doing alot of thinking

[tyman2395]

Hey guys,
My 400 is really starting to make me mad, let me fill you in. I got the motor bored and stroked, crf450r cam chain and the head studs at the shop for $2000 drove it for about 2 hours and the spark plug blows out, Take it to the local dealer to get heli coiled. Drive it easy for about 3 tanks of gas and change the oil, The bike starts smoking 2 days after. Had it out yesterday the bike stalls out and wont start. So i get it towed home and open the motor. The piston had gouges out of it rings and broke and the cylinder sleeve and all that went into the bottom end only around 8 hours on the motor and it screws up on me. The shop said they put the crf450r cam chain in there and the stock one back in the parts box come to find out that they never did that my crf450 one is in the box and stock is still in the motor. So they lied there. I was wondering what could of caused that to happen? and would the shop be responsible for it because right now they are not even helping. I'm really mad because i paid 2000 and wind up getting a big mess of a motor. Now i wanted to part the bike out but don't wanna get rid off it because i enherited from my uncle who was just like a dad to me and that is all i have left of him. So what should I do guys? thanks, Ty
here are some pics

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/400ex/100_1577.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/400ex/100_1578.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/400ex/100_1579.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/400ex/100_1580.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/400ex/100_1581.jpg

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http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/400ex/100_1583.jpg

[matt14c]

Unfortunately the dealer has no responsibilty at all unless they stated some sort of a warranty prior to service or at the time of pickup. If you really want to keep the bike I would split up that motor you have now. State what happened with the broken sleeve and sell the bottom end and your rocker arms and top end and get a new motor off of ebay or on here. They usually go for about $900 give or take 100 or so. It would prolly save you a bit depending on whats wrong with it down there. Whether you keep it for the sentimental value or not is really something you will have to ask yourself. Whether or not you really want to put or have money for it.

[tyman2395]

Ya i wanna keep it, My local shop said all i need is a new sleeve and piston kit. They are gonna open my bottom end up and clean all the metal out of there buy the looks of it i can't see any but i know there is some in there. And they are gonna put the crf450 cam chain in. They said they will resleeve the cylinder and bore it out to fit the new piston. I would even like to see if the shop that did the motor will send me a new sleeve and piston then i would be happy. My local dealer said prob only like 200 to fix it if i can get the piston and sleeve from the shop. And right now i'm working on the back off a blueberry harvester making 10 bucks an hour (pretty good for around here) so I can afford it. My local dealer said the cylinder sleeve looked a little rounded out so thats what prob made it break.

[aDviSol2y]

Fing shops! I would burn the place down if i spent $2000 for my motor to blow up and they wouldn't fix it for free! Thats why I will not let a shop touch my bike! The charge way to much, and don't pay their mechanics $hit, so your bike gets put together by a pissed off employee. I would find a self employed mechanic that knows his $hit and let him fix it!

[Honda#4]

All the reasons why I dont let a shop touch my quad. A person asks a shop to do this and that and turns out all you get is a mess and a headache and a huge bill in the end.

My advice is try and rebuild a motor by yourself its alot of fun and rewarding plus you know whats going in your motor and you dont end up in a mess.

I hope you get it all sorted out and keep your head up.

[tyman2395]

ya i can work on the motor but never went passed the bottom end. How hard is it to split the cases? thanks

[Honda#4]

Everything is kinda self explanatory in the clymer manual but then you gotta press the crank out which is the main big thing.

My third gear is somewhat going on mine it slips alittle so i'll be looking forward to doing it somethime in the future here, except I dont have any money so it would have to wait.

[Snipe]

I have worked in a few shops in my life and my dad even owns a diesel shop. Every shop I have ever seen, lawn mower to car unless it is under warranty. Once you back the car out the door or the wheels role off the lot its yours. That is just the way shops role, they cannot be held responsible for what drivers could do or not do and say its the mechanics fault. Its just how things are done. Sorry your out the money that really sucks, be nice to them and usually they will make it better in some way or another. If not would end up in a court room. but only way you would win is if you had proof that they didnt do something right, them lieing about the cam chain is evedince A lol.

[cliff400ex]

Man, that sucks. That right there is why I have never been a fan of bike shops. I've also never been a fan of internal engine mods. It takes the reliability factor and flushes it down the toilet. I only get to go to a few GNCC races a year so I want the reliability. Leave it stock. I hate to here about someone losing hard earned money to some punk at a bike shop that doesn't know his ***** from a hole in the ground. Good luck.

[Futurefelon400]

post another pic of the top of ur piston... sumthin is buggin me..... also post a pic of the underside of the cylinderhead. What size motor was this supposed to be after the build? how many MM bore and stroke...? what type of piston and how much compression?? sumthin just seems really fishy about this... I think i know what went wrong.

[tyman2395]

k i will get those pics for you in few mins the bore is 89mm and stroked 4mm. It was supposed to be 460cc's and the piston is a cp racing 11:1 stroker piston

[Futurefelon400]

from the looks of that piston it doesnt even look like an 11:1. it looks like a regular ol' stock piston. I think u got waxed... I wonder if the rings were even gapped properly... a 4mm stroke shouldnt require any piston or cylinder modification... check ur crank, crank bearings and the connecting rod. I think the rings may have cold seized..

[tyman2395]

heres some pics. And you can see my wb header how i made it work with the hindle silencer

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1584.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1585.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1586.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1587.jpg

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http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1589.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1590.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1591.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1592.jpg

[omeeomy]

boy that looks like a pretty dirty carboned up piston for only 8 hours on it
just my .o2 cents worth

[bigbad400]

bad gas or cheap gas will do that in a short amount of time, i think future felon is right, that dont look like the 11:1 440 piston i got in the mail today, it looks like the one i pulled out of my blowed motor (stock) i think you got took by the shop, take a micrometer to it and see if its actually 89mm or not, the piston too. you never got your hd chain either? why the f@#$ did they do that? id go postal on them. thats a cause for free chit right there, you never even got what you paid for and in turn your motor got toasted. but id def check your piston and sleeve to make sure your at 89mm. 85mm is stock. i dont know much about stroker cranks, i had one in a 260 alcohol burning yamaha blaster but it was all done by the pros at c&p machine in Ft. Wayne Indiana. i just rode the piss out of it.

[Futurefelon400]

i need to also see a pic of ur cylinder head. somthin isnt right. i think for some reason the piston may have hit the valves. Either the rod or crank is probly toast. Im still tryin to figure out why ur plug shot out... That really doesnt look like a 11:1 piston. is there a number on the piston anywhere? wiesco pistons have a number right on top. if there is a number, write it down and google it. I bet its not even an 11:1, nor is it a full 89mm.... thats a good starting case with ut local shop. if they told u all that was being done to the motor and u have a descriptive recipt ther'ye gna owe u a fresh motor if all these parts they used were not what u or they specified...

[omeeomy]

i agree do your research
sounds like you got hosed
then go afterthem full bore

[Wheelie]

Did they bore the stock cylinder out to 89mm without installing a sleeve?

It also looks like either it wasn't broken in properly (forged pistons need to be heat cycled), or there wasn't enough piston to cylinder wall clearance.

[z400mayhem]

Thats a bummer man, what shop did you take it to? I also live in your area.

[tyman2395]

hey guys on top of the piston it says hot rods. So i think they put the right piston in but did something elsewhere to do it. The plug blew out because the hole was stripped so now it is heli coiled.

[tyman2395]

milligans cycle works in moncton

[tyman2395]

so last night i was doing some work on my motor. I took the clutch side cover off and the clutch apart under the clutch basket i seen a 10mm bolt so i took it out and i slid a slot out with a little yellow screen. When i looked in the little place all the peices of metal and shavings were there so i cleaned the out. I was wondering if that is the only place metal went to because the pile of metal i got out of it was quite alot

[tyman2395]

here is some more pics

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1593.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1594.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1595.jpg

http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr286/tyman2395/100_1596.jpg

[Wheelie]

I repeat, did they bore the stock cylinder liner to 89mm without installing the supplied sleeve?


Also, were the cases clearanced to allow sufficient heat expansion for the liner. Some aftermarket big bores require the cases to be machined, otherwise once the cylinder expands, it touches the cases and starts to crack.

[tyman2395]

they bored the stock sleeve to 89mm's. And for the machined part i have no clue.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by tyman2395
they bored the stock sleeve to 89mm's. And for the machined part i have no clue.

An 89mm requires an aftermarket liner. If they bored the stock liner to 89mm, then there's your problem. The liner was too thin and broke apart. If you can prove that the stock liner was used, then the shop should be required to fix it at no cost to you. A reputable engine builder should know that the stock liner can't be reliably bored past 88mm.

[bigbad400]

no you should just clean the whole thing, thats were most of it will go but you need to be certain that theres no other chunks in there. it almost looks like they bored out your stock sleeve, those are thin pieces, did they sleeve it or bore it? you cant bore a 440 out of a stock jug and expect it to work, it needs to be sleeved, the walls will be to thin.

did you find a way to make sure you got a 89 mm. thats kinda an important step.

it could be a stock bore stock compression hot rods piston, just cause it says hotrod dont mean its a 11:1 440 piston like you ordered. they messed up on timing chain id think you should be able to get your stuff fixed for free, did you keep a reciept or anything that says they were to put the HD chain in? a detailed reciept will really help you out right now, a detailed estimate or something that says what they were supposed to do to your machine is gonna save you wallet, then you can prove they messed your machine up.

but future felon may have more knowledge than i do about what happened... you need to show a pic of the actual valves, the cylinder head, were your spark plug is in the firing cylinder, the are any of the valves scraped, dinged, or not seating properly?

why would a cp racing piston say hotrods on it? there is a sure sign you didnt get what you ordered... check into this company you had do the work, make them print you a copy of EXACTLY what they DID not what they were told to do what they actually DID to your motor.

[bigbad400]

i would not have them do the work again... see if you can make them pay for your parts and labor at another RELIABLE shop or just do the work yourself, all you need is parts, a clymer and tools. im doing my 440 11:1 on my own.


dont let them use the crank either make them get you all new stuff, it could be slightly tweaked and youll never know until it snaps in two. u should get a decent set of valves too or at least springs it wont run long if your valves are still set up for stock, good springs to make sure they close alll the way every time is a need for a 460 stroker, you will have a fast machine if you have it dont right.

[tyman2395]

thanks guys i am calling them monday morning with the information i got. I'm not letting them rip me off all that money. If i do get a shop to do the work it would deffaintly be bernards up in quebec. They have alll the stuff in stock and do alot of motors and have satisfaction gaurenteed. Thanks again

[thebig450es]

What all do you have in writing?

[mcgrath]

Originally posted by bigbad400
i would not have them do the work again... see if you can make them pay for your parts and labor at another RELIABLE shop or just do the work yourself, all you need is parts, a clymer and tools. im doing my 440 11:1 on my own.


dont let them use the crank either make them get you all new stuff, it could be slightly tweaked and youll never know until it snaps in two. u should get a decent set of valves too or at least springs it wont run long if your valves are still set up for stock, good springs to make sure they close alll the way every time is a need for a 460 stroker, you will have a fast machine if you have it dont right.

ha ha ha good luck with that! That might work if you had a written garuntee AND they couldnt find anything wrong with the motor that you could have caused, and they almost certainly will. I have worked in sled shops and either you are dealing with a shop that will stand behind their work or your dealing with one of the other 95% of the shops out there.That does look like an 11:1 piston too. Good luck but if it doesnt work out Id take on the job on your own. It really isnt that hard to do. Get a clymer manual and do the job one step at a time and its not overwhelming, ask lots of questions and take your time. When your done it will be done right and youll have the pride of having done it yourself.PS theres no such thing as a stupid question.

[TRXRacer1]

You'd be a FOOL to use them again!!! Anyone dumb enough to install a piston into a cylinder that thin shouldn't even be working on a weed wacker. Just looking at it for a split second I knew something was wrong. You seriously need a trustworthy engine builder to inspect all the lower end parts for damage, it's no longer just a matter of cleaning parts. Are you going to trust idiots like this to do that?


Originally posted by mcgrath
ha ha ha good luck with that! That might work if you had a written garuntee AND they couldnt find anything wrong with the motor that you could have caused, and they almost certainly will. I have worked in sled shops and either you are dealing with a shop that will stand behind their work or your dealing with one of the other 95% of the shops out there.That does look like an 11:1 piston too. Good luck but if it doesnt work out Id take on the job on your own. It really isnt that hard to do. Get a clymer manual and do the job one step at a time and its not overwhelming, ask lots of questions and take your time. When your done it will be done right and youll have the pride of having done it yourself.PS theres no such thing as a stupid question.

I'll agree with the ha ha ha for the most part but he can prove that the sleeve required was not installed.

[mcgrath]

yeah I know but they will say he didnt request a 440 sleve and blah blah. Shops dont make money doing things for free, especially shops that dont know what they are doing in the first place, they probably have more call backs on stuff the fix then not.I agree they probably didnt do everything properly but its pretty hard to tell the thickness of sleeves and shape and sizes of pistons on a computer. Oh well all I can say is good luck.

[katch26]

as far as the piston goes doesnt some of the compression get made up by the additional stroke?

[bigbad400]

you may be right on a stroker motor, my 11:1 is nothing like that one the cut on top is different, mine flat, no marks but a number stamped in it, no dome at all its just flat. and the amount of actual 'firing chamber' is how to determine the compression, less chamber = more compression, thats why the xr head gasket is a increase because its a thinner gasket and it lowers the firing chamber to the piston more than stock, raising compression. so in a stroker motor the compression could be made up by the stroke your right. but i wouldnt think that you would gain all the compression needed to make 11:1 from stock of a stroker, the piston should be somewhat made to match the added stroke.


good point out thow.