Waterless coolant

[lynxmann]

Hi guys i found this on another forum, it is waterless coolants that have a boiling point up to 400f.
Rotax have even made it mandatory to use in some of their small aircraft engines.

Take a look:http://www.evanscooling.com/catalog/C_npg1.htm

[TNT]

I could not find the BRP service bullitin. Although this stuff looks pretty interesting I did not see where it claims lowering operating temps, just higher boiling temp than water based coolants. It would take alot more than coolant to change the operating temp of the engine. Capacity of the coolant system , flow rates, pressure, water pump CFM, water line sizes, fuel-air mix, are a few large factor's.

You were asking about ways to by-pass the limp mode and overheating issues....Our DS' have different protective modes as part of the Engine Management System. The Limp mode, ECM automatically sets fault parameters to protect the engine if a component of the fuel system is not working properly.

High temp fault modes: 232-246F @ 10,250 RPM; 248-266F @ 8,750 RPM, and above 266F @ 7000 RMP......The engine light will flash at these values until corrected and throw a coolant fault code in the ECM.

So as you can see our operating temp are not 400 deg, the system won't allow it.

For high performance engines, going to a larger fan and removing the over flow tank above the engine is a good work around.

[Blizzard24]

Some of us old Cannondale owners used Evans in the engines since there was a lot of use of magnesium. Regular antifreeze would react w the mag and corrode and eventually eat away the magnesium parts.
The only choices we could use were Evans or Engine ice (Deionized water)
I dont think Can Am uses anything magnesium and I really dont want my engine to be able to run to 400* without boiling.

I run engine ice w th Race ECU, BRP Race Louvers, motoworks FMI/ Full Exhaust and havent thrown a code even in 90+* weather for 2 hrs and mud caked on the rad.

[lynxmann]

Lets say the ECU did not limit the engine based om the coolant temprature, how hot could the engine run without being damaged?
I would guess oil temprature would be an issue letting the engine run warmer.

I dont know if you guys have been following the threads on the Can Am utillity machines and mainly the 800 engine.

There is some big bore kits that are availible for these for eksample MRRPMs 1000cc pushing 113hp on race gas.

An issue that have come up when the 800 is getting more power is the oil temprature have gone higher then the engine builders liked.
The solution was to build a oil cooler and with this installed not only came the oil temp. down to axeptable levels the engine and coolant temprature was down 20 degrees.

Maybe an oil cooler could help the DS to run cooler and make the engine live longer on those hot days.

[Claas900]

A lot of Cdales do run the Evans. I did at one time but swore it ran hotter, I was told it's just getting rid of more heat that's what your feeling. Well as time has passed I was told that running it on the dyno proved the bike did run about 20 degrees hotter, compared to regular antifreeze. So take it for what its worth.

[TNT]

I went look at some graphs on the physical properties (tensile, compression, yield, and ultimate strength) of steel, aluminum, grey cast iron, typically used in engines. Low-Intermediate alloy steels like 4130 lost about 1-2% of it’s strength from 200-300F when exposed for .5 hour , Aluminum 2024 T6 temper about 5-8%, all showed significant reductions when exposed longer and above 300-400, aluminum drops off fast after 250F. The racers life cycle or time-to-replace is high, so 20F reduction will have little impact, it would be more beneficial to the bike owner that wants 50,000+ miles out of their engine.

Magnesium is highly corrosive and is not recommended around water, is strong to about 300F....you can use chemical conversion coatings, plating, films to protect against corrosion. Today’s 5000 series magnesium aluminum alloys are widely used in cryogenic (cold) applications since they are extremely tough at low temps. . Some have a high resistance to corrosion like 5083 but cracks at 150F.

We have louvers, run ICE, no limp, no thermostat, stock fan, and were running in the low 200’s at our last race with a 495 big bore.

Another big factor here are the race loads placed on the cooling system, pro- vs. Am.

[1Rockey1]

Originally posted by TNT
I went look at some graphs on the physical properties (tensile, compression, yield, and ultimate strength) of steel, aluminum, grey cast iron, typically used in engines. Low-Intermediate alloy steels like 4130 lost about 1-2% of it’s strength from 200-300F when exposed for .5 hour , Aluminum 2024 T6 temper about 5-8%, all showed significant reductions when exposed longer and above 300-400, aluminum drops off fast after 250F. The racers life cycle or time-to-replace is high, so 20F reduction will have little impact, it would be more beneficial to the bike owner that wants 50,000+ miles out of their engine.

Magnesium is highly corrosive and is not recommended around water, is strong to about 300F....you can use chemical conversion coatings, plating, films to protect against corrosion. Today’s 5000 series magnesium aluminum alloys are widely used in cryogenic (cold) applications since they are extremely tough at low temps. . Some have a high resistance to corrosion like 5083 but cracks at 150F.

We have louvers, run ICE, no limp, no thermostat, stock fan, and were running in the low 200’s at our last race with a 495 big bore.

Another big factor here are the race loads placed on the cooling system, pro- vs. Am.

20 degrees F would be more than a marginal difference in a race motor. Its not the degradation of material strength that you should be concerned about. Its the clearance in the piston/cylinder area that is impacted. Piston swelling will cause the vertical lines in the cylinder that you see when you go to rebuild.

[TNT]

Originally posted by 1Rockey1
20 degrees F would be more than a marginal difference in a race motor. Its not the degradation of material strength that you should be concerned about. Its the clearance in the piston/cylinder area that is impacted. Piston swelling will cause the vertical lines in the cylinder that you see when you go to rebuild.

The mechanical properties I noted above considers thermal expanison, notable Yeild strenght the property the material starts to give or creep. As long as you are below those heat treat and temper temps the properties change very little. Goggle MMPDS, look at the thermal expansion change of 2000 series Al and nickle plated mild steel or cast iron @ 20 deg F.

Put an oil cooler on your race DS and see if you get more than a minute more life out of your top end. I'd be surprised if you do. :D

You'd think if it make that big of a difference BRP put one on, thier cheap! Todays engines are designed extremely well from state of the art matl's to higher thermal/geometric tolerances than +/- 20 deg F.

[1Rockey1]

At some temperature the oil film will be burned away and the piston and cylinder surfaces will touch. If your 20 degrees below that point it won't.

Your race engine at full rpm will seize faster than you can mutter the first syllable of your well rehearsed profanities.

[TNT]

Originally posted by 1Rockey1
At some temperature the oil film will be burned away and the piston and cylinder surfaces will touch. If your 20 degrees below that point it won't.

Your race engine at full rpm will seize faster than you can mutter the first syllable of your well rehearsed profanities.

Now your referring to the mechanical properties of oil, go read the thread out here on it that Craig posted, you'll see the engine/oil desiign is more than adequate to +/- 20F at our operating temps, synthetic or petro.

Good thoughts tho...:D

[Blizzard24]

I wouldnt be so concerned about the metal properties, I would be more concerned about the seals, gaskets and other non metallic parts failing. KTM engines are notorious for "melting" internally if over heated too far.

[1Rockey1]

Originally posted by Blizzard24
I wouldnt be so concerned about the metal properties, I would be more concerned about the seals, gaskets and other non metallic parts failing. KTM engines are notorious for "melting" internally if over heated too far.

Good points about the KTM motor. I have heard about guys having tranny gears flake apart from extreme heat. I personally am not worried about it because mine is a trail bike and 300ft drag racer. It only sees wide open for 4.8 seconds. :)

[Blizzard24]

I didnt mean to make it sound like every KTM is going to do it, good solid powerplants, but I spoke to someone whodestroyed the internals of a KTM motor from getting it too hot. Basically everything in the engine/trans was destroyed. I have heard it happen to a few people.

These engines arent meant to run 300*+ (none of them). Things are going to happen if any of them get to that point.