Yamaha YFZ450R Suspension, Any Ideas??

[rabbit119]

Hi, I have a Yamaha YFZ450R, but i need to uprate the suspension on it as the standard is not good enough, i race motocross with a lot of jumps, any ideas on the best aftermarket suspension for this?? i've heard that Ohlins are quite good!?

[Colby@C&DRacing]

You might look into the new Race Tech shocks they are super adjustable
http://www.racetech.com/html_files/ATVFrontShocks.html

[ALAMX37]

Your best suspension, is a very arguable thing. There are a few brands that stand out against the rest. PEP, Axis, and Fox all get pretty nice reviews. Any properly setup suspension that has been tuned in will work great. I personally am an axis user, I have owned 7 pair over the last 8-9 years and have never been disappointed.

[kdawgwoody]

Zbroz have been getting their hands into the ATV market and doing a freaking good job, using the ARS FX arms matched with the EXIT shock built by mike hallock (starter of AXIS) I run their stuff and love it really strong and pretty much perfectly set up right out of the box. I know they're working on the yfz 450R you might check in with them and see what they have for it. You can check the website but I would recommend calling they have lots of stuff not on the website.

[rabbit119]

Cheers for your help guys, i think axis and ars are the way forward, i live in the uk so its quite hard to get the axis shocks over here, but i'm going to florida soon, so i might try and pick some up, you guys don't know of any good shops or dealers in that area by any chance do u??
regards richard

[motomxman450]

if i were you and money didnt matter, i would say PEP/Walsh or Fox/Walsh

[number52]

There are a few other issues that need to be addressed on that bike also to make it work much better!

[rabbit119]

what are the other issues??

[number52]

Originally posted by rabbit119
what are the other issues??

The bikes being twitchy at high speeds and hard to turn at low speeds for one!

[John Houser]

The 2009 YFZ450R has caster issues.

As the A-arm raises, positive caster is created. The upper ball joint moves towards the back of the ATV, that is, in relationship to the lower ball joint.

Houser Racing feels that this is backwards to what is desired. Having more caster makes the ATV handle better on straight sections, less caster makes the ATV handle better in turns.

WE worked with Yamaha factory GNCC rider Bill Ballance to solve this problem. We have two solutions for this, our TRICTRAC system & the Cecco Bracket System. After we had the solution, within a few days other GNCC Yamaha riders called to get the same setup. Traci Cecco, John Gallegher, Brandon Sommers, Donnie Ockerman. If you know any of these riders, call & ask how this setup worked for them.

The 2009 YFZ450R handles well, but it is great after using the correct fix. If you have this quad, you will be having more arm pump than usual. That will go away with the fix!

Hope that I did not make this sound too much like a sales pitch. If you own one of these, you need to become aware of potential problems and determine what solutions will work well for you. These forums are a great way to discuss problems & solutions.

John Houser
Houser Racing

I am slow at responding, but ask me any questions that you want about this.

[Pappy]

Hey John....I know Yamaha tried a fix on the 2010 but not sure they solved the issue. Can i assume your arms will also take care of viturally the same issue as the 09's?

Whats your thoughts on installing the LTR spindles as many have in conjunction with your arms?

[John Houser]

The caster issue is only on the YFZ450R, not on the regular YFZ450.

The problem is with the frame & not the spindles. So I am not sure what you are asking about with the LTR spindles.

[motardracer]

Hello Rabbit,
No need to travel to the U.S. to buy axis shocks. Adrenaline ATV in the U.K. offers them for sale. They have been testing out the axis stuff recently, and all of their top riders are now on Axis......

adrenaline atv UK (http://www.adrenalinatv.co.uk/product/?pid=10310)

Give them a call, and I'm sure they can help you!

[Pappy]

Originally posted by John Houser
The caster issue is only on the YFZ450R, not on the regular YFZ450.

The problem is with the frame & not the spindles. So I am not sure what you are asking about with the LTR spindles.

Correct, I am refering to the 2010. Reports I have in tell me that the bad handling is still there but not as bad. Wasnt sure if the arm change would correct the issue as it does on the 09

LTR spindles are what some riders have been trying....along with your arms.

[John Houser]

I was told that the 2009 frames and the 2010 are the same, at least the a-arm mounting portion. The caster issue is created due to the upper a-arm mounting holes not being parallel to the lower mounting holes. Changing spindles would not have any affect on this problem.

Changing the spindles might be solving another issue, but I don't think it solves the caster issue.

[TNT]

If you found a spindle to take out the angle difference at the frame problem solved. :D

[Pappy]

Originally posted by TNT
If you found a spindle to take out the angle difference at the frame problem solved. :D

If I were LSR or the like (any company that manufactures) I would be finding the right angle and making an aftermarket spindle. No offense to Houser, but alot of folks are buying the new machines in expectations of them not needing aftermarket arms etc. If a set of spindles fixed the issue (depending on what issue is the issue:p ) I am sure it would be a cheaper route then a new set of arms as long as it indeed correct a problem. Pretty sure what John is stating is relating exclusively to the caster problem.

[John Houser]

Pappy I am glad that we are having this discussion. You still do not understand what the problem is. I figure that you are one of the most informed people on this site, so this tells me that most people do not understand the problem.

NO SPINDLE will fix this problem. A spindle can change the caster setting just like what our SLICAST system could do, but then the caster is set & that is it.

This is what happens. When the a-arm is in the down position the caster is about 5 degrees. As the a-arm is raised, the caster changes to 8.5 gegrees. When after market a-arms are put on it, creating a little more wheel travel, the caster problem gets worse. When you hit the brakes before & during a corner, the caster increases making the quad handle better on straights, but you are cornering, YUK!!!

I'll try to take some pictures to day to see if I can show you what I'm talking about. I may need some help posting these, never have done that before.

If you still don't get it, don't feel bad. We had the bike in here for two months & did not see it. I understood it after Bill Balllance & Laz at GT Thunder called me. It took those guys about 4 to 6 months to discover what was making the handling problems.
They knew that we had the TRICTRAC system which worked just opposite and could fix the problem. Our normal TRICTRAC changes the caster about 2.5 degrees. After we calculated & measured I figured that our TRICTRAC would only fix 70% of the problem. We developed a bracket that remounted the a-arms. It corrected the frame problem & we added two more degrees so it would work like our TRICTRAC. We sent it to Bill Ballance, Laz & Traci Cecco. They all loved it! Bill talked to AMA before he raced it & they would not let him use it. It is changing the OEM pivot points. It could not be used in pro, pro-am, production, etc. It would be ok for Traci to use & she did. (Her first win of the season). As far as the pros go, it was back to the TRICTRAC!! This was Tuesday before Lorretta Lynns. I told them that the TRICTRAC would not be nearly as good as the bracket, but everyone was happy with a partial fix than a 0 fix. We made the upper a-arm with the 2.5 degree TRICTRAC on it. We took a-arms to Lorretta Lynns Friday afternoon. Bill Ballance & Brandon Sommers installed them on their quads. The problem is so bad, & the desire for a fix s much, that these two pro riders were willing to put a magor part on their quad & race it untested! It was agreat day for HOUSER Racing. Traci won her first race of the season with the bracket, Bill won his first race f the season & Brandon got his first pro podium. It was truly an ATV success story!! (Maybe just to me).

Celebrate Saturday, reallity on Monday.

How can we get more caster change & how do get more life out of the TRICTRAC. Both difficult problems. The TRICTRAC was wearing out after 1 or 2 races. The TRICTRAC lasts 6-12 months with alot of use in MX racing. But we all know that XC makes everything wear out at a greater rate. Going under water with sand EATS anything out in the open. In MX we had cloth covers that kept junk out. That worked well for MX but did not work under sandy water at all.

We designed a higher lead screw to get 50% more travel out of the system. Took 6 weeks & $8,000. At the same time we designed a system to keep the TRICTRAC enclosed & greased. You can not even tell that it is a TRICTRAC. Both of these were ready by the last GNCC race before break. All the factory Yamaha riders used them. Wear is much better.

It took a lot of effort. Since the 2010 frames are the same as 2009, we have another year to sell products. I know that no one knows or understands the problem because we have not sold a bunch of these fixes. I am not sure a forum like this will do the trick.

[Pappy]

I understand the problem, just looking for the answer or reason the spindle change on a few machines in conjunction with an arm change or what cause and effect they found prompting the need for a spindle change etc. I will ask a few questions today when I see the riders and see if they will give me any insight....I usually wait until they get a few races in before asking so that I get a real answer instead of a geuss haha.


My thinking on a spindle would be speculative if it were a cure for this or future issues.....maybe an adjustable spindle? Just tossing ideas to the wind:p I'm good at stirring the pot....it gets people thinking!

The biggest issue I have as you stated with the Trictrac is the early wear. And this is merely a money issue so I am glad to hear of the changes to add some life for the average rider. Ofcourse many of us will spend what ever it takes (well not me I am broke !)

As far as the issue, it is well known if you attend the races....its all I hear followed by "They have no power":p. I would suspect the lack of sales is again, due to money.....folks just aint got it.

I stand by my assumption that most folks buy these machines expecting a race ready quad for the most part. With the Pro riders input into the machines (or atleast people assume the factories heed the advice in the process) that an issue such as this just shouldnt be. I'm not even sure most amatuer riders can feel the problem or know what good handling is. However, when they buy a machine and then HAVE to buy a set of arms ($900) and a set of shocks ($1200) that this drives business away from that machine and or prevents them financially from turning to the aftermarket, hence lower sales of a known fix.

I will be on the road heading to the GNCC but I know a few folks will pitch in if you need help with pictures. I wish more people would take the time to help us understand the issue and post about it. I thank you for your input and if you can get the pics up I will use your info and what not to create a thread in the YFZ section to help enlighten even more folks.

I know you are usually at Powerline, and if you are, I will stop by and get some pics and info to help.

[Pappy]

And I have been following the process of the Yammy guys and gals trying to get this sorted out...but havent been to out spoken about it because I knew they were dealing with an issue that wasnt an easy fix.



http://kenhill.smugmug.com/photos/615766710_qfXPS-XL.jpg

http://kenhill.smugmug.com/photos/635227718_arH4q-XL.jpg

http://kenhill.smugmug.com/photos/651900296_Q3gBM-XL.jpg

[TNT]

You can design a spindle with a "floating" upper ball joint axis that solves this problem. Right now the axis s/b @ 90 degree to the upper arm axis, you move it fwd(angle it fwd) by the angular distance between upper and lower arm, now it's no longer 90 deg to the arm and traveling along it's arc or arm swing. That would put the arc the upper ball joint swings through forward and take out + caster. Problem is as John stated it's "set". That can be solved with a insert that allows the axis to float incrementally fwd/rear and/or up/dn per degree of arm travel. Nice thing about the upper ball joint is it doesn't see as much load as the lower and would lend it self to this easier. Nice thing about this approach is pro's can run it.

Right Pappy a good spindle company should get all over this! Pappy is correct there is more than one way to skin a cat, a smart designer can solve this for a lower cost, don't think the only solution is in the arms, shift them and relocating the arm axis. A spindle axis can be mechanically moved and shifted too.

What was YAM thinking on this one. :rolleyes:

[number52]

Originally posted by TNT

What was YAM thinking on this one. :rolleyes:

They weren't thinking because they just copied off of someone else screw up!

[John Houser]

We would have to talk to the person who designed this frame. I do not know if the design was intentional or not. Many the designer wanted the quad to push in the corners to slow it down a touch. My 2003 Z06 has a rev limiter on it to slow it down! I am sure that if I raced it, that would come off.

As racers who want to go as fast as possible, we think that the frame design was a mistake. New designs always come with areas that need improved. I always like to look at the whole picture. The new YFZ450R has many more positives than negatives. We just have fixes for one of the negatives. Since our TRICTRAC is patent product, we are the only fix for the pros, pro-am, production classes.

How big of a problem is this? The pros think that is is a big problem. But the bike must handle well enough as is for the general public since we have all heard how good it is by new owners. We have not heard complaints from the average owner. The truth is, that out of all these units sold, only the people reading this thread know about the problem. After 6 months or so after the bike is out, that's not bad.

[John Houser]

We have a video on our web site that attempts to show what is going on.

houser-racing.com

go to video section.

Select Cecco Bracket.

This is the solution that Traci Cecco is using. It is a simple solution that could be used if you are not in one of the pro, pro-am, production classes. It is available to work with OEM a-arms or one of our after market sets. Same moving parts as the regular a-arm. It only adds a small amount to the price of a set of a-arms.

We need to get a video of the TRICTRAC setup that the pros are using. Maybe Pappy will have pictures & some info after he comes back from the GNCC.

[TNT]

I got to see the angle and set up for the first time this weekend at a race and that is quite an angle on the upper arm. New in 09 too since I don't see it on older quads. I didn't see any caster adjustment from what I can tell I look again tommorrow. I still thiink that spindle could be an approach. Guy's I talked to said they didn't notice it and thought the quad handled fine, Hmmmmm? That was one guy's opinion.

Interesting to say the least!

[John Houser]

Pappy & TNT, did you go to our web site & see the video? I was wondering if it helped or does it need more work?

The lower a-arm & the shock are perpendicular to each. As the a-arm is raised & lowered, the lower ball joint basically moves along the the same line as the shock absorber.

The upper a-arm mounting to the frame is angled. As the upper a-arm is raised, the ball joint moves towards the back of the ATV. This increases the caster when the suspension is compresses.

TNT, I do bot see how a spindle change would fix this, but then again look at how many people do not know this problem exists! Of course if a spindle change would work, how much would that cost?

As I said before, if it took the factory Yamaha boys months to find this problem, the average guy won't find it on his own. The ATV works well as is, just not as good as it could.

[ronnieb99]

I have seen the video and I understand the problem.
I would like to know if the Cecco Bracket is sold separate because I cant find a price on them?
My mechanic made my A-Arms 3cm wider and he made 4mm spacers for the bottom A-Arms which go in the front when I am on hard pack and go to the rear in the sand. and it handles allot better now but in the tight corners it still isn't what I want.
We have different kind of MX tracks here in Europe.
Thanx Ron

[John Houser]

As I look on our web site, I see that the entire set of a-arms are shown. Part number 245902, Under Yamaha YFZ450R. That picture shows the Cecco bracket.

We made an upper a-arm to match your OEM a-arms. It has SLICAST adjustment, part number 245404. $588 You would have to make sure that you lower a-arm was put back to stock location. If you try it & don't like it I'll refund the purchase price. We know that it works great for XC but no feed back for MX.

[Pappy]

I think it explains it well John

I did not have a chance to chat with any of teh Yamaha crew at length about the spindle changes or what else they have found. I will be at Powerline early so hopefully I can and ofcourse I would love to chat with you about it as well.

I think the spindle change may be more of a tweak or they may be looking for that last little bit of correction but thats is just a geuss.

The $588 isnt bad at all considering you get a fix that can still use the factory shocks etc.

[Pappy]

Hey John, do you still have that set of Slicast Max clearance arms for a KFX450 o hand? I saw them in the clearence section of your site and would probably get them....

[TNT]

Originally posted by John Houser
Pappy & TNT, did you go to our web site & see the video? I was wondering if it helped or does it need more work?

The lower a-arm & the shock are perpendicular to each. As the a-arm is raised & lowered, the lower ball joint basically moves along the the same line as the shock absorber.

The upper a-arm mounting to the frame is angled. As the upper a-arm is raised, the ball joint moves towards the back of the ATV. This increases the caster when the suspension is compresses.

TNT, I do bot see how a spindle change would fix this, but then again look at how many people do not know this problem exists! Of course if a spindle change would work, how much would that cost?

As I said before, if it took the factory Yamaha boys months to find this problem, the average guy won't find it on his own. The ATV works well as is, just not as good as it could.

John,

I watched the video it looked fairly easy to understand. I would have like to see it all installed on the quad afterwards in motion. I had to snoop around other locations on the site to understand the installation of the bracket and how it related to the tri-trac and problem. I mean I like the straight edge that helped me understand, but the red lines that showed the difference between the two arm axis lengths I had to think about since we are really talking about an angle. I understand those distances but young kids might not get it.

I still don’t get why anything but the bracket is needed to just make the upper arm parallel to the lower? Why won’t the stock arms work with a relocating bracket? I think you said you only got a 2.5 deg correction, I would think that would fix the entire problem but don’t listen to me I got to see the quad for a bit last weekend at a race. From what I did see there is no caster adjustment? Maybe that’s why? I did not see a ball joint that swiveled or rotated either or was I not awake yet…..lol?

Being new to the quad issue an Engineer if I am having difficulty you can imagine a teen? Maybe a better video would help sales.

You’re correct a spindle fix here would cost to develop, I really like the tri-trac design, I have seen it before in aircraft just can remember what the name of the joint is. I thought maybe a spindle company or Houser could use the same technology to make the upper ball joint move but it would cost and needs sales volume to recoupe the cost, looks like you got the fix at the arm good luck w/sales.

My .02

Terry

[John Houser]

The Bracket fixes the frame problem plus another 2.5 degrees. It works like our TRICTRAC does on the Honda.

Since our A-Arms have the SLICAST adjustment on them, you use this system to fine tune your initial caster. It takes an after noon of testing to find the setting that works for that rider. Each SLICAST click changes the caster by .4 degrees. The better riders can tell this amount.

[quadboy-55]

Originally posted by motardracer
Hello Rabbit,
No need to travel to the U.S. to buy axis shocks. Adrenaline ATV in the U.K. offers them for sale. They have been testing out the axis stuff recently, and all of their top riders are now on Axis......

adrenaline atv UK (http://www.adrenalinatv.co.uk/product/?pid=10310)

Give them a call, and I'm sure they can help you!

you can also buy on line, thats what i do.