New Exhaust here... on... WOW!!!

[MtnEX]

Well, I think most of you guys already know that I don't believe in the myths of 4 stroke exhaust as you guys know it...

I come from the days of true tuned exhausts that created real performance.
(The 2 stroke days)

I've wasted my money on the big-name 4 stroke exhausts... and know they are non-performers.... like those non-sporting show dogs.... look good, sound good, but have no bite.

Just "sounding" more powerful doesn't 'do it' for me.

So you know it has got to be something totally different to sell me on trying it.

So here is a teaser photo to catch some interest...

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/009-1.jpg

Now... if you want to learn the real truth about 4 stroke exhaust and getting real performance... this is where you'll get the truth.

[Fred55]

Those chambers are just to decrease sound at certain RPMs, you know that right? But you are right in the the sense that the header length and diameter is where all the power is made, not the muffler.

[JParisi48]

Originally posted by Fred55
Those chambers are just to decrease sound at certain RPMs, you know that right? But you are right in the the sense that the header length and diameter is where all the power is made, not the muffler.

yep, is it a dasa head?

[631kfx400]

its the new jardine full exhaust. its like the dasa too keep decibels down for racing

[MtnEX]

I guess we have a few more like me that are here and there too?

LOL...

Here is hoping this thread doesn't run off in left field like that one did.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Fred55
Those chambers are just to decrease sound at certain RPMs, you know that right? But you are right in the the sense that the header length and diameter is where all the power is made, not the muffler.

There is more to it than that Fred...

Those chambers have many functions and work differently, depending on how they are tuned.

Sound reduction is only on function of them. They are not tuned to decrease sound at certain RPM. In tuning, they are tuned to CANCEL certain sound waves, which lowers sound, but also has other effects.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by 631kfx400
its the new jardine full exhaust. its like the dasa too keep decibels down for racing

What is the dasa dB rating?
Never looked it up... Dasa never interested me.


I would without knowing, say instead of what you said...

That the Jardine is likely to be able to flow more, and produce more, yet at a lower sound level.

The bonus of the resonator is sound reduction without restriction. A more open and louder and less restrictive overall system can be made, yet still hit 99 dB because of the noise cancellation of the resonator.

pics of it mounted?

[k4f5x0r]

how has dasa not interested you? its the best exhaust out for the kfx450. makes the most power AND torque and has the best fit and finish of all the companies. FuelAtv did a shoutout on kfx450hq.com.


i think my dasa is like 102db's at 3750 RPM. maybe 104 not too sure though.

[lilguy450]

dude your on all the forums posting this lets see some dyno results before you start talking then maybe people will believe you

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by honda4life818
pics of it mounted?

Yeah... I'll get some up for you.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by k4f5x0r
how has dasa not interested you? its the best exhaust out for the kfx450. makes the most power AND torque and has the best fit and finish of all the companies. FuelAtv did a shoutout on kfx450hq.com.


i think my dasa is like 102db's at 3750 RPM. maybe 104 not too sure though.

Yeah, but you gotta understand I know a guy who did one on another quad and I didn't think that much of his gains.... and also, I've owned other aftermarket 4 stroke exhausts and have not been impressed with any of them... I guess because a little gain doesn't seem like much to a guy like me who has experienced exhaust gains on 2 strokes... ya know?


I will have to look up that shootout just for the heck of it though... I'm curious to know what kind of exhaust gains are being posted.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by lilguy450
dude your on all the forums posting this lets see some dyno results before you start talking then maybe people will believe you

I'm going to start work on getting some dyno results in the morning.....

[MtnEX]

Here are a few of the install pics...

Some head pipe detail...

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5387.jpg

Mid pipe mounting & exit size

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5388.jpg

The megaphone detail of the mid pipe

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5389.jpg

Back after a run to check for needed adjustments and to ad the shields

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5394.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5395.jpg

And finally the final product with my custom shields off my stocker

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5397.jpg

Sorry that's the only finished view I have right now

[MtnEX]

And since this seems to be a much better thread than the other active one at this time... here are some comparo-photos I took of it and the stocker, so you have something to judge it by...

Head pipes stacked up

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5377.jpg

Whole pipes laying beside each other

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5378.jpg

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5379.jpg

And the diameter difference from another prospective... lol

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/CIMG5380.jpg

And in one of the other threads someone said the resonator was a gimmick, which doesn't deserve response... but here is a shot from inside that shows it's not...

http://i478.photobucket.com/albums/rr149/Duster_2-400s/Jardine%20Exhaust/0152.jpg

[k4f5x0r]

Originally posted by lilguy450
dude your on all the forums posting this lets see some dyno results before you start talking then maybe people will believe you

http://www.kfx450hq.com/forums/dyno-tuning-room/141-real-kfx450-dyno-info.html


there you go smartass. all available pipes tested at the time, 13in Dasa came out ontop. most pipes are all within mere decimals of eachother but Dasa did make the most HP.

Jardine was not tested as it wasnt available at the time but im sure it would be right up there with the top pipes. ive never heard bad from their company.

[631kfx400]

two brothers is up there too, mine gave an amazing hp gain(full exhaust)

[08mxkfx]

That dyno test that fuel did was a joke. He only posted the numbers never showed any graphs to prove the numbers. I would choose curtis sparks over dasa any day since there was only like a .4 hp difference and the curtis sparks pipe look so much nicer then that huge heavy dasa pipe that cost alot more! And as for this jardine exhuast it look pretty cool but im pretty sure that the only reason for the can is for sound and it doesnt change any hp. As for you posting dyno results that would be useless cause every dyno reads difference so unless you have another exhaust to compare it to it will be useless.

[Tommy Warren]

this thread is a joke right?:rolleyes:

[631kfx400]

Originally posted by Tommy Warren
this thread is a joke right?:rolleyes:
nope your honda is:rolleyes:

[Sn0ka]

found : eb...
http://img19.myimg.de/tnDSC03500adb4c.jpg

2 dB quietly and more torque

haveFun

[k4f5x0r]

Originally posted by 08mxkfx
That dyno test that fuel did was a joke. He only posted the numbers never showed any graphs to prove the numbers. I would choose curtis sparks over dasa any day since there was only like a .4 hp difference and the curtis sparks pipe look so much nicer then that huge heavy dasa pipe that cost alot more! And as for this jardine exhuast it look pretty cool but im pretty sure that the only reason for the can is for sound and it doesnt change any hp. As for you posting dyno results that would be useless cause every dyno reads difference so unless you have another exhaust to compare it to it will be useless.


like i said they were all very close. And you must have never held the dasa exhaust. it is EXTREMELY light. plus since its ceramic coated on the muffler i can have a 15 lap moto and touch the exhaust muffler right after and its only slightly warm.

IMO i dont like sparks exhaust because i dont like the way they sound and 2 i hate crome. i like to have as little shiny parts as possible :p

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by Sn0ka
found : eb...
http://img19.myimg.de/tnDSC03500adb4c.jpg

2 dB quietly and more torque

haveFun

Is that a custom job?... Or is Yoshi making that factory?

Where did you find that pic?... Or is it yours?

[coryatver]

I was wondering when they were going to FINALLY start Selling these headers with resonator's like the mx guys are running. Quieter exhuast and same if not better performance is awesome. I will buy one if they make it for the Honda

[lilguy450]

whats the name calling for? im not trying to knock anyone all im saying is that you cant just go and say oh this pipe pipe is better then that pipe and not show any results and expect everyone to beleive you. ive seen all those comparisons and im not gonna sit here and argue over the internet about what you or me think is right oh and im not the only one asking for dyno results

[k4f5x0r]

sorry about that i was in a bad mood. ive posted them a few times i just wish theyd get pinned at the top under a dyno topic or something.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by coryatver
I was wondering when they were going to FINALLY start Selling these headers with resonator's like the mx guys are running. Quieter exhuast and same if not better performance is awesome. I will buy one if they make it for the Honda

Jardine does make it for Honda.

Thanks for the post too... because the other thread is a field day... so it's refreshing to see a post from someone who in not behind the times.

As stated earlier, the mx bikes always run in front of quads on development... and most of it is rejected by the quad guys until long after it's implemented on quads. Then one day it suddenly becomes the best thing since sliced bread or adding the 4h wheel.

That has never made much sense to me :confused:


Get yourself a Jardine RT99 for your Honda then... you'll be impressed.

[MtnEX]

Also... some guys here have seen both threads...

I was going to do a dyno on just this pipe, but after digging a little deeper into the subject I realized it was pointless.

The numbers vary... and nobody is doing a dyno of a stock machine, just exhaust.

They are doing all kinds of crap... dyno tuning fuel controllers, making multiple runs and taking the best numbers... running dynos on light slicks.

I realized... "what is the point?"

I DID COME UP WITH ONE DYNO SHEET FOR IT THOUGH.
Here is what I wrote in the other thread...


I will share this with you though... and don't try giving me grief on it, because I am past the point of caring...

I pulled my contacts and got a dyno sheet on this exhaust yesterday. Nothing all fancy like you guys are doing to get the best numbers... Just the Jardine RT99 slapped on the stock bike with the stock map and slapped on the dyno with knobbies for a run to see what it does... not a best of 5 or whatever...

It ran HP numbers in the 40's and torque numbers in the 30's without multiple runs to record the best.
A very modest approach I feel... and modest numbers... the seat of my pants and arms scream it's true...

The curves look great to me, right off the bottom, all the way to 10,100.

The HP is an impressive linear steep climb up over 40hp and 7,000 RPM and once it hits the peak, it's pretty linear straight across within 2hp to at least 9,500 RPM. Looking at the whole curve, it's a steep climb up a mountain and a plateu across the top.

As for the torque curve... the intersection of the torque and HP is at 29 and 5,200 PRM. So you know the torque jumps into the 30's early. It stays up there too, just almost peak HP RPM too. Looking at the whole curve, its a steep climb up a mountain, and rounded top, and a gentle decent.

I knew I could tell a big difference all the way through... in how it pulled right off the bottom and how it did not seem to wind up so quick and run out of breath. On the stock pipe it did not pull like this, and winding high on top it could almost fool me into thinking I didn't hit the next gear when I shifted.

(edit)

I'm saying without a doubt the Jardine RT99 is pulling 40's HP and 30's torque... spark arrestor in... 99 dB... on a stock bike... stock map... stock intake... airbox lid on... on knobbies.

So I am not bothering with a dyno, even though I feel sure I can pull better numbers than I'm seeing... on mine, on the same setup... just based on what I feel riding the thing.

I already know it stands at least where I thought it did... and I have nothing I need to prove.

I just wish the guys over there understood that if I meant to hurt anyone's feelings or pride, I'd slap on just a fuel controller, head to a dyno for a tune and then post some "mine's bigger than yours" sheets.... then add an intake too, and post some more pain.

But that's not what I am about.

[Sn0ka]

@MtnEX

it is a custom job and works great !!
look@the new ktm 450sx-F 2010 dirtbike ***stock**exhaust
the same principle

http://www.ktm.com/fileadmin/swf/productspecials/uploads/450_sx-f_stripped.jpg

Akrapovic Open Evolution Exhaust the same principle

http://www.morepoweracing.com/uploads/images_versions_large/196094.gif

Akrapovic

Our patented additional chamber helps to reduce noise emission and provides better power and torque at low rpm range.


havefun

[MtnEX]

Thanks SnOka...

That's good stuff there.

I for one am glad to see tuned exhaust popping up for 4 strokes for sure... it's about time 4 stroke exhaust actually did something performance wise that is worth the price.

I only see 2 downers to it...

1 - Most people don't understand it
2 - It sort of lets you know they have twisted all they can out of the 450 mills and plateaued.


Myself, I praise Jardine and stick by them because they are the only ones with these set up as "production" for ATV's. It's good not to have to wait any longer for it to trickle down from the bikes to ATV's. That almost never happens.

[MtnEX]

I'll try to make time to get more in-depth with the review and fill in more detail.

[MtnEX]

OK, now for the more in-depth explanation of how this exhaust system works.... and I want to try to do it without getting too technical.... which may cut into full understanding... but at least everyone can understand to a degree...


Lets start with noise reduction since everyone seems to agree it does this...

[MtnEX]

One of the functions of the resonator is to reduce noise. But more important than what it does here, is how it does it...


Simply put, a resonator can be tuned to many things... sound, pressure, etc... But let's stick to sound and say it can be tuned like a musical instrument.


The important part is here... the resonator does not muffle or baffle the sound, so NO RESTRICTION is involved in the noise reduction.

In fact, the noise reduction happens to some extent in and by the chamber.... and the chamber is ADDITIONAL space for flow, NOT a sort of baffle that cuts flow.

It is tuned to a certain noise frequency... specifically the ones that are least desired for multiple reasons.

Being tuned, what it does is create equal identical tones, but opposite...

What happens is that it forces these two sound waves to collide with each other.

The waves are the physical traveling energy of the sounds that travel out in the form of energy waves from the source, and these waves are the energy that moves our ear drums so we hear the sound.

So what happens is, when these two waves collide this way, since they are equal, they cancel each other out.

))))))))))))|((((((((((((

When they hit, the waves cancel out and simply are no more.... so they do no travel, and the sound is no more.

[MtnEX]

In the end... in this case, 99 dB is the benchmark.

I can tell you that there has to be a significant amount muffling/baffling/restriction in place to cut the exhaust note noise level of the 450 engine down to 99 dB.

An exhaust header, mid pipe and muffler has to be rather restrictive to do that.

Something even slightly more free flowing than the stock 89 dB exhaust is QUICKLY going to leap beyond 99 dB. Even a fairly tight slip-on muffler can.

The noise reduction of the resonator allows Jardine to use heavily megaphone shaped header and mid pipe with nice transitions, larger diameter, more volume and more flow.... and also use a basic straight through design muffler with no baffle plates, or turn chambers... just a basic straight through glass pack with a large diameter entrance, passage, and exit.

Yet, the end noise level is only 99 dB.

Without the resonator, this exhaust would be at or beyond a unrestricted full race exhaust.

So the end result (from the resonator out) is unrestricted flow to the level of full on unrestricted race exhaust... and all of the performance associated with it.... yet you still are able to use it in restricted events and areas.

And if you are somewhere that you can go beyond that, you can also chuck the spark arrestor, end cap, or even the whole muffler if you want....

Yes I ran it just a minute before installing the muffler... and no it is not unbearable....

[MtnEX]

Beyond the function of noise reduction, and beyond the gains it allows from the resonator out.... yes there are also additional gains just from the resonator itself...

Or if it makes it easier to understand... we have discussed the performance aspects from beyond the resonator out.... and now we will discuss the gains from the intake to the resonator itself...


Understand first off that the resonator is a real chamber.... an actual chamber of additional space mounted to the header. In this respect, you can consider it in many ways... One being space, two being additional header length 'in effect, and three also being somewhat 'akin' to the 2 stroke expansion chamber....

It is a chamber tuned to not only work with the flow of waves and sounds... but is also tuned for the flow of gasses, and also provides additional space for them to be drawn into or escape into.... considering the laws of pressure and vacuum...

Now that the aspects of space, flow, pressure and vacuum have been established.... absorb that and we will go into how it functions to produce gain...

[MtnEX]

OK... bare with me as I am typing this in the wee hours of the morning....

But after running both without and with an exhaust with a resonator, and experiencing first hand the end results... here is my theory on how it functions and creates gain....


The first concept to grasp is that the engine is a big PUMP....and in rotation it draws in and pumps out... and in the case of the 4 stroke, it uses pistons and mechanical valves to do so...

I think everyone understands the concept of intake.... and the fact that to a point, if you can increase intake flow, you can increase end result output.....

Now, in the 4 stroke engine, there is a point in intake action where there is a duration where both the intake and exhaust valves are open at the same time, much like the ports are on a 2 stroke.

But a 4 stroke differs.... in this small window of time, it is really important NOT to have BACKPRESSURE rushing back through the open exhaust valve while the intake valve is open and the piston action is sucking the air/fuel mixture into the cylinder.

Needing back pressure on a 4 stroke is a myth... unless you have some weird modified valve timing...

If backpressure is present, it impedes the engine's ability do draw in fresh cool air and fuel... and instead reduces what the engine is able to draw in, and contaminates the mixture with carbon monoxide I imagine.

End result... less fresh oyxgen and less fuel drawn in... and mixed with exhaust, resulting in less of a charge and less of a combustible mixture.

Instead, what you want to do, is eliminate backpressure and instead replace it with free flow or vacuum through the exhaust valve for that tiny moment in time....

So that ALL of the available air/fuel mixture can be drawn in by the engine, starting the exact moment the intake valve begins to open.


So the end result we want to achieve is more efficient intake, combustion, and exhaust...

Now on to my theory of how the resonator functions to allow this...

[MtnEX]

In hands on experience, here is my theory on the mechanical type function...

First lets think about exhaust gas travel and exhaust wave travel... and both the pressures and energies involved...

First we have to understand that neither are one-way only travel. The exhaust action is a pulse of gases, sound waves and heat which escape the engine into the exhaust.... and at the best, will still travel in both directions at different points in time due to pulse, pressure and temperature differences inside and outside the exhaust tip.

Now consider the resonator chamber... I imagine that based on the size of the chamber, the position of the ports and all of the multiplied variables... that in the end scientific laws apply in it's actual functional operation...

Heat rises... and pressure flows in the path of least resistance in order to equalize...

I think when the exhaust pulse enters the header, the header pressure becomes higher than the levels in the resonator, and at a tuned point, the excess pressure escapes into the upper resonator chamber.... like a relief valve creating additional volume for escape... and in the end of course, increased flow... as if it were larger diameter... but to a perfect point rather than the overkill of a 3" header... lol...

Then of course, as exhaust travels out to the mid pipe and into the larger megaphone, pressures in the header reduce and those gasses that escaped into the resonator under pressure and compressed THEN RUSH OUT just as they would if you opened the valve on your air tank.

And I'm thinking that could create a slight boosted flow out to the tip... and if not, a resistant flow against backpressure. Either way it really does not matter, and you understand that if you understand the concept so far...

In any event, the exhaust volume is increased, and the head flow is increased as well... which allows for faster more powerful exhaust strokes of the piston... and more efficient intake strokes...

There is probably some trailing suction on the exhaust side for that window of time both intake and exhaust are open rather than backpressure.... and if backpressure does happen to make its way back into the megaphone mid pipe, it's compressing as it flows into the smaller diameter of the header....

And you guessed it.... there lies a resonator chamber, offering a space of lower pressure for it to route to, rather than travel on back through the header to the valve opening.

So you get very effective intake of all of the available air/fuel charge without anything working against that.... more of both than you ever got before, and hopefully you are not drawing in too much air for the available fuel...

Else, you have a rare occasion where you really have to rejet or add a fuel controller to increase the available fuel to the mixture.


===============

In the case of the KFX 450R, I think the stock map is considerably rich, and in stock form the engine has a hard time drawing in what is available due to a restrictive intake and exhaust.

[MtnEX]

Now if you got through all of that... I think you can see that even though it may seem complex or confusing.... that it is really nothing more than old established laws of science.... that simple stuff you learned in school.... but now applied to your exhaust system.

Just simple laws applied and tuned... nothing mechanical involved in the operation.



Although I am sure the development is complex with some trail and error, these things can be tuned to specific engines and then mass produced.

As shown in this thread alone, there are several different variations.... and they will be different, depending on application and desired results.

Many things will effect the results reaped from the resonators... as about all aspects are honestly tuneable...

Where the port is placed on the header, the diameter of the port, the length of the port, the entry point of the port into the chamber, the size of the chamber, the shape of the chamber... pretty much any and every thing physical about it...


In the case of the Jardine RT99 for the KFX 450R.... it's tuned to reduce noise, and it increases intake efficiency, exhaust efficiency, and as an end result delivers a substantial boost in throttle response, torque, horsepower, power delivery and effective operating RPM of the engine.

It's the first off road exhaust I have experienced that truly delivers considerable gains in torque and horsepower throughout the RPM range... and also extends the effective RPM range.

Most usually only create a minor gain at a particular RPM range, and many do so by just moving where the power is made to another more effective RPM range.... which means a sacrifice somewhere else.

[kfxracer72]

zzz... Math class was more exciting than this thread.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by kfxracer72
zzz... Math class was more exciting than this thread.

Absolutely true.... but folks needed to understand how it works... and science class never was that exciting either...

The excitement doesn't start until after you understand how and why it works, and buy one yourself.

The end result is where the excitement is.

[miles Machine]

i happen to think stuff like this is very interesting...i appreciate threads like this, alot can be learned if you just expand your mind

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by miles Machine
i happen to think stuff like this is very interesting...i appreciate threads like this, alot can be learned if you just expand your mind

Thanks a lot... because I was out working on my KFX lighting upgrade... and I got to thinking...

I spent a whole lot of time in the middle of the night typing and trying really hard to do a good job of explaining a complex subject...

And even if people find it dry boring reading, it would be nice if those who read it would at least comment on it...

So at least I know if I did a good job of explaining it, where people could understand it.



So I appreciate knowing you got something out of my time and effort.

[chad502ex]

Originally posted by Fred55
But you are right in the the sense that the header length and diameter is where all the power is made, not the muffler.

not true. An exhaust canister is part of the entire system itself and accounts for the overall length and volume of the system.

The canister can also assist in scavenging, which can increase power throughout the entire RPM range.

If there were no additional power to be made in the canister, there would not be any slip-on options out there cause it would be a waste to produce.... In fact, my tapered canister has been independently dyno tested, and compared against other popular designed canisters back-to-back, and was verified to outperform anything currently manafactured....

my point is that I decided to design and improve the canister portion of the system since I know for a fact that other designs do not maximize the potential gains that the current available headers has already provided....

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by chad502ex
not true. An exhaust canister is part of the entire system itself and accounts for the overall length and volume of the system.

The canister can also assist in scavenging, which can increase power throughout the entire RPM range.

If there were no additional power to be made in the canister, there would not be any slip-on options out there cause it would be a waste to produce.... In fact, my tapered canister has been independently dyno tested, and compared against other popular designed canisters back-to-back, and was verified to outperform anything currently manafactured....

my point is that I decided to design and improve the canister portion of the system since I know for a fact that other designs do not maximize the potential gains that the current available headers has already provided....

I agree with what you say about the exhaust can... it can have a big effect on the overall results you get from the whole exhaust.

Heck... I am all eyes and ears when it comes to stuff that actually pumps out power.

I'd like to see this canister to see how it works.

Have a link to a thread or anything?