Shoot out coming soon! 450r carb vs. OEM carb

[tri5ron]

I went to Pro Shop, in Stanton, Ca. yesterday afternoon and spoke with owner John Berg for over an hour.
Fortunately for me, He was done working for the day, and was just hanging around the shop, waiting for a customers RAZR to get dropped off, so we had all the time in the world to just shoot the breeze.

He seems like a straight honest guy.
I got a very good impression from him, as being a quite knowledgeable and experienced.
(and I also liked his personality too).

My quad will be visiting him in the next few days, and I'm quite confident that good things will happen.
I / We, are going to do something a little out of the usual with my dyno runs.

We are going to be doing a couple of runs with the stock OEM carb, check and adjust for premium jetting/performance, to get it all dialed in to my aftermarket exhaust/intake/ etc.,...
and running / recording all the graphs.

Then I am going to swap out that carb, with a modified 450r carb, (a popular upgrade for many 400EX riders), and we are going to do some runs, jet, tune, etc,.. to get IT, all dialed in.

At THAT point,
We are going to compare all the parameters, graphs, and results.

This is to determine,
IF,... in fact ,...the 450r carb on a 400EX, is a WORTHWHILE modification, with Justifiable, MEASUREABLE, and Verifiable, Performance improvements,...

OR,...

If it is all just hype, or Insignificant gains,
(or for that matter, ... overkill).

Alot of guys have done this mod to their 400EX's, and most claim it to be the best thing since sliced bread.
(and if it proves out to be that,... then GREAT!)

BUT,...

Of the few guys who have documented dyno runs,
It seems that they have ONLY done their runs AFTER the installation of the 450r carb. (never before, and/or BOTH).

I have not seen anybody show definative proof,
(maybe it's there, and I just haven't seen it),

With documented dyno runs,...
That the 450r carb puts out any SIGNIFICANT gains, compared to a properly jetted and tuned OEM 400EX carb,
(again,... with documented dyno runs)

This will be a "Apples to Apples" comparison, of the two different carbs,
on the same quad,
on the same dyno,
on the same day,
with the same mods.

As opposed to,
a "Apples to Oranges" CLAIM,
of one carb on one quad, ...
and the other carb on a different quad,...
with different mods, at different elevations,
with different air temps, humidity levels, fuels, etc.

Hopefully, this will be a, Proof is in the Pudding, "Shootout"...
to either Verify or Dispell,...
The notions, Reguarding how much of an improvement,
the 450r carb gives to the performance envelope,
of a modified 400EX.

The only thing I can think of, that would make this even a better, and MORE fun test,...
would be if I was to start off with my bone stock exhaust, intake, filter, airbox, and do a few runs with it in stock form, FIRST.

But Alas,...
I can only afford to buy enough dyno time,
to do the straight Carb to Carb comparisons.
(heck, I really cant AFFORD to do THAT).

This should be fun,
and I look forward to working with John.

Any suggestions that you may have,
to better this test ,
are welcomed.

[mmbintn]

to bad you dont have an edelbrock carb. I run the 440 eichner carb and would like to see the chart with it on the bike.

[Speedy 400ex]

This is great! Cant wait to see the results!

[dariusld]

Even if you make two identical runs on a dyno, your not always going to get the same result, too many variables, especially when talking about 1 or 2 HP.

And I think the 450 carb is over hyped. From all the talk on here, I was expecting to notice a difference, I did, but not what I was expecting. And of my kinda of bike should benefit the most from this mod:confused:

Maybe its just the way my carb is set-up and if I rode someone elses bike I would notice a positive difference. I spent a little time jetting it and getting it where I thought was the best gain:confused:

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by dariusld
Even if you make two identical runs on a dyno, your not always going to get the same result, too many variables, especially when talking about 1 or 2 HP.
This test is Intended, to be a comparison of the SIGNIFICANT Differences,
and / or, gains,
between the 2 carbs.

But if you have a suggestion,
as to how to more equally and fairly do this test,
and make the comparisons,

Then I am all ears.

Can you please expand some, on the variables mentioned, so that we may be able to reduce them to the best of our ability ?

How would you suggest,
That we can make this a more Controlled environment,
and fairly equal test ?

[dariusld]

Originally posted by tri5ron
How would you suggest,
That we can make this a more Controlled environment,
and fairly equal test ?

I don't know. I do know that when they do shoot-outs that they go out of their way to try to repeat conditions, which in my opinion is very hard.

[honda400ex2003]

i cant wait to see the results. too bad you cant do some others too like the sparks key, stator, or a cdi to see if there is a good difference in them too. steve

[dariusld]

Originally posted by honda400ex2003
. too bad you cant do some others too like the sparks key, stator, or a cdi to see if there is a good difference in them too. steve

I wanna see the choke removal or the ground down header welds:D

[honda400ex2003]

those would be good too. steve

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by dariusld
I wanna see the choke removal or the ground down header welds:D
are we now going to get into a debate of Pink vs. Purple Powerbands ?

come on guys,
any Realistic suggestions or contributions, to make this a better test, are certainly welcomed.

I'm the one who is going to be putting out the cash for this, and I have nothing to gain, other than my quad should be running at it's best peak performance.

As well, ...it should also result in some good, indisputable, results, and graphs,...
That may be,... and should be,... of benefit to others here.

or would you prefer to just turn this thread, into some sort of Jaw Flapping, Unrelated, Non-Benificial, Yakfest, that so many other threads end up being?

[honda400ex2003]

i was suggesting them for someone to do, not something to actually do in your test. maybe exriders will do something like this one day and post their results. this is going to be a great comparison between a very interesting and talked about issue. steve

[RaginRedneck]

Kickass!!! Can't wait to see the results!

[gt400ex]

Maybe if time is available a lid vs no lid side by side would be nice to see.

[Which 450?]

Def do lid/no lid.... I cant wait..

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by gt400ex
Maybe if time is available a lid vs no lid side by side would be nice to see. I'll ask John to see what he thinks, but I suspect, that it would not be benefical, in this test, due to,
I already have a few "Bolt-on" mods,
that basically require a no lid / or cut-out lid, configuration.

The "Control", on this test is going to be perfomed on a '03 400EX with,...

Big Gun Full Header w/ Race Series Muffler, and Quiet core,
Uni foam Filter w/ cut-out lid, and Outerwears Prefilter,
Sparks +6 Timing advance key,
Full tank of fresh 91 octane pump gas,
Fresh Oil filter, and Honda spec oil,
Valves properly adjusted,
Stock piston, coil, sparkplug, rev-box, stator, etc.

I'd LOVE to start off with putting on the stock muffler, airfilter, lid, and no +6 key,Just to see what it will be producing above and beyond a "off the showroom floor" set-up,...
I'd be willing, and glad to do it, if there was more cash available to do a "Stock - to - Mods" Dyno test.

BUT, that would cost more $$$ in dyno time, and lets face it,...
Who do you really know, that leaves their 400EX, Bone Stock ???

And for those riders that DO leave it bone stock,
they usually are not the ones who are that interested in the performance gains of Mods, and Aftermarket upgrades.

I dont know,... maybe I'm wrong there,
but I doubt that it's really that beneficial to start it off with a bone stock Dyno run.

[mmbintn]

I think this will be a great test. I cant wait to see the graphs.

[Honda#4]

Finally a thread worth reading, should be interesting to see the results,ive always wanted to know if the 450 carb is worth putting on.

[wrekd]

Originally posted by Honda#4
Finally a thread worth reading, should be interesting to see the results,ive always wanted to know if the 450 carb is worth putting on.


x2....Im definitely gonna hold off on the 450 carb til after the dyno results.

I really don't think you're gonna see any major gains. Maybe a 1hp increase ( hopefully at least 2hp). But the power delivery might be a little smoother with the better carb.

Good luck!!

[VTredneckgames]

sounds like an excellent idea.

My only suggestion is to make sure you overlap the dyno results into a single graph. Two side by side doesnt show much. JMO

cant wait to see the results.

[Ryanwolfe911]

Originally posted by tri5ron
I'll ask John to see what he thinks, but I suspect, that it would not be benefical, in this test, due to,
I already have a few "Bolt-on" mods,
that basically require a no lid / or cut-out lid, configuration.

The "Control", on this test is going to be perfomed on a '03 400EX with,...

Big Gun Full Header w/ Race Series Muffler, and Quiet core,
Uni foam Filter w/ cut-out lid, and Outerwears Prefilter,
Sparks +6 Timing advance key,
Full tank of fresh 91 octane pump gas,
Fresh Oil filter, and Honda spec oil,
Valves properly adjusted,
Stock piston, coil, sparkplug, rev-box, stator, etc.

I'd LOVE to start off with putting on the stock muffler, airfilter, lid, and no +6 key,Just to see what it will be producing above and beyond a "off the showroom floor" set-up,...
I'd be willing, and glad to do it, if there was more cash available to do a "Stock - to - Mods" Dyno test.

BUT, that would cost more $$$ in dyno time, and lets face it,...
Who do you really know, that leaves their 400EX, Bone Stock ???

And for those riders that DO leave it bone stock,
they usually are not the ones who are that interested in the performance gains of Mods, and Aftermarket upgrades.

I dont know,... maybe I'm wrong there,
but I doubt that it's really that beneficial to start it off with a bone stock Dyno run.
Mine is bone stock, rght down to the parking brake cable. It gets me where I want to go, so I dont' really care. I'm interested in performance all right. But I'm only gonna modify my 450R.

[smelly$cat]

I thought the bone stock HP on a 400ex was pretty well known. Not that I know off the top of my head, but, I thought is was somewhere around 28hp? Anyone know?

When is the test going to take place?

Looking forward to the results.... :)

[Snipe]

I found the carb to be worthless and ruine my performance. I am kinda excited to see something like this done. Hope it wasn't all in my head lol.

Nice to see the members are keeping something going, the website have kinda forgotten about us EX riders since the 450 craze. Guess they forgot it was originally exriders.com and that the EX page has more post's than any other forum other than open forum lmao.

[Which 450?]

Originally posted by Snipe
I found the carb to be worthless and ruine my performance. I am kinda excited to see something like this done. Hope it wasn't all in my head lol.

Nice to see the members are keeping something going, the website have kinda forgotten about us EX riders since the 450 craze. Guess they forgot it was originally exriders.com and that the EX page has more post's than any other forum other than open forum lmao.

The 450r carb? I think it was more worth while then when I put the 416 kit and pipe on my old 400ex.

[Snipe]

Yup the 450R carb. In low end it gave a better throttle response but that really was all it did, no more power no more nothin. After getting past taking off the thing went bizzar couldnt get it to work it out changed jets/settings MANY times and still closest I could get it to run was with dead spots in the throttle. Went back to stock and had to actually go bigger on jet size and it runs perfect and way stronger than it ever thought of with the R carb.

IME the R carb was a waste of time and money installing.

But plus side I at least got to try it out and resold it on ebay for $20 profit.

[Which 450?]

Wow, Mine runs great, but whats weird is Im a good bit richer then anyone else on here I've seen and she runs excellent. Mega power. I hit the rev limiter way faster then before, and Im 215 lbs.

[Pipeless416]

i think monitoring oil temperature throughout the runs could help the consistency. looking forward to the results.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
i think monitoring oil temperature throughout the runs could help the consistency. looking forward to the results. great idea, and good point, will do.
I have the XR'sOnly temp gauge dip stick, as well as a laser/IR type temp gauge. I'll use them both.
This gives me another idea too, I'll use the laser to also monitor the temp of the headpipes at various jettings and speeds.
It might come in handy for somebody doing some of their own jetting.
I'm putting together box of stuff to take with me, both carbs, fuel lines, both twist throttles, jets, extra spark plug, lug wrench, extra batteries for camera, extra SD card, note pad, pen, and now the laser temp gauge.
Thanks for the excellent tip. Keep them coming...

Hopefully the test will be sometime next week, after the holiday weekend is over.

[odog]

good thread cant wait to see the results. i will also like to see the 450r carb vs a sparks or lectron 39mm fcr carb all the techs says that is the way to go but thats a big price pay i want to see if its worth it i heard u should see any where between 3-8hp depending on mods that u have.

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Well...I'm under the impression that over-carb'ing is like running a higher octane; pretty much useless. If the OEM carb supplies an adequate supply for air/fuel then I'd not expect much if any improvement. The only improvement would come if they under-carb'd the 400EX.

Granted, the 400EX does seem a bit de-tuned from the factory and there's a lot more potential to be tapped. Open the lid, K&N air filter, re-jet, exhaust, sparks key.....all very simple stuff that makes a BIG difference. Myself? I have to hold on pretty tight when I gas it, this thing pulls stumps!!! :D

My only concern is that with more power comes more heat...and this is not a liquid cooled engine, it's air-cooled. Keeping the compression low, retarding the timing and a few other OEM measures MAY just be intentional on the part of the factory design.

Remember; when you find a way to make the candle burn brighter, it generally means the candle won't burn as long. I'm with Ron, I want all then performance within reason...but only up to the point where reliability isn't compromised.

This dyno test will be great....thanks Ron!

[skillet]

So whats the out come? Anything new?

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by skillet
So whats the out come? Anything new?
I have a appointment with the Dyno shop on Wednesday.
Should be able to post results shortly after that.

[gt400ex]

Originally posted by skillet
So whats the out come? Anything new?

Nevermind got beat to responding lol

[tri5ron]

going out to load the quad into the trailer right now.
I'll be at the Dyno shop at 9am in the morning.
this should be fun and interesting.

so does anyone here want to make any predictions?
what do you think?
will the 450r carb make more power?
will the oem carb be just as good?
what do you think the top HP will be for each one?
top torque?

lets hear what you think, and see who comes closest :D

[matt14c]

I think the 450 carb will outduel the stock carb but not by much. no more than 1/2 hp or so.

[honda400ex2003]

I think that the stocker and the 450 will be very similar myself. around 34 hp or so. just a guesstimate though. steve

[Which 450?]

I think it will add a good bit up top. And im very critical when it comes to upgrades, I test and test. My **** revs out a heck of alot quicker now...

[F-16Guy]

I think the gains will be minimal with a stock compression ratio, stock bore engine. I'd say maybe 1 hp, and probably in the mid-to-upper RPM range.

If you did the swap on a big bore, high compression engine with a cam, you'd probably see a more dramatic difference.

If the engine in it's current configuration can't flow more air than the stock carb can provide, then you wouldn't see an improvement by installing a bigger carb. That's why most big bore guys back in the day stuck with the 39 FCR instead of the 41 FCR. Their engines couldn't flow enough to make a 41 FCR work right, so it actually ran worse because it killed the bottom end power due to a loss in velocity.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
I think the gains will be minimal with a stock compression ratio, stock bore engine. I'd say maybe 1 hp, and probably in the mid-to-upper RPM range.

If you did the swap on a big bore, high compression engine with a cam, you'd probably see a more dramatic difference.

If the engine in it's current configuration can't flow more air than the stock carb can provide, then you wouldn't see an improvement by installing a bigger carb. That's why most big bore guys back in the day stuck with the 39 FCR instead of the 41 FCR. Their engines couldn't flow enough to make a 41 FCR work right, so it actually ran worse because it killed the bottom end power due to a loss in velocity. Well, I've got the some toast in the toaster, and coffee brewing. just thought I'd check what you all thought before I go.
Although, it would be nice to think that this mod is the answer to 175 HP, and 500 Ft Lbs Torque...

I think, (and have always thought), that the gains, if any, will be minimal. I think that F-16Guy explains it well, and since we are obviously not at the terminal velocity of the OEM carb, I feel that the OEM carb will do a better job of atomization.
This is what BikeSwimLaugh was in reference to when commenting on overcarbing. and basically, I have to agree.

Remember though, that Opinions , (Mine included), are like arse-orifices, ...we all have one.
and the real proof will be in the numbers.

Maybe if I decide to get a cam later on, I'll go do this test again, and we'll see if anything changes. Maybe not.

well the toaster just popped, and the coffee pot is beeping...
Gotta go do some testing....
c-ya !

[sab24711]

well i have the 450r carb on mine and i love it. i don't think i will be taking it off just because of some numbers i just love that response.what it comes down to is more air more horsepower plain and simple.

[Pipeless416]

i'm going to guess the biggest gain will be in the 5000-7500 RPM range.. i'd guess 1.5 HP over the stock carb at the highest, and about 1 HP over the entire curve after 3000 RPMs. If i win, i want bonbons. :devil:

[F-16Guy]

....waiting patiently.... :scary:





Okay, my guess at overall HP with the 450R carb and his mods is 32.4.

[steve181]

Well im gunna go ahead and be a loner :P

im gunna have to say 35.2

[Pipeless416]

oh, i forgot my overall guess.. 30.5 peak with the OEM carb.. 32 peak with the 450r carb.

[tri5ron]

Well it was a interesting day, and I enjoyed working with John, and Randy at Pro shop.
This test was quite a bit more time consuming than a standard dyno run, and what they normally do in one.
They both Really took their time, understood the intent and desired results of this test, and did a FANTASTIC job.

They had alot of paitence, and focused the better part of 3 hours, on my quad. (they do have other customers too ya know ;-), ...).
Things were moving fairly quickly, and I was doing my best to stay out of their way as much as possible, and not be a pest. So I did not get to record some of the smaller details like headpipe temps, etc.
But all the important, and pertainent, comparisons and numbers are here, for us all to digest, as we see fit.

These guys are professionals, their time is valuable, and I can honestly say, that I will be glad to give them the highest possible recommendations, and I will certainly refer customers to them.

THANKS John and Randy,... you guys did a HELLUVA job !


Now lets get to some of the results of the day...

Randy first checked/adjusted the valves, slapped on some smoothies and strapped it down to the machine. (it's got a tank of fresh 91 octane, fresh GN4 10-40w oil and new oil filter.)

Engine mods are:
Full system Big Gun Race series, w/ Quiet core, and fresh packing.
Sparks +6 key
Fresh Uni
and my homemade, Outerwears covered, cutout lid.

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_0184.jpg


We started out with the 450r carb, modified "by the book", to fit the 400EX. It's got ZR's adapter, hot start plunger installed, top bowl vent plugged/ redrilled on side, a 175 kiehen main, 50 kiehen pilot, clip 4th from the top, AF 2 1/2 turns out.
Air temp is 77, humidity is 38%, engine oil is 150-165 degrees.

first run pulled 30.8 HP & 24 ft lbs. torque.
next we pulled the Outerwears off and got 31.2 HP & 24.1 ft. lbs.

changed the main to a 170, 31.7 HP & 24.3 ft. lbs.

changed the main to a 168, 32.0 HP & 24.2 ft. lbs.

changed the AF to 3 turns out 32.2 HP& 24.3 ft. lbs.


changed main to 162, AF 3 turns out 32.7 HP & 25.3 ft. lbs.

all Dyno runs are 5th gear pulls...
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Next we switched out to the OEM 400EX Carb, as I recieved it from when I bought the quad used. it already had the Big Gun, a K&N, and rejetted per the B.G. suggestions...

now these next runs, with the 400ex carb, are with Dynojets, not Kiehens. ('cuz thats what was in it). So if someone here wants to do the DJ to Kiehen conversions, then feel free to do so.

dyno run # .020, (on the graph sheet), was with a 165 main, 42 pilot, AF screw 3 turns, clip 4th from the top, and it pulled 30.8 HP & 25.2 ft.lbs.

dyno run # .023, was a 165 main, 42 pilot, AF screw at 2 1/2 turns, and it pulled 31.1 HP & 25.5 ft. lbs.

dyno runs .026, .027, .028, were still on the 160 main, and playing with the AF screw, and putting the Outerwears back on... but as you can see on the graph, we lost numbers, so thats the best it was going to get in Johns opinion.
(btw- the Outerwears cut HP by .3 on both carbs)


http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_0193.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_0194.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_0195.jpg

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n148/tri5ron/03%20400ex/IMG_0183.jpg


John was closely watching the AF readings on the tail pipe sniffer, and this was as far (lean) as he wanted, and was comfortable to go. Keep in mind, that he want to tune the carb so that it will run respectably well from 500 ft elevation, to 3000 ft elevation.

Is there a TINY bit of trade off there? sure.
Can you measure it if you had a dyno at 500ft., and the same dyno at 3000 ft.? sure.
(but we are REALLY talking about Splitting Hairs here, and you Would Not be able to feel the difference by the seat of your pants.)

would you feel a difference at 5000-6000 ft. ? Of coarse you would.


So all in all, on a stock piston, stock cam, aftermarket exhaust, air filter, and sparks key...
It looks like the 450r carb delivered about 2 more HP, and pretty much kept the same torque.

Throttle responce WAS slightly improved,...
and was a bit smoother throughout the rpm range.
(but you pretty much need to be on a dyno, to see it)

so now the question is this....

New from Honda.........................................$160 +tax
Used 450r carb on ebay............................. $90-$120
HS plunger from Service Honda.................. $27
450r throttle cable.......................................$28-$38 (MotionPro)
450r fuel line.............................................. ..$ ??? (mine came with it)
carb adapter........................................... ......$47
and your time/effort to make it happen.........$ ???

And you get 2 HP, IF, you get it properly and perfectly tuned.
Is it worth it???? well, that's up to you to decide.

but considering that Many of us here have dropped some serious cash on full exhaust systems, with airfilters, outerwears, and jets,.... to pick up what ???? 4-5 HP Max???

and in all fairness,....

John DID also say, that with larger bores, higher compressions, bigger cams,.....there would Probably see slightly better gains.

His guess on that???
Quote--- "MAYBE 2-3 more, but dont go thinking, that it'll be something more than that, 'cuz it won't".


So that's all I got for you guys for this test, and lets hear what you guys have to say,.....

was it a fair test ?
was it worth the wait?
did you get out of it what you expected?
should I have done it differently?
or...
am I just a failure in life?
should I just go get a stool, rope, and toss it over a tall tree branch?
am I destined to go rot, and burn in He77 ?
:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[buster024]

....killin' me......

....but it does look like you picked up a full pony with the R carb.....
Unless I'm reading that wrong, it looks like a snappier response, with 1 extra horse......slam dunk.

[bigd's ex]

Type faster!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:devil:

[Wheelie]

Mobiledyno picked up 4hp with the carb swap on a 12.5:1 440 a while back.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Wheelie
Mobiledyno picked up 4hp with the carb swap on a 12.5:1 440 a while back. well that sounds about right in line with what John was saying, in reguards to 2-3 HP more, on top of the 2 that we got today.
so I guess,...
that HIS guess,....
is pretty close ! :D :D :D

finally some solid numbers and no more guessing for both the normal mods and then what the R carb adds to a fairly stock machine. IMO it would not be worth the money and time unless you have the motor more modified to get more air in and out. Different cam and overbore i'm sure the gains would be much better.

[martnmx288]

Was that an 04/05 450R carb or a 06+ FCR?

[Duf6]

this was something i was wondering about. thanks for puttin the time and money to get the true info

[Pipeless416]

you can send my bonbons 2 day air if you'd like :p

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
you can send my bonbons 2 day air if you'd like :p I'm already on it,
will that be going to your folks house, where I'm sure I still have the address,.... or pm me your school address ??? :D :D :D

[gt400ex]

First off I want to say thanks to Ron for going out and doing this on his own time and money, Now we have hard numbers that will help people decide if it is a worthy mod or not. I picked up a used carb but had to buy a hot start, fuel line and cable new, I still only have a little over 100 into it. I finally got everything together tonight, its still not tunned in its just a rough start, but with all that I can now really hammer into it. The first time i got on it was just.... holy crap:eek2:

[odog]

i think that it was well worth it. simply because u have about 300 dollars or less tied up in the carb and some people have less than that and u gained almost 2hp. most slip on pipes wouldn't give u those results for a price thats simalir to that. even most full exhaust gives u less than 2hp peak. they just give u more in different rpm ranges and they cost about 450 and up. so i say that was a good investment. alot of people on the form says its worth it because of the much improve throttle response. oh yeah and i heard the fcr carbs are even better.;)

[tri5ron]

WOW!
My first sticky.
I'm not sure I am worthy,
I bow my head in honor, to the powers that be...... :D

[bigd's ex]

Come on Ron, surely this is'nt your first "Sticky" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Nice Job Pal, & THANK YOU !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :macho :macho

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by bigd's ex
Come on Ron, surely this is'nt your first "Sticky" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Haha! true that,....
it's just that this time, it dosen't make me feel as Diiiirrrrrtty :blah:

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
you can send my bonbons 2 day air if you'd like :p

Wait a minute!! :mad: I was only off by 0.3 HP!! I'll take those BonBons, thank you :muscle: :devil:

[aDviSol2y]

I think the worst part is now I have to convince my wife I need to buy a new carb!

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Wait a minute!! :mad: I was only off by 0.3 HP!! I'll take those BonBons, thank you :muscle: :devil:

dang! didn't see yours :( :blah:

[honda400ex2003]

Thanks for the time and money put into the 400 for the rest of us!!! you are da man Ron!!! steve

[odog]

Originally posted by honda400ex2003
Thanks for the time and money put into the 400 for the rest of us!!! you are da man Ron!!! steve x2

[F-16Guy]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
dang! didn't see yours :( :blah:
I thought maybe we were playing Price is Right rules, and I over-bid.

That was a pretty decent gain considering the mods he had. If you could get 3-5 hp out of a high compression big bore, it would make the 450R carb the best mod for the $$. It sounds like, if nothing else, you'd get better throttle response and a bit more power for less than $100, which is still hard to beat.

One thing I found interesting was the jetting. I kept reading about people using 190+ main jets and still thinking they were lean. I've always thought that there had to be a problem with those cases. No way would a +4mm carb require that kind of jetting. The fact that this carb was properly installed and dyno'd to low 160's jetting sounds much better. I'm thinking mid-to-high 160's, maybe low 170's for your run of the mill 416 because of the lower intake velocity and weaker vacuum signal. You'd have to have an ultra high compression 440 or a stroker to need much more than that.

tri5ron -- Thanks for the shootout! That really makes me want a 450R carb now. I've been mulling it over for a long time, but it's nice to see some real evidence, rather than just talk. Maybe if I see a good deal, I'll jump on it.

[mcwilly]

Ron, thanks for another great write-up and taking the time to do this! Very useful info!

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by F-16Guy

One thing I found interesting was the jetting. I kept reading about people using 190+ main jets and still thinking they were lean. I've always thought that there had to be a problem with those cases. No way would a +4mm carb require that kind of jetting. The fact that this carb was properly installed and dyno'd to low 160's jetting sounds much better. I'm thinking mid-to-high 160's, maybe low 170's for your run of the mill 416 because of the lower intake velocity and weaker vacuum signal. You'd have to have an ultra high compression 440 or a stroker to need much more than that.


exactly, my carb came with a 192 main in it.. i jetted all the way down to a 175 for my 11:1 416, hotcam stage 2, k&n with an open air box, and duals.

[Speedy 400ex]

glad i didn't waist my money on that.

[Pipeless416]

Originally posted by Speedy 400ex
glad i didn't waist my money on that.

as far as power goes, it IS the biggest bang for the buck that i have done. i think i have heard of one person saying they didn't feel an awesome gain.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
exactly, my carb came with a 192 main in it.. i jetted all the way down to a 175 for my 11:1 416, hotcam stage 2, k&n with an open air box, and duals.

I ran a 195 or 200 in my stroker with a 48 pilot on gasoline.

[Wheelie]

One thing I noticed after the carb install, and the dyno proves it, is the torque loss--especially in the low-mid range.

After the carb swap, my quad actually lost top-end speed in the sand when compared to the stocker, however it felt a lot better in the dirt due to the HP gain and quicker throttle response. Only after advancing the timing did I truly feel that the best of both worlds had been achieved.

This was after the stroker was installed.

[tri5ron]

Thanks for all the compliments guys, and I'm glad that this is useful information that can be used to help members decide if this is something they would want to do.

I just realized something, and it raised a question in my mind.

Noticing that the rear smoothie wheels they used during the dyno runs, ar about 2" taller than the front tires, that would put them at around 24" tall.
being that my actual rear tires are nearly 4" shorter (20"), do you feel that this could have a bearing on the "HP/Torque to the ground" readouts?

[smelly$cat]

If I had to guess, all of that info is entered into the dyno for it to take into account. Just an uneducated guess though.




Originally posted by tri5ron
Thanks for all the compliments guys, and I'm glad that this is useful information that can be used to help members decide if this is something they would want to do.

I just realized something, and it raised a question in my mind.

Noticing that the rear smoothie wheels they used during the dyno runs, ar about 2" taller than the front tires, that would put them at around 24" tall.
being that my actual rear tires are nearly 4" shorter (20"), do you feel that this could have a bearing on the "HP/Torque to the ground" readouts?

[buster024]

glad i didn't waist my money on that.

Have you even read the results? How many extra horsey's do you think your pipe got you? You want to talk about bang for your buck, I bet your pipe (if full system) cost you at least $400 or more.....and maybe 2-3 hp gain? Maybe? A new carb is like $60 bucks or something? And you pick up at least 1.5 hp? What's not to like?

[Snipe]

About $160 new. My full system cost me $150 on ebay.

One thing everyone should keep in mind is that all bikes are different. Your motor might respond worse or better to any mod not just this one.

I myself found myself at a loss with this mod. I lost power all the way around. When going back to stocker I gained it all back.

Jetting is anther thing as well. I am running what most would consider huge for my mods. I am at a 178 costume jet. With stock bore, open air box and full exhaust. Seems totally wierd I know but again all motors are different.

But its nice to see on paper that its not really that great for the crap to install it. at least with my $150 exhaust it bolted right on.

[F-16Guy]

Have you considered that maybe you have an air leak somewhere, and that's why you have to jet so rich? It may have also been the reason that the 450r carb didn't work for you. All engines may have very slight differences, but there is no way that the manufacturing tolerances would cause that much of a jetting disparity. You have a problem, and the rich jetting is just masking it.

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by F-16Guy
Have you considered that maybe you have an air leak somewhere, and that's why you have to jet so rich? It may have also been the reason that the 450r carb didn't work for you. All engines may have very slight differences, but there is no way that the manufacturing tolerances would cause that much of a jetting disparity. You have a problem, and the rich jetting is just masking it. I would have to agree with this. When I first did the mods to the 450r carb, I tried to save $25 bucks by making my own rubber plug for the hot start port.
I had read everything there was available on how to do the install.
Everything said the hot start had to be plugged, and a few references said to use a oem hot start plunger, but they never said WHY.
SO,... Me being the Genius that I am,.....
I said "Heck, for .40 cents, I'll make my own plug, to heck with $25 for a silly plunger that Is not even going to be functional".

Well, Mr. Brilliant here, spent the next 2 weeks trying to figure out why I could'nt get my idle down to a reasonable level.
I verified that I had no EXTERIOR air leaks, by running the quad, and spraying starting fluid all around the intake boot, my rubber plug, etc.

I tried adjusting everything possible, I changed jets, I turned AF screw, I was at my wits end.

Then a buddy of mine suggested that although I did have the hot start HOLE plugged,...the hot start PASSAGE, (at the bottom of the hole), was still venting.

Well ....DUH !!!
(did I mention my superior intelligence, and dazzeling mental capacities ???)

I removed my rubber plug, installed the oem hot start plunger, ...

(like it says to do, but now I know WHY you need to use the hot start plunger),...

And all is well.
problem solved.
Idle is where it sould be.

My point for telling this little story, is two fold,....

1-... I spent 2 weeks, battleing a problem, that I was SURE, did not exist....
That, (in actuality) I had created,....
AND,... it was causing ALL,... of my tuning problems !!!

and 2-... I had actually entered into the Carb Shootout Idea, thinking that I was going to disprove ANY, and ALL, Claims of improved performance, by the 450r carb, (when compared to a PROPERLY TUNED oem carb).

Well, I was wrong.
It IS a worthwhile mod,.... WHEN DONE CORRECTLY, PLUGGED CORRECTLY, AND TUNED CORRECTLY.

EVEN, on a basically STOCK 400ex engine.

Granted,
I only picked up 2hp.
but what were you expecting?? 200hp?????

The gains will be even greater than mine on a 416, 426, 440, with higher compression, and a higher flow cam.

ZRPilot and I, are working together to get some more detailed comparitive graphs, and readouts on my dyno run.
it should be interesting to see what we come up with.

Stay tuned in here....
(and keep your engines properly TUNED Too !)

[steve181]

Originally posted by Speedy 400ex
glad i didn't waist my money on that.

U waisted money on ur coffee can exhaust
why not spend $200 less and gain 3+ more hp than ur trash exhaust

i dont know when people will finally get the point that white brothers sounds like ****/ is one of the worst exhausts ( unless u want ur bike to sound like a tractor)

[tri5ron]

Originally posted by steve181
U waisted money on ur coffee can exhaust
why not spend $200 less and gain 3+ more hp than ur trash exhaust

i dont know when people will finally get the point that white brothers sounds like ****/ is one of the worst exhausts ( unless u want ur bike to sound like a tractor) I agree with the part being aftermarket exhausts are WAaaay overpriced for the small gains they give.

(Unfortunately, when we start doing other mods, it becomes necessary to get something with more flow than the oem muffler).

and I agree,...
(surprisingly, to me, and only because the dyno proved it),...
that the "Bang for your Buck" value, is greater with the carb upgrade, than it is with a exhaust upgrade.

BUT, PLEASE GUYS,....
PLEASE, don't turn this thread into a trash talking, equipment bashing, "my stuff is better than yours", type of thread.

We have FAR too many of those already.
I did this test, at my full cost, to provide actual results and comparitive figures.

the comparisons are not intended to cause a fight, or reason to start flaming anybody. Please realize and accept that.

ZR and I are also working to do some even MORE detailed and specific comparison's, of the runs that were made on the dyno, during this test.
Once I get the individual run graphs, we will be doing a more detailed study, of the recorded results.

I'm confident that there will be even MORE useful data that we can all use and benefit from, once we get that part done.

So PLEASE, keep it cool in this thread,
Have respect for each other,
and use the info provided here, to help you make your own engine run to the best of it's ability.

keep the smack talking in the other threads,
Thanks
Ron

[sc400ex_rider]

i got a brand new 05 carb off ebay for $60 shipped. i moved the airbox up 1/2" so i didnt need an adapter. i taped and plugged the hot start port inside the carb. i used 3/8 fuel line with a clamp on the tank end and put a spark plug in the carb end over night to flair it out. i bought a yfz450 throttle cable for $15. so im sure i dont have $100 in the whole thing. :D :D

[Snipe]

I have to agree I have thought about a air leak. I did the 450R carb swap to spec it just didnt work on my bike, After a few months of tuning and several dollar in jets later lol I got tired of it.

For my OEM carb I have thought about air leaks but cant find anything. Usually when you have a air leak it backfires in the intake or sounds like it anyway, nothing there. Everything is tight have checked it twice. Now running open airbox. The 178 just clicked with it.

[Punkmaster Flex]

Originally posted by Pipeless416
i think i have heard of one person saying they didn't feel an awesome gain. [/B]

That's cause people need a lot of NOISE to think they gain something. Just look into Curtis pipes, they dont produce more HP than Dasas or HMFs, but they sound so loud that people think their quads are a lot more powerful... :rolleyes:

[Which 450?]

Originally posted by Punkmaster Flex
That's cause people need a lot of NOISE to think they gain something. Just look into Curtis pipes, they dont produce more HP than Dasas or HMFs, but they sound so loud that people think their quads are a lot more powerful... :rolleyes:

I agree with that 100%!

[wrekd]

Originally posted by martnmx288
Was that an 04/05 450R carb or a 06+ FCR?


x2...That would help out some people (me included :D ) on what year carb to buy.

[tri5ron]

I used a '04-'05 carb, and did all the recommended mods to the carb, (adapter, H/S plunger plug, moved vent line, etc.).

[wrekd]

Cool, thanks.

1 other thing. I was on Ebay last night looking for carbs. I found an 05 but it had wires of some sort coming off of it. I read ZR's install thread and it didn't say anything about wires. Do they all come with wires?? Or do I look for one without them?? I know theres a hot start cable, but it looked like electrical connectors??

[DirtyTitan]

There is a 450 carb on ebay that some guy was using on his 400. jetted and ready to go

[gt400ex]

Originally posted by wrekd
Cool, thanks.

1 other thing. I was on Ebay last night looking for carbs. I found an 05 but it had wires of some sort coming off of it. I read ZR's install thread and it didn't say anything about wires. Do they all come with wires?? Or do I look for one without them?? I know theres a hot start cable, but it looked like electrical connectors??


Dont worry about the wires,they all have them, there is a TPS connector on the side and if the carb comes with it a heater on the bottom. you can take the heater off to get out of the way and just cut or tie the TPS wires out of the way.

[zrpilot]

For Tri5Ron:

This graph shows the difference of a 450R carb vs. Stock

[tri5ron]

Thanks ZR !

[bkelley]

2 HP gain is nothing to scoff at. Especially since you can get a 450r carb off eBay for pretty cheap.

[childert79]

Which is better? 04-05 trx450r carb or edelbrock?

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by childert79
Which is better? or edelbrock? 04-05 trx450r carb

[childert79]

Ok. Thanks ZR. If you're still making adaptors can you pm me your paypal

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by childert79
Ok. Thanks ZR. If you're still making adaptors can you pm me your paypal

nope, Sorry see the last post

450R adapters (http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=425101)

[CRE Performance]

I have one for sale if needed.

Stock 05 carb, boyson acc. pump. Works well. $100 OBO
http://i281.photobucket.com/albums/kk233/s-cloer/P1010024.jpg

[Xplorer99]

Originally posted by zrpilot
04-05 trx450r carb

whats the difference in the edelbrock and the 450r carb? im builing my 440 11:1 stage2 HC was planning on getting the 440 edelbrock carb. any thoughts?

[zrpilot]

Originally posted by Xplorer99
whats the difference in the edelbrock and the 450r carb? im builing my 440 11:1 stage2 HC was planning on getting the 440 edelbrock carb. any thoughts? The 450R carb is the best bang for the buck, easiest to tune, most widely used carb upgrade for the 400EX. It will work on a stock motor and allow the rider to grow into more mods and not have to change the carb.

I would do it again on my 400EX!

Meanwhile the FCR (I know, I had one) is MUCH more expensive, MUCH harder to tune, and just not cost effective for the hassle and performance gains, in my opinion.

And lastly the Edlebrock has proven to be the least popular of the three. I think this is due the to difficulty tuning, the price, and the performance.

[Xplorer99]

ya iv been reading for a couple hours now and i think ill go with the 450R carb, $160 new isnt bad either... thanks for the info

[muddy maki]

i was wondering about this!
looks like this mod may actualy be worth doing with my 440 rebuild, with stage 2 hot cam, and slip on exhaust.