Needs some input

[Pappy]

Here are all the facts I know....


Two men, neighbors get into a long time arguement/fued.

One day, the fued escalates to a physical confrontation.

A baseball bat is retrieved from one of the neighbors homes, and it is used to start violent destruction of the other neighbors property

The one neighbor retreats, returns from the home with a gun and orders the man to leave

He does not leave but continues his assault on the property

The man with the gun returns to the house where by the man with the bat starts smashing in the windows to the house. 2 children and the wife are in the house as well....

The man shoots and kills the man with the bat through what remains of the window.

Justified or not?


This is truly all I know and it is from media reports so I cant say the facts are 100% accurate. Im curious to how you all will vote this one.

[Ralph]

I will never say its ok that the man died but I wont say the man who shot him should go to jail either.

If I was in that position I would have shot a warning shot or two and then in the leg if I really felt threatened.

There is way too much we don't know though as far as prior threats or the history of the dispute.

Keep us updated with any details you find.

[Pappy]

So after pointing the gun at the person and they refuse to leave...retreating to your home and the attack continues, however now it is actually the home and could be an attempt to gain entry where your wife and kids are.....its not justifiable?

I know states have varying laws...just interested in seeing how others view this, so if i ask questions dont take it personal.

And a warning shot would have landed the man in jail even if it did ward off the attack and i understand the validaty of a warning shot....I think I would have fired a warning shot and used the broken window as being a justifiable reason to discharge my weapon.....but this is hindsight and or pure specualtion. The guy could have been 110% in fear for his family.

[Pappy]

For the record, here he could have been shot in the yard:p We do not have to retreat and can use deadly force if we feel our life is in jeopardy

[fastredrider44]

This is a tough one according to the circumstances. I voted justified, but I believe a couple of holes in the legs would have stoppped a guy with a baseball bat. However, If he retreated to his house and got his gun, then you would have wished you would have finished him off earlier.

[Pappy]

4 more votes and we have a jury

[extremeblastr]

i don't care who you are or what i did to you, come smashing in windows while my wife and 2 kids are home and you won't live long enough to know what happened. i've been in a situation somewhat like this before (no one was killed but shots were fired) hanging out at a friends house one night. his dad is a regional manager for a chain of grocery stores. we're all hanging around by a fire in the back yard when thankgod someone was facing the driveway because a disgruntled former employee sped into the driveway and attempted to hit us all with the car. my friend and i ran into the house and everyone else of course followed suit but with said attacker hot on our heels. his dad managed to close the door and lock it but our new "friend" of course was attempting to knock it in. the owner of the house (friends dad) warned the would be intruder that if his foot crossed the threshold of the door into the house he would be shot and then went and retrieved the gun. guy breaks in door and steps in to immediatley catch one in the shoulder and drop. friends father gave a statment along with everyone else present and nothing ever came of it.

[Nac's22]

I say justified, fearing for his and his family's saftey/lives he fired in defence. I might go to jail but I will not let anyone try to harm my family in a place where they should be safe at all time.

P.S. I saw wife and 2 kids and gun and my wheels started turning Pappy lol

[shane071489]

this is what i think i think that if you shoot to kill him its not justified but if the death was an accidental which no one would see it that way i think it would be justified if you shot him to subdue him, to make him stop, i think it would of defiantely been justified and i would of done the exact thing but him dying would be my luck haha and id get blamed probally just like he is going to be

[extremeblastr]

Originally posted by TRR440EX
P.S. I saw wife and 2 kids and gun and my wheels started turning Pappy lol

haha i second that. once those facts were in my head i started reading faster thinkin maybe there had been an "incident" at the hill residence

[usp4u]

the real question here is ...Does the state that this happened in recognize the "Castle Doctrine" or any other "stand your ground laws" ?

It would be much easier to find this shooting as justified if it happened in a Castle Doctrine state. In a nut-shell the CD states that one may use lethal force on one's property if fear immediate bodily harm is imminate. Conversly, if in a state which does not recognize CS, that homeowners has a "Duty to retreat" if possible to avoid bodily harm.

I would urge you to research "Castle Doctrine" and "Stand your ground laws" and consult an attorney versed in those topics.
I am no lawyer so take this for what it is worth.

[Pappy]

Pennslyvania is the state this occured in....not sure about their laws, but he did retreat to his home and it appears he fired only after the other person broke in the window of the him.


Here, I would have killed him the minute he picked up a bat, BUT I can honestly say that the smart thing to do was to retreat to the home.

[usp4u]

Pa DOES recognize the CD. Additionally, going into house was a smart move and obviously shows intent to exit the confrontation. HOPEFULLY a 911 call was placed at that time before the shooting. If that occurred, the homeowner has a pretty strong case for justifcation.

A criminal defense attorney WELL VERSED in Castle Doctrine law is a must here. The CD is the homeowners best chance at aquittal.

[Pappy]

8 Justifed
4 Not

Please keep voting, just wanted to see what the first 12 would generate

[Pappy]

Originally posted by usp4u
Pa DOES recognize the CD. Additionally, going into house was a smart move and obviously shows intent to exit the confrontation. HOPEFULLY a 911 call was placed at that time before the shooting. If that occurred, the homeowner has a pretty strong case for justifcation.

A criminal defense attorney WELL VERSED in Castle Doctrine law is a must here. The CS is the homeowners best chance at aquittal.

Police were reportedly contacted by neighbors 25 minutes prior to the shooting

[motofreak2772]

wtf... I think thats deffintley not justifiable by todays laws. Seriously I think a shot to a limb would have been more reasonable, I understand that yes he felt threatened but thats not how things work. you can't just kill someone for that. You can't tell me that the person who killed him or his family thinks it was the right thing.

people say that they would kill anyone when the feel their family is at risk, but how serious was the risk and is there anything you could do other than killing the person to stop him? Taking his life is pretty extreme no matter how much you think he deserves it. I dont want my family harmed just as much as the next guy but killing isnt the answer lol.

Originally posted by extremeblastr
haha i second that. once those facts were in my head i started reading faster thinkin maybe there had been an "incident" at the hill residence haha i thought same thing i started readin and i was like crap!!!!pappy shot someone!

[usp4u]

Originally posted by Pappy
Police were reportedly contacted by neighbors 25 minutes prior to the shooting

Then as we say over at AR15.com.
.
.
.
.
.
"GOOD SHOOT"

[fastredrider44]

Originally posted by Pappy
Police were reportedly contacted by neighbors 25 minutes prior to the shooting

Uh, If the homeowner didn't want to shoot the guy, the police shoulda got there sooner.

When I first opened this thread and saw pappy urgent in getting responses, I almost thought we might be signing some sort of petition for him to use in court. lol

[Pappy]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
wtf... I think thats deffintley not justifiable by todays laws. Seriously I think a shot to a limb would have been more reasonable, I understand that yes he felt threatened but thats not how things work. you can't just kill someone for that. You can't tell me that the person who killed him or his family thinks it was the right thing.

people say that they would kill anyone when the feel their family is at risk, but how serious was the risk and is there anything you could do other than killing the person to stop him? Taking his life is pretty extreme no matter how much you think he deserves it. I dont want my family harmed just as much as the next guy but killing isnt the answer lol.

A man with a baseball bat is an immediate threat when he is coming at you. There is nowhere I know of that trains to "shoot to wound", there is to much room for error and when you are forced to shoot someone in self defense, you should shoot to kill...pure and simple.

In this example, it could be argued that the man who was shot never made entry, therefore wasnt an immediate danger....most see it the other way.

As far as killing, I wouldnt loose a seconds sleep over killing someone out to harm myself or my family, you cant modernize keeping yourself alive...you do what you have to or you die.

[usp4u]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
wtf... I think thats deffintley not justifiable by todays laws. Seriously I think a shot to a limb would have been more reasonable, I understand that yes he felt threatened but thats not how things work. you can't just kill someone for that. You can't tell me that the person who killed him or his family thinks it was the right thing.

people say that they would kill anyone when the feel their family is at risk, but how serious was the risk and is there anything you could do other than killing the person to stop him? Taking his life is pretty extreme no matter how much you think he deserves it. I dont want my family harmed just as much as the next guy but killing isnt the answer lol.

Some of the worst advice/thinking possible. NEVER, EVER SHOOT TO WOUND. ALWAYS SHOOT UNTIL THE THREAT IS "GONE". Shooting to wound is how you WILL lose everything you own in a civil trial no matter how justified you were.
When you take actions which threaten the saftey of others, particulaly those who cannot defend themselves(women/children) you can expect to be killed. I suggest you reaserch this topic before making conjecture. I have never attended a self-defense firearms class that condones wounding. That shows that you were not in GRAVE danger of losing your life.


BTW, you live in Flordia, one of the first states to adopt the Cas. Doc. and they support it very well...you should be proud.

[Tommy Warren]

Heres how I see it.

you have a wife and 2 kids........you have a douche with a bat possibly intending to harm your wife and 2 kids.......who would you rather see get injured? answers pretty simple to me.


JUSTIFIED!!


part of your duty as a father and husband is to protect your family at all costs. ;)

[jesseweaver]

Originally posted by Pappy


Here, I would have killed him the minute he picked up a bat, BUT I can honestly say that the smart thing to do was to retreat to the home.

you're saying you get into an arguement with someone in the front yeard, a little pushing and shoving goes on, he picks up a bat and you wouldn't lose a second of sleep over killing him right there :rolleyes:


there is a chance you will eventually be in this situation, i pray to god you don't react how you say you would.

by spending the rest of your life in jail, you're hurting your wife and kids pretty damn bad.


i say unjustified judging by the info given. warning shot or shot to the legs woulda got the job done.

[Pappy]

You are assuming a simple assualt....we are talking a baseball bat being brought into play with that bat being used as a weapon. And yes, I would shoot to kill, there is no wounding, this isnt the movies.

Does one intend to give someone a bruise with bat? Or a little prick with a knife?

My family not only backs my line of protection and defense, they are trained to do the same.

And no, wouldnt give it a second thought. If you act like an animal, I will treat you like one.

justified...my family lives this one out.

if you don't want shot, don't come at me with any DEADLY weapon

[usp4u]

those of you who have said, "just shoot them in a limb" have no idea what you are talking about. this is real life, not a cop-show. If you shoot to wound and cause an injury to the perp YOU WILL FRY at the civil trial. We live in a very litigeous time and if wounded, you can expect the perp to sue you. then, you lose everything for sure.
If you PURPOSELY shoot-to-wound, your life was not in grave danger, therefor you had no justification to shoot at all.
If the perp has a weapon, is going after you on your own property and you are in fear for your life...You dont stop shooting until the perp has expired. Center of mass/chest cavity, not trying to shoot a leg/arm. You'll miss anyway.
If we're talking handguns, do you guys realize how terrible ALL calibers of handgun are at putting a man down. Shoot someone in the shoulder with a bat and expect them to stop the attack, you run a good chance of beign killed.

[rundrave]

justified

there was a situation like this here locally

drunk college kid thinks he is at his house but its really the house next door. homeowner is woke up by the college kid trying to force his way into the home. home owner tells kid to leave, kid refuses and breaks glass in the door to gain entry. he is shot and killed on the spot

no charges filed against shooter, and I would have done the same thing

[CHAR250R]

Justified for me, too.

You have to protect your family no matter what.

My wife would have shot the guy before I could have.

don't mess with mama! :D

[reptikes]

If the man with the bat never threatened to use or attempted to use the bat to cause bodily injury then the shotters in trouble.
Threatening to and doing damage to ones property is completely different then threatening someones life. No matter how scary it might have been for his wife and kids.

One of my bestfriends just went threw it and he never pulled the trigger... He had to fist fight 2 guys in his home with his lady and daughter there. They kicked in his 52 inch t.v. and started braking random stuff. He goes to the closet for his shotgun (there now on his porch threatening his life and property) he goes outside aims at them and tells them to leave or get shot. Guess who goes to jail... My boy! He had to pay $4000 and some odd dollars to the 2 guys not counting the money he paid Duke George to fight the case.

Now what do you think is going to happen to the guy in your story Pappy... The DA will present a case that'll make that guy seem so wrong for what he did. No Matter how Right he was!

Unless he knows somebody. It always helps to have friends in high places.

[extremeblastr]

Originally posted by reptikes
If the man with the bat never threatened to use or attempted to use the bat to cause bodily injury then the shotters in trouble.
Threatening to and doing damage to ones property is completely different then threatening someones life. No matter how scary it might have been for his wife and kids.

One of my bestfriends just went threw it and he never pulled the trigger... He had to fist fight 2 guys in his home with his lady and daughter there. They kicked in his 52 inch t.v. and started braking random stuff. He goes to the closet for his shotgun (there now on his porch threatening his life and property) he goes outside aims at them and tells them to leave or get shot. Guess who goes to jail... My boy! He had to pay $4000 and some odd dollars to the 2 guys not counting the money he paid Duke George to fight the case.

Now what do you think is going to happen to the guy in your story Pappy... The DA will present a case that'll make that guy seem so wrong for what he did. No Matter how Right he was!

Unless he knows somebody. It always helps to have friends in high places.

what part of "just trying to disbable the attacker(s) is going to make you fry" didn't you understand? if he feared for his life and they entered the home he should've of damn well pulled the trigger and he would've been happily backed up by a lot of people for it.

[Pappy]

It's hard to say which way the court proceedings will flow. If it was cut and dry the man would be out now but is still in jail. Usually a justifiable shooting finds the shooter detained for a short time. With just the info the paper has released, his detention still in full swing, I would have to geuss he will not get bail and be in jail until his trial.

If he can get a jury trial, I think he may get aquitted or a setence that will not reflect homicide and it will be reduced. I also think the prior history between the two will add to the case, not in a positive way. Ofcourse we dont know the criminal history if any of either man.

And I agree, you show up here and start taking a bat to my truck, then you will be seeing the police when they arrive. If you turn your attention to the home where my family is however, you are a dead man. I think as a society we have given far to much leeway to those that are violent and have intent or actually commit violent acts and those that defend themselves are crucified as the bad guy. It is slowly changing as more people become fed up with a criminal riddled society.

The warning shots do nothing for you legally, although it may or may not deter or act as a deterent. I think there is a growing cluster of people that feel a gun is not as strong of a deterent as it once was, maybe evident by the man in this story who did not leave when confronted by a weapon. I have heard many stories where a gun did not put an end to the situation once displayed, infact it can easily be turned on the person trying to use it, another reason why if your forced to defend, you commit to following through with it.

I know it sounds if I am flipant when it comes to the issue of shooting someone bent on harming me in a life threatening way, but thats the way it is. I view a criminal or attacker as sub human and will put them down. There are ofcourse situations where other options will be used but we are speaking hypothetically and figurativley on these scenarios. I will not bow to this abuse, will not cower, and will use any means possible to defend my life and that of my family. Its very cut and dry once it has been established I need to act. You can argue about the validity of it, but its just symantics once it reaches the point of defense.

I also think alot of people live in a world where they feel defending your life is such a low probablity that they assume it will never affect them. In a perfect world that would be great, but the facts and odd;s are against you. You see it in some of the stories posted here, a person is fined or jailed for defending themselves inside their home as reptikes has suggested.

I was assualted by two people years ago, both ended up being drunk. I did not know them. I was armed but the situation was over so fast that it wasnt needed. They went to the hospital and I spent 30 minutes at the police station and was free to go. There was an attempt at civil retrubution but it never gained ground thanks to people who saw them confront and assault me.

On another occasion I had 4 men confront me in a car with a shotgun pointed at me. I was able to ID the car, and the men, but they were never arrested or charged with a crime. I was NOT armed at that moment, or I would have done my best to kill all 4 men. This occured where I worked in the parking lot and was witnessed by several employees. When they police did nothing, I decided that from that day on I would never be caught unarmed or in a position I wasnt readily prepared to defend my life. The situation was brought about by a bad check I had to collect on from one of the 4 mens employer. They were willing to kill me over a $25 bank fee.

I may end up in prison for defending my life, and I can accept that. My family is prepared for whatever life throws at us although we pray it will never occur.

No sir, some of us will not lay down. We dont go looking for it, but wont allow our lives to be disrupted by it. My wife would rather see me alive and in jail then in a box on the hill. I am not worried that I may loose everything, to me life is everything

[usp4u]

The old phrase, "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six" rings as true today as in any other period in our history.

People need to understand something here. If this guy had taken a bat to a police officer, and was shot and killed noone would have a problem with it. Police officers are STILL civilians/citizens just like you and me. No different and have to abide by the same rules as us. Thus, the difference between the two lies only in one's perception of weather their life is worth defending. Do you value your life ?

[400exrider707]

I was taught at a younger age, that if I ever had to pull a gun on someone, I better be prepared to pull the trigger, and if I was going to pull the trigger, I better end it all right there. If they're dead, its just your story, if they live, its their story vs. yours. It sounds brutal but once I grew up and saw first hand how the justice system really worked, it rings true...

As far as the case in hand goes... man it'd be tough to shoot someone who was a friend, even if they're messing up all my stuff... its really a tough call and I dont think I'm going to vote simply because I dont think there is enough info provided... meaning we really dont know what happened that day and we may never.

[fandl450r]

From what I've read Pappy sounds like his actions are definitelty justifiable.

[insaneracin2003]

JUSTIFIED!!!
I didn't see anyone reply that if the man with the bat is confronted by the man with the gun, then shot to ,eerrr wound. What happens if the man with the bat returns later with his own gun?
I would much rather take a shot to kill than have to worry about looking over my shoulder later while cutting grass to see if he will return to retalliate....
shoot to kill and be done with it!!

[450rRacer22]

I say justified. Although if it were me, it would end up going down as a fist fight hopefully removing the bat from the guy. I've never owned a gun in my life, only fired a select few. As i read this thread though it actually opens my eyes quite a bit and makes me realize that theres a real good chance that the guy breaking into my house intending to harm my family could be a heck of a lot bigger than me. Having a gun doesnt sound like to bad of an idea anymore. In this scenario, if it were me in that situation and i did have a gun, i would have done the same thing. I dont have a family yet but i do have a girlfriend that i love very much and wouldnt let anything happen to her.

[motofreak2772]

ok even if shooting to wound isnt a good idea then how about a warning shot or hitting the guy. idk I guess im not as much of a redneck as everyone else who can just kill someone and be ok with it. I would always try to find a way around it and until he is in hitting range of my family before I kill the man.

[usp4u]

that would get you "brandishing a weapon","reckless endangerment", "discharging a firearm in populated area" and other charges. Exactly how good do you think you are going to do against a guy with a bat. The only fair fight is the one you win. You are very "matter of fact" when it comes to your own life. Enough that it's kinda scray that you are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to someone who is bent on harming you. This isn't a "redneck" thing, son. It's about not accepting that you are bound to become a victim, so I'll just hope it all ends quickly and hopefully I dont end up dead or a vegetable.
The question then becomes, how much damage are you willing to endure, or willing to let your family endure ? Where's the line ?
Sticking your head in the sand isn't the way to go through life.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by motofreak2772
I would always try to find a way around it and until he is in hitting range of my family before I kill the man.

Most people can not draw a concealed handgun and fire effectivley at a man with a knife who starts his attack from 21 feet away. (search Tueller Drill )

Range is relative, the threat is real. You have to decide in a fraction of a second wether you will defend yourself with lethal force or not. The moment of truth is no time to geuss about what you will do.

My first formal training began at 3 yards. I thought it was a joke. The first few times we ran the drill I missed...at 3 yards. There was pressure, but NOTHING like having your life in the balance. I could put a bullet in a mans head at over 600 yards and couldnt put a round center mass at 3 yards...its a rude awakening, one I accepted and over came. Now, after years of training, I can draw and hit X with my eyes closed with either hand. I dont plan to ever use my skills, but they are there if needed.

A man with a bat....he will be dead before he is in range to swing.

[coryatver]

I think the guy should be let go.

However I think I would do anything possible other than killing the guy before it came to that such as just getting the heck out of there and let the police take care of it. I would have been telling the wife to take the kids and leave after the first argument and the police call took place before he went back for the bat. Luckily the guy didn't come back with a gun and some buddies and the wife and kid is still there.

Im not going to be a macho guy on the internet pounding my chest saying anyone steps on my property is dead. Acting like that is a good way to get yourself shot. Best thing is just avoid the situation all together.

and the story about the drunk neighbor college kid that is messed up. They had to have known it was there nieghbor obviously wasted and still killed him. If my nieghbor came over breaking in drunk as heck i would knock some sense into him and point him the right direction

[usp4u]

If thats the case...what's your address ?

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver

Im not going to be a macho guy on the internet pounding my chest saying anyone steps on my property is dead. Acting like that is a good way to get yourself shot.

I have to ask how discussing an issue such as this brings you to this conclusion?

I dont see anyone here threatening one another, but merely speaking hypotheticaly about a few scenarios, all of which we can concur could vary from person to person. How does this equal asking to be shot?

[coryatver]

what i mean by "asking to get shot" is thinking no one can touch you just becuase you have a gun is not a good way to think. Best is to avoid the situation. Not a good Idea to get into an argument then just go home and load up the gun and wait for the guy to step in your yard and shoot him when there are other options to avoid that situation. Who knows what a mad man is capable of and what could happen.


Originally posted by Pappy
Here, I would have killed him the minute he picked up a bat


Originally posted by extremeblastr
i don't care who you are or what i did to you, come smashing in windows while my wife and 2 kids are home and you won't live long enough to know what happened.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by coryatver
Who knows what a mad man is capable of and what could happen.

Well, you have just stated the basic reasoning for being prepared. In the first post, one could say that the arguement and physical confrontation had indeed reached a stage where the shooter was indeed truly fearful of his life, each of us responds differently and only the man with the gun can say how he felt at that moment. He did indeed retreat to his home where by the man with the bat continued the assualt, however this time he started breaking the window to the house. Now what we dont know is if he tried to enter.....in either case, you would be forced to decide what to do while it is occuring to protect yourself and family.

As far as loading up and waiting. Lets say you get into a scuffle down the street over someone cutting you off in traffic. He follows you home. You enter your home and call the police. The person then demolishes your car and then busts in your door and is standing there with say...a tire iron. Are you willing to wait for the police or will you defend yourself and at what point and to what extent?

In this situation, I dont see where you are asking for anything...do you deserve a beating with the tire iron? Is it acceptable to allow someone to assualt you? In any case, jeopardy needs to be established before most will take action....you have to decide when your life is indeed in jeopardy.

If I am armed, and in my yard or on my property and I am approached by a man with a knife...exactly when do I take action? Why should I have to give up my rights for the benefit of someone intent on doing me harm?

I dont know anyone that would openly just shoot someone for stepping in their yard. I do know many circumstances where the issue went down exactly as you suggested....and the shooter is in jail for ever and rightfully so. Not everyone makes the right decisions wether it be with a gun, a car, a hammer etc.

I still dont see where you are asking to be shot if you have retreated to your home, physical altercation or verbal, you have attempted to diffuse teh situation by retreating. If the attack becomes more violent and indeed the person attempts entry to the home, I think that person is asking to be shot, not the other way around. I would have to agree with extremeblaster, you attack my home, your leaving in a bag.

[usp4u]

Originally posted by coryatver
what i mean by "asking to get shot" is thinking no one can touch you just becuase you have a gun is not a good way to think. Best is to avoid the situation.

I dont think anyone here implied that they think that way. Your last sentence is supremely true. Anyone I know who has a concealed carry permit or has attended self defense firearms courses realizes their limitations. A firearm is not something that keeps you safe. It is simply the best tool we have in our defense toolbox. You just have to understand the implications if it is employed.

[usp4u]

Remember kids...When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

Originally posted by coryatver
Who knows what a mad man is capable of and what could happen.

that is the exact reason that one needs to be ready to use deadly force. one hit from the bat and any man would be incapacitated. now the bat wielder is still angry and guess who is next...the wife and children ...as he is NOT thinking rationally...so now he beats on the wife and kids and i come to...he then finishes me off...now we have a complete family dead...as opposed to one guy who decided to attack with a deadly weapon. 9 times out of 10, the guy that brings a knife to the gun fight loses. if the stakes are my life or the lives of my family, i am going to do whatever it takes to win the fight.

there is nothing redneck about placing the well being of my family over the life of someone that is trying to do harm to them. do i want ot kill any one? hell no! am i willing to do it to protect my family? with out a doubt. no posturing here

[eastcoastpro20]

if someone ever breaks in my house or attempts to while i am i have no problem and am very open to the fact i have no problem shooting them and will hold 0 remorse for that person. Here in KY if you shoot someone in your house that was threatening then your in the clear, but if they were say comin threw the window and you shot them and they fell out (herd this from a cop one time) "u best be draggin em back in or your SOL". In my opinion it is your property and if you feel the least bit threatend and you first warn an intruder you should have 100% consent by law to open fire.

[coryatver]

Originally posted by Pappy

I still dont see where you are asking to be shot if you have retreated to your home, physical altercation or verbal, you have attempted to diffuse teh situation by retreating. If the attack becomes more violent and indeed the person attempts entry to the home, I think that person is asking to be shot, not the other way around. I would have to agree with extremeblaster, you attack my home, your leaving in a bag.

I did not mean it that way i understand i did not clearly say what i was thinking and you are right. I just thought in this situation it could have been handled in a different way before it escalated as far as it did.

[Pappy]

Gotcha:p

And I agree, it probably could have been settled before it got that far but from the looks of it, both men were not willing and by the time one man was, the other was probably heated to the point of no return and was killed for his actions.

I hate to say it, but if more people would stand up for themselves, there would be alot less violence in this world. I know it doesnt sound good, but alot of people out there just dont need to be here:p I for one am so sick of hearing about criminals and violent people attacking and killing every day folks....I wish we could rid ourselves of them but this has been going on since cavemen:ermm:

[coryatver]

The home owner made the situation worse when he went back and got a gun and came back out and drove the guy completely over the edge at that point.

If not the guy could have just been out there damaging his property while he waited in the house for the cops to show up instead of having to kill the guy.

[coryatver]

Some friends of friends got shot here last year during a quad robbery. A man and his girl friend. They heard someone on there property on quads and he got a gun and went to check it out and they ended up having a gun fight and his girlfriend got shot but it wasn't deadly and this guy he is a tough guy that will f anybody up that messes with him kind of guy. He didn't have to go up to them with a gun and ask them what they were doing he could have called the cops and let them handle it.

[Pappy]

Well Cory, some of us dont rely on the police, or cant wait for them to arrive. Some of us feel that our home and property are ours, and we will defend it from all foe's. If his girlfriend was shot, he wasnt using very good tactical judgement, she should have been in a secure location if she wasnt engaging targets of her own.

As far as the shooter in the original post turning up the heat when he got the gun, I dont see that as valid. The man with the bat was either to damn dumb to realize he was in a losing situation or didnt care. In either event, he made the decision to continue and he got exactly what he deserved IMO. The shooter could have fired outside, but withheld fire in an appearant attempt to scare off the attacker. After retreating to the house, he probably had the mindset that this guy was off his chain and wasnt going to stop.

I have seen people charge an armed person....I have seen them shot. People sometimes get so enraged that the fear is absent from their thought process. I watched 27 rounds get discharged at a man, they only winged him:chinese: But he wanted to die. There was no fear in him that was shown

I watched another man defy a police officer to shoot him. The officer did everything he could, including backing up to get the man to calm down. He didnt and the cop shot him...hit him just above the belly button.

You can never count on what people will do under stress.

i have a question or two...of those that have answered unjustified...how many have a wife and children? how many still live with their parents or support themselves completely?

[usp4u]

I have spent this whole thread trying to understand the mindset of a person who is willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a STRANGER WHO HAS DECIDED TO DO YOU HARM.

A third of of the folks who have defended the deceased, I think, did not read enough to understand how far the perp went.
A word to those who think that defending yourself with leathal force is wrong: You should understand that those of us who exercise our RIGHT to carry firearms are some of the most Law-abiding individuals you will eaver meet. This is because WE KNOW the law. We do not live in a world of false security. Some of you seem to want to realy on the goodness of your fellow man, but those days are gone folks. We live in a world were things like the Mainstream Media, MTV, and the leftist govermental administaion will have you believe that some folks are criminals simply because of their enviroment or because other more successful folks are somehow keeping these individuals from doing anything productive.

The truth is...WE as in, productive, self-reliant Americans, who understand who we are and why we have the country that we do, realize that we cannot realy on anyone, and that we cannot HOPE for CHANGE(:rolleyes: )like bad people and bad things will eventually go away.


I respect everyone here, but some of you need to get a clue....this isn't Shoot n' Ladders, this is real life.

[powermadd400ex]

definatly justified.

[hskers82]

I say he was justified.Look at it like this:If you wound someone then they always have a second chance to harm or kill,not a good choice now is it.

[reptikes]

I see lots, and lots, and very lots of assuming. I don't think it was justified from Pappys original post.
1. First thing thats being assumed is that the shooter was in fear for his life. He could have been enraged over the destruction of his property and shot his NEIGHBOR out of Anger and Rage not Fear.
It was never stated that the guy or his family where ever threatened. It was also not stated if the guy even tried to enter the building. His full purpose for going over there might have been to smash some material belongings of the shooters and vent.

2. People keep calling him a stranger. He was a NEIGHBOR who was in a long time dispute with the shooter. The words LONG and TIME together mean they knew each other thus he wasn't exactly a stranger.

3. The shooter for all we know started the physical aspect of the confrontation and the other guy a little intimidated grabbed his bat to keep the shooter at bay and ends up using the bat out of anger.

4. The kicker is he probably never called 911. If he was truely in fear, that gun gives your lady time to call the cops.

It goes on and on and on.

I have a family myself. If someone actually broke in my house, YES i would shot them. NO warning shots! If someone broke some windows and then threw the broken window was bringing a gun up to aim... NO Warning Shots! If someone is braking some windows and is just ranting and raving and smashing stuff im going to give the gun to the old lady (while she's dialing 911) and tell her if he comes in shot him untill he hits the ground, and i'm trying to get the a**hole from smashing my stuff. The guy had a bat not a chainsaw

[Pappy]

1. First thing thats being assumed is that the shooter was in fear for his life. He could have been enraged over the destruction of his property and shot his NEIGHBOR out of Anger and Rage not Fear.
Possible ofcourse, but why did he not shoot when he went out the first time with the gun and told them to stop and leave?

It was never stated that the guy or his family where ever threatened. It was also not stated if the guy even tried to enter the building. His full purpose for going over there might have been to smash some material belongings of the shooters and vent.
correct, and i doubt the crime scene details will not be released until the trial if there is one

2. People keep calling him a stranger. He was a NEIGHBOR who was in a long time dispute with the shooter. The words LONG and TIME together mean they knew each other thus he wasn't exactly a stranger.
I think you are confusing the stranger attributes with other hypothetical scenarios

3. The shooter for all we know started the physical aspect of the confrontation and the other guy a little intimidated grabbed his bat to keep the shooter at bay and ends up using the bat out of anger.
The son of the batman retrieved the bat and brought it to his father who then started smashing things. Even if your view was correct, when the man retreated inside his home with a gun, he made the choice to continue the attack. The batman could have also been stating his desire to kill him with the bat...thinsg we dont know haha

4. The kicker is he probably never called 911. If he was truely in fear, that gun gives your lady time to call the cops.
911 was reportedly called 25 minutes before the shooting, it is unclear if anyone from insdide the house made a call and again, we can only speculate

It goes on and on and on.

I have a family myself. If someone actually broke in my house, YES i would shot them. NO warning shots! If someone broke some windows and then threw the broken window was bringing a gun up to aim... NO Warning Shots! If someone is braking some windows and is just ranting and raving and smashing stuff im going to give the gun to the old lady (while she's dialing 911) and tell her if he comes in shot him untill he hits the ground, and i'm trying to get the a**hole from smashing my stuff. The guy had a bat not a chainsaw

Going back outside would have been a mistake, it usually is. A man with a bat can inflict so much damage with one blow that you may not be able to disarm him, and leave your family vulnerable. Sure, your old lady might cap him, but maybe you die as well

[extremeblastr]

Originally posted by reptikes
The guy had a bat not a chainsaw

ever see what a bat can do to someone? kid i went to school with was hit with a bat twice during a fight and still hasn't woken up, been 6 years since it happened. you could easily kill someone with one well placed blow with a bat so i'm gonna let you know right now, you come on my property and attack my things with a weapon like that and then turn it in my direction, well i certainly hope you have decent life insurance.

[extremeblastr]

now don't get me wrong about this i understand there is discretion needed in these situations but nobody NOBODY is going to attack me and/or my family in my home and walk away from it.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by extremeblastr
now don't get me wrong about this i understand there is discretion needed in these situations but nobody NOBODY is going to attack me and/or my family in my home and walk away from it.

I doubt many would disagree if it was that cut and dry. This issue from the first post has alot of what if's and unknowns so I can expect alot of diverse answers and thinking.

A police officer would have shot and killed a man intending to do harm to the officer or others witha bat, we are no higher or lower on the food chain then the police. The only difference is, that on average the police are better and faster at making that decision.

[usp4u]

I keep seeing posts that seem to try to negate the leatality of a friggin baseball bat. Look a couple lines above me....something like "a bat, not a chainsaw".

Are kidding me? I dont care if you don't care about your life. But stop saying that I should not care about my GF vs. a man with a ball bat.

That was an intelligent, well thoughtout argument based in fact up until that comment. Ya know what, if it were for a good enough cause...YES I'm willing to get beat by a ballbat or cut to death by a shainsaw. But, THIS IS A BIG BUT....It's not my choice to decide that my GF or any childeren are willing to die for that same cause. No matter how you twist the situation or change the weapon, the fact remains your DUTY is to protect your family and those who cannot protect themselves, just so happens that to do that....YOU HAVE TO PROTECT YOURSELF. No matter how "icky" that may seem to you.

[matt14c]

Now a days you have to shoot to kill not just shoot to injure or scare. A cousin of a friend of mine is currently being sued by someone who was robbing his home. The homeowner shot him in the leg with a 12 guage. Seen a shadow in the room and grabbed gun turned lights on in room the guy threw a knife and then tried to run and get out a window. Guy had to have leg amputated now sueing for the fact that he cant work again or live a normal lifestyle. Lawyer told my buddies cousin that he is prolly going to lose his case. Now if he would have shot and killed him then nothing happens just the thought in your head that you protected your family. Now if he loses he will be working for the rest of his life to support someone that was robbing his home. Someone explain that!

[reptikes]

Oh NO, i would have never went out there with out something to nuetrilize the bat... a chainsaw would have worked.

[Pappy]

I get where reptikes is coming from, but to me, that is putting your life in grave danger for nothing. Property ofcourse can be replaced (id surely be pissed and conflicted about putting a stop to it as well) but once you were incapacitated if it didnt work out for you, now your family is indeed vunerable even if armed.....nothing ever goes as planned. My thinking would be that if I had to leave my family armed, I probably shouldnt be out there if the threat is that real.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by reptikes
Oh NO, i would have never went out there with out something to nuetrilize the bat... a chainsaw would have worked.

LOL..that would make youtube lol

[reptikes]

Originally posted by matt14c
Now a days you have to shoot to kill not just shoot to injure or scare. A cousin of a friend of mine is currently being sued by someone who was robbing his home. The homeowner shot him in the leg with a 12 guage as he was trying to get out a window with a handful of jewlery. Guy had to have leg amputated now sueing for the fact that he cant work again or live a normal lifestyle. Lawyer told my buddies cousin that he is prolly going to lose his case. Now if he would have shot and killed him then nothing happens just the thought in your head that you protected your family. Now if he loses he will be working for the rest of his life to support someone that was robbing his home. Someone explain that!

Use your freaking brain. The guy was leaving, trying to avoid get out of the situation. If the homeowner would have killed him it would be Jail or Prison Time!

[reptikes]

Originally posted by reptikes
Use your freaking brain. The guy was leaving, trying to avoid get out of the situation. If the homeowner would have killed him it would be Jail or Prison Time!

If anything, Pull him back in the window and drag him threw the house. Leave him go and when he runs start shooting. If he lives your in deep, deep, real deep S**T. and you don't deserve to ever shoot a gun again.:(

[extremeblastr]

Originally posted by reptikes
Use your freaking brain. The guy was leaving, trying to avoid get out of the situation. If the homeowner would have killed him it would be Jail or Prison Time!

agreed, matt you can't shoot someone thats on his way out. dude is leaving and not confronting or threatening you and you take his leg away? of course your pissed he stole from you but i'd rather lose a couple material posessions one night then a quarter of my paycheck for the rest of my life.

[usp4u]

reptike is right...to fire on someone who is fleeing is wrong legally, and frankly, its wrong morally. as folks who wish to keep firearms in their defenese toolbox we must think about how their use will preceived...shooting someone on their way out the door is npt justified. your safety is not is jeopardy.

[Pappy]

Yep, leaving or backing off is a no shoot deal.

Anyone remember the guy from TX who killed a robber who was robbing his neighbors house? They had teh 911 call released....never heard if he was to do jail time or not

[matt14c]

I understand that. But how could a judge or jury really rule in a burgulars favor? Could you? My buddies cousin is 33 with wife and two kids. So in this crap economy your taking away someones life basically. He was charged with no criminal charges only civil. So now he pays for rest of his life most likely for being a bad shot?

[usp4u]

let us not turn this into a circle-jerk....I would like to hear more from the folks who voted "Not Justified"


Fire away folks(no pun intended), this CAN be a good conversation which this site needs.

[Pappy]

My speakers dont work so I hope they are playing the call over the video

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RPuM_XAo2BE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RPuM_XAo2BE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[reptikes]

Originally posted by Pappy
My speakers dont work so I hope they are playing the call over the video

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RPuM_XAo2BE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RPuM_XAo2BE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

My d*mn speakers don't work either! Somebody post whats said.

[usp4u]

Originally posted by matt14c
I understand that. But how could a judge or jury really rule in a burgulars favor? Could you? My buddies cousin is 33 with wife and two kids. So in this crap economy your taking away someones life basically. He was charged with no criminal charges only civil. So now he pays for rest of his life most likely for being a bad shot?
Seemswrong doesn't it ? Unfourtantly it happens often. We live in a very litgeious society and as overdone as it sounds...the lawyers have created this situation, that and judges and juryies who are willing to hear cases so silly. The truth is your right is to protect yourself, the unfortunte part is that you have to know the rules befor you can safely play the "game".

[reptikes]

Originally posted by usp4u
The truth is your right is to protect yourself, the unfortunte part is that you have to know the rules befor you can safely play the "game".

So,So true.

[Pappy]

I am pretty sure he was cleared of all wrong doing in that shooting. Its wrong, but man it sure would put the brakes on alot of robbery it happened more often!

here , this has most if not all of the transcripted call

http://wjz.com/national/joe.horn.shoots.2.570499.html

[usp4u]

Originally posted by Pappy
My speakers dont work so I hope they are playing the call over the video

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RPuM_XAo2BE&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RPuM_XAo2BE&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
A man who did what should've been done...but will go down for it, let this a lesson to all of "How not to handle a situation like that"...his life was NEVER in jeopardy.

ETA:after seeing Pappy's reply: if he got away with it, he is extremely lucky. very lucky he's a Texan.:cool:

[Pappy]

im almost positive he was not charged and was freed immediatley

[Pappy]

And keep in mind, in Texas it IS legal to use deadly force to stop robbery, assault , arson and more. So by the law he was justified to a point...he was not on his property

[reptikes]

Just reading that transcript was intense! Pappy, does that law (using deadly force) in Texas only uphold when its dealing with you and yours or can you act on any crime being commited do you know?

[usp4u]

Exactly, several states have laws which crossover into a sort of "nieghborhood watch with leathality" when dealing with what you can and cannot dot when witnessing a crime in progressive....Texas, and believe Arizona are states who are very leaniant about these instances.

[Pappy]

Originally posted by reptikes
Just reading that transcript was intense! Pappy, does that law (using deadly force) in Texas only uphold when its dealing with you and yours or can you act on any crime being commited do you know?

Not up to speed on the laws in TX, but I believe they are for your property and posessions.....and you still should have to have fear for your life but i could be 100% wrong on that