View Full Version : Whos broken what, frames, riv-nuts?
xrxmxcx
08-27-2009, 12:19 PM
Just want to ask how everyone is doing with their frames and if anyone has had to make any replacements?
ds450racer
08-27-2009, 01:30 PM
I snapped the front of a frame. Just above the two rivvets that are above where the top a arms bolt in. We just replaced the pieces of frame that go in there and re rivveted it.
blaster99
08-27-2009, 07:27 PM
well, walsh obviously sees a need for this....
http://www.walshracecraft.com/#/can-am-ds-450/4532399489
My frame has held up very well.
LTR450_#67
08-27-2009, 09:01 PM
Wow, I can buy a new LTR frame for less than that! I was starting to be a fan of the Can-Ams but that just changed my mind.
ProspectorJim
08-27-2009, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by LTR450_#67
Wow, I can buy a new LTR frame for less than that! I was starting to be a fan of the Can-Ams but that just changed my mind.
Its a Walsh part, you expect it to be cheap?
I believe the YFZr uses 4130 in this area, but as I was trying to point out with engine components in the “waterless coolant” thread, aluminum can be heat treated to gain some of the same mechanical properties as steel. You can take pure aluminum that is weaker(less than half the density) than carbon steels and anneal it, quench it, cold work it, artificially age, temper, etc to gain the desired properties. In this cases Walsh is soliciting “flexure” or “bending” is the proper term, since I heard the 08 frames (some) had that issue at the pro level.
Walsh has not seen the 09 heat treats nor have I heard of frame flex in the 09 market. What they have also done is induced hard points at the lower frame which could result in frame cracks at other locations over time. If I wore my lower frame I would not try and redesign the entire frame but adopting steel into the mix, remember BRP has designed this frame on a computer (NASTRAN) and tested it, Walsh did not take that model add a lwr steel frame to it and look at all the reactions (stress, strain, cracks, fatigue, compression, tension, shear) on the entire frame, they are just guessing! If my frame flexes which I seriously doubt, I’ll stay with aluminum 2024-T6 maybe gage it up .010-.015 which would cost less than $100 and hopefully not change the load paths on the rest of the frame or alter weight (CG) drastically.
Stripped 2 riv-nuts hate those things!
:blah: :mad:
LTR450_#67
08-27-2009, 10:45 PM
Walsh doesn't just guess at their work.......
I'm not going to argue that if you had ever run a nastran model as I have you'd know better. First they need the model from BRP or develop it(next to impossible without drawing's), then they have to run the analysis, then they have to set up stress strain gages on the quad, test it, go back to the model and verify it, then go test many more times then after years of that like BRP did they'd "show thier model good" and go into production at which time they would have to try and recapture all the R&D cost(BRP can since they mass produce, Walsh did not and won't sell enouugh to put that kind of R&D money into it)..thats how you do it right and if you're lucky in year one you got no problems, anything less like I said a guess but ok I won't debate it w/ya think what ya want. :D
You guy's keep me on my toes. :D
Pappy
08-27-2009, 11:26 PM
By replacing the lower portion of the frame with a steardy 4130 chromoly construction we have limited frame flex, in turn redusing the risk of breaking cases and frames.
Sorry, I couldnt resist:p
http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk191/Terrylport/797px-Nastran_strut.jpg
This is Nastran or Pactran, see all those "nodes", as a result of all the loads from MX or XC(what ever the load case is) the internal stress on any part can be determined. So if you add steel to the lower frame and lets say this part is on the upper frame the nodes on this part or stress will change. Alot goes into frame design, the OEM's don't just throw some 4130 they got in the back shop weld it up, press in some threaded inserts and call it good then feild test it.
Once BRP has this model developed they go run some test with stress/strain gages that validate the model or not, if not back to the drawing board and many times once the frame is released to the dealers some tweeking is still needed as in the 09. :D
BTW take note of the high stress at the bend on this part. Look at the colors on the right, the numbers(stress) like red gets high now look at where the red is on the part.
LTR450_#67
08-28-2009, 12:01 AM
I understand most of what you're saying TNT. I undoubtedly don't have the degrees and engineering background as I have just a HS diploma with plenty of ignorance. I'm just saying I would assume Walsh has some sort of chassis dyno or pacman machine to test their products.... They make great quality parts I'm sure many would agree. I guess some things work and some don't.
Ok I was just trying to help you(and others) understand this a little better. I'm not saying Walsh is bad or even wrong with the lwr frame design, it's hit a miss, thats why you see alot of these arm companies that cause problems on the frame or don't. The OEM like BRP allows for some what they call "Margin" or "Factor of Saftey", or in simple terms they pad things up a little ok....thats where Walsh, etc envelope is if you will is they can sometimes get away with things like this due to those margins.
Ok sorry we got off topic a little......:)
xrxmxcx
08-28-2009, 05:45 AM
I will be running the WalshRC lower frame portion on my bikes in 09'. I have been through 2 frame sections this season, going on #3.
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I will be running the WalshRC lower frame portion on my bikes in 09'. I have been through 2 frame sections this season, going on #3.
When you say bikes you mean your 09 DS quad?
Foxstar45
08-28-2009, 09:23 AM
Did they beef up the frame some for 2009?
It's hard to say Foxstar, beefing up can occur in many ways...By thickness or lets say the frame in failing in bending there are heat treats to help that.
If anyone has an 09 frame that is bent or failed please post some pics, I'd like to see how it failed.
I have not heard of enough pro frame problems to belive there are issues other than isolated and it makes me beleive there were improvements in 09 and there will probably be improvements in 2010. Problem is when you make improvements, change the model, test them sometimes the only way to validate them is have a bunch of pro's go test it with all the different load cases(tracks, riding styles) from all those different riders. That NASTRAN Model is only as good as the loads that are put into them that can be difficult to capture. That happens in auto and other industries too, thats why you see on going design changes.
Another problem after market companies face is there could be a BRP revision in work while they producing products like a lower frame section that does not work with the BRP revision.
LTR450_#67
08-28-2009, 10:22 AM
Thanks TNT I understand what you said much better and now it makes more sense to me!
xrxmxcx
08-28-2009, 10:40 AM
I hate to say it but you guys are way over thinking this. I agree that the strength can be increased of the aluminum but at the end of the day it is still aluminum.
The problem I am having is with any horizontal force the frame has a weak point just behind the lower rear a-arm mount where the belly-pan meats the front section. The 09's are the same design and the same material from what it appears.
I have two sitting here from different conditions, one a every day roll over,the other one from a flat landing.
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I hate to say it but you guys are way over thinking this. I agree that the strength can be increased of the aluminum but at the end of the day it is still aluminum.
The problem I am having is with any horizontal force the frame has a weak point just behind the lower rear a-arm mount where the belly-pan meats the front section. The 09's are the same design and the same material from what it appears.
I have two sitting here from different conditions, one a every day roll over,the other one from a flat landing.
Please post some pics?
Originally posted by LTR450_#67
Thanks TNT I understand what you said much better and now it makes more sense to me!
Glad you learned something...don't you wish they taught this way in HS, on something you enjoy learning about. :D
LTR450_#67
08-28-2009, 12:08 PM
Yeah considering I operate CNC mills (6 years now) . I've learned everything from hands on.....the best way to learn IMO.
How can having the main mounting base (the bottom frame portion on the DS) be stronger and still be a bad idea? That part of the frame takes the most of the beating (bottom outs/casing, flat landing). Plus you have the torsional load in the corners (the main issue?) I understand that the frame should work as one piece but it seems to me thats not working well enough creating flex/twisting. With the Walsh piece it seems to me their frame portion resists the load....
IMO plain and simple Can-Am needs to build it a touch heavier or stronger, they have similar issues with thier BRP REV XP chassis snowmobiles.
Blah
xrxmxcx
08-28-2009, 12:33 PM
TNT post your email.
LTR, I agree with you and after working on these bikes for a year and going through a couple of frames seeing what happens it leaves me to think that the Walsh piece is a cure to the problem.
I dont know how many of you have done a complete frame swap on the DS, it's no fun between race weekends.
I will be using the Walsh pan and in theory if it stops the frame break it will be worth it in labor time alone. If the frame fails afterwards then so be it, but I wont have to disassemble the entire bike, just replace the broken component! Walsh noted that the only part they saw having failure was the one they are replacing!
I am not sure of anyone else's situation, but I have enough Can-am frames/parts to have every component for the frame x2 so with a Walsh pan it will give me a good feeling that I can just replace the piece, and not have to pull the motor!
On to another note..
Frame flexure has shown to be a problem as far as the engine cases suffering cracks mostly around the pivot area, so killing 2 birds with 1 stone, knowing that the motor cannot flex in the frame under stress destroying the cases, and saving the frame is enough for me...
can-am67
08-28-2009, 02:14 PM
well the only thing i seem to manage to brake is the bottom end of the motors i bought a can am epic race bike from last year and destroyed the bottom end at the beggining of the race season ended up buying a hole brand new ds from dealer cause could not get engine cases until the end of june well now i went to change my oil today and put a new clutch in and found a chunk of bearing on the mangetic oil plug in the engine so motor number to basicly gone and still got 3 weekends left of racing
i have not broke the engine cases from flexing just the crank bearing keep failing apart both time using the same oil bellray thumper 20w 50 maybe i am running the wrong oil but ran it in my yamahas and never had a problem
How can having the main mounting base (the bottom frame portion on the DS) be stronger and still be a bad idea? That part of the frame takes the most of the beating (bottom outs/casing, flat landing). Plus you have the torsional load in the corners (the main issue?)….
TNT - Last I heard from the EPIC team they though it was the area behind the lower a-arm as XRX stated and had offered a member there and the quad was saging in the vertical direction bending affecting ride height in that plane, not torsion from corner’s. These quads don’t see a lot of g-loads like aircraft in a dive, lol, it’s more bending in the vertical direction. More so from uneven landing’s of BIG jumps, whoops, etc……
I understand that the frame should work as one piece but it seems to me thats not working well enough creating flex/twisting. With the Walsh piece it seems to me their frame portion resists the load....
IMO plain and simple Can-Am needs to build it a touch heavier or stronger, they have similar issues with thier BRP REV XP chassis snowmobiles.
TNT- Who’s to say without the proper analysis and your right BRP has the tools to do it properly, but to think one can take out flex locally at the bottom is wrong!! Flex occurs everywhere if you take out the bottom it will throw more to the top (for a basic analogy picture a box).. Putting a lower steel frame in to solve the issues is easy and would cost BRP’s production line very little, just like YFZr which has issues, it would have happen in 2009 and not cost $1200 per unit more like $50 if it were the simple solution. I am sure they are no dummies and would make the change after two years of in service test.
TNT post your email.
TNT – Terrylport@yahoo.com Thanks!
LTR, I agree with you and after working on these bikes for a year and going through a couple of frames seeing what happens it leaves me to think that the Walsh piece is a cure to the problem.
TNT - I have 4 bent YFZ gusted steel frames at home, if I were there I’d take some pic’s and post them. Al, steel, ti, it don’t matter they ALL have issues. Just be careful when you mix that’s tricky! Disimular metal corrosion and failure is another issue we fight all the time.
I dont know how many of you have done a complete frame swap on the DS, it's no fun between race weekends.
TNT – yeah I bet that would suck!
I will be using the Walsh pan and in theory if it stops the frame break it will be worth it in labor time alone. If the frame fails afterwards then so be it, but I wont have to disassemble the entire bike, just replace the broken component! Walsh noted that the only part they saw having failure was the one they are replacing!
TNT – Well mine and many more have taken a lot of abuse no probs so far knock on wood, you can try it that’s all you can do but if it cracks your frame somewhere else you’ll be out $1200 plus the cost of another frame. You could come up with something better for a lot less money send me pics I’ll see what I can do to help if you want the help. I have a lot of other very talented engineers and mechanics for more opinions, oh and for you LTR the most advance NC machine/operator’s in the world sitting right next me at work. ;)
I am not sure of anyone else's situation, but I have enough Can-am frames/parts to have every component for the frame x2 so with a Walsh pan it will give me a good feeling that I can just replace the piece, and not have to pull the motor!
TNT – Really you’re the first I heard of even the pro’s don’t go through them at your rate, Wow!
On to another note..
Frame flexure has shown to be a problem as far as the engine cases suffering cracks mostly around the pivot area, so killing 2 birds with 1 stone, knowing that the motor cannot flex in the frame under stress destroying the cases, and saving the frame is enough for me...
TNT – Actually the motor does flex (all metals do when they hot/cold) a large portion of the load on the frame is induced by the engine(it the biggest local weight/load)…… Again ours has had a lot of abuse no issues this is the first I heard of it. Sounds like issues with the engine case design including the mount locally not the lower frame.
Good questions and thoughts here guy's....:D
xrxmxcx
08-29-2009, 10:38 AM
TNT, I agree with the fact that the design can be improved upon with refinements from BRP in their R&D.
Around these parts I have some good connections and have been able to talk to factory R&D and aftersales staff about problems we have run into as Can-am is a big roller in NEATV-MX, and it shows with staff at the track...
From what I have gathered the frame has seen a couple of refinements such as hardware and mounts but no portions have been changed due to there not bieng a high number of failures, and Can-am has approached me for detailed information as to what happened to mine (much like they did with you TNT on your motor build).
I’ll be honest my biggest worry on the frame is the lower AL skid plate tried some tuff liner but it scraped off; I just don’t see AL taking it that well. You can’t adjust ride height to prevent it since some jumps you bottom the frame regardless. I am referring to the compression-impact from rocks and cracks that propagated from skids, not torsion, "flex", or frame twist. Steel in my experience doesn’t do a whole lot better. If they could keep the cost down suggest look at composites with an outer layer of Kevlar common to the ground and a fiberglass isolation ply common to the aluminum frame to keep corrosion down. That Kevlar is super strong stuff 5x stronger than steel for the same weight….have them consult their aircraft division on its use. Incorporate in 2010 design along with something to take out bending. Mark my words carbon fiber composites are the future. Who knows maybe someone is reading this from BRP but I can’t even imagine I am telling them something they don’t already know after all Bombardiers makes some of the bis-jets in the world…..Sorry Walsh my faith is in them. :D
Gosh if I thought I could make as much $ designing quads I'd rather do that but theres no way!
PS: We’re back on the dyno today with a new coolant temp sensor and PC-5, test SX race tonight, we’ll see what happens! :D
xrxmxcx
08-29-2009, 07:02 PM
Honestly if you are running the DS without some sort of frame skid I would recommend getting something atleast...
I am not concerned with impact resistance as very few failures happen with bottom out when load is applied equally through the bottom of the quad, even if rocks scratch, etc... (that's what the skid is for)
I am 99.99% sure I will be running the Walsh on the new build and the rest of their components. It doesn't show to affect the frame in any negative ways and does work with the same theory that BRP implied when developing this chassis. Everything is the same and the pyrimidal design is still present and if anything the Walsh is a step in the right direction for any 08/09 bike. Only thing the original game plan in BRP's mind that they didn't foresee was the side to side flex, and eventual failure.
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Honestly if you are running the DS without some sort of frame skid I would recommend getting something atleast...
I am not concerned with impact resistance as very few failures happen with bottom out when load is applied equally through the bottom of the quad, even if rocks scratch, etc... (that's what the skid is for)
I am 99.99% sure I will be running the Walsh on the new build and the rest of their components. It doesn't show to affect the frame in any negative ways and does work with the same theory that BRP implied when developing this chassis. Everything is the same and the pyrimidal design is still present and if anything the Walsh is a step in the right direction for any 08/09 bike. Only thing the original game plan in BRP's mind that they didn't foresee was the side to side flex, and eventual failure.
I still have not seen any photo's of you're failures(2 frames). I am sorry I don't mean to call a spaid a spaid but untill you send me some photos I will not waste anymore time with this.....My email address is Terrylport@yahoo.com Thx, Terry
Or post them out here there is nothing to hide......
xrxmxcx
08-29-2009, 10:12 PM
Calling me out? Alright buddy....
You've got mail!
ngarbe561
08-29-2009, 11:47 PM
i broke the wishbone section up by the radaiator witch is caused but a hit to the bars so its not even common
motomadnesam
08-30-2009, 12:15 AM
I think that if can am thickened all of the extrusions on the frame, then most of the problems would disappear. The weight gain would be minimal. Also It would be easy for the company to redesign most of these pieces of the frame and it wouldn't cost them too much for the re-design of the frame...I think lol.
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
Calling me out? Alright buddy....
You've got mail!
Got the pics thx....All I got say right now is WOW! :rolleyes:
What did you do crash? :confused: Looks like a lot of side load more than the design could handle??
No I was not calling you out just wanted to see how it was bending before I said anymore.
Let me look at it a little more be back with some comments that might help others while at the same time keeping the privacy you seem to want. :D
rollie
08-30-2009, 06:46 PM
the latest frame bent from this crash.
The crash is at :22 seconds
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Blizzard24
08-30-2009, 06:55 PM
I can see why that frame would have bent... any frame would have been trashed after that wreck, glad to see you didnt get hurt man.
craigmacphee
08-30-2009, 08:17 PM
I have not had any frame issues, but I have had my nerf bars on my factory X MX break where they mount to my frame just under the seat. Both mounting brackets broke. (one on each side) I did not roll over or get hit, or anything, but I DO remember coming up short on a little step up and I bounced off the top of it. That is the only thing I can think of that would have caused it. But....it did not break on that ride or even that day. SOMETHING must have flexed somewhere to have caused that, and I am sure it was me that caused it, but to answer your original question, that is what I broke on mine so far. And...I'm thinking it had something to do with the frame flexing somewhere. maybe not....any thoughts?
Well crash loads are real and interesting we actually design aircraft to a 9G crash load(no way a quad sees that), but we are talking about a lot of lives here. I think the quad industry should design to them, I'm not sure they do but they should.
Heres the deal with corrosion, and I am not going to get too deep into it since it's a little off topic, but if you take disimular metals and put them in the same proximity there is a cathode/anode reaction like a battery. The amount depends on the distant apart, so if you were to take 4130 steel and 2024-T3 or T6(which is what I beleive the DS frame is made of) and put them lets say 5 inches apart they will corrode in time. If you put them in contact that will accelerate it. When we put steel and AL together we chemically covert both pieces with a minimum of a passivated coating, better to plate w/cadium(sp), or the steel with an AL pigment coating. Just priming and painting between the two does nothing! Just FYI what to look for. :D
xrxmxcx
08-30-2009, 09:38 PM
I know your right with the corrosion (I work in the marine trades industry and we deal with it 24/7) but this isn't airplane's and severe tolerances. I value your information and it is all valid, but if this is the case you better start coating your engine mounts, all bearings, pivot points etc. Look at most of the aftermarket parts on the bike after all.
On the other hand I don't see that it would be a factor in the use of this product.
xrxmxcx
08-30-2009, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Blizzard24
I can see why that frame would have bent... any frame would have been trashed after that wreck, glad to see you didnt get hurt man.
The sad part is the frame from this incident was less damaged than the previous. It took most of the force through the travel of the front shock, and the front loop was damaged due to the extreme compression, intern damaging the radiator as well.
The pictures I provided TNT with would better illustrate that and I'm sure when he reads this he will understand that as well.
Nevertheless for the frame taking that sort of punishment and not severly failing is impressive, but that's besides the point
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
The sad part is the frame from this incident was less damaged than the previous. It took most of the force through the travel of the front shock, and the front loop was damaged due to the extreme compression, intern damaging the radiator as well.
The pictures I provided TNT with would better illustrate that and I'm sure when he reads this he will understand that as well.
Nevertheless for the frame taking that sort of punishment and not severly failing is impressive, but that's besides the point
I’m not sure what happen to your frame but after seeing your pics the load I am seeing looked highly unusual and since I don’t see a lot of others that own 09 including us along with other fast racers that have had issues, I am concluding the frame is a good design for most amature racers and your case is isolated. Good luck with the walsh! :D
BTW: The biggest load should be at the bolt lower arm not the shock from there how it gets reacted depends on the design, the shock is just there to dampen the load not transfer it. I don't have a quad with me to see the load path. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I know your right with the corrosion (I work in the marine trades industry and we deal with it 24/7) but this isn't airplane's and severe tolerances. I value your information and it is all valid, but if this is the case you better start coating your engine mounts, all bearings, pivot points etc. Look at most of the aftermarket parts on the bike after all.
On the other hand I don't see that it would be a factor in the use of this product.
Tolerances have nothing to do with corrosive failure, that type of failure does not care about tolerances it errodes all tolerances big and small, aircraft, quad, auto the same amount. The aluminum and steel you mentioned does have a protective coating and that depends on the alloy composition. I would be highly concerned about this as I would an automobile, look at the SAE specs they have to comply to in the US, how much depends on how much moisture you subject your quad too. IF you ask Walsh they probably have a conversion coating or pigment big companies like that is not what I was referring to, why take chances in racing you need all the protection and fail safe you can get, racing a quad is more dangerous than riding on a airplane. :D
Originally posted by motomadnesam
I think that if can am thickened all of the extrusions on the frame, then most of the problems would disappear. The weight gain would be minimal. Also It would be easy for the company to redesign most of these pieces of the frame and it wouldn't cost them too much for the re-design of the frame...I think lol.
They need to thicken certain areas especially where bolt holes are since if you look at the cross-section alot is lost that the bolt does not account for. Problem with the extrusion is since they are rammed through a die thickness cannot vary..... It could be machined but long runs of extrusions don't show worth machining 90% away. In some areas if BRP is to stay with an Alum frame that will sustain advanced MX/XC loads a casting may be required or a billet machine part is much stronger, some sections may need to be replaced or the advanced racer may need to add some doublers themselves. Great thing about grapite is the fibers can be orientated to get the desired property locally(compression, shear, fatigue, etc) and the thickness can easily be changed by adding and removing ply's, but they are expensive.
I noticed the YFZr uses alot of castiing's but an extrusion in most cases is stronger than a casting.
It's not easy at all structural design.
craigmacphee
08-31-2009, 07:10 PM
TNT....with you being in the aircraft business, have you ever seen any reports where the air force (or gov't) did tests on the effects of using simple green on aircraft parts to clean them and it actually chemically weakened the metals. My cousin told me of this some 10 or so years ago but I kind of blew it off because I figured I never owned anything long enough to worry about it.
xrxmxcx
08-31-2009, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by TNT
Tolerances have nothing to do with corrosive failure, that type of failure does not care about tolerances it errodes all tolerances big and small, aircraft, quad, auto the same amount. The aluminum and steel you mentioned does have a protective coating and that depends on the alloy composition. I would be highly concerned about this as I would an automobile, look at the SAE specs they have to comply to in the US, how much depends on how much moisture you subject your quad too. IF you ask Walsh they probably have a conversion coating or pigment big companies like that is not what I was referring to, why take chances in racing you need all the protection and fail safe you can get, racing a quad is more dangerous than riding on a airplane. :D
I am sure OEM has to conform to certain regulations, etc..
..but let's think about this for a second. Say Joe Blow is building an oval track car and making a chassis, is the first thing on his mind frame corrosion? Sorry but it isn't a big deal in motor sports as everything is coated, and if it rusts then it rusts. I have a feeling if you asked Walsh about frame corrosion due to 2 metals touching each other in the vicinity of a battery they would look at you like you had two heads.
Sounds like making unnecessary work...
Blizzard24
09-01-2009, 08:31 AM
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I am sure OEM has to conform to certain regulations, etc..
..but let's think about this for a second. Say Joe Blow is building an oval track car and making a chassis, is the first thing on his mind frame corrosion? Sorry but it isn't a big deal in motor sports as everything is coated, and if it rusts then it rusts. I have a feeling if you asked Walsh about frame corrosion due to 2 metals touching each other in the vicinity of a battery they would look at you like you had two heads.
Sounds like making unnecessary work...
I have to agree with you man. Maybe over decades of use this may be a factor but even looking at the 80's quads that are still around, this is a non issue. An aluminum engine case has steel sleeved crank bearings under load the entire life of the engine yet there isnt much failer to the journals unless something happens to the crank or bearing itself.
Frames are mated to aluminum, heck even our DS450's foot pegs are stainless pegs mounted to cast aluminum.
I am not doubting this occurs Terry, I just dont think this is an issue for these applications.
Originally posted by xrxmxcx
I am sure OEM has to conform to certain regulations, etc..
..but let's think about this for a second. Say Joe Blow is building an oval track car and making a chassis, is the first thing on his mind frame corrosion? Sorry but it isn't a big deal in motor sports as everything is coated, and if it rusts then it rusts. I have a feeling if you asked Walsh about frame corrosion due to 2 metals touching each other in the vicinity of a battery they would look at you like you had two heads.
Sounds like making unnecessary work...
Originally posted by Blizzard24
I have to agree with you man. Maybe over decades of use this may be a factor but even looking at the 80's quads that are still around, this is a non issue. An aluminum engine case has steel sleeved crank bearings under load the entire life of the engine yet there isnt much failer to the journals unless something happens to the crank or bearing itself.
Frames are mated to aluminum, heck even our DS450's foot pegs are stainless pegs mounted to cast aluminum.
I am not doubting this occurs Terry, I just dont think this is an issue for these applications.
If you’re assembling a car or quad most of what you buy should be protected but if you’re designing then yes it will be up there on your priority list the finish plays a HUGE role. We have Engineer’s called Material and Process Engineer’s that companies ( aircraft, auto, motorsports) pay to sit around and study it.
I guess I wasn’t clear, I was not saying the material had to be in the proximity of batteries to corrode, I was using the battery (cathode +)/anode -) with an electrolyte solution between them to portrait what happens when two dissimilar metals get in the proximity of each other, an electric circuit is set up (+/-). The cad plating Al/4130 and AL pigment 4130 finishes also provide a better more uniform wear surface and protect two materials of different densities and Rockwell hardness number from gualling each other, so I disagree with you both this protection is vital to the life cycle of mating dissimilar metals. I have taken arms apart and seen the corrosion and accelerated wear within a 1 yr time frame. I just provided the info as FYI, hope a few learned something from it and are more aware when selecting products, good thread questions and comments do with it as you wish.
Craig I doubt Simple Green hurts any of the more common metal finishes, we use commercial grade isopropyl alcohol for metal/composites.
Maybe the race teams should consider a structural mod kit for the more advanced racers that push this frame beyond its design limits or that want added protection against a crash. Again they are much better informed with the right tools and resources to do it properly especially now with two years of field info. :D
Racers Dad 37
12-18-2009, 06:24 AM
TNT you making it out like XRXMXCX was trying to hide something on the other frame thread anyone can read this and see this is NOT the case.
You say he did not reply to you about the crash when ROLLIES posted right after you asked a video of it did this not give you your answer?
He never said the frame just broke or was from light racing (what is that?),never bashed Can Am,never post any photos even when you asked for them he asked you not to post.
He never stated he broke his ankle in the crash that ended his season
Maybe I can get Warranty for his mother for the ankle failing LOL!
The thread was a question to get info. to see what we could do and we did make some changes.
Still feel Can Am DS450 is the Best quad with the best Support so much so that we now have 2
ScottB125
12-18-2009, 09:00 AM
I haven't seen any issues with mine, but I'm your average Joe.
You guys keep talking of the Walsh frame gussets, any pics of it?
Originally posted by Racers Dad 37
TNT you making it out like XRXMXCX was trying to hide something on the other frame thread anyone can read this and see this is NOT the case.
You say he did not reply to you about the crash when ROLLIES posted right after you asked a video of it did this not give you your answer?
He never said the frame just broke or was from light racing (what is that?),never bashed Can Am,never post any photos even when you asked for them he asked you not to post.
He never stated he broke his ankle in the crash that ended his season
Maybe I can get Warranty for his mother for the ankle failing LOL!
The thread was a question to get info. to see what we could do and we did make some changes.
Still feel Can Am DS450 is the Best quad with the best Support so much so that we now have 2
I’ve watched your post and I’m convinced you have some affiliation with BRP or the industry or XRX, you seem to know more about the product than most and when it has not been made public. Common now reveal yourself! Lol! I have none and am out here on my own time to support owners primarily and BRP and thier race teams anyway I can. I hope some of the info I provide, right, wrong, or indifferent is usefull to someone. I do this on my own time recieve no compensation since I enjoy it! XRX is a good kid if you are his dad :)
I’m not going into any more of my private dialog w/XRX other than what I stated to be the truth, I don’t want to be concieved as a person that betrays someones trust and confidentiality although I realize I have let the cat out of the bag at times to illustrate a point or bring something to someones attention. I will say that I have witnessed his post comments on many occasions that appear to be blamming owners for every frame failure or in my case axle failure when he lacks any substanstial fact, assuming that they had to have abused or crashed thier quad for there to be a frame failure or issue with the design. Well thats simply not the case, and I have stated many cases and structural facts along with pics from people with non-crash related reports that proove behond any resonable doubt that this frame has weak areas period! XRX and others might say that “The race team does not see these failures” and illude once again to there is “no need to worry or be concerned”, but as I stated in the other thread and I am sorry ,but when I see several cases of hi-locs failing frame cross sections over the course of a year it’s not the “owners fault” the life cycle of this frame is short!
If it is true as TPR stated in the other thread that BRP designed this frame to the torque of a 250 two stroke motor then that would explain why we see failures. I would hope not since that is not what I seen in the initial sales video on how this quad was designed. Why? Because the motor is a large portion of the quads distributed mass, that mass will distribute large bending moments on frame members that are a large distances away from the motor such as the area surrounding the front shocks in transferse torque, and axle that both appear to lack strength and cross section. I believe that to be true for the hollow axle too, I’m sorry I have seen too many failures there from normal use. Our Dom 2 would never have failed the jump that recently bent the stock DS axle, the DOM 2 has seen 100 times more cyclic load over the course of 3 years, the DS axle has seen about 60 hours under much smaller AX loads.
My son and I discussed this last night and I made him aware of the frame issues and although I want to back out of investing anymore money into the DS he LOVES the quad and the way it handles, so we have decided to take the risk keep investing in the quad which means BRP, Motoworks, and BCS will see more of my hard earned dollar. As I stated before, the frame is the best in the industry imo opinion due to the type of extruded design, but that does not negate the fact that I had to add 4-lbs to the axle and will have to add more weight to the frame in gussets and essentially compromise the CG and handling characteristics of the quad, the feature we all admire most. I will say the failures are not on primary frame structure which is good, just secondary and easily resolved.
XRX: Sorry to hear about your injury hope you healed up well and good luck in 2010.
Originally posted by ScottB125
I haven't seen any issues with mine, but I'm your average Joe.
You guys keep talking of the Walsh frame gussets, any pics of it?
Yeah I’d like to know who all makes frame kits too. I know of BCS, ATV4play a fitting for the front, doesn’t BRP make one? Walsh makes one? Guess I lost track but I’m getting one need to do some research.
We're @ an AX this weekend in Claremore, OK lets hope the frame holds up so Trever can put the DS in front of the Pro class. :D
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