Puma for MX... will it hold up?

[Derrick Adams]

I need some advise from some Puma owners/ builders. Can some one point me in the right direction? We are wanting to build a 430 to run nationals next year.

Will this engine hold up under MX abuse? What steps do we need to take for durability and what is prone to failure?

[Honda 250r 001]

ive never ran a puma,

but i would say that would be the least likely place for it to hold together. The tacky dirt of a mx track will tear up your tranny. You should atleast get the stockers cryoed. imo.

Your going to need a hell of a clutch too.

[Ruf Racing]

Wouldn't that be too much motor for the dirt tracks?
:ermm:

[Derrick Adams]

We were planning on the Yukon gear set. Thanks for the input.

We run a 330 now and it's more than managable.

[atvmxr]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
Wouldn't that be too much motor for the dirt tracks?
:ermm:

blasphemy

:macho

[tt racer]

Ive done some research on these pumas alot of money to be spent on upgrades to keep them reliable. They seem to be more of a duner and tt motor than anything. I want one for myself for flattrack:devil:

[thedeatons]

There is a large amount of info (posts) on the other forum about them. I would ask there.

t r x 2 5 0 r . n e t

[Ruf Racing]

Originally posted by atvmxr
blasphemy

:macho

Hey don't get me wrong, I like mucho :muscle: power like the next guy. And I don't race MX. But I hear guys talking about managable power. Puma's are some badass power!:D
James is right, the guys on the net are running quite a few
Pumas.

[redred55]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I need some advise from some Puma owners/ builders. Can some one point me in the right direction? We are wanting to build a 430 to run nationals next year.

Will this engine hold up under MX abuse? What steps do we need to take for durability and what is prone to failure?

My MX Puma 431 should be done in the next few weeks......I'll let you know how it does. I have a all new lower end with Yukons cryoed and back cut. Should be indestructable for mx. I hope!!!

[8686]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I need some advise from some Puma owners/ builders. Can some one point me in the right direction? We are wanting to build a 430 to run nationals next year.

Will this engine hold up under MX abuse? What steps do we need to take for durability and what is prone to failure?

Do you plan on running all the nationals next year? What class or classes are you planning on running? I'm hoping to hit a couple nationals with my 250R as well.

[Derrick Adams]

As it stands right now, we are tenatively planning on running all the nationals.

[fulltiltrider]

What is the port timing on these cylinders as cast. I thought these would be upwards of 190 on the exhaust out of the box. Are you guys that are running them for mx turning material off the base?

[atvmxr]

Originally posted by Ruf Racing
Hey don't get me wrong, I like mucho :muscle: power like the next guy. And I don't race MX. But I hear guys talking about managable power. Puma's are some badass power!:D
James is right, the guys on the net are running quite a few
Pumas.


well personally I love the hell out of my 540 (technically ~533cc) on the mx track. but thats a zilla motor = powervalve so its set up pretty smooth with no real "hit" to it, just hauls the moment you give it throttle. I would imagine a properly setup Puma would be similarly fun, but maybe a little more tiring. :macho

[Derrick Adams]

After alot of research, it seems these cylinders are just not refined enough yet for my liking. I think at this point we're going to look at a more traditional PRO-X cylinder set-up. I believe we will see similar power with much better reliability.

[derby]

Pro-x more reliable? Guaranteed the puma as a cylinder will last much longer than any pro-x will. The design, piston, and crank are far superior to anything used on the pro-x. If you are already running a 330 you may gain 3-4hp stepping up to a big pro-x for your type of riding. Why waste your money? The puma's are having problems with transmissions. It is going to take cryo treatment and under cutting the gears the keep from failure. Unless the dunable override works as good as they say then we may have found the answer.

If you have done your research all you have heard is testimonials of a bunch of people who do not own a puma. IMO you are listening to the wrong comments. If you want to build a motor that makes real power, with real reliability you should go with the puma and stick with a good tranny builder.

It seems there is a misconception of what the puma can really do. All I hear is it is a duner or a drag motor from people who have never even ridden it. Not true, with 195 degrees of exhaust and the shearer pipe the puma will still put out more bottom end than any pro-x out there. If the puma was more affordable the pro-x and esr cylinders would be obsolete. But as everyone knows you have to pay to play.

If you want to be competitive with today’s 4 strokes you are going to have to step it up. As we know the 4 strokes have smoother power, better traction, and in most cases more hp than the 250r. Time to even out the score and take advantage of technology that is far superior to other 2 stroke atv technology.

[fulltiltrider]

Originally posted by derby


It seems there is a misconception of what the puma can really do. All I hear is it is a duner or a drag motor from people who have never even ridden it. Not true, with 195 degrees of exhaust and the shearer pipe the puma will still put out more bottom end than any pro-x out there. If the puma was more affordable the pro-x and esr cylinders would be obsolete. But as everyone knows you have to pay to play.



If this is true, that is awesome but, being a engine builder myself (not my profession by any means, but an avid hobby), I have never seen any 2 stroke with that kind of port timing that made the kind of tractable power that is needed in mx. Not saying it cant be done but I have built zilla's with timing from anywhere between 185-200 degrees of timing and at 195 it would be a real handfull on a track. I've heard that people were milling some material off the base and making up for it in head design, I can see it being done that way and being a real monster though, but at a lower port timing.

[derby]

Originally posted by fulltiltrider
If this is true, that is awesome but, being a engine builder myself (not my profession by any means, but an avid hobby), I have never seen any 2 stroke with that kind of port timing that made the kind of tractable power that is needed in mx. Not saying it cant be done but I have built zilla's with timing from anywhere between 185-200 degrees of timing and at 195 it would be a real handfull on a track. I've heard that people were milling some material off the base and making up for it in head design, I can see it being done that way and being a real monster though, but at a lower port timing.


I understand what you are saying, and when I got the motor I too thought it would all be drag. However by bumping up the compression ratio and running more blow down than normal, and the right pipe it has made the bike very responsive on bottom end.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by derby
Unless the dunable override works as good as they say then we may have found the answer.

DO NOT go with a dunable override! They do not work and it's a ticking time bomb.....Any real good tranny person will tell you they do not last long. I'm speaking from experience with my Banshee i race with.

IMO....The Puma is Honda's version of the Cheetah cub for the banshee. I run Cheetah's on two Banshee's and one is a play bike set up, going on two seasons with no problems yet (196E/128T) on the port timing.....I'm being told the Puma reacts the same, little bottom, great mid, unbelievable top end pull. It seems to me if you want to run against the 4pokes in MX a P/V motor would be the only way to go. Although i'm sure some compression and a little timing change would/could help the bottom.

[Honda 250r 001]

pumas make a lot of power, but i dont think there as reliable as the pro x. for the money.

[derby]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
pumas make a lot of power, but i dont think there as reliable as the pro x. for the money.

It is post's like yours that turn people off from the puma. Someone interested in the setup goes to google for a search and it pops up your post and they think man I don't need a setup like that. Little do they know you can't help ignorant? Justify your comment with your brilliant knowledge. A guy with your post count like yours should be one hell of an experienced 250r guru.

[derby]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
DO NOT go with a dunable override! They do not work and it's a ticking time bomb.....Any real good tranny person will tell you they do not last long. I'm speaking from experience with my Banshee i race with.

IMO....The Puma is Honda's version of the Cheetah cub for the banshee. I run Cheetah's on two Banshee's and one is a play bike set up, going on two seasons with no problems yet (196E/128T) on the port timing.....I'm being told the Puma reacts the same, little bottom, great mid, unbelievable top end pull. It seems to me if you want to run against the 4pokes in MX a P/V motor would be the only way to go. Although i'm sure some compression and a little timing change would/could help the bottom.


I have heard what you are saying from others. But I like first hand experience like yours as opposed to what someone saw on another post. The puma is most similar to the Banshee DMX. My port timings I never thought would work for what I wanted but as every other puma rider has said it is awesome power bottom to top.

[fulltiltrider]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
DO NOT go with a dunable override! They do not work and it's a ticking time bomb.....Any real good tranny person will tell you they do not last long. I'm speaking from experience with my Banshee i race with.

IMO....The Puma is Honda's version of the Cheetah cub for the banshee. I run Cheetah's on two Banshee's and one is a play bike set up, going on two seasons with no problems yet (196E/128T) on the port timing.....I'm being told the Puma reacts the same, little bottom, great mid, unbelievable top end pull. It seems to me if you want to run against the 4pokes in MX a P/V motor would be the only way to go. Although i'm sure some compression and a little timing change would/could help the bottom.

What kind of racing are you doing that you are blowing a dunable override. I know lots of guys that have been duneing and drag racing their overrides for yrs and no issues. Properly done an override will stand up to alot of abuse. Now if you are trying to downshift under power alot I can see some issues but if using as inteded no, are they for a mx machine, absolutly not

[rsss396]

Originally posted by derby
However by bumping up the compression ratio and running more blow down than normal, and the right pipe it has made the bike very responsive on bottom end.

did you mean run less blow down? meaning you have raised the transfer ports.

raising the transfers can help a bunch for the low-midrange even with 196 exhaust.

big bores can run higher exhaust numbers and still be somewhat torque monsters.

compression helps allot too, but flywheel weight can help take allot of the pipe's hit away, so running the stock flywheel or a cr ignition with a added weight would help make the bike more controlable.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by fulltiltrider
What kind of racing are you doing that you are blowing a dunable override.

I've been running an override on my drag bike for several years.....When the dunable override came out i waited for a while to see how they held up, after a while i installed one in my play bike and wasn't long before the preload spring gave way and i was pulled back to camp on the hook. I ride in the sand only...No dirt riding at all.

This could end up being just an opinion conversation but if you look around at some of the top engine builders even they stop selling the dunable override due to issues that haven't been corrected. Don't get me wrong, i'm a big override fan, in fact i shaved off seconds from my 300ft times, and that's saying a lot. But for a play bike, i won't install the so called dunable override again....I have better things to buy with $400

[derby]

Originally posted by rsss396
did you mean run less blow down? meaning you have raised the transfer ports.

raising the transfers can help a bunch for the low-midrange even with 196 exhaust.

big bores can run higher exhaust numbers and still be somewhat torque monsters.

compression helps allot too, but flywheel weight can help take allot of the pipe's hit away, so running the stock flywheel or a cr ignition with a added weight would help make the bike more controlable.

Yes you are right, I guess I did not re-read back through it after I typed it. More blowdown makes for more of a pipey motor. Running the least amt of BD that you can for intended build with the correct shape ex port and pipe is what I wanted to say. Sorry I was typing in the middle of work.

[rsss396]

I have heard also that the dunables don't really work but what are they doing differantly on the dunables compared to the drag style?
seams like there would have to be something given up in shifting performance on the dunables otherwise they all would be cut that way

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by derby
I have heard what you are saying from others. But I like first hand experience like yours as opposed to what someone saw on another post. The puma is most similar to the Banshee DMX. My port timings I never thought would work for what I wanted but as every other puma rider has said it is awesome power bottom to top.

We all like what we like.....Best thing about a forum is hearing others opinions or experience.

I can only truly speak from what i feel and experience from my Pro-X 350PV motor....I'm running between 62 to 65 hp depending on which dyno it's on, for a play bike that's more than enough.

If i was drag racing my Honda, it most likely would have a Sabertooth installed on it....That's the only balls out Honda cylinder i have riden and watch (buddy owns one).

As for the Puma being like a DMX....It seems like the Sabertooth would be more comparable to the DMX than the Puma.

[derby]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
I've been running an override on my drag bike for several years.....When the dunable override came out i waited for a while to see how they held up, after a while i installed one in my play bike and wasn't long before the preload spring gave way and i was pulled back to camp on the hook. I ride in the sand only...No dirt riding at all.

This could end up being just an opinion conversation but if you look around at some of the top engine builders even they stop selling the dunable override due to issues that haven't been corrected. Don't get me wrong, i'm a big override fan, in fact i shaved off seconds from my 300ft times, and that's saying a lot. But for a play bike, i won't install the so called dunable override again....I have better things to buy with $400

The puma's with overrides are holding up fine. It is the clutching and dumping at wot where you get a little slack in the trans then you dump 75-85 hp on is where the problem is. If you could indeed get the dunable override to work then when ridding the bike you can shift it normally then drag racing use the override part. It is a good thought but without seeing how it works in the cases also leaves me a little skeptical. I have a 1-4 override but I don't want it in my dune bike.

Back to port timing the larger stroke and bore will allow for higher port timings. While most honda guys know what timings work on a 330 or 350 is not really the same as a 430.

A few years ago when the sabertooth first came out, a guy set it up with the same port timings as his 370. And it ran worse than his 370. Just because it is right on a pro-x does not mean it will be right on a different design/bore/stroke.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by rsss396
I have heard also that the dunables don't really work but what are they doing differantly on the dunables compared to the drag style?

Please don't qoute me and maybe someone else will chime in...I've had both my standard override and dunable on my bench and they look excatly the same, same cuts, same dog ears (Shift clogs, whatever you want to call them) cut off...The only thing different that i noticed is a light preload spring to keep the gears ingaged when you get off the throttle. I know there's more to it than that but since i don't build them i really didn't dig that deep into how and why. The spring is what gave out and allowed my gears to come collide.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by derby
It is post's like yours that turn people off from the puma. Someone interested in the setup goes to google for a search and it pops up your post and they think man I don't need a setup like that. Little do they know you can't help ignorant? Justify your comment with your brilliant knowledge. A guy with your post count like yours should be one hell of an experienced 250r guru.

i paid 550 for a 310 pro x, its super reliable for the money, hell just the cylinder costs more then 550 let alone the good stock tranny gears and clutches you will need.

dont be ****tin on me bcause all i was sayin is that a pro x 310 is cheaper and more reliable FOR THE MONEY...

[derby]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
We all like what we like.....Best thing about a forum is hearing others opinions or experience.

I can only truly speak from what i feel and experience from my Pro-X 350PV motor....I'm running between 62 to 65 hp depending on which dyno it's on, for a play bike that's more than enough.

If i was drag racing my Honda, it most likely would have a Sabertooth installed on it....That's the only balls out Honda cylinder i have riden and watch (buddy owns one).

As for the Puma being like a DMX....It seems like the Sabertooth would be more comparable to the DMX than the Puma.


When you set them down side by side the puma best matches up with the dmx and couger In fact they use the same layout, bore, and stroke. While the sabertooth is most similar to the layout of the schmitter or caracal.

[rsss396]

I had rudy kruz cut my trans and it also has a light preload spring but it is not a duneable trans, but maybe he just adds it for the few times you forget and backload the gears while driving it.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by derby
The puma's with overrides are holding up fine.

Just because it is right on a pro-x does not mean it will be right on a different design/bore/stroke.

My overrride on my drag banshee is great, never had a problem and i'm running at around 105HP depending on the day and the dyno.

Your quote on the port timing goes for all cylinders of different makes....There's more to it than just the timing. There's angles and surface area etc etc that make each cylinder run different.

I just jump over to another website and did a fast read on the Puma and Sabertooth.....98Hp on what the builder calls a ridable Sabertooth...DAMN!!! I can alread see my future with a Sabertooth!

[rsss396]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
i paid 550 for a 310 pro x, its super reliable for the money, hell just the cylinder costs more then 550 let alone the good stock tranny gears and clutches you will need.

dont be ****tin on me bcause all i was sayin is that a pro x 310 is cheaper and more reliable FOR THE MONEY...

Problem is you keep saying more reliable, when that has not yet been proven.

But yes they(pro-x) are cheaper and can be made to make great horsepower.

The Puma is for the guys looking to make the next step up and IMO really only the drag guys would benefit taking the step up.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by derby
When you set them down side by side the puma best matches up with the dmx and couger In fact they use the same layout, bore, and stroke. While the sabertooth is most similar to the layout of the schmitter or caracal.

I've held the Sabertooth and compared it to Cheetah cylinders, I can see where the designs came from, they look like family members to me......We have a local shop that I’ve been racing with for years that is a big pusher for the Sabertooth. Not a big fan of his pricing or customer service but he builds fast engines.

Not that this is a Banshee forum but he just built a banshee engine with two CR500 cylinders on it....Over 200HP.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by rsss396
I had rudy kruz cut my trans and it also has a light preload spring but it is not a duneable trans, but maybe he just adds it for the few times you forget not to backload the gears while driving it.

I've heard of people doing that for safety sake....I would seriously consider that this winter when i tear it down.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by rsss396
Problem is you keep saying more reliable, when that has not yet been proven.

I'm avoiding the reliablity conversation, but for a play bike that i put a lot of hours on i like that my cylinder is cheap to freshin up with a new bore and piston compare to re-coating and new piston. Not a reliability issue, just a dollar issue.

[derby]

Originally posted by rsss396
I had rudy kruz cut my trans and it also has a light preload spring but it is not a duneable trans, but maybe he just adds it for the few times you forget not to backload the gears while driving it.

Is the spring between the shift fork and case? And what gears do you have on the override?

[rsss396]

but that could be argued if you never seize a piston.
nicasil will go through allot of pistons before needing a re-plate.
and even when seizing many times they are still usable.

[rsss396]

Originally posted by derby
Is the spring between the shift fork and case? And what gears do you have on the override?

my bike has a cr500 motor and only 1-3 can be done and yes the spring is on the shiftfork shaft against the case

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by rsss396

The Puma is for the guys looking to make the next step up and IMO really only the drag guys would benefit taking the step up.

i completely agree! Thats why im saying that the puma is not for him!

[Derrick Adams]

I sure see alot of conversation about transmissions in this thread that will most likely NOT work in motocross.

Let me add that my 330 has no problems running and beating 450's on the MX track now, i'm just looking to gain a little more power out of the next engine. We have raced my bike in C-Quad, B-Quad, Open Quad, and Sr. Quad and it's more than capable of staying with the front of the pack.

I found most of my info on ".net" where I read thru many, many posts by owners of Puma cylinders. In these posts I saw fitment issues, no real pipes other than drag pipes (even the shearer in frame is a top-end pipe), coolant leaks, no head stays cast in to to head, cracking frames, excessive vibrations, intake and exhaust fitment issues, etc. This is what I see as reliability issues.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by rsss396
but that could be argued if you never seize a piston.
nicasil will go through allot of pistons before needing a re-plate.
and even when seizing many times they are still usable.

We could probably argue anything....For performance i prefer nicasil, for cost i prefer a sleeve. To this day i've never seized a piston, i've done a lot worse that damaged my cylinder walls but never just seized one.

I'm a fence sitter on this subject because i have both style of cylinders and like both for different reasons.

[hondamancbr03]

Originally posted by Derrick Adams
I sure see alot of conversation about transmissions in this thread that will most likely NOT work in motocross.

Ya, i would have to say we got off coarse from your original question......Interesting info you found on the Puma, was it from Puma owners?
Makes sense about cracking without a head stay....Was that 250r.net that you found that info on?

[fulltiltrider]

Originally posted by rsss396
did you mean run less blow down? meaning you have raised the transfer ports.

raising the transfers can help a bunch for the low-midrange even with 196 exhaust.

big bores can run higher exhaust numbers and still be somewhat torque monsters.

compression helps allot too, but flywheel weight can help take allot of the pipe's hit away, so running the stock flywheel or a cr ignition with a added weight would help make the bike more controlable.


Still being somewhat of a torque monster and making tractable power for mx are apples to oranges imo. 195 and higher port timings are high, I dont care if its a 1000cc, its high.

[1promodfan]

I tell you who can really help you out. Give M&M ATV a call and talk to Andy. They are some really nice guys, and they have built quite a few Puma's. I believe they can get you in the right direction, and they have some of the best prices on Puma's. They can also build you a motor.

[mxduner]

I ride mx as well and i would like to see more sphinx owners. Derrick have you looked into those? they run stock size reed cages and exhuast pipes, and you can get them with a pv. Just a thought...

[rsss396]

Originally posted by fulltiltrider
Still being somewhat of a torque monster and making tractable power for mx are apples to oranges imo. 195 and higher port timings are high, I dont care if its a 1000cc, its high.

yea MX bikes are a differant breed for sure, I think 4 strokes do so well in MX because of that wide predictable power curve.

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by mxduner
I ride mx as well and i would like to see more sphinx owners. Derrick have you looked into those? they run stock size reed cages and exhuast pipes, and you can get them with a pv. Just a thought...

I heard they couldn't really get any numbers out of the sphinx. Also heard they might not be making them anymore.

[250r grave yard]

he dont have to get the 431 puma there as small as 293cc with the same port layout

[buford]

I have a 431 cc Puma that I am trying to sort out as we speak. It's a dune bike on gas. I am bumping up the compression, then going back to working on the jetting. 195-196 exhaust duration with 32 degrees of blow down is what the port timings are. shearer custom in frame pipe for the puma, CR 250 ignition with a Dyna 4 timing curve built in non adjustable CDI for the CR 250 (don't make anymore) that I run on setting #1 a bit more advanced on the bottom end vs stock. 41 PWK carb, YZ 490 rod, 4 mil crank balanced, standard trans no over ride, yukon gears, and had the remaining stock gears plus the yukons along with the YZ 490 rod cryoed. Slingshot lockup clutch. As you can see, I spent alot of money making sure this thing has a stout bottom end. I am still sorting out the jetting but from what I have played with it and what I have read how the banshee cub, cheetah, etc,etc cylinders run are to jet, this puma is real similar. Fairly small pilot jet, needle lean 1/4 throttle, needs gas mid range, and a fairly small main. I haev ridden a 421 cc cub on gas, and the power is similar the only difference is the Puma makes a bit more bottom end. Once I get my jetting figured out this should increase. I was only running 14:1 compression and will bump to 15-15.5:1 and will see a increase on the bottom. I ran a 300 yard drag hill the other day and looked at my EGT guage which will read rpms as well and it pulled 10,560 rpms on the top. These cylinders love to rev. I have made this big long reply basically to say, this will be a real expensive MX motor for you to build with no real experience on wether it could work or not. I would most definately lower the port timings into the 188-190 range tops and you would probably get more bottom end running a 250 pipe on it but will sacrafice hp. I can tell you I feel the puma cylinder will be more reliable due to it's design then the old Pro-X cylinder, not sure vs the new ESR cylinder.

CPI inc, the maker of all these cylinder did make a small cylinder the Sphinx, but I don't think he is making them any longer. They never performed well.

If you wanted to experiment a little and it would be a bunch cheaper to build, I would build a 78 mm 4 mil puma. Not many of these built yet but for your application I think it would be better suited. You will still have to cut the base of the cylinder down to get the port heights way down, but this wouldn't be a problem. I would run the YZ 490 rod, you won't have to balance the crank, KTM 380 piston will allow you not to run a spacer plate. Won't need a lock up clutch, but will need to run your yukon gear set and I would cryo it along with the balance of the gears. CR 250 ignition, a 39-40 mm carb, and a 250 pipe would probably work fairly well with this bore size and you would be set. These cylinders unported and un nikisiled are in line with a unported Pro-X cylinder. This is the path I would take.