Help me out..KTM 450sx or Can-Am 450mx!!?? [Archive]

ltr311

08-22-2009, 09:10 AM

Ive owned both. Stock for stock there is no comparison. The ktm blows it away. Then you have to fully build the can am motor to hang with the ktm with bolt on and at that point the ktm is way more reliable. ITs lighter, more powerful, and more reliable. I did love my can am. But it took alot of money to make it that way and at that point my ktm would still blow it away in the power aspect.

With the ktm package now with stabilizer, full nerfs, bumpers, exhaust and extra plastics you cant go wrong. Not to mention it can be had for similar price as the can am. Just throw some floats on the stock arms and go run up front. Jetted with the fmf slip on the ktm makes around 51whp 35ftlbs. of reliable power. The can am only does about 47whp with intake and full system, and its 25lbs heavier.

Would I own another can am? hell yes I loved it. With 7k on top of the purchase price I got it close to where I wanted it. But motor was still weak in power.

The can am is gonna run you 8-9k.
The ktm can be had all day for 9-9500k. Go find one.

PeterBenincasa

08-22-2009, 11:08 AM

Well thank you, your information is helping me out, but as for going KTM I could get one for about $8,900, after that price tag I'm barely gonna have money left, Fox floats are another $1,500 that I won't have the money to do for a half year or so, and I heard the ktm stock fronts suck for guys like me, I'm 16 years old and weigh 145 with all my gear, and a very aggressive rider.

As for Can-Am I could buy one( 2010 MX) full and clear for around 6,500 with my hook ups..in which case, yes I would need motor mods, and probably need floats for this bike too.

So I'm still not sure which way to go.

TNT

08-22-2009, 11:54 AM

I’ve owned both. Stock for stock there is no comparison. The ktm blows it away. Then you have to fully build the can am motor to hang with the ktm with bolt on and at that point the ktm is way more reliable.

TNT – Wait a cotton picken minute LOL, if you dump the MSRP difference into the can motor you can equate both equally in HP/TQ. I did it, so has the production race team, motoworks, etc….As far as reliability you owned an 08 there was no 08 MX KTM to compare that to. I’d say the 09 comparison we can at least equate, but due to the lack of 08 KTM MX info we can’t compare enough in a year of development. I’d say KTM has had its problems too in its inaugural year like the rest. 2010 will be a better year for comparing reliability, but it has to be done properly. An accurate reliability study involves a field study sample of equal proportions you can not get from forums or a few buddies. The OEM’s would have to designate equal effectivities (mfg #’s, unit’s x-y), there are actually some very sophisticated cycle test to pre-determine it. Reliability is defined by the Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF, document from a controlled tested sample), Mean Time To Replace (MTTR, per maintenance schedule), and Mean Time Between Maintenance (MTBM, scheduled) and one can associate a cost to it.

It’s lighter, more powerful, and more reliable. I did love my can am. But it took alot of money to make it that way and at that point my ktm would still blow it away in the power aspect.

TNT- Again the MSRP difference will allow equating power-to-weight ratio.

With the ktm package now with stabilizer, full nerfs, bumpers, exhaust and extra plastics you cant go wrong. Not to mention it can be had for similar price as the can am. Just throw some floats on the stock arms and go run up front. Jetted with the fmf slip on the ktm makes around 51whp 35ftlbs. of reliable power. The can am only does about 47whp with intake and full system, and its 25lbs heavier.

TNT - I didn’t know that the can is 25 lbs heavier. Can is what 360 or so wet KTM is 335?...pretty good for a steel frame. besides it's not all about weight, CG and handling as important.

Would I own another can am? hell yes I loved it. With 7k on top of the purchase price I got it close to where I wanted it. But motor was still weak in power.

TNT- I got around $14K in our 09 Can w/ $3k pep’s, $2.5K worth of motor mod’s more torque and hp than a stock KTM, closed loop EFI system a carb can not compare to, $1.5k worth of other accessories, and the nice thing about it it’s design to our preference not from the OEM off the show room floor. Our DS turned out to not lack a thing to any OEM dollar for dollar. Besides, you won’t find that much of a difference dollar for dollar reason is all the OEM’s buy the same materials, have the same mfg’g processes, you may find a little cost difference from a robust cost efficient design, but not worth mentioning since the configuration of most quads on the market is the same. It really boils down to what you like to ride, all quads have strengths and weaknesses money can resolve.

The can am is gonna run you 8-9k.

TNT – Not true depends on sponsors...I got a 09 for 7K otd you can get deals on 09’s this time of year and the racer program for next year will offer incentives I’m sure. Another thing to consider is part availability and cost, last I heard KTM is cutting back production and its quad in 2010, Can is the putting to most revenue in the industry and there seems to be good growth in the after market industry.

The ktm can be had all day for 9-9500k. Go find one.

TNT – Both good quads go get what you like to ride and make it happen!

Seed

08-22-2009, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by TNT
I’ve owned both. Stock for stock there is no comparison. The ktm blows it away. Then you have to fully build the can am motor to hang with the ktm with bolt on and at that point the ktm is way more reliable.

TNT – Wait a cotton picken minute LOL, if you dump the MSRP difference into the can motor you can equate both equally in HP/TQ. I did it, so has the production race team, motoworks, etc….As far as reliability you owned an 08 there was no 08 MX KTM to compare that to. I’d say the 09 comparison we can at least equate but due to the lack of 08 KTM MX info we can’t compare enough in a year of development. I’d say KTM has had its problems too in its inaugural year like the rest. 2010 will be a better year for comparing reliability, but it has to be done properly. An accurate reliability study involves a field study sample of equal proportions you can not get from forums or a few buddies. The OEM’s would have to designate equal effectivities (mfg #’s, unit’s x-y), there are actually some very sophisticated cycle test to pre-determine it. Reliability is defined by the Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF, document from a controlled tested sample), Mean Time To Replace (MTTR, per maintenance schedule), and Mean Time Between Maintenance (MTBM, scheduled) and one can associate a cost to it.

It’s lighter, more powerful, and more reliable. I did love my can am. But it took alot of money to make it that way and at that point my ktm would still blow it away in the power aspect.

TNT- Again the MSRP difference will allow equating power-to-weight ratio.

With the ktm package now with stabilizer, full nerfs, bumpers, exhaust and extra plastics you cant go wrong. Not to mention it can be had for similar price as the can am. Just throw some floats on the stock arms and go run up front. Jetted with the fmf slip on the ktm makes around 51whp 35ftlbs. of reliable power. The can am only does about 47whp with intake and full system, and its 25lbs heavier.

TNT - I didn’t know that the can is 25 lbs heavier. Can is what 360 or so wet KTM is 335?...pretty good for a steel frame. besides it's not all about weight, CG and handling as important.

Would I own another can am? hell yes I loved it. With 7k on top of the purchase price I got it close to where I wanted it. But motor was still weak in power.

TNT- I got around $14K in our 09 Can w/ $3k pep’s, $2.5K worth of motor mod’s more torque and hp than a stock KTM, closed loop EFI system a carb can not compare to, $1.5k worth of other accessories, and the nice thing about it it’s design to our preference not from the OEM off the show room floor. Our DS turned out to not lack a thing to any OEM dollar for dollar. Besides, you won’t find that much of a difference dollar for dollar reason is all the OEM’s buy the same materials, have the same mfg’g processes, you may find a little cost difference from a robust cost efficient design, but not worth mentioning since the configuration of most quads on the market is the same. It really boils down to what you like to ride, all quads have strengths and weaknesses money can resolve.

The can am is gonna run you 8-9k.

TNT – Not true depends on sponsors...I got a 09 for 7K otd you can get deals on 09’s this time of year and the racer program for next year will offer incentives I’m sure. Another thing to consider is part availability and cost, last I heard KTM is cutting back production and its quad in 2010, Can is the putting to most revenue in the industry and there seems to be good growth in the after market industry.

The ktm can be had all day for 9-9500k. Go find one.

TNT – Both good quads go get what you like to ride and make it happen!

I agree with you Terry both to me are very equal. Buy what you like and what feels good to you. Both are very good ATV's and both are race oriented manufactures who take care of there customers and take in racers advice to make their product better. I own a 450 SX and it is a power house and it fit my riding style and felt good to me, & also for what I paid the price was right.

Quadevil

08-22-2009, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by TNT

TNT - I didn’t know that the can is 25 lbs heavier. Can is what 360 or so wet KTM is 335?...pretty good for a steel frame.

Can Am states both "normal" DS, X XC and X MX weigh 349lbs dry. They don't expect us to believe that do they? :rolleyes:

Tell Can-Am to give us the right numbers. X XC and X MX have to be heavier (steel a-arms that are wider, bigger axle, nerfs, rims with beadlocks etc) c'mon Can Am...:ermm:

TNT do us a favor and get us the right numbers (and they must be different). If you do that, i'll start to give more credibility to Can-Am...but until then, not...

TNT

08-22-2009, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Quadevil
Can Am states both "normal" DS, X XC and X MX weigh 349lbs dry. They don't expect us to believe that do they? :rolleyes:

Tell Can-Am to give us the right numbers. X XC and X MX have to be heavier (steel a-arms that are wider, bigger axle, nerfs, rims with beadlocks etc) c'mon Can Am...:ermm:

TNT do us a favor and get us the right numbers (and they must be different). If you do that, i'll start to give more credibility to Can-Am...but until then, not...

08 to 09 design changes from aluminum to steel: Depending on a few factors like the geometry and loads of let’s take the arm’s for example, you can design longer arms out of steel that are lighter than aluminum, I’ve done it on parts. Same thing holds true for composites, a lot of folks think they are always lighter but I’ve done trade studies that show them heavier in some applications. Steel has a much higher Modulus of Elasticity and Yeild Strength so we don’t need as much wall thickness (in some cases) as aluminum for the same config. I notice the 08 geometry of the arms is much, much, more efficient than the 08, they placed the lower shock mount right at the bend up inside the tire for ground clearance which helps dampen out the load the arms sees allowing for a lighter steel design…that’s just one geometrically enhancement to allow for a robust light weight designs. It would be interesting to weigh the 08/09 arms and see if I’m right or wrong. Besides, there are a whole lot more opportunities they may have optimized on that reduced weight. The only way to tell is go weigh one and I remember seeing a post where someone did and it was around 360 wet but don’t hold me to my old memory.

Quadevil

08-22-2009, 02:21 PM

Well even then, don't you think the 3 DS's (normal, XXC and XMX) weigh the same, 349lbs are a lot of coincidence? :D

If this is true, then i have to give big congrats to Can-Am engineers for achieving such a feat...

ltr311

08-22-2009, 02:23 PM

No need to argue over weight. My can am was lightened up with fox shocks, lighter exhaust, and a few things taken off and still weighed 391lbs with 1/2 tank of gas. My ktm with stock everything weighed right at 363lbs with 1/2 a tank.

You can only take the OPINON of one person with a grain of salt. Especially when he doesnt race them and hasnt owned both. You opinion is far from credible TNT. Your an internet guru and thats about it. Ive ridden, raced, wrecked and owned both so dont try to set me straight!

TNT

08-22-2009, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Quadevil
Well even then, don't you think the 3 DS's (normal, XXC and XMX) weigh the same, 349lbs are a lot of coincidence? :D

If this is true, then i have to give big congrats to Can-Am engineers for achieving such a feat...

No, I don't think they all weight the same. I didn't know they published the same weight for all three. :confused:

LTR me set you straight, that be a cold day in he** even if there were a remote possibility....lol! Luv ya bro! :D

florentino

08-22-2009, 03:37 PM

you guys .. forget tires 18s on the rears vs 20s
18s go at 12lbs and 20s go from 17 to 20 lbs some 24 lbs .. you get the idea.. same thing on fronts mx are 1 inch less ..

LT-R450 131

08-22-2009, 05:45 PM

My dealer used a NASCAR like scale and the ktm450sx was almost 15 pounds lighter.

And I personally think you cant go wrong either way. Ds is slow but handles better and ktm is fast but handles like crap lol

You can completely build your motor to make the ds fast and you would need walsh a arms and swinger with aftermarket shocks to make the ktm handled awesome!

If money was no opinion ktm all the way, IMO a built motor with pep/walsh front and rear end and everything else like stabilizer ect. would be as close to a factory ride as you can get and much better than other built bikes but that's JMO

craigmacphee

08-22-2009, 06:50 PM

I could not agree more with the fact that there is a LOT more to going fast than having the fastest quad. Case in point...

My first quad I raced this year was an 08 Raptor 700. Heavy as a tank but I had the motor at 74.67hp on the dyno. Built of course. I had a bad *** holeshot machine. But, after the first turn, it went all down hill from there.

My experience with my Can Am is very limited. I basically have all of the racer program parts on it, and have ran it as it is. I have beaten and been beaten by LTR's, YFZ's and Honda's. I can tell you it handles my fat *** on it quite well. I have broken my rear plastic, and nerf bars on two separate occasions. neither time I wiped out. Not sure what caused either one, but it happened. My only guess on the nerf bars is that I came up a little short on a jump and bottomed out. But...I did not notice the break until a week later. Related??? Who knows.

I have seen (2) different KTM's blow up while racing this year. One of the guys it was his 2nd blow of the year. I also saw one at a fair race. That guy rode like a pro and his machine acted as such. He almost lapped the entire field. So...I know they can run good and hold together.

I really don't think you can go wrong with either choice. My experience with help after the sale has been horrible with Can Am and my dealer. But, that is just me. Lots of guys here have had great luck.

My experience with KTM and their dealers has been good so far. But, I have been dealing with KTM bikes for my boys, not quads.

If I was 16, and at your weight, I think I would go with the Can Am, do the upgrades such as pink wire, air filter, racing ECU, full motoworks exhaust, battery box, etc.... and ride the wheels off it. Put another grand in to it for a head and cam. If you keep your stock bore and stroke, you should not lose much reliability.

LTR gave some great advice. He has owned and raced both, so i would give what he says a lot of weight. Let your pocketbook and heart make the choice for you.

Quadevil

08-22-2009, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by LT-R450 131
ktm is fast but handles like crap lol

This is the funniest thing i heard in 2009 LOOOOOOL

If the SX handles like crap, the other sport quads handle like sh*t lol:rolleyes:

LT-R450 131

08-22-2009, 10:29 PM

It does. The rear end on it is wierd and the shocks are stiff as hell!! Your part of ktmatvhq look at everyone changing the front and rear end on the sx! So I find it funny as hell that you think it's funny and I said it was MY OPINION!

Also a friend of mine races Pro Production and the only reason he didn't get a ktm is because of how it handles the ds does handle way better! But just lacks power where the ktm is strong

Quadevil

08-22-2009, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by LT-R450 131
It does. The rear end on it is wierd and the shocks are stiff as hell!! Your part of ktmatvhq look at everyone changing the front and rear end on the sx! So I find it funny as hell that you think it's funny and I said it was MY OPINION!

Also a friend of mine races Pro Production and the only reason he didn't get a ktm is because of how it handles the ds does handle way better! But just lacks power where the ktm is strong

If you're saying it's your opinion, that's ok but saying it's crap makes it seem like it's a fact to everyone and it's not. Most you can say is you or your friend, don't like the way it handles.

Last weekend i took some laps at a local track on a STOCK 505SX and it was awesome, way better than a LTR, KFX etc
I didn't find the shocks stiff at all, on the contrary, i found it comfortable. i weigh 170lbs...

The rear end was great, it slides when i want and the front end goes to where i point it...

This is MY OPINION and the opinion of 4 friends of mine and lot of other racers so...

Didn't have the chance to ride a DS X MX yet but a friend of mine did and he told me the 505SX handled better. The X MX is a bit more comfortable in the suspension but it rolls a lot in the corners...

TNT

08-23-2009, 08:46 AM

Quadevil what design changes is KTM making next year? Are the parts expensive and hard to get a hold of? It is undoubtable a nice quad.

Quadevil

08-23-2009, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by TNT
Quadevil what design changes is KTM making next year? Are the parts expensive and hard to get a hold of? It is undoubtable a nice quad.

For 2010 ktm is making some changes:
Lower sub-frame, new nerfs, no key or instrument panel, improved wp suspension and some other minor changes...

But this is only in Europe...

ltr311

08-23-2009, 11:16 AM

Dont let those threads on ktmatvhq fool you. People arent saying the front end doesnt work good. It just isnt the best it can be. Everything can be improved upon. Watch those videos of guys racing there ktms on that sight. Does it look to you like it doesnt handle good?? Ill be the first to say Im replacing my arms but thats because Im want the best and want my bike to be the best it can be. Its been awesome up till this point. But The same can be said for the ds mx. yeah it handles good and so does the sx. But I guarantee you will see a ton of guys going different routes and personalizing there quads and riding styles. Its part of the game.

PICK YOU WEAPON and ride!!!!! Thats my saying. I like them all in some way and will miss my ds for sure. Who knows i might buy another one but Im loving my ktm right now.

Ps. On another note. The absolute one thing I did like about the can am over the ktm was how low and skinny the seat is. Some dont like how low it is but for me it made me confident and it fit me good.

RosquistRacer39

08-23-2009, 11:38 AM

I also have been looking at can-ams and what I have noticed is that the more you build the motor the more problems you seem to have. I have read tnts posts on his bike having problems and at the last race how it was overheating the whole time. I love the idea of the can-am. It seems like a great handling bike. I just am not sold on the motor reliability just yet. Once they get that down I would own one but until then I will wait.
I haven't even looked at a KTM but just looking at the front end geometry tells me it can't handle all that well. The front end has little to no rake at all. As far as motor I dont know, never owned one, but the frame is chromoly, not steel, which means it is both light and strong. You should have no problems with that.

If it was me I would get a leftover bike whichever you choose, build the heck out of it, you should get a heck of a deal now. I see brand new bikes selling for 4 grand all over from every manufacture. which leaves 5 grand to build to end up at either msrp on can am or ktm.

TNT

08-23-2009, 01:50 PM

Craig, yeah alot ppl want more power that can’t handle it physically, if you’re not in shape more power can tire you out fast! That’s the fallacy most people think they can win races w/more power and that’s why you see some of these guy’s in great shape w/experience go out on stock quads and beat everyone. That was part of our problem at LL after riding a YAM all this time w/less power the cam really kicked butt! He was really sore after qualifying. That’s ok some times a good a** whooping is what it takes to make you work harder. I’ve been weight training for over 30 years racing is physically VERY demanding; I don’t need to race one to see that. You don’t need big muscles; it’s more stamina and pushing the fatigue limit of the body. There is work-out routines for that many don’t understand.

Quadevil: I find that interesting they are only making the changes in Europe their 2010 projected economic growth is -0.1 compared to the US +.8

Rosquist: I’m not 100% sure yet but I think our problem is from not having our Throttle Position Sensor set to zero, or we got our PC 3 wet(It controls our map/tune/fuel, or we have a bad $15 Coolant Temp Sensor. ... All those except the latter are NOT the motor’s fault. I doubt the coolant temp sensor is it it/s brand new. You hit on a good point tho, in a perfect world I would rather buy the motor from the OEM w/the power I want since they tested designed and built it as an assemble....Anytime we take any motor and redesign it we run the risk of reliability issues, that’s why so many builders across the nation take years to develop, test, motor’s and some that push the limits like us will pay the price in reliability. Theres a fine line knowing where to stop especially at the pro level. I’ll have a PC5 in Monday and we’ll be back on the dyno Tuesday, Bandlands in TX next weekend I think if anyone is going testing it out again. We have stock arms on this quad and my son has rode them all including the KTM, he says the DS is the best handling quad he has rode and ours has plenty of power.

I like both quads too and am considering a KTM to run in Production A, only reason I’d go with our second quad as a Can next season is for xtra parts since we’d take two to the races but if I got a KTM and Can one of em got to run......lol! I hate driving far distances and the quad breaks down and it really sucks when you got to work on the quad instead of focusing on the race.

Seed

08-23-2009, 02:12 PM

Well Terry Im sure with that high paying engineering salary you could buy another Can--Am and pick up a KTM to. LOL. Then you'll have the best of both worlds. I got the KTM out today for about 15 minutes and just did some break in on the gravel road. Can't hit the track for that handle bar bridge is cracked so I'm sticking to flat roads lol. The part comes off back order on the 26th so I should have it by Saturday. But I can tell you in 2 months that whole steering stem and hardware is getting swaped out for a WALSH stem. That handle bar bridge KTM came up with is a joke. Oh well no one said this hobby is cheap ;) lol

Quadevil

08-23-2009, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by TNT
Quadevil: I find that interesting they are only making the changes in Europe their 2010 projected economic growth is -0.1 compared to the US +.8

Yes but economic growth is only one part of the "problem".
What matters most right now is the exchange rate €/$. Dollar is very weak and KTM is losing big money...

The ktm's are selling very well in Europe, for the price of 10 000€ and 11 000€. That means in dollars something like $15 000.
Considering that in the USA the KTM are selling for under 10G, they're losing money...

Another aspect is, dealers in the US have the showroom flooded with 2009 and even 2008 models so inspite of KTM sending new 2010 models and dealers having to dump the prices more on older models, they do not launch a new model and this way the older 2008 and 2009 don't lose to much market value...

Seed

08-23-2009, 02:20 PM

The U.S. is not going to be getting any 2010 models because of the high inventory of the 2009 models left over. Though the 2010 models didn't change enough to even justify getting a new 2010 model anyway. Yes KTM did hit this market at a very bad, but KTM name is traveling very very fast right now in this industry. Give it another year and KTM is going to be a power house over here. Also what is going to help the U.S. Ktm market is having a factory team this year. Which will help them out tremendously esspecially if there factory team wins or is out front alot.

TNT

08-23-2009, 04:08 PM

So KTM is going to have a rig at the races next season? Just when rumor has most of the rest won't.

"As far as motor I dont know, never owned one, but the frame is chromoly, not steel, which means it is both light and strong. You should have no problems with that. "

BTW Rosquis just so you know, Chromolly is an alloy steel, 4000 series......Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/41xx_steel I beleive the quad and auto industry uses 4130, aircraft very little or none. It's density is over 2x aluminum(DS) there is nothing light about it unless the frame is designed well.

TNT

08-23-2009, 04:27 PM

The reason the DS AL frame design is superior is the tubular steel weldments, not the weld itself but the material around the weld looses strength(shot peening can help remove some of the residual internal stresses) from going through a heat cycle often times requiring gussets at some joints. The DS has a high strength pyramid or rectanular extrustion which is ramming material through a die(the cold working and grain direction makes the AL strong) and it's joints are put together with aircraft hi-loks installed in an interference hole that are permanent, no nut, no, bolt, no threads like the YFZr.

The 5/16 hi-lok the DS uses is capable of taking 190,000 lbs of load, we use that big a fastener of major frames on big commercial jets....:D

ltr311

08-23-2009, 04:29 PM

Everyone said ktm wouldnt release 2010 model but someone just bought one on the ktmhq and its different than 09. More mx than last year. no lights, bigger nerfs, no key, etc etc.

I hope ktm blows up the scene next year by signing someone like Joe Byrd. Someone unhappy in there current situation thats a hard rider. Its a guessing game who they will go with. They need to do like Can am and grab a few guys to increase their odds. Can am signed all sorts of guys. They really blew the scene up in the past two years, and Im sure Natalie is gonna stick with them. Money is good.

Seed

08-23-2009, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by ltr311
Everyone said ktm wouldnt release 2010 model but someone just bought one on the ktmhq and its different than 09. More mx than last year. no lights, bigger nerfs, no key, etc etc.

I hope ktm blows up the scene next year by signing someone like Joe Byrd. Someone unhappy in there current situation thats a hard rider. Its a guessing game who they will go with. They need to do like Can am and grab a few guys to increase their odds. Can am signed all sorts of guys. They really blew the scene up in the past two years, and Im sure Natalie is gonna stick with them. Money is good.

If you look close, look at where the guy is located that bought the new 2010 KTM 450 SX, I am also on that forum and saw the post and the guy is in Stockholm, Sweden. I am also wondering who they will sign. Should be a interesting season next year :)

RosquistRacer39

08-24-2009, 02:44 PM

Sorry to jack this thread but tnt, have you ever seen a ds frame broke? I have heard alot breaking (keyword heard) but have not ever seen any proof. Everyone talks bad about them but the idea makes sense to be a stronger setup overall. I would like to get a bike that can hold up to the punishment I put it through, reliability is key for me as I don't have tons of money to just throw around. Right now I have a LTR and love the bike before that I had a yfz. Nothing has broke so far knock on wood, but with my yfz I would just get back to getting fast then something would break causing me to be down for a week or longer depending on when I could get the part. Seat time is the best as far as training, but would I be better off getting say a 400ex to train on?

Blizzard24

08-24-2009, 03:39 PM

Quadevil

08-24-2009, 04:05 PM

I have pics of 2 or 3 DS's with broken frames but i'm not gonna put them here because the topic isn't about this.
What i wanna say is, every frame brakes...

TNT

08-24-2009, 05:40 PM

Originally posted by RosquistRacer39
Sorry to jack this thread but tnt, have you ever seen a ds frame broke? I have heard alot breaking (keyword heard) but have not ever seen any proof. Everyone talks bad about them but the idea makes sense to be a stronger setup overall. I would like to get a bike that can hold up to the punishment I put it through, reliability is key for me as I don't have tons of money to just throw around. Right now I have a LTR and love the bike before that I had a yfz. Nothing has broke so far knock on wood, but with my yfz I would just get back to getting fast then something would break causing me to be down for a week or longer depending on when I could get the part. Seat time is the best as far as training, but would I be better off getting say a 400ex to train on?

Yeah I know all about steel YFZ frames breaking at the welds and reliability issues owned two, we bought an 04-05 running local B class loads and broke it then had to gusset, I don’t how the KTM frames are doing you can get a small sample off those forums. I’m not saying all steel frames need gussets and all aluminum frames are designed well either, it depends on the AL or 4130 design. I heard the pro’s were having some DS issues with ride height from 08 frames bending due to the front cross member, other pro’s like Cody Miller had some issue recently, but those are pro’s those guy’s all have issues due to much higher operating loads, so to compare to them is irrelevant.

The 08 frame I have not seen that many issues out here but again forums give small samples. 09 we or anyone can’t speak for due to the lack of info and even moreso for MX KTM. The DS 08 to 09 design, we have no way to verify the sort of info like wall thickness, alloy, or temper that better the design that BRP engineer’s may have done and not made public, small details like that people can not appreciate or understand I doubt they market. So far from what I have seen the 09 frame seems to be holding up. We did have one 09 from ottagas that was bent out of production, poor dude that sucked but that was isolated. Most am’s running less than national A-class level should have little prob’s and thats being conservative with any frame. IMO aluminum frames are the future. One draw back the DS has I have never liked is the main sections are not replaceable, you can not even buy them last I checked (6 months ago), and that cool fastener I was talking about the Hi-LOK we’ll it’s cool until you have to replace it then you have to break the collar off drift it out then put in an oversize which can cause loading problems with the other surrounding smaller ones. We do this on a regular basis on the line I work on but we know what we are doing....that should be a very rare occurrence anyway.

I’m in the same boat as you tho Ros after dealing with the YAM wanted something reliable. Can scared me too but we got a great deal at the time and I am keeping my fingers crossed. I don’t like all the engine light, fault codes, computer bs at times but then it can be very usefull at other times. You may know this from your LTR. Like at LL we were able to see what temp we were running at you can’t do w/a KTM(no ECM), and alot of other perks the EFI has.

I’ve heard so many things about all quads who’s to say whats best there are so many factors to consider, the HON’s and SUK’s have a good history of reliability but I am sure there are some that would disagree you’ll find that with any quad. As I said you just got to pick a quad you like after doing your homework as you are and make it happen. All quads will have issues none are perfect or everyone would buy it, now if you ask Quadevil he’d disagree the perfect quad is a KTM hands down......lol! Just kidding with ya man.

But ya know any quad you run a practice bike often is going to loose reliability fast. What I’ll do or am considering right now anyway is a race 2010 Can or KTM and practice 09 Can unless this Can gives me alot more problems in my testing phase we are in now.....you can wait if you can more info on the 09 will become available from me and others and KTM.

Sorry another long post I know I think in WAY to much detail....now I got a headache.....lol!:D

RosquistRacer39

08-24-2009, 06:50 PM

Nah dude I like to learn about these things and you speak the truth about what you like and dislike about the bike. You dont sugarcoat it. If your having problems you say what they are. I hate everyone who says the model they bought is the best with no problems at all because I know its not the case. Before I buy a bike I do quite a bit of research and racers are the best people to ask. Thanks again tnt.

Blizzard24

08-24-2009, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Quadevil
I have pics of 2 or 3 DS's with broken frames but i'm not gonna put them here because the topic isn't about this.
What i wanna say is, every frame brakes...

I believe I said every fame under the right conditions will break. Even the mighty Cannondale frame (strongest frame to date). The DS450 frame doesnt break nearly as often as say the TRX450r and doesnt cost nearly as much as the KTM frame if it does break ($2700 for a new KTM frame).

You hate these DS450s as we all can see, why do you continue to come in to these forums and bash it? IF you have a KTM, go enjoy it... you have added absolutely nothing to the DS450 forum except your negative opinion. You dont have a DS and I doubt you have a KTM so your opinon means absolutely nothing.

Quadevil

08-24-2009, 07:49 PM

Originally posted by Blizzard24

You hate these DS450s as we all can see, why do you continue to come in to these forums and bash it? IF you have a KTM, go enjoy it... you have added absolutely nothing to the DS450 forum except your negative opinion. You dont have a DS and I doubt you have a KTM so your opinon means absolutely nothing.

Show me where i said i hate the DS450 man??!
I only came into this topic because it is about KTM also and a guy was saying the handling of the SX is crap and i disagree.

I don't give negative opinions. I just make constructive criticism like for example Can AM saying the normal DS, XXC, XMX all weigh the same. I HATE when they try to make us fools...that you can be sure.

In fact, i help a lot of guys with DS's in the forum from my country: about the wire mod, about the overheating, about the recall's, i inform and help as i can. You don't know me so don't judge me because i won't judge you to.

And if you went to the KTM forums you would see i criticise it as well.

My opinion is worth the same as yours and everybody around here.
End of talk.

PS: oh and just by not posting the pics with the broken frames, i'm helping Can-Am's image, in case you didn't noticed. That's because as i said, every quad brakes so no need to talk about that again and again.
Can-Am is doing their work and i hope they improve their quads more.

TNT

08-24-2009, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by Quadevil
Show me where i said i hate the DS450 man??!
I only came into this topic because it is about KTM also and a guy was saying the handling of the SX is crap and i disagree.

I don't give negative opinions. I just make constructive criticism like for example Can AM saying the normal DS, XXC, XMX all weigh the same. I HATE when they try to make us fools...that you can be sure.

In fact, i help a lot of guys with DS's in the forum from my country: about the wire mod, about the overheating, about the recall's, i inform and help as i can. You don't know me so don't judge me because i won't judge you to.

And if you went to the KTM forums you would see i criticise it as well.

My opinion is worth the same as yours and everybody around here.
End of talk.

PS: oh and just by not posting the pics with the broken frames, i'm helping Can-Am's image, in case you didn't noticed. That's because as i said, every quad brakes so no need to talk about that again and again.
Can-Am is doing their work and i hope they improve their quads more.

What 2010 improvements do they need to make? I think what Blizzard is trying to say is we see more of your negativity on this forum anyway then the others you refer to. I agree with him after watching many of your post (I can pull them if you like) or you can simple look at all your post on this thread about the can, you point out nothing good about it although there are many good things to say. Just the mere fact of stating you have pics of the frame cracks is another negative post. We out here have a lot of money and work invested in our cans, we are owners(or considering it) so we look to each other for help, advice, don’t much care to read opinions from people that don’t currently own the quad and really got no idea. If you got a KTM then offer advice on it, good and bad, but don’t come out here with all KTM good and all Can-am bad we know better.

You seem like a nice smart guy Quadevil, I’m sure you can offer better advice here and KTM sites than criticism.

Heres a sample of what we are talking about........

Originally posted by Quadevil
Can Am states both "normal" DS, X XC and X MX weigh 349lbs dry. They don't expect us to believe that do they? :rolleyes:

Tell Can-Am to give us the right numbers. X XC and X MX have to be heavier (steel a-arms that are wider, bigger axle, nerfs, rims with beadlocks etc) c'mon Can Am...:ermm:

TNT do us a favor and get us the right numbers (and they must be different). If you do that, i'll start to give more credibility to Can-Am...but until then, not...

Originally posted by Quadevil
Well even then, don't you think the 3 DS's (normal, XXC and XMX) weigh the same, 349lbs are a lot of coincidence? :D

If this is true, then i have to give big congrats to Can-Am engineers for achieving such a feat...

Originally posted by Quadevil
This is the funniest thing i heard in 2009 LOOOOOOL

If the SX handles like crap, the other sport quads handle like sh*t lol:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Quadevil
If you're saying it's your opinion, that's ok but saying it's crap makes it seem like it's a fact to everyone and it's not. Most you can say is you or your friend, don't like the way it handles.

Last weekend i took some laps at a local track on a STOCK 505SX and it was awesome, way better than a LTR, KFX etc
I didn't find the shocks stiff at all, on the contrary, i found it comfortable. i weigh 170lbs...

The rear end was great, it slides when i want and the front end goes to where i point it...

This is MY OPINION and the opinion of 4 friends of mine and lot of other racers so...

Didn't have the chance to ride a DS X MX yet but a friend of mine did and he told me the 505SX handled better. The X MX is a bit more comfortable in the suspension but it rolls a lot in the corners...

Originally posted by Quadevil
I have pics of 2 or 3 DS's with broken frames but i'm not gonna put them here because the topic isn't about this.
What i wanna say is, every frame brakes...

Quadevil

08-24-2009, 09:10 PM

Originally posted by TNT
What 2010 improvements do they need to make? I think what Blizzard is trying to say is we see more of your negativity on this forum anyway then the others you refer to. I agree with him after watching many of your post (I can pull them if you like) or you can simple look at all your post on this thread about the can, you point out nothing good about it although there are many good things to say. Just the mere fact of stating you have pics of the frame cracks is another negative post. We out here have a lot of money and work invested in our cans, we are owners(or considering it) so we look to each other for help, advice, don’t much care to read opinions from people that don’t currently own the quad and really got no idea. If you got a KTM then offer advice on it, good and bad, but don’t come out here with all KTM good and all Can-am bad we know better.

You seem like a nice smart guy Quadevil, I’m sure you can offer better advice here and KTM sites than criticism.

Heres a sample of what we are talking about........

The thing is people can only see what i'm saying here, but they don't know what i do in other forums.
In ATVRiders, Can-Am and KTM sub-forums are the ones i participate most because these are the most recent quads and the ones that show more evolution in my opinion.
I'll tell what Can-Am needs to improve in their quads, in my opinion:
- Reduce the roll of the suspension in the corners
- Reduce the seat height
- Better cooling efficiency (they improved in 09's but should do more)
- Better response of the engine in the low rpm's
- Lower the grab bar, it's too high (i'm not kidding)

As i said, i only entered this discussion because i saw KTM in the topic. Most of the time i don't post here because i don't have a DS. I only post when i think i have some arguments.

Do you want some positives about the Can-Am, in my opinion:
Light
Good general quality feel
Style (X MX)
All that innovations like inverted brake calipers (i wish ktm would follow)
Comfort

The fact i mention i have pics of broken frame is not a negative because i didn't put them here. If i came here and post these pictures just to talk bad, that would be negative.
As an example, i posted this in another forums and i love KTM:
http://i30.tinypic.com/ams5k5.jpg
but that doesn't stop me from showing people that sh*t happens...

As a final, i know you're an engineer as i am a mech eng.
So, you know as i that we don't always need to own the things to know how they work or to speak with knowledge.

People always have a tendency to say that "if you don't own it, you don't know nothing about it" and this is wrong my friend. I've helped and showed many things to friends in the forum from my country who have the Can-Am and they didn't have a clue...

But ok, i gave my opinion about this and i'll leave you to continue on the topic.
Cheers

TNT

08-24-2009, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Quadevil
The thing is people can only see what i'm saying here, but they don't know what i do in other forums.
In ATVRiders, Can-Am and KTM sub-forums are the ones i participate most because these are the most recent quads and the ones that show more evolution in my opinion.
I'll tell what Can-Am needs to improve in their quads, in my opinion:
- Reduce the roll of the suspension in the corners
- Reduce the seat height
- Better cooling efficiency (they improved in 09's but should do more)
- Better response of the engine in the low rpm's
- Lower the grab bar, it's too high (i'm not kidding)

As i said, i only entered this discussion because i saw KTM in the topic. Most of the time i don't post here because i don't have a DS. I only post when i think i have some arguments.

Do you want some positives about the Can-Am, in my opinion:
Light
Good general quality feel
Style (X MX)
All that innovations like inverted brake calipers (i wish ktm would follow)
Comfort

The fact i mention i have pics of broken frame is not a negative because i didn't put them here. If i came here and post these pictures just to talk bad, that would be negative.
As an example, i posted this in another forums and i love KTM:
http://i30.tinypic.com/ams5k5.jpg
but that doesn't stop me from showing people that sh*t happens...

As a final, i know you're an engineer as i am a mech eng.
So, you know as i that we don't always need to own the things to know how they work or to speak with knowledge.

People always have a tendency to say that "if you don't own it, you don't know nothing about it" and this is wrong my friend. I've helped and showed many things to friends in the forum from my country who have the Can-Am and they didn't have a clue...

But ok, i gave my opinion about this and i'll leave you to continue on the topic.
Cheers

Ok, thats fair and well put we rest. Hey man I knew you were an Eng I could tell by your logical and well thought out methodical way of thinking.....just don’t forget whos your daddy lol! ......I really got nothing against ya, think your cool guy that knows his stuff. Your right I had a guy say I didn’t ride so I don’t know nuttin....lol! Well TNT (Terry the licensed aircraft mechanic/eng, N Trever the racer/quad mechanic, together we know a few things or two):D

TNT

08-24-2009, 10:04 PM

But yes agree the knowledge you gain in school applies to anything and gives you the ability to see with more insight.

Without ever riding a quad I know more about how it works than most. You can take a look at any quad and know more about it than most people. Thats what education and experience does, it's a good thing and you make lots of money for more quads so go to school and get an education if you can and if you can be grateful. I did and I was very poor, but worked my way up to a mechanic then Engineer. There are grants and scholarships out there it's hard tho I was just talking to a graduate yesterday hired in here from detroit, said it was a bit##!

Quadevil

08-25-2009, 04:22 PM

Fair enough man. I just get a little pissed sometimes when the manufacturers don't give us the right numbers...and overreact a bit, i admit that.

I like to read your posts because i recognize that you use valid arguments and facts to make your point.

Let's continue ontopic :)

craigmacphee

08-28-2009, 05:12 PM

what was the topic anyway??? LOL

TNT

08-29-2009, 12:20 PM

Calling Quadevil :D

Lets say I got a 2010 SX 450 KTM purchased here in the states what all would I have to do to it to make it a competitive Production A class quad, how much $. I take it your in Europe, don't know if you have ever been to a US national but that class is VERY fast and competitive.

I want to know it's strengths and weakness! I already know the DS.

RosquistRacer39

08-29-2009, 03:49 PM

Now, now TNT, I have never seen you provoke a fight ha ha.

ltr311

08-29-2009, 03:54 PM

Not really much. Here is my suggestion for bang for the buck killer setup.

Buy the bike. Comes with stabilizer, nerfs, and slip on.m $8000
For a bit more power Id suggest
cp 13.5 piston $200
web stg2 cams $300 Put you roughly at 56whp 35ftlbs. Plenty

Then add the jb lower arm mod $350 and some fox floast for factory arms. They work perfect with this mod. $900 with fox support program.
Then have rocketron revalve rear to perfection. Stock shock is great just needs to be fine tuned per riders needs/wants. $400.

Nothing else needed and for just under 10k you will have a very very competative reliable setup. Making great power and very light and flickable.

Though I think with a good rider right from the get go you can be competative in a class with nothing but how the bike comes. But no one leaves well enough alone. This is just my opinion and hope it helps to answer your question tnt.

Here are some pics to show you what a decently setup ktm looks like. ill post more updated pics next week, with jb arms and fox all around. Plus a few other little goodies. LOL

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c44/Nismo311/DSC01841.jpghttp://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c44/Nismo311/DSC01840.jpg
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c44/Nismo311/DSC01839.jpg