250r out law question

[woodsracer144]

hey, i have a question about when the R was out lawed... what did all happened... i know they has to stop making them but what did the government say that honda couldnt make for or what was the reason for making it stop... like i was thinking

could honda have a trx250r based chassis... change a few things here and there and reproduce this quad? and come back out with a " modded" 250r...

[1promodfan]

I'm sure there are guys up here that can elaborate more than me. But, I know that a lot of tree-huggers that kinda helped get them banned. Honda agreed not to make them anymore. Then there was lawsuits out for guys getting hurt. I know back in the day, a lot of doctors "hated" the 3-wheelers and kinda gave them a bad rep. And the TRX 250R was no exception. Maybe someone has a link to all this??

But, on a brighter side........Neil (C-Leigh Racing) says that he has heard some stuff with 2-stroke being involved.....in a good way. I talked to a guy thats "kinda in the know".......and he has heard some news as well. If things go as they are planned.......I think we all may be happy.

[woodsracer144]

i really think that can am is workin on the e-tech system... i wish neil would say what factorys are working on it... i the only bad or crappy thing is that he 2 stroke stuff will sky rocket in price now... i like being able to rebuild my motor for next to nothing right now!! :macho :p :D

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Up to this point, I to though the tree huggers was at the root cause for them being out of production. But more I hear, they may only be 1/4 of the reason.

Racing plays a big part when it comes to what will be produced in the sport models.
Utility & 4X4 market, that just depends on what the sales are at the end of the year, I'm only guessing at that though.

If you were a CEO for big OEM of ATVs, which would you rather sell, parts ever now & then for a dieing market that they themself are trying to kill or brand new units off the showroom floor at 8 to $10,000 dollars each.

Another thing, was stated every board member sitting on the AMA/ATVA board, was either a dealership owner or a CEO for the big OEMs.
That is who makes decisions when it comes to the racing side of it, who has decided what you will race & spend money on.
Teams & riders have gone from being able to run a 2 stroke engine a season or at least half a season, to rebuilding a 4 stroke engine about every other race. Some high ranking riders have a new engines every race.
Do the math & you'll see whats happening.
Neil

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by C-LEIGH RACING
Up to this point, I to though the tree huggers was at the root cause for them being out of production. But more I hear, they may only be 1/4 of the reason.

Racing plays a big part when it comes to what will be produced in the sport models.
Utility & 4X4 market, that just depends on what the sales are at the end of the year, I'm only guessing at that though.

If you were a CEO for big OEM of ATVs, which would you rather sell, parts ever now & then for a dieing market that they themself are trying to kill or brand new units off the showroom floor at 8 to $10,000 dollars each.

Another thing, was stated every board member sitting on the AMA/ATVA board, was either a dealership owner or a CEO for the big OEMs.
That is who makes decisions when it comes to the racing side of it, who has decided what you will race & spend money on.
Teams & riders have gone from being able to run a 2 stroke engine a season or at least half a season, to rebuilding a 4 stroke engine about every other race. Some high ranking riders have a new engines every race.
Do the math & you'll see whats happening.
Neil

just so i understand this totally... is the " dieing market" the 2 stoke or the 4?

second hasnt the ama atva board kinda hurt people with the new rules since they rebuild them soo much now and its alot more for a 4 stroke to get built?

[deathman53]

the dying market is the 2 stroke. The pro class rules generally don't allow them and they most all race pro production. Honda stopped the 250r in 89(atleast a 90 model was in the works), due to poor sales. Dealerships had them sitting in showrooms until the mid 90's. Suzuki followed with the 500 in 90 and 250 in 92, again, poor sales. 250r parts are being discontinued also, mostly a honda thing so you go out and "upgrade" to a 450. To me, its more like "upgrade" to a maintenance hog and it costs alot more.

The tree huggers had a part with the 2 stroke atv market, honda was expecting ruling of 2 strokes and limiting of them to race tracks and such by 90 and wanted to cut their losses. Suzuki and yamaha continued on with them and took a gamble. Well, the feared moment happened in 08. 250r was never outlawed, nor were trikes. Just phased out, replaced by force with rules from ama/atva.

The extra nail was with the trikes, manufactures stopped them in 87 due to bad press and more fear of lawsuits. Funny, we still have the same problem as back then. Kids, drunk/drugs/inexperienced/double/tripple/lack of safety gear and/or training and just dumb moves on the riders part. Then and now, better than 95% of accidents and injuries could have been prevented with common sense, being sober, kids on the right machines and picking a bike that you can safely ride to your ability. The industry is re-learning this again with the "assault" on UTV's. Those probably will get the reputation and insurance safetly stats as the trikes, if it keeps going the way it is. I remember 3 years ago seeing the tv adds with accidents with utv's and predicted, they were going to be on 60 minutes, dateline and such in the next 2 years. I was wrong, it was 3 years, but same thing.

[atvmxr]

there was most certainly a ban on 3wheelers. dealerships could not sell them starting in 1987. it was the CPSC, same ones that have the ban in place on the youth quads and parts (temporarily moved to be enforced in 2011 from 2009).

the bad press started a downhill trend that drug the sport quads down also..

[woodsracer144]

so if they are going to come back out with a 2 stroke isnt it gonna have to be like a 450? is there anything agains running the 2 stroke in the pro class if they would make the again?

[deathman53]

I would think a current production 2 stroke atv will be able to compete in most pro production classes, the 250r can't because its over 20 years old, hence not a recent production model. If gas gas still made the 300 2 stroke, you'd be able to race it, you might even be able to now in pro production. Ktm was testing a 300 2 stroke atv, didn't hear anything about it recently, I'd think you could race it also. Pro's are using 04/05 trx450r frames in production classes, so I guess the production year would have to be recent or the same model that is currently made, despite changes over the years.

[woodsracer144]

i wonder if they would have the same CC as they did back in the day or be a 450 4 stroke and a 450 2 stroke... the bikes can run a 250f or a 250 2stroke...

[leager-n-ky]

If I remember correctly, before they pushed the 250r out, you could run a 440 four stroke, or a 265 two stroke in the pro class.

[kouki]

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that in the bikes that the 250 four strokes run in the 125 2 stroke class, and the 450 four strokes run with the 250 2 strokes.

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by kouki
Yeah, and I'm pretty sure that in the bikes that the 250 four strokes run in the 125 2 stroke class, and the 450 four strokes run with the 250 2 strokes.

hate to break it to you but you can run up to a 250 CC motor doesnt matter if its a 2 stroke or if its a 4 stroke... in the bikes like yz 250 in the mx lites... no joke i have a friend who raced his SX250 KTM in but the trans was junk and he blew a gear...


when did they change the 440 to a 450? why didnt many people race the 400ex on a factory level? or was there some

[atvmxr]

Originally posted by woodsracer144
hate to break it to you but you can run up to a 250 CC motor doesnt matter if its a 2 stroke or if its a 4 stroke... in the bikes like yz 250 in the mx lites... no joke i have a friend who raced his SX250 KTM in but the trans was junk and he blew a gear...


when did they change the 440 to a 450? why didnt many people race the 400ex on a factory level? or was there some

when yamaha came out, they pushed for the increase to 450 from 440 (first year yfz were 440). at first the national hybrids had to be resleeved to run a smaller piston to make the 440cc from the 450 bike motor. the 440 came from maxing out a 400ex. factory support was only re-introduced with the 450rs a few years ago.

and recently AMA changed the rules to allow same ccs regardless of 2stroke or 4 stroke. IM thinking someone needs to debore a cr500 and go kick some *** in the pro outdoor MX series. :)

[woodsracer144]

Originally posted by atvmxr
when yamaha came out, they pushed for the increase to 450 from 440 (first year yfz were 440). at first the national hybrids had to be resleeved to run a smaller piston to make the 440cc from the 450 bike motor. the 440 came from maxing out a 400ex. factory support was only re-introduced with the 450rs a few years ago.

and recently AMA changed the rules to allow same ccs regardless of 2stroke or 4 stroke. IM thinking someone needs to debore a cr500 and go kick some *** in the pro outdoor MX series. :)

****! just get a trx and put a BB in it and raise hell! i think some one will come out with a FI 450CC 2 stroke

[D Bergstrom]

Originally posted by atvmxr
and recently AMA changed the rules to allow same ccs regardless of 2stroke or 4 stroke. IM thinking someone needs to debore a cr500 and go kick some *** in the pro outdoor MX series. :)

As far as I know, and this relates to AMA Pro motorcross and supercross (bikes not quads.) the 'equal cc" rule does not apply, it is only for AMA amateur competition. So Chad Reed could not get on a 450 cc two stroke and race against a 450 cc four stroke. This is how the rule was when it came out a couple of years ago, maybe it has changed, but I do not think so.

Also, you could not race a CR500 in pro mx or sx, no longer a production machine. Although, Service Honda does produce the CR500AF, I wonder if that would qualify? Hmmm...

How does the cc rule relate to AMA pro quads? Anyone know? I would assume that it would still need to be a prodcution machine, so that pretty much kills all two strokes right there.

Doug

EDIT - I guess the CR500 comment was probably meant to put a CR500 motor in a quad chassis, still not production, not sure if it could happen or not.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Got to be a certian amount of units sold in the US to be able to be ran in the production class.
I think it was like 50 units off the showroom floor.
Neil

[woodsracer144]

so if apex sold at least 50 of the yzf 250 chassis quads would it be production even though they didnt make the motor?