your quad to the show room floor. Then well talk more about NASTRAN and CFD for those interested. We may even do some of it on Protraxs quad for fun if I can find time. Hope it goes somewhere into our industry and I don't care who does it or patents, I'm just glad to help in these trying times. Kinda like what Norris was saying about pro's that just want whats best to win, the heart of the matter!

Protrax thinks outside the box and knows what he wants thats what I like about him. :D

Anyone have any question how all this works don't be afraid to ask thats why I'm here on atvriders.com......A great informative professional site :D

TNT
2009 Can-am Ds 450 MX 2010 A-Class Nationals #101
Trever(racer) N Terry(dad, me :D )
Can-am rocks our world thank you for hoping on board n 2008 and your am racer and race support programs :D

I assume you studied mechanical engineering ?
I have read a lot of your post with great care, as I its great to see this info. And your right, the amount of work and computational power that is put into a product is quite extensive. Something a regular person takes for granted. I am currently doing some electromechanical design for a pretty known company, and the amount of simulations i run before we create prototypes is pretty crazy.

Also I am on a student team at University we build and compete against other university with a miniature Formula 1 car. And the experience you learn from designing and building a miniature F1 car is ridiculous. Everything from flex in the frame, to CFD analysis on the intake system etc... Oh the endless sleepless nights and rebuilding blown engines in hotel bath tubs will always be a great memory.

[TNT]

Thanks for the kudo’s guy’s..I’m a 25 year experienced degreed Aerospace Engineer that seen his day from the design of the B-2 Bomber, F-15, F-16, F-18, Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), KC-135, most of the Boeing Commercial fleet, currently the new 787 Dreamliner in Charleston, SC. Getting old, tired, weary, limp kneed, authritus not to mention altheimers lol......As you college people can see I forgot most of the book stuff rely mainly on practical knowledge and experience. Spend most of my time in the Can-am section trying to help develop that new quad.

Pay attention to all that stuff in school, I thought it was rediculous back then too, but today if it were not for it I would not know where to turn, or even begin to look. You’ll see me look things up combined with practical knowledge....there is so much to know you’ll forget over time, but the key is your education is giving you the tools for the future in many ways you don’t even understand yet. You all will be the next generation technical gents and ladies, the cornerstone that will take this and other American industies to the next world class level.

With that said, I have watched protoypeing and testing come a long ways in the past ten years. That emperical data and digitizing for use in computer models such as NASTRAN and CFD, eliminate what was once done by hand making the design, build, and testing process more robust, safer, and less costly to the end user. It won’t be long before we see more of it at the quad OEM, digital track testing by developing satillite track data and kinematic models for pro race teams and production. Rather than highering pro’s to test quads, shocks, etc, on tracks computers will and accuratly. Professional teams will incorporate Engineers that have thier quads modeled, the tracks they run, have the capacity to tune thier quads digitally based on thier riding styles before they ever get to the race, down to the tire spring rates, air pressure, and wind resistance. How does that sound?

400EXBro will be the first to develop “Quad-By-Wire” removing all wiring replacing it with sensors that electromechanically transmit real time data signals to computer models for processing, engine parameters, shock compression rates, handle bar forces, etc. Now theres a project for ya!.....Tell me where in the AMA rule book that is prohibited? Lol!

Anyway it’s coming as sure as the next generation unmanned fighter and bomber aircraft. :D

[troybilt]

Excellent thread, thanks for the read. :macho

[motardracer]

Electronic shocks for ATVs might be closer than you think......
Penske/Custom Axis already have them at the high end.... Someday it will trickle down!

Imagine these bad boys with a laser height sensor or a G-sensor that knows when you are about to crash back to earth!!!!! Sweet!

http://www.penskeshocks.com/PRESS_2009-10-01.php http://www.penskeshocks.com/files/3000_Series_091002_x700px.jpg

[TNT]

That hit on exactly what I was referring to. Simply put, the team uploaded energy MAPs from the driver’s steering wheel to the shocks which enabled Engineers to look at trends (empirical data) which reduced the need for additional costly testing. Sounds like they saved 17 test just doing 8 of 25 they normally would have done, they were able to isolate (remove) tire wear (since it varies results) for more accurate shock tuning and less tire wear(tire wear data was therefore captured and stored separate from the shocks), I gathered that was done by looking at trends in the test data and storing it which was used to determine the bypass valve switching.

Now the bypass valve can be controlled from the pit by quickly changing a selector switch to reduce tire heat cycles by tuning the shocks to it and the suspension. We’ve seen some of this on EFI in our industry w/on the fly remote fuel management.

Next it will progress to remote control by sensors all over the car as done on “fly by wire” aircraft or unmanned aircraft. Yes by g-sensors (gravity or centrifugal force) or laser for height and other geometry.

One day soon our pros will have their shocks tuned to the track before they ever arrive, later fine tuned remotely from the pits by PC in real time or by ECU along with engine, suspension-alignment, etc, parameters and control.

Be interesting to see how they dealt with thier spring rates or if they are heading towards air chambers like FOX.

Good find! Thanks!