416 stroker vs 426 stroker

[buster024]

Looking for advice on which engine mod to go after. I've been planning a 416 stroker for quite some time, and I'm assuming the only reason not to go to a 426 is the thin sleeve causing heat issues. Anyone have a 426 stroker that could shed some light?

If I wanted to do this build in stages, where would the best place to start be? Cams first then crank and piston when the $$ comes?

[dr qwerty]

Just go with a 426cc add a spal fan and call it a day or add another cooler, i did the spal mod for about 45.00 and 1.5 hours of work,

[Wheelie]

Personally I would go with the 440 stroker (416 bore) over the 450 stroker (426 bore). The 440 still leave one overbore on the table, if the 450 goes, time for a sleeve.

IMO--Save and build the motor in one shot, this way it's torn down and assembled once. It's pointless to teardown an engine multiple times to install new parts. Just my .02.

[buster024]

Your absolutely right about doing it all at once, but for one thing, I'm one of those weird ones that really enjoys taking his bike apart. My 400 gets broken down to frame and motor up to 6x a year. It's good practice, and I always learn something.

Soooo.....if I was to do it in stages, where would you all start? Let's say I can drop $250 at a time. Where to begin?

(and I don't think I really need much convincing to do the 416, I really do agree its the way to go).

[Wheelie]

$250 won't do much. My stroker setup, including crank work, bearings, HD rod, piston, rings and gaskets was bout $800 IIRC. If you're serious about building a stroker, start with $1k atleast.

[buster024]

$250 won't do much. My stroker setup, including crank work, bearings, HD rod, piston, rings and gaskets was bout $800 IIRC. If you're serious about building a stroker, start with $1k atleast.

I realize that $250 is not going to go that far.......but.....are you saying there is no possible way to do this in stages, and still have a working bike throughout the build?
Even if it doesn't make sense to do it that way because it would entail takin' the thing apart 6x, that's my decision to make. I just need advice on where to start.

[Wheelie]

If you're serious about building a stroker and want to do it right, then you're going to need about a grand to start. It can be done in stages after the bottom end is built.

[rob_990]

you can start out with the crank and piston first but itll probly end up blowing up without studs

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by rob_990
you can start out with the crank and piston first but itll probly end up blowing up without studs

Worst case without studs, it will blow a head gasket. I'm still running the stock head studs--no issues to date.

[buster024]

So, stroker, piston, and headstuds.....cool.

Another dumb question, can you put a 2mm crank on a stock piston? Or does it have to be a high comp piston?

Can I replace the piston first, then add the crank down the road?

If replacing only the piston, do I hit the headstuds then, or do I wait until I add the 2mm?

Do I buy a sleeve to fit the new piston, or do I just have my stock bore machined out?

I've never done engine work, and this will be my first time messing with it, so I appreciate all the help. Obviously I could search for a while, and probably find most of these answers, but it wouldn't be in order of how my brain is working.

[250x_kyle]

Originally posted by buster024
So, stroker, piston, and headstuds.....cool.

Another dumb question, can you put a 2mm crank on a stock piston? Or does it have to be a high comp piston?

Can I replace the piston first, then add the crank down the road?

If replacing only the piston, do I hit the headstuds then, or do I wait until I add the 2mm?

Do I buy a sleeve to fit the new piston, or do I just have my stock bore machined out?

I've never done engine work, and this will be my first time messing with it, so I appreciate all the help. Obviously I could search for a while, and probably find most of these answers, but it wouldn't be in order of how my brain is working.

you gotta use a stroker piston.

[rob_990]

unless he sends his crank to powroll

[250x_kyle]

true but that option wasnt mentioned ;).

[buster024]

Awesome. So if I purchase the stroker piston, crank, and headstuds, I can stop there, and put the engine back together, and rock out from there?

....and the sleeve question?

[rob_990]

you wont need to get it resleaved if your doing the 416

[Miami_Vice454]

who sells a +2mm crank?

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by Miami_Vice454
who sells a +2mm crank?

No one. The smallest stroker available for the EX is a +4mm.

[buster024]

Originally posted by Wheelie
No one. The smallest stroker available for the EX is a +4mm.

Whoops....that what I meant! :D

[MtnEX]

Wow... I feel stupid now too... lol...

You know guys, I never realized until this thread that the 416, 426, 440 "strokers" were not what I thought.

Like I was thinking a 440 stroker was a stroked 440cc.


I mean yeah, I know stroking adds cc's.
I just didn't know you guys were counting them.

So....

stroked 400 = 425 stroker
stroked 416 = 440 stroker
stroked 426 = 450 stroker
stroked 440 = 460 stroker

Right?

[MtnEX]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Now the next thing is that I find it curious to think about a stroked EX. I mean by 1999 standards, the bore and stroke was standard. But by 2009 / 450R standards, the EX is already a stroker.

400 EX = 85mm x 70mm stroke

Everything today from the Z400 to the 450's are around 62mm strokes (except KTM XC's).

So when stroking the EX, you're going to 74mm?

That puts a 460 at very close to a KTM 450XC dimension... well +2mm stroked. Seems like a lot to put on an air cooled 400 jug.

Well, anyways... it seems to me that the 400 already has a lot of grunt... so is stroking it really the way to go?

Maybe this is why I liked the KTM?

At the same time though, I can't help but think some of the EX grunt is in the trans gears... maybe lower on the lower end...


I'm just starting to get confused though. I can see where stroking would produce stronger power and more torque... but it would at least seem to me that it would be made slower?

416 stroked 440 v/s just a plain 440.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by MtnEX


stroked 400 = 425 stroker
stroked 416 = 440 stroker
stroked 426 = 450 stroker
stroked 440 = 460 stroker

Right? Close, +4 stroke on stoke bore would be a 420.

[Rootar]

Originally posted by MtnEX

I'm just starting to get confused though. I can see where stroking would produce stronger power and more torque... but it would at least seem to me that it would be made slower?

416 stroked 440 v/s just a plain 440.

Ive ridden a GT 450 stroker and it had gobs of power, but ive also ridden a built 440 that i would say had a little more top and didnt give anything up to it in the bottom....

[BakerRacing40]

If you want to go in stages on building your engine and not really good at saving up money... i would buy it one piece at a time, store them in their packaging in the house and a couple months goes by and then its like christmas ..

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by MtnEX
++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Now the next thing is that I find it curious to think about a stroked EX. I mean by 1999 standards, the bore and stroke was standard. But by 2009 / 450R standards, the EX is already a stroker.

400 EX = 85mm x 70mm stroke

Everything today from the Z400 to the 450's are around 62mm strokes (except KTM XC's).

So when stroking the EX, you're going to 74mm?

That puts a 460 at very close to a KTM 450XC dimension... well +2mm stroked. Seems like a lot to put on an air cooled 400 jug.

Well, anyways... it seems to me that the 400 already has a lot of grunt... so is stroking it really the way to go?

Maybe this is why I liked the KTM?

At the same time though, I can't help but think some of the EX grunt is in the trans gears... maybe lower on the lower end...


I'm just starting to get confused though. I can see where stroking would produce stronger power and more torque... but it would at least seem to me that it would be made slower?

416 stroked 440 v/s just a plain 440.

There are many misconceptions about the effects of adding stroke to an engine. Strokers do not rev slow, they do not run out of steam up top and they're not unreliable.

My 440 lovs to rev and it does it quickly. It favors mid-upper rpm range and pulls hard to 10k(it did until I removed the POS AMR CDI and installed the stocker). I have yet to see another EX run like this one does.

[Miami_Vice454]

wow i am confused, on the hot rods site it says this +4mm crank will make it a 460cc but now i am starting to believe that it wrong, am i missing something??

[Miami_Vice454]

http://www.hotrodsproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.view&productid=508
you guys are wrong, it says it here

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by Miami_Vice454
http://www.hotrodsproducts.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=cProducts.view&productid=508
you guys are wrong, it says it here

i believe thats using an 89mm bore.

[riotact]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
i believe thats using an 89mm bore.

^^ X2

[Miami_Vice454]

im sorry you are right. they should tell you that the crank makes 20cc more not 60. so can you do a stroker but not bore it out?

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Miami_Vice454
im sorry you are right. they should tell you that the crank makes 20cc more not 60. so can you do a stroker but not bore it out?

Yeah, you can just stroke it... and that would take you to a 420... etc...

Here is the math for it... (works for all)

bore x bore x stroke x 0.0007854 = cc's

85 x 85 x 70 x 0.0007854 = 397cc

85 x 85 x 74 x 0.0007854 = 420cc

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Close, +4 stroke on stoke bore would be a 420.

Right... I got 425 from a site advertising their stroker crank... stretching the truth a little... or a 5mm stroker...

[Miami_Vice454]

thanks so much. but i have another question. can you put in the stroker crank with the stock bore? it says it has to be used with the stroker piston which is 89mm. does anyone sell a piston that will work with the stroker but is stock bore?

[Miami_Vice454]

i am talking about the hot rods one just in case your wonderin.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Wheelie
There are many misconceptions about the effects of adding stroke to an engine. Strokers do not rev slow, they do not run out of steam up top and they're not unreliable.

My 440 lovs to rev and it does it quickly. It favors mid-upper rpm range and pulls hard to 10k(it did until I removed the POS AMR CDI and installed the stocker). I have yet to see another EX run like this one does.

Yep... I'm all misconceived and confused...

All I know is that I liked the KTM XC engine with the SOHC and 72mm stroke. It had a good feel off idle on the bottom like the 400EX, yet reved a lot higher than I expected.

And yours is a 416 stroked to 440 right?

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Rootar
Ive ridden a GT 450 stroker and it had gobs of power, but ive also ridden a built 440 that i would say had a little more top and didnt give anything up to it in the bottom....

Thanks for the feedback.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Miami_Vice454
thanks so much. but i have another question. can you put in the stroker crank with the stock bore? it says it has to be used with the stroker piston which is 89mm. does anyone sell a piston that will work with the stroker but is stock bore?

You could with a stock bore stroker piston I'd say.

But it's hard to see where anyone would do this. Some might if they had to split the cases for something early on... but even then I would think most would at least go ahead to an 86mm.

But I would not be surprised if all the stroker pistons are 87-89mm.

[Miami_Vice454]

i was just sayin that cause then if anything happens you could still bore out the cylinder without having to get another sleeve but when i do it i am going to bore it to 89mm so its a 460 when done. i dont think anythings gonna happen, even if it does, oh well. sh*t happens! lol

[Miami_Vice454]

Should i get it re-sleeved if doing an 89mm?

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Miami_Vice454
Should i get it re-sleeved if doing an 89mm?

It "MUST" be re-sleeved to accept an 89mm piston.
At least that is what I recall being told.


I think you have 2 options...

+ Cast Iron re-sleeve
+ Aluminum re-sleeve (Nikasil coated)

[Miami_Vice454]

yea i thought so, just makin sure. what you think is better?

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by MtnEX


And yours is a 416 stroked to 440 right?

Yes.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Miami_Vice454
yea i thought so, just makin sure. what you think is better?

Gosh... I dunno... I think both have their points.

Here is what I'd do I think if it were me...

If I were going to do one of those 89mm standard stroke 440's... I'd probably buy a bolt-on kit, cylinder and all. And if I could get the plated aluminum in that, I think I would... probably not though, so I'd take the cast iron.


If I were going to go all out to a big bore stroker like you are considering, I think I would roll the dice on the plating...

See, the plated aluminum can run tighter clearances, have more power, have better wear characteristics... and better heat transfer. See, that is the big thing... both are aluminum and expand at a more similar rate etc...


The part to worry about on the plating is the next time it comes apart. There is a good chance all it needs is a good wash, even if it seizes... but then again there is a chance it will need mechanical clean-up... or even a re-coat.

And not just anyone knows what they are doing when it comes to these plated bores... and re-plating would likely mean sending it back where you got it.


You might want to call Hetrick Racing to get the ins/outs on the two. They could tell you better... and if you do call, let me know what they say.