frame cracking...

[nynetwo9]

i have a 05 450r, it has pep zps long travels and a walsh savior swinger. I bought it used off a guy a yr ago who had it set up for trail riding. I set it up for mx and started jumping and racing it this year. I went to breezewood last wknd to try out the new track, and when i got home i washed it up and while inspecting the usual spots i noticed what looks like a small hairline crack following the weld on the front shock mount. its on the front tubing.

here my question. i plan on gettin a gusset kit this winter and gettin it powerdercoated. i figure i only have a month off good riding weather left, is it possible to let it go until then? or should i tear it down to get welded asap? i dont feel like tearing it down all the way to put the gussett kit on untl i have the time and the weather is cold. any thoughts?

[jkiserracing]

I have the same situation. Im going to do the same thing over the winter (mine is an 04) except my crack was on the frame near the downtube under the seat which is common I hear. I continued to ride mine (and race but kept a good eye on it..after every practice moto ect.) I used a permanent marker to make a dot on the crack itself where it stopped....just to make sure it wasnt getting worse (or going farther) I went ahead and had it welded because I still have alot of ride time left when I noticed it. So....I would say dont do the whole tear down until your ready to be off the bike a while. Keep an eye on it if you feel its getting worse just have it welded to fix it until you do add the gusset kit.

[Scro]

Originally posted by jkiserracing
I have the same situation. Im going to do the same thing over the winter (mine is an 04) except my crack was on the frame near the downtube under the seat which is common I hear. I continued to ride mine (and race but kept a good eye on it..after every practice moto ect.) I used a permanent marker to make a dot on the crack itself where it stopped....just to make sure it wasnt getting worse (or going farther) I went ahead and had it welded because I still have alot of ride time left when I noticed it. So....I would say dont do the whole tear down until your ready to be off the bike a while. Keep an eye on it if you feel its getting worse just have it welded to fix it until you do add the gusset kit.

x2

[quad2xtreme]

been there and broke that.

If you plan to continue with the mx scene at Breezewood, you might seriously think about getting a chromoly frame from Lonestar (or one of their suppliers).

Once I broke my frame and had a gusset kit installed, it just kept breaking in another spot. The frame is designed to flex and once it is fatigued and you gusset it, you make it rigid. The tubing is really too thin to function in a rigid state.

IMO, you will tear it down, pay for the gusset kit and installation, and powdercoat...then get about 3 months of riding out of it and you are then back in the same boat. Better to use that money towards a nice Lonestar frame.

My advice for now. Go to Home Depot and get a flat piece of steel. Use a grinder to form that to the shape of the piece that goes across the frame between your two front shocks. Drill your shock holes and have it welded into place without tearing your whole quad down.

check your frame really close up around the steering stem mounts too.


Dan Harris cracked his frame too. He is in the process of rebuilding his 2005 450r using a Lonestar frame. I only say this because while it is true that I've come up short on jumps more than once, Dan is an excellent rider who lands about as smooth as one can expect. He rides BPG every week and he still cracked his frame up. I can tell you about another guy who cracked his Suzuki frame up and destroyed his engine cases too.

Point is if you go big and plan to continue going big, you need to plan to pay a bit more than the average rider. Those are some big jumps at BPG and they take their toll. There are many mx tracks where I am sure you would be fine with a stock frame but BPG isn't one of them. Dan likes to have a mix of big jumps and sx-type jumps for style and pleasing the spectators.

hope this helps. Just trying to give you another perspective. Ultimately what is right for me might not be right for you. I knew I was at least 2 seasons from a new quad. Honda isn't making any change for 2010 and I won't buy a new one the 1st year it comes out anyhow.

[Pappy]

Jon, you need to stop beating the LSR chassis so hard on people. We have hundreds of gusseted frames that have been in service for several seasons without further breakage. Most of the problems you have are related to incorrect riding. Over shooting or coming up short on 99% of the jumps will break even the aftermarket chassis....been there worked on them as well.




nynetwo9- have the crack welded now. Cover it with a touch of paint and ride on. Then this winter tear it down and do what you wish.

[nynetwo9]

thanks guys, ill try to get it welded up this weekend. i guess there is a good bit of time to ride before the snow falls for good. especially with this crazy weather we had this year, wh knows when winter will get here.

ultimately a lonestar frame would be my #1 choice, but im not looking to dump that kinda cash in it yet.

[blacknblue#2]

Originally posted by nynetwo9
thanks guys, ill try to get it welded up this weekend. i guess there is a good bit of time to ride before the snow falls for good. especially with this crazy weather we had this year, wh knows when winter will get here.

ultimately a lonestar frame would be my #1 choice, but im not looking to dump that kinda cash in it yet.

Yea man i agree with pappy on this one. have it touched up until time for a tear down. A properly gussetted frame will hold whatever you can throw at it if you respect it. Im 235lbs in full dress. Ive hit stuff well above 100 foot and never had any trouble with a frame thats gussetted. But then again i like to take every precaution i can to make sure i land smooth. Im 23 years old and already have a weak back from this stuff lol. So instead of giving it up i just try to make my ride smoother, Trust me your body and your quad both will appreciate it. Only frame trouble i have ever had was understandable. I hit a blind jump and didnt realize the tiller tractor was on the other side. Needless to say the tractor frame was tougher than my frame so something had to give when i hit it haha.

[Scro]

I just can't justify an LSR chassis. Anything can and will break (or bend) over time. You can get about 3 nice gusseted frames for the price of the LSR. I just don't think the LSR is going to outlast 3 gusseted frames.

I think I should apply to be the test rider for LSR frames:devil:

You want to make sure your suspension is set up for your weight and riding style as well. Suspension that is too soft or too stiff will contribute to the frame cracking.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by Pappy
Jon, you need to stop beating the LSR chassis so hard on people. We have hundreds of gusseted frames that have been in service for several seasons without further breakage. Most of the problems you have are related to incorrect riding. Over shooting or coming up short on 99% of the jumps will break even the aftermarket chassis....been there worked on them as well.


I didn't think I was beating the LSR chassis to people in this or any other thread. Even after reading it again on a standalone basis or in the context of all my posts, I am not sure how anyone could take it that way. :confused: Very few people even know I have an LSR frame and I've never even taken a picture of mine.

I do want to say that I don't have any motive for pushing a Lonestar frame. I am not even remotely affiliated with Lonestar or any reseller. I guess I've been responsible for project engineering and architecture on a daily basis for 20 years so I am used to putting options out there that might not otherwise be considered. It is definitely possible he could spend $2,400 retail on a Lonestar frame, break it, and need require additional welding and powdercoating. As others have stated, he could go the gusset and powdercoat route and be fine for years. He really has to do his own risk assessment and determine his best course. For me, it sucks thinking I might have made the wrong decision. In the end maybe misery loves company so I would feel better knowing more people dumped a pile of money on a LSR frame. In the end, Pappy has way more experience in repairing frames and powdercoating than I ever will so obviously his opinion carries more practical experience than mine.

All I ask is a little credit for my illustrious racing career on this site. :D As uncomfortable as I am with self-promotion (and those who know me from the site know I've never come onto the site boasting about my race career or putting race classes in my signature line that aren't even correct)...I've made it to the starting line 14 times and never DNF'd or crashed in those 14 motos. I placed 2nd in my first 4 motos in the 40 class at Birch Creek and 1st in the next 2 motos at Birch Creek and 1st in the next 4 motos at NCMP in the 40 class. I moved to Vet 30 and placed 4th out of 7 in my final 2 motos at NCMP. I've really only done poorly once...placing 7 out of 8 in the C class at Birch Creek. Of course, I had just finished placing 1st in a previous moto and went right back to the starting line and tried to rest in 90+ degree temps while another moto was finishing. Anyone who races knows the time to relax isn't on the starting line sitting in the direct sun. I don't boast and I am certainly not even close to be the best rider around but I will say this one time that I think I do pretty well for a guy about to turn 45. My skills have gotten better over the past 2 years from riding year round here in NC with younger riders. Hopefully I am not like the really bad singers on American Idol where family and friends tell them how great they are and then Simon brings them down to reality. Your real name isn't Simon Kenneth Hill is it Pappy? :D

[Pappy]

Never watched any tv with me on it, dont know anyone named simon.

Point is, you cant make assumptions based soley on your exierence which are very limited based on your chassis. Since ordering your frame, you have made non stop assertions that it(Aftermarket chassis) is the way to go and for many it is not affordable nor will it provide the security blanket you seem to think it will. It IS a better frame hands down, but it WILL break, especially if riding style isnt changed...be it you or dan.

Dan will break his LSR chassis and so will you. Dan just cant be controlled and you cant seem to find a smooth downside...nothing personal, its just the way it is lol.

And the LTR cases broke because the rider did not have a chassis skid plate and was unlucky enough to hit a rock upon landing.

Racing expierence means jack....reality and common sense comes into play on much of this. Far to many people make assertions about this or that and fail to complete the story with all the facts. I get to see several hundred 450R chassis a year here...and I usually find cracks in most of them even when people claim they dont jump. They can be repaired for the most part as long as they are caught before they are ruined.

Your chassis was sent here in 2 pieces and you were told to fix it, ebay it and buy another. When it rebroke, you started looking for other options after repairing and rebreaking it yet again. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out the root of the cause is fatigue and abuse....something we all are guilty of!

And you could be the #1 rated rider in the country, if you over shoot jumps or come up short non stop...your going to break ****...yourself included.

[Pappy]

BTW...Dan is far from smooth! He is a wildman and does an incredible amount of damage to what ever he rides. He is an animal.

Here....the first red quad to clear the 100 footer is dan on a stock 400ex. Thats not smooth...thats Dan..wide open! he over shoots the landing by about 20 feet on stock 400ex shocks. The 11 second marks is where he airs it out

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[Butter]

Originally posted by Pappy
We have hundreds of gusseted frames that have been in service for several seasons without further breakage. Most of the problems you have are related to incorrect riding. Over shooting or coming up short on 99% of the jumps will break even the aftermarket chassis....been there worked on them as well.




nynetwo9- have the crack welded now. Cover it with a touch of paint and ride on. Then this winter tear it down and do what you wish.

X2!!!!!!!

[fastredrider44]

Well, I have a busted up frame right now and am under the assumption that after 2 seasons of abuse, it has had it's day. I'm not going to fix it and send it on its way, but I'm not going to trash it either. So do you think that a stressed out frame can be fixed and hold together? I'm afraid it's toast and will keep breaking (So I bought another bike for the frame). But IMO, a chromoly tubed frame will outlast several stock frames.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by fastredrider44
Well, I have a busted up frame right now and am under the assumption that after 2 seasons of abuse, it has had it's day. I'm not going to fix it and send it on its way, but I'm not going to trash it either. So do you think that a stressed out frame can be fixed and hold together? I'm afraid it's toast and will keep breaking (So I bought another bike for the frame). But IMO, a chromoly tubed frame will outlast several stock frames.

It is going to depend on the rider and the conditions its riden in. XC wise, id ride a frame thats seen better days but not for MX. Gussted, the frame will be s good as stock but that isnt saying much. It will also depend on your definition of stressed. A few cracks are normal...smashed frame tubes, complete tube breakage and such is a different story

One of the biggest issues I am seeing , especially with the Honda, is that the frames are literally rusting out and fast. Ive had 05 frames in here that you could poke holes in the bottom of from rust. You cant strengthen these areas....the metal is weak from the start and get worse from there. Im actually shocked more folks havent snapped the pegs clean off these frames.

We are going on 3 seasons on a YFZ frame that has been beat on. This winter it will be replaced with an aftermarket chassis just because the owner is out of things to spend $$ on.

[quad2xtreme]

Honestly, I boiled my decision down to 2 choices: a brand new frame for $1,050 shipped to Pappy + $125 for powdercoat and another $75 to get it to me ($1,250) or $1,900 on a Lonestar which included powdercoat and delivery.

Why consider a new frame? I starting riding my 2006 quad in January of 2006. I rode this quad more weekend than not for 2.5 years at various mx tracks in MD, PA and NC. The factory frame was absolutely fantastic for the beating a 200-215 lb guy who apparently can't find a lander put on it for almost 30 months (we ride year round in NC and the jumps at NCMP are similar to BPG).

Pappy is correct. My frame was split through in about 6 different places. Pappy did a beautiful install of the LSR gusset kit, fixed a few places where the gusset kit didn't fix it, and powdercoated. Not a single weld he did ever gave me a problem. It never even cracked again where any of the gussets were installed. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to have Pappy work on my frame again.

My frustration was only going about 3 more months before more cracks started appearing elsewhere. The problem just moved to areas with no gussets. I had to tear it down again to get custom gussets installed. Later, I had more welding done. It was a frustrating experience to say the least.

I am sure Pappy is correct. If you are at the early stages of metal fatigue then it can be fixed and you will probably be fine. I was way past the early stages. Honestly I am not sure when all the cracks started. I never noticed them until my frame completely split just at the rear of the gas tank. Once that happened and I tore it all down then I noticed the other ones.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by Pappy

And the LTR cases broke because the rider did not have a chassis skid plate and was unlucky enough to hit a rock upon landing.


You must be talking about somebody else. I was referencing Tyler who last rode at BPG July 4th weekend. He cracked his LTR frame so bad that the engine cases did their best to hold it together. When he tore his engine apart to fix the tranny, he found the cracked frame and the cracked engine mounts. My Honda frame was actually in a similar condition when I sent it to you...the engine was really holding much of it together.

Good advice on trying to keep a good frame in place for mx. It is scary to think you are hitting 100' jumps on a frame with cracks that you don't even know about.

[quad2xtreme]

Originally posted by Pappy
[B]BTW...Dan is far from smooth! He is a wildman and does an incredible amount of damage to what ever he rides. He is an animal.

Here....the first red quad to clear the 100 footer is dan on a stock 400ex. Thats not smooth...thats Dan..wide open! he over shoots the landing by about 20 feet on stock 400ex shocks. The 11 second marks is where he airs it out



LOL!!! I told him I heard the thud down here when that happened. :p I think the house shook just a bit.

[Pappy]

I think it was Justin who took out his cases...pretty sad when there are multiple people haha

Thats the point I was trying to make Jon, that just because you have a crack doesnt mean you drop coin on a frame from any of the aftermarket companies.

Most racers I know have the quads apart several times a season for various reasons, but when its an average joe the tear down can be alot of work. Ive had quads apart and together twice in a weekend:p

As far as teh video...I held the camera still and was waiting for dan to wad up. That 400 wont stay together long lol. And you should have called, I could have saved you $500 or so on the LSR chassis;)

[HoleshotR15]

Heres a cheap frame i found while browsing, may want to pick it up.
http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=411575

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by Pappy
Im actually shocked more folks havent snapped the pegs clean off these frames.


:grr: Ive removed both pegs on mine at different times. I don't want to spend the money to fix my frame. I think its too far gone.:mad: