Jetting HELP please / starting issue

[rigger]

Still fighting a starting issue with my R. This has been about a year long project and I am in the last stage of trying to get her to start.

I think it is jetting.

Electrical all seems to be good. Good spark. CDI is good. I have two and both ran like a champ on another R just this afternoon.

This is what I have for jetting now....

This is on a 36mm pj style Kehien carb.
Motor is an 86 with with a long rod crank and new style piston.
It has had port work but I do not know for what. I think it is ported for low to mid.
FMF pipe, no lid on the air box, UNI filter. Filter and carb are clean.
Sea level in Charleston SC.

Current jetting is a 160 main, needle in the 3rd clip.
I have tried both a 58 and a 52 pilot.
Air screw has been tried at 1-1/2 and 2-1/2 turns out.

Current compresion is at about 195psi. Currently has high test at a 32:1 mix. But most of you guys have suggested that I run race gas at that compression. I just have not tried it yet.

I can not get this thing to fire off at all. When I first put it togther, I did give it a start with a choke and about a 1/4 throttle and it did fire off on the second kick and ran for 5-10 seconds before I shut it down. It has only sputtered a few times since.

Anybody has any thought, please let me have them.

[250r grave yard]

are you using the 86 stator and pulse generater plate if so your timing could be off 86-87 timing is 19 degrees tdc . 88-89 its 21 degrees tdc .

what piston are you talking about do you have a spacer plate for the jug

[rigger]

I am not 100% sure what year the stator and all is. According to case numbers the bottom end is an 86. But who knows for sure what the rest of it really is. Is there anyway I can confirm what the stator really is?

Timming keeps comming back into my mind as well becasue of everything that I have tried.

No spacer plate. Long rod crank and a newer style Wiseco piston in it. This was suppose to be a running motor when it came out of the frame it was in. It was already completely rebuilt but I tore it completely down and went through it anyway. Replaced a few little missing washers and new crank bearings. Old crank bearing were rusty. Everything else looked great. The top end on this motor is not even broke in yet.

I still don't get why it fired up once and not now. It has got to be timming, or jetting.

Only other thing I can think of is maybe it just wont fire on the E10 crap from the gas pump. I work in an outboard shop and that stuff does some weird stuff to outboards.

[86 Quad R]

have you checked the flywheel key? is the plug wet when you remove it? how do the reeds look? is the float lever correct? have you tried removing the plug and kicking it over several times?

there is a remote possibilty that the crank case is flooded a bit. that will prevent it from starting at times.

i personally think that pilot jet is too big and would go down to at least a 45 for starters.

[250r grave yard]

like 86 quad r said your pilot is way to big

stock 86 250r is #150 main and #48 pilot

stock 89 250r is #155 main and #42 pilot

when setting your mixture screw start at 1 1/2 and shouldnt need to go past 2 turns out . lightly seat the mixture screw then mark where the center of the screw slot is on the carb then turn to 1 1/2 turns out and turn it in 1/8 turns till it starts to blend

after you turn the mixture screw to make sure its in a good spot blip the throttle to clear the motor up

oh yea get c-12 or better race gas that could be your problem if the guy tuned it in on c-12 then thats why your having problems tuning it now then if you still have the problem try tuning

[250r grave yard]

what kind of oil is high test is it what the other owner of the motor used

[rigger]

I do not know what it was run on before but I am begining to think that it was never really run. The piston has no carbon build up on it at all and I would say that about 95% of the cross hatching from the last bore is still there.

I will try some smaller pilots and see what happens. I have that crap E10 in it right now and I was wondering if the motor needs race gas to run, part of the problem may be the gas and jetting.

I may try a little smaller pilot and see what happens if I have time to work on it. Next thing I was going to try was get my buddies R from down the street and put them side by side to compare all electrical components. And I also want to check out the fly wheel key as well. If it did slip, that would answer a lot of my non starting issue.

The jetting specs that I have now, I got off of the FMF web site. I am sure they would say to use much fatter jets than needed to to keep somebody from comming back and say that motor burned up becasue of jetting that they said would work.

Keep the ideas comming guys. Thanks a lot.

[Saul76]

Is it backfiring when you try to start it? If so it might be your woodruff is sheared.

Put your piston at TDC and have a look at the timing mark on your flywheel - it should line up with the timing mark on your case.

[1promodfan]

^^^^^^I agree with these guys. It sounds like your pilot jet is way fat!!!

[rigger]

Thanks for your thoughts guys. I just got back to the house with my Buddies R for electrical comparisons so I am going to take a brake from her for tonight.

Everything you guys have come up with are most of the same things that I have thought of as well. It is nice to know we are all on about the same train of thought. Maybe by the end of the weekend, I will have her up a running.

Thanks again for all of your ideas guys. It really is a big help. Hopefully I can help some of you in return.

[IcutMetl]

I have a very similar type of setup as you; overbore with porting, rad valve, FMF pipe, higher compression, but my carb was a 38MM PJ style, and I had awesome luck using a 48 pilot and 175 main, DGH needle on 4th clip.

I too, had troubles jetting at first after my motor was done- I was working with pilot jets in the 50-60 range and even though it would start ok, it wouldn't rev out or accept throttle. Changed pilot to 48, now it practically starts itself and runs like a top!

[250r grave yard]

before you get into tearing the carb back apart go spend what $10 on some race gas you are high on compression , 195 calls for race gas not that e-10 crap
for me anything above 170 i run race gas or a half/half

[rigger]

I got a gallon of race gas this morning. Going to try that and jetting a little more. If those do not help, back to looking at electrical and timming.


It is kind of cool right now to go out in the garage and there are two really cool 250Rs sitting in there. Kind of brings a little smile to your face. These old girls are not dead yet!

[RyanWsly]

Doubt the gas is your problem, mine has about 190psi and I run premium, runs fine with it, I got to messing with heads and gaskets once, one will run on pump gas with 230psi and still won't knock, may not run as well as it could, but it will run. Is your spark plug wet when you pull it? If so I would check your float height and condition of your reeds, PJ style carb you also need to make sure you don't have the choke/idle screwed out too far, it will make it do funny things. Not sure what all you did to this, but if the flywheel key is sheared it may still turn since its a tapered shaft but may be way off on timing, I would check that as suggested. Wet plug or dry plug should tell you a lot.

[rigger]

Checked out timming and keys and all that stuff. It all seems to be good.

I think float height is the problem now. No matter what I do to try and lean it out some, plug is still soaked. Best it ran so far was I forgot to turn the gas back on after a jet change. Almost no fuel in the bowl and it fired up till it ran out of gas. But that was not long.

I have not found a float height on the 36 PJ carb. Does anyone know what it should be or a close starting point or do I just need to play with it?

Also you mentioned about the idle adjustment. Any good starting point on that one as well?

This is really turning into a good learning experiance for me. I have never had to trouble shoot one like this from the ground up with no starting points to really work from. It is kind of agravating but fun at the same time.

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by rigger
Checked out timming and keys and all that stuff. It all seems to be good.

I think float height is the problem now. No matter what I do to try and lean it out some, plug is still soaked. Best it ran so far was I forgot to turn the gas back on after a jet change. Almost no fuel in the bowl and it fired up till it ran out of gas. But that was not long.

I have not found a float height on the 36 PJ carb. Does anyone know what it should be or a close starting point or do I just need to play with it?

Also you mentioned about the idle adjustment. Any good starting point on that one as well?

This is really turning into a good learning experiance for me. I have never had to trouble shoot one like this from the ground up with no starting points to really work from. It is kind of agravating but fun at the same time.

All PJ's are 16mm on the float height, check it. Drop the pilot to 45-48, put a FRESH plug in, make sure the choke/idle is turned almost all the way down, set the air screw between 1 1/2 and 1 3/4, and try to start it.

[rigger]

Well I am still messing with the R and no luck on starting yet.

I pulled the reed cage out just to make sure there were no problems and found a lot of gas and oil. So I turned her up on end and a little over backwards to help wash out some of the oil and gas that was built up in the crank.

I am going to flip her back over after a while, put her back togther and see what happens.

If that does not help, guess I am just going to start trouble shooting from scratch again and see what I am missing.

I can't believe I have not gotten her to start yet. I have never had a machine fight me like this one is.

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 250r grave yard
are you using the 86 stator and pulse generater plate if so your timing could be off 86-87 timing is 19 degrees tdc . 88-89 its 21 degrees tdc .

what piston are you talking about do you have a spacer plate for the jug

so are you saying that if i buy a 88-89 cdi that would improve performace? or if i advance the timing 2 degrees with a advancer it would be the same as a stock 88-89?

[rigger]

I have two CDI's. One is marked as an 89 and the other is a little smaller. I tried both on them on my buddies R and both of them fired and ran just fine on his 86' bottom end.

How can I make sure of what year electrical set up I really have?

The T mark on the fly wheel lines up perfectly with with TDC so I am assuming it is all right.

Any other thoughts on ways I can check what I really have or something else that I am not looking at? All ideas and thoughts are welcome at this moment. I know it is probly going to end up being something really simple that is keeping it from starting.

[250r grave yard]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
so are you saying that if i buy a 88-89 cdi that would improve performace? or if i advance the timing 2 degrees with a advancer it would be the same as a stock 88-89?

all i know is the timing changed between the years dont know if the timing plate for pulse gen, stator or the fly wheel key slot on crank changed . i know the crank is longer on the 88-89 years so the timing had to change some where on the ignition part of it . the pulse gen is your timing of an r so it must be there . cdi changes your revs i believe

[250r grave yard]

Originally posted by rigger
Well I am still messing with the R and no luck on starting yet.

I pulled the reed cage out just to make sure there were no problems and found a lot of gas and oil. So I turned her up on end and a little over backwards to help wash out some of the oil and gas that was built up in the crank.

I am going to flip her back over after a while, put her back togther and see what happens.

If that does not help, guess I am just going to start trouble shooting from scratch again and see what I am missing.

I can't believe I have not gotten her to start yet. I have never had a machine fight me like this one is. sounds like you had to much gas in it it should start now had the same problem once bike was flooded out floats got stuck and i didnt notice till i came back to start her again and wouldnt start . took the plug out parked her on her rear and started to kick the first one got gas on me but that was my problem . check your pulse generator see when it hits the raised piece on the fly wheel thats your timing check to see where the stroke is at when the raised piece is passing the pulse generator

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by 250r grave yard
all i know is the timing changed between the years dont know if the timing plate for pulse gen, stator or the fly wheel key slot on crank changed . i know the crank is longer on the 88-89 years so the timing had to change some where on the ignition part of it . the pulse gen is your timing of an r so it must be there . cdi changes your revs i believe

hmm, thanks man.

[rigger]

Found the problem !


Stator is out. I guess it was almost bad and that is why it was kind of starting and then now it is just done. Got a meter on the wires and starting playing with it some more and found that now it will not ohm out at all, all the way down to the stator it self.

Sucks becasue now I have got to try and find another part that I really do not have money for but at least I know what it is now.

Found a couple of them on ebay. Anybody here got a good one that they would part with? And is there any year change in them that you know of that I need to look out for?

Thanks for all the help and ideas guys.

[86 Quad R]

glad you got it figured out. electrical issues can be a real pain sometimes. you may want to look into the ricky stators for a replacement as opposed to a used one.

[rigger]

Looked at their site and I guess there must be a difference in the 89 compared to other years. I have both CDI boxes, I wonder if the fly wheel would be different as well.

I would love to get a new one but I am not sure my funds are going to allow that right this minute. I have been building this R on a really tight budget and I am really surprised I have gotten to where it is with the money that I have had for it.

If I can pick up a good used one cheap enough, then I will. But if all the used ones end up being close to a new one, I will just get a new one when I can.

If anybody has one, please let me know.

[250r grave yard]

Originally posted by rigger
Looked at their site and I guess there must be a difference in the 89 compared to other years. I have both CDI boxes, I wonder if the fly wheel would be different as well.

I would love to get a new one but I am not sure my funds are going to allow that right this minute. I have been building this R on a really tight budget and I am really surprised I have gotten to where it is with the money that I have had for it.

If I can pick up a good used one cheap enough, then I will. But if all the used ones end up being close to a new one, I will just get a new one when I can.

If anybody has one, please let me know. i have a 86 motor and (3) 89 motor just not the 86 cdi but when i go work on my 89 frame tomorrow ill look to see what changed between the years on the motors

[rigger]

Thanks, that would be a help.

From what I could see in a manual, there is a change in how the wires comming from the pick up run into the CDI. Both of the CDIs that I have are a little different in size but other than that, they look the same.

Must be something to do with the timming change on the 89 motor.