Another front end question. Take a look and tell me your thoughts.

[rigger]

I posted a question about this a long time ago a couple of you wrote me back and told me to just adjust the arm.

When the bars are cut hard one way, the tie rod hits the bottom of the upper arm on the other side was the question. Well I played with the front end some more a got it to just clear the arm. I took a couple of pictures so that you could see. So tell me if you guys think this is ok to leave or do I need to do something else?

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2532/3816601950_a1b238a9ec_b.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2471/3815788795_80fbea1e5f_b.jpg

What I am not to sure about is how this will affect handling. The upper arm is rolled back a good bit and so is the spendle.

Just trying to work out some of these last minute bugs before getting her out on her first ride.

[Honda 250r 001]

hey man the tie rod goes on the top side of the spindle, not the bottom.

[rigger]

That makes it not work at all.

I did forget to mention before that these are Lonstar Race arms, +2 +1 arms and those are 400EX spendles.

I have a buddy down the street that is setting up the front end on his R as too and he is running into the same thing as me.

[mxduner]

i have the ex with 2+1's like yours, mine does the same thing but BARELY, and when i have it on a stand.Right now on the ground and no buddy on the quad, it has 1/8-14" clearance. see if your is like that. btw on the ground without an engine in it.:D

[RyanWsly]

Honda 250r 001 hey man the tie rod goes on the top side of the spindle, not the bottom.

400ex spindles or 450r spindles go on the bottom. Thought I was taking crazy pills for a minute took a trip to the garage and compared them, didn't look like R spindles, guess I was right. I can tell you this R tie rods attach lower on the spindle, 450r and 400ex bout the center, 250r more at the bottom, I don't know much about this, but possibly the shock length causing this problem? Hopeful someone with more knowledge can help you out on this.

[rigger]

My buddy down the street has the same set up with ASR armson his and it is doing the same thing. I guess it is because of the 400ex spendle having a higher mounting point.

I can adjust the arm to where it does not hit but the arm is rolled back a good bit.

Now my question is, is that ok to leave like that? Does anybody see any major problem with the spendle rolled that far back. It is roughly around 10-12 degrees and I know that is a lot.

[brokenmike]

It looks like you need to adjust your caster.

[derby]

You are using the wrong balljoints on the top... I really can't see the bottom. The spindle/pin on that balljoint is too short. That looks like the moog auto tie rod end balljoint. I would call lonestar and order the correct ones. You could make it work with a set of 86-87 spindles but it will max out your tie rod ends.

[Honda 250r 001]

thats really weird, REally REALLY weird, its gotta be because of the 400ex spindles.

[C41Xracer]

THE SPINDLE IS UPSIDE DOWN, I DID THIS MYSELF

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by C41Xracer
THE SPINDLE IS UPSIDE DOWN, I DID THIS MYSELF

that just might fix the problem. lol

[derby]

Every one uses 400ex spindles so it is not that.

And no the spindle is right side up.

Years ago when asr first started I bought a set of their arms. The asr top a-arms is an exact copy taken from lonestar(the same top arm you have). I wore the original set of balljoints out. So I called them up to order another set. They were sold out of their balljoints but he told me there is a moog replacement that should work. I went to orielly's and bought 4 of these balljoints. And sure enough it did the same as yours. I took it all back apart and the balljoint pin is shorter and a different taper than the pin in the original balljoint. It is just enough to lower the top a-arm where it hits the tie rod when turning. Eventually you will bend the tie rod. I tried running it. The only way to make those balljoints work is to use 86-87 spindles, unbolt the tie rod plate and lower it. But then as I said before you are going to stress the tie rod ends with much steeper angle which will also effect your turning.

With the upper a-arm heim extended like that it will be a weak link. Basically you have rotated the spindle backwards which will give you a little more play with the tie rod at the cost of incorrect front end geometry.

[rigger]

The ball joints I have are the Moog joints. They look just like the ones on my buddies R down the street and his ball joints are the ones that came with his ASR arms. That would make since though. If the upper ball joint is to short, that would lower the arm into the path of the tie rod it self. And if the mounting point on the spendle is lower on the R spendle, that would also make since.

Guess it is time to go play with it a little more. There has got to be a solution here that I just have not found yet.

I just got in the last of the parts that I needed to complete my R so now I can get a better final set up on the front end.

If anybody else has any thoughts on a fix, a cheap fix, please let me know. If I come up with a better solution, I will also post it. \

Thanks

[deathman53]

you need to adjust your caster, that it way off. Notice how the front heim is way out and back is totally in. conpletely wrong. Set the ride height as lsr says, 6-8" from ground w/ you sitting on it. The back needs to sit 1/4-3/4" lower than from. Screw in the front heim ~6 threads and screw out the back ~4. You will be closer. You want to spindle to lean back ~5-7 degrees and then do the camber at 5 degrees. Then adjust the tie-in. Remember to have the bike on the ground and at ride height when dong the caster, camber and tie-in.

[ZSNOW]

yes, having that much caster that bike will handle worse than a stock blaster lol.

why not go back to the 250r spindles? Since the 400ex spindles are whats causing this problem.

[Honda 250r 001]

have you tried turning the spindle the other way? I know other people say that its not upside down but i cant believe that its not. It sure looks from the pic like it would work, and if i remember correctly, the tie rod connects to the 250r spindle at the bottom.

Try this

Turn the spindle upside down and bolt the tie rod on top instead of underneath and see what you get.

im not expert at 400ex spindle conversions, just throwin this out there.

[rigger]

Well they are on right, at least as a 400EX spendle should be mounted.

Guess it can't hurt to try and flip over just to see what happens.

I have heard of others using the 400EX spendles and I think 450R spendles as well. What are these guys doing to make them work? Got to be something that I am missing unless they are just leaving them like I have them set up now.

I am going to spend some time on it tonight. I have the last of my motor parts to put on a few other little things. Then she will be just about ready for a blast around the hood.

[C41Xracer]

are these picks of your 86 R?are you running a 400ex stem?looks like it in the first pick, i wonder if thats the problem

[rigger]

Those pictures are of the 86 R and that is a R steering stem.

I did try to flip the spendles last night but that is not going to work. It was a good idea and worth a try.

I have a few more things to bolt on the R this weekend and then I am going to play more with this front end.

Keep your ideas comming guys. Maybe between all of us, we can come up with a simple solution that does not involve spending any more money. I am flat out in that area.

If anybody has a stock length front shock, could you give me a measurement of center to center on it's mounting points please? I know my front shocks are a little longer than stock but only like a 1/4" I think. And my buddy down the street has almost the same setup with a different set of front shocks and he has the same set up problem. Maybe his shocks are a little long too.

[C41Xracer]

damn it i was wrong again, lol. hope you can figure it out

[05LSR250R]

I run 400ex spindles and +2 Laeger arms! Tierods dont even come close!

[deathman53]

are you using the 400ex tie-rod ends? Or have the right length tie-rods? Did they fit with 250r spindles? 400ex and 250r a-arms are nearly identical, so is the tie-rods. The tie-rod ends I believe are longer.

[twopump78]

swap the left to the right and the right to the left which will make the place where the tie rod mounts lower so it doesn't hit on the a arm.

[rigger]

Well I got it the best I can. It is still not like I would like it to be but I just can not get to be perfect. Only other thing that I think may be causing the problem is front shock length.

Can anyone give front shock length on properly set up R shocks? That is the last thing that I can think of that would cause this. If I compress the front end some, I have no clearance problems at all so it has got to be that.

[derby]

Usually +2's are setup with 16 1/4" to 16 3/4". I have 16 3/4" on my lonestars just like yours with no problems.

[DEERCHOOPER]

jd +2, 450r spindles, moog ball joints, stock 450r tie rods (yep they work with plus 2) 88-89 250r stem, 16 1/2" center to center on the shock bolts. no heims on the arm to frame


http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y232/deerchooper/250r001-2.jpg

[derby]

Originally posted by DEERCHOOPER
jd +2, 450r spindles, moog ball joints, stock 450r tie rods (yep they work with plus 2) 88-89 250r stem, 16 1/2" center to center on the shock bolts. no heims on the arm to frame

The moog balljoints may work on your setup but not the lonestar top race a-arms(which is wider because it is shaped like a bell curve and not and A like standard a-arms). Having the balljoints screwed out like yours are will allow them to bend or break very easy. Screw them in like they are supposed to be, turn the steering to one side and your tie rod clearance with the top a-arm will decrease. The moog balljoints are very poor quality. They stick and will not allow your suspension to return to the normal ride height. Rigger if you would just replace them you would not be having problems with your front end.

[DEERCHOOPER]

they are screwed in all the way on the bottom

[rigger]

Well I agree if the upper ball joint is a different mounting style or has a taller mount. That would allow the upper arm to be picked up making for more clearance for the tie rod.

I will check into a different upper ball joint but just from what I have seen of different ball joints, they all pretty much look the same as far as dimensions. Now I may be wrong on that, but that is just what I have seen. I will check into LS ball joints and see what I can get from them.

Deerchopper's picture looks just like mine with weight off the front end. I have tons of clearance then. The only time they hit is when the front end is off of the ground and you turn hard to the right. The the left side tie ride wants to hit the upper arm. That is the only place that it does it. Everywhere else it looks to be good.