o2 sensor

[monkeyballs]

Has any one ever thought of taking an o2 sensor from a car and using it to tune a quad? Im wondering if this is possible. It would for sure be cheeper then buying a proffesional one....

[Snipe]

Im pretty sure the 400 dont have an oxygen sensor. That would be on a catilac converter style car to monitor oxygen going in and if the flow matches coming out the other side, basicly tells you when the converter plugs up.

[monkeyballs]

no no no I mean, ripping an 02 sensor out of a car.. and then putting it on a rod or something shuv it up the exhaust pipe then rev it at a certain rpm and this will tell you if you need a biger pilot, main, change needle position.......

But the only thing that would be hard to do is tap into it and finde a way to see what its reading..

[Ryanwolfe911]

Yes, if you welded an O2 bung into the exhaust, and hooked it up to an air/fuel ratio gauge, you sure could use it to tune your quad.

Oh and an oxygen sensor doesn't "monitor if the catalytic converter gets plugged up" It monitors catalyst efficency. The material inside of a converter is a 3 way mixture of platinum, and other metals that "scrub" the exhaust, and convert bad for the environment CO, into less harmful Co2.

THe oxygen sensor after a cat, switches voltages at a slower rate than the pre cat O2, thereby telling the ECM that the converter is lighting off properly.

If your catalytic converter started clogging up, you'd know really fast, cause your car wouldn't even idle.

But yeah, if I were to do it, I'd use a Wideband oxygen sensor, and a digital A/F gauge.

[monkeyballs]

Sounds like you know quite the amount. Any who, I was more or less thinking of putting it on a probe not actualy mounting it in the exhaust. Wont it be quite the restriction?

Then yeh, if I actualy got myself the Wideband oxygen sensor, and a digital A/F gauge it would make my life much easyer and my jetting will always be dead on.

I have seen a video of some one using an o2 sensor but he just reved it at 2000rpm then read what (he said that was for the pilot) Then he reved it at like 3k or something and that was for... But even if I get it im not sure how I would use it.. Then if I remember right the correct ratio is 16.5:1?

Thanks

[ngates788]

thats how i did mine i just made an extension to run between the head pipe and slip on but had to fab a new mount to hold the exhaust up.. but used the tuner and i dialed my jetting dead on

[monkeyballs]

Ok I just found this on you tube. Looks pretty sick.. idk if it would be smart.. But I could do that then just put a plug and then I could just screw it in and use the o2 sensor after a mod or.... What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65bWPKid4kY&feature=channel_page

[Ryanwolfe911]

The ideal ratio is 14.7:1, but you'll never hit that. 15:1 is probably as close as you'll get. What I would do is weld in a bung , put the O2 in it for tuning, then remove it and put a pipe plug in the hole that doesn't protrude into the exhaust stream, so as not to cause a restriction, even though I don't think that an oxygen sensor would be that bad of one.

I was a Honda automobile driveability technician and seminar instructor for 12 years. I retired from that, and I am now working at a Honda powersports dealership as the head tech.

Any questions, feel free to ask.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by Ryanwolfe911
The ideal ratio is 14.7:1, but you'll never hit that. 15:1 is probably as close as you'll get....

What's your thinking there? There's no reason the a/f ratio can't be much richer than 15:1.

[marineco]

i think 15:1 dead on, is the most efficient ratio to burn fuel. but that is really hot. if you go a little richer, the extra fuel doesn't get burned, but it does serve to lower the cylinder temp a bit.
Ryanwolfe911 might be right about the 14.7 being the most ideal, i only remember that it is right in that vicinity.

[Ryanwolfe911]

Originally posted by GPracer2500
What's your thinking there? There's no reason the a/f ratio can't be much richer than 15:1.

Of course you can go richer, but why would you want to? Like the person below me said, you'd just be wasting fuel. Yeah, it might have somewhat of a cooling effect on combustion chamber temperature, but really, you're just wasting money.

14.7:1 is the ideal stoichiometric efficiency ratio for complete combustion. Most vehicles attempt to maintain this ratio, and come pretty close, but even some of the cleanest burning Honda's i've smog tested come closer to 15:1.

BTW, 14.7:1 is for sea level. Obviously it would have to be a little richer for higher altitude. I live at 5600ft, and rider regularly between there, and over 11,000 ft. I have to settle for a bike jetted for 7200 ft, kind of in the middle. THe only bad part is my quad runs pig rich at my house. Damn it I want fuel injection. LOL.

[matt14c]

I have about two dozen o2 sensors for 03-07 body style f-150's if someone wants to really try this. You pay shipping and ill send them to ya.

[monkeyballs]

I would love to try this. I realy dont know why no one has done it befor? My friend will be sending me a 450r carb and a extra oil cooler with in a couple weeks. This will work amazingly for tuning the carb :D. Would you also happen to have the gauge?

Im realy looking foward to this. This thing is going 2 be so handy.

Then ryanwolf I wont have any overheating issues if I try to hit the 14:1 ratio? Im on sea level.

And thank every one, for the help.

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by Ryanwolfe911
Of course you can go richer, but why would you want to? Like the person below me said, you'd just be wasting fuel. Yeah, it might have somewhat of a cooling effect on combustion chamber temperature, but really, you're just wasting money.

14.7:1 is the ideal stoichiometric efficiency ratio for complete combustion. Most vehicles attempt to maintain this ratio, and come pretty close, but even some of the cleanest burning Honda's i've smog tested come closer to 15:1.

BTW, 14.7:1 is for sea level. Obviously it would have to be a little richer for higher altitude. I live at 5600ft, and rider regularly between there, and over 11,000 ft. I have to settle for a bike jetted for 7200 ft, kind of in the middle. THe only bad part is my quad runs pig rich at my house. Damn it I want fuel injection. LOL.

Why would you want to? How about for making best power.

Forget smog testing cars. We're talking about performance tuning. It's widely accepted that the target a/f ratio when dyno tuning is in the 13:1 to 14:1 range for the vast majority of engines types. That's where engines produce maximum power. Just about every ATV dyno chart you'll see that has an a/f ratio included will demonstrate this. Most dyno operaters will even have the software include a reference, or "target" line at 13:1 or 13.5:1.

Cars emphasize emissions and fuel mileage. Neither is THE going concern for the average powersport enthusiasts' machine. Those things are usually secondary, if considered at all.


The elevation comment makes no sense. Target a/f ratios don't change with elevation. It's a ratio of fuel and air. The amount of air changes, so that demands the amount of fuel needs to change. But the ratio of the two should remain consistent no matter what the air density.

[GPracer2500]

I use to wonder why engines did not produce their maximum power at stoich a/f ratios. It seemed counter intuitive. Turns out, a primary reason for this relates the the speed at which hydrocarbon/air mixtures burn.

This chart is a collective from separate studies about it. The results are pretty consistent. Slightly richer than stoich mixtures burn faster.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d133/gpracer2500/QinJuLawPrinctionUniv2004AIAA2007-3.jpg

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by monkeyballs
...Would you also happen to have the gauge...

The "gauge" is the important part. I would look into purchasing purpose-made tuning tool such as the units made by Innovate Motorsports, Dynojet's Wideband Commander, or any of half a dozen others (or more?) on the market.

To be sure everything is calibrated correctly and giving you accurate readings I don't think it's as simple as installing the sensor and then hooking up any ole' gauge. A 5-wire wideband O2 sensor needs some active control from circuitry within the gauge/controller.

$0.02

[monkeyballs]

Gpracer could you explain that chart to me? I understand what your trying to say but I dont understand the chart and what the specs are.

Then as for the wideband commander I was thinking of ordering this up from e bay. You think it would work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/52mm-BLUE-DIGITAL-LED-ELECTRONIC-AIR-FUEL-RATIO-GAUGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQ hashZitem518adc8053QQitemZ350222057555QQptZMotorsQ 5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Then did you see the you tube video that I posted? That guy had it hooked up directly to the sensor. Hmmm...

Well thanks take r ez

Bracer Buechli

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by monkeyballs
Gpracer could you explain that chart to me? I understand what your trying to say but I dont understand the chart and what the specs are....

That graph is showing the relationship between mixture strength (a/f ratio) and burn speeds for a typical hydrocarbon (gasoline is made up of a mixture of hundreds of different hydrocarbons).

The Y-axis of the graph (on the left) is the burning speed. The X-axis (along the bottom) is the equivalence ratio. Equivalence ratio is the measure of mixture strength (i.e. lean vs. rich) most often used in chemistry. A 1.0 equivalency ratio = the stoichiometric ratio for any given fuel. With equivalency ratio it doesn't matter what the fuel is or what its stoichiometric ratio actually is--1.0 is always stoich.

Equivalence numbers greater than 1.0 are "rich" while numbers less than 1.0 are "lean". You'll notice the equivalence ratio that corresponds to the highest burn rate is around 1.1. To convert that to an a/f ratio (assuming stoich is 14.7:1) we get ~13.25 as the the fastest burn rate for a typical hydrocarbon.

That fits VERY nicely with the a/f ratios that have time and time again been demonstrated as best power a/f ratios. If it's a coincidence, I'll be damned.

Note: Don't confuse equivalence ratio with lambda. Lambda values are usually associated with O2 sensor interpretation. Equiv ratio and lambda are essentially the same thing but are the inverse of one another. Equivalence ratios greater than 1.0 are rich mixtures while lambda values greater than 1.0 are lean mixtures.

[F-16Guy]

I didn't think school started back up until August?? :blah: :D

I understood about 10% of that post.

[monkeyballs]

To me, this is school. Keep it comming. I understand most of it :D And what do you think about that gauge gpracer?

Thanks

Bracer Buechli

[GPracer2500]

Originally posted by monkeyballs
....Then as for the wideband commander I was thinking of ordering this up from e bay. You think it would work? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/52mm-BLUE-DIGITAL-LED-ELECTRONIC-AIR-FUEL-RATIO-GAUGE_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQ hashZitem518adc8053QQitemZ350222057555QQptZMotorsQ 5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

Then did you see the you tube video that I posted? That guy had it hooked up directly to the sensor. Hmmm...

Well thanks take r ez

Bracer Buechli

Don't bother with that ebay gauge. It's for narrowband O2 sensors, not wideband. All a narrowband setup is going to tell you is if you are above or below stoich. They are sensitive very close to stoich but quickly loose the ability to tell you anything else.

Like this:
(old link gone)
http://justskylines.com/skyline/knowledgebase/images/turbo/airfuel/narrowbando2.jpg

Once you get outside of around 14.25 to 15.25 the sensor can't tell you the actual a/f ratio. And even within that range, the resolution is poor. Narrowband O2 sensors are more like a switch that bounces back and forth between richer than stoich and leaner than stoich. They are incapable of detailing much of anything concerning how far above or below stoich you are. That ebay gauge may display a number from 10:1 to 20:1 but will only be accurate for determining if greater than or less than 14.7. That would only be marginally useful.

You want a wideband setup. Only wideband can give you accurate info over a much more useful range of a/f ratios.

Like this:

(old link gone)
http://justskylines.com/skyline/knowledgebase/images/turbo/airfuel/widebando2.jpg



That AEM UEGO (http://www.aempower.com/ViewCategory.aspx?CategoryID=67) system is a wideband setup much like many of the wideband setups out there. Yes, the gauge unit is connected directly to the sensor. But that's not any ole' POS gauge (like the ebay one). Like any wideband O2 sensor arrangement, somewhere in the system there is circuitry to control the O2 sensor heater and other things. For aftermarket setups, those "electronic brains and controls" are often housed in the gauge. Other setups may have a separate control box that is actually communicating with the sensor and then outputting data to a separate gauge. I'd guess those arrangements are more prevalent for higher end automotive setups.

$250 is about as inexpensive as a wideband setup is likely to be. At least I've not seen any wideband setups for much less than that.

[GPracer2500]

FYI, what an O2 sensor actually outputs is a voltage. The gauge that is interpreting that data usually displays an a/f ratio. The thing that decides what voltage = what a/f ratio is the result of programming by the manufacture of the gauge.

[zrpilot]

FWIW: I had a bung welded into the collector of my exhaust pipe just below where the two headers met and installed an Innovate LM-1. Worked great, but had to have power supplied to it to work and because I did not wnat it on there permanently I rigged up a back pack to carry a battery to supplt the needed power.

All this was cool for a while then I got tired of tweaking the A/F ratio and just rode the darn thing.

Sometimes, IMO, too much technology prevents me from doing what I bought the darn thing to do.

[ngates788]

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[ngates788]

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[ngates788]

for power we just ran a wire off the battery terminals.. temporary power supply and not really any modification

[Whit11b]

Digitron USA makes a line of instruments for ATVs. I used their products when I was kart racing. They got setups for tach, cylinder head temp, exhaust gas temp, oil temp, and MPH. They have a few different models that are just live display, max recall, and full data logging. They were top of the line products when I was using them a few years ago.

Here is a link for model and prices http://www.digatronusa.com/pricing-atvs.shtml#50

I have to agree with the old saying "They run best just before they blow up or burn down."

[monkeyballs]

Originally posted by ngates788
for power we just ran a wire off the battery terminals.. temporary power supply and not really any modification
Awsome Did you finde there was much of a diff once it was tuned to perfection? Then how much did you pay for those things? Thanks take it ez

[ngates788]

it definately helped a bunch by eliminating half of the guess work of jetting this thing. i could tell exactly where i was running rich or lean and how bad it was. in my case i was running rich around the mid and top end, right around 10.3-11.4 afr. swapped out the jets for smaller ones and played around with the f/a screw for a bit and she was running like a champ.
as for the instruments i didnt have to pay a cent for them well technically kinda borrowed them. my brother goes to school at the university of toledo and is on the fsae team and brought them home for a few weeks. the exhaust insert he made special so i kinda lucked out a bit when it came to this.