saber tooth

[2-330s]

where are people buying the saber tooth and puma cylinders and how much are they? do they make them with a power valve?:confused: :confused:

[Buttermilk]

The Sabertooth comes with a powervalve, while the Puma does not.

www.mccoysperformance.com can get you a Saber, Puma, or Sphynx.

Nate McCoy is a standup guy who'll treat you right. Builds some fast motors.

[Motofool250r]

Pete has more Pumas out there that run long term then anyone

360-281-227
hes in Camas WA
noone has customer service like his.

[zedicus00]

i think neal still builds them. his website is still up anyways. contact them for full pricing and any type of ready to go package.

http://saberracing.com/

(btw he was in on helping with the original design of them)

[2-330s]

i have talked to some of the best motor builders and have been told that these cylinders come "stock" [unported] with a drag or more top end port heights and duration. is this true?

[Motofool250r]

i woould assume so beacuse the only people usging these are mainly the drag racing scene what trail rider will want a motor like these

[zedicus00]

thats not the entire story. they are set up a BIT more for top end but it is because the size and volume that is moved through it naturally accommodates low end and torque. the ports were set up for a bit more top end to help balance it out. basically you can get a good woods, or MX set up out of them. ive seen one done for woods.

[Motofool250r]

with 500cc of displacement you have more than enough torque to go anywhere i think. these things rip outa the hole.

[Buttermilk]

Nate McCoy can set up the motor for whatever purpose you plan to use the motor.

www.mccoysperformance.com


I've had a few conversations with him about setting one up for Flattrack/TT racing.

[250r grave yard]

i recently bought a puma setup and i paid 2800 shipped to my house i also had reeds crank inframe pipe and temp gauge in the package no drag porting done just a clean up 431 cc on pump gas

[Motofool250r]

hey grave yard thats not a 431 though =)

its a 443cc

[250r grave yard]

sorry you should know my setup is a 431

[zedicus00]

why is everyone going with the puma and not the saber? isnt pricing about the same??

[Motofool250r]

from what i know the pumas are lasting much longer

[Buttermilk]

Puma cost is less and they are getting very close to the same power as a Sabertooth.

[Buttermilk]

Originally posted by 250r grave yard
i recently bought a puma setup and i paid 2800 shipped to my house i also had reeds crank inframe pipe and temp gauge in the package no drag porting done just a clean up 431 cc on pump gas


What crank/rod combo are you running?

I am thinking of doing one of these......

[Motofool250r]

its a 6mm crank Pete built it for another guy n i bought it off him couple weeks ago,

[Buttermilk]

So, 78 stroke. What's the rod you are running?

I'm considering the 137.5 rod option that CPI has pistons for (431cc Puma).

Reason I'm asking is I am undecided and want to know what options are out there.

Thanks.

Rog

[jhtrx250r]

I had my sphinx power valve done by arlan lehman founder of LRD, he is know in gresham oregon building motors
mine came set up for top end out of the box, but He did a little port work and machined the base of the cylinder and it works alright in the woods.
It is mostly a dunner and it kills at that, smokes 4 pokes, I still own a couple 450r's but prefer to ride my old 2 stroke

[jhtrx250r]

arlin also knows calvin the guy that builds the cylinders (CPI)
he works directly with him and is in the process of switching to the puma cylinder insted of the sphinx, I went with the sphinx because no case mods where nessary.

[Buttermilk]

What is the reason that Arlin is switching to the Puma from the Sphinx?

It's possible that some of the smaller Pumas might be able to be built with no case work, since Calvin has them as small as 293cc (72 x 72 bore and stroke).

I am told that the Puma has the potential for more power than the Sphinx.

[250r grave yard]

puma has less work that needs to be done

sabor from what i gathered you have to do tranny mods and the stock clutches wont work

also depends on what riding your doing the sabor has to much power for the trails

[250r grave yard]

Originally posted by Buttermilk
What crank/rod combo are you running?

I am thinking of doing one of these...... i have the +4 crank

[jhtrx250r]

From what he told me the puma has a greater potential for power.
mine is a drop in sphinx thats why I went with it 72x72 and they go down to a 66mm as well
mine works good enough for me it runs in the 55ish RWHP range
with a good bell power curve.
The real test is on the sand in a full on drag race and that is where it works best.

[Motofool250r]

buttermilk i dont know what rod he put in this motor but you can find him on planet sand as piranah (Pete S) give him a msg hed be happy to discuss one.

[Buttermilk]

Originally posted by jhtrx250r
From what he told me the puma has a greater potential for power.
mine is a drop in sphinx thats why I went with it 72x72 and they go down to a 66mm as well
mine works good enough for me it runs in the 55ish RWHP range
with a good bell power curve.
The real test is on the sand in a full on drag race and that is where it works best.

Thanks for the info.


I am getting 56.4 hp with a good broad spread of power from an oem cylinder, so I want more than 55ish on my next build.

[Buttermilk]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
buttermilk i dont know what rod he put in this motor but you can find him on planet sand as piranah (Pete S) give him a msg hed be happy to discuss one.

Thanks.

I've seen his postings on PS and also on atvdragracers.com


I'm trying to find out how many 431 Pumas have been built using the 130.3 rod on the 76 stroke.

I've been leaning towards the 137.5 mm long rod version that's available.

Thanks.

Rog

[jhtrx250r]

Mid 50's is good for an R , stock they only make around 25 at the rear wheels honda rates them at 34 I think but that is at the crank.
and every dyno is diffrent I have smoked so called 62-65hp built yfz's and raptor 700's
The dyno mine was done on is LRD's old dyno and it is a little on the conservitive side.
moral of the story is dont go by the dyno #, go by the way the bike pulls and feels compared to others.

[derby]

Originally posted by Buttermilk
Thanks.

I've seen his postings on PS and also on atvdragracers.com


I'm trying to find out how many 431 Pumas have been built using the 130.3 rod on the 76 stroke.

I've been leaning towards the 137.5 mm long rod version that's available.

Thanks.

Rog

If pete set the motor up he used a yz490 rod.

[250r grave yard]

tim from titan racing said i could use the 130.3 rod on my 431 puma setup but if i were to put it on alky i would need to go to the 137 rod

when i get my setup i let you lnow how it works for me supposed to be this week but i leaning towards next week

if you got the cash go ahead and splurg on the 137 rod

[Buttermilk]

Sorry to 'jack the thread, but are the cranks being balanced for these 431 Pumas?

Also, what crank are you putting the 137.5 (YZ490) rod on?

Thanks.

Rog

[250r grave yard]

yes thats how i was able to use the 130 rod

trued balanced and welded

[derby]

Originally posted by Buttermilk
Sorry to 'jack the thread, but are the cranks being balanced for these 431 Pumas?

Also, what crank are you putting the 137.5 (YZ490) rod on?

Thanks.

Rog

I started with a new hot rods 4mm crank. It will have to be balanced. Even after having it balanced there is still some vibration at idle but as soon as you touch the throttle it smooths out. Unfortunately the crank is one of the expensive parts, if you already have a crank the balancing, welding and yz490 rod will run you $500. Which is getting close to what the saber cranks cost.

If you are thinking about building one this is kind of an overview.
$1100 topend
$200 plating
$250 porting
$750 crank
$400 carb
$300 case work
$600 pipe
$250 yukons
$180 reeds and boot
$300 lockup

So what do you get for your money? Stock quotes on the hour? No, but think of a good gas 370 making 60 hp and this motor is capable of 75+ on race gas. This is my first puma but it is the fastest 250r setup I have tested yet. You see there is more to this motor than just a bunch of hi-priced hyperport. Not only is the design really efficient but it is also very reliable, which is a rare thing. So calvin really does know what he is doing. The power on my puma is very usable. When I got everything degreed out though I realized that my motor was built entirely on improbable #'s. The acceleration is brutal at wot, however it will also putt-putt around with the best of them.

[Buttermilk]

"When I got everything degreed out though I realized that my motor was built entirely on improbable #'s"

I've got port maps for the 431 Puma from Calvin. His as cast numbers look pretty good for what I'm wanting to build.

If you don't mind my asking what are your port timings?

I've also got a 4 mill hot rods crank ordered. I am currently running a Pro-X 4 mill that's got some time on it, hence the new crank.

I've been wanting to run the 137.5 rod, reason for all my questions.

Who did the rod conversion, and balanced your crank? I've got a local guy who can do the rod, but he doesn't like to mess with tin can cranks.

Thanks.

Rog

[2-330s]

don't worry. this is all the same info i'm looking for, but my question is why the puma and not the saber tooth? how many hours are they recommending for a new piston,crank bearings and lower rod bearing? i'm also looking to flat track a bigger motor.

[Buttermilk]

2-330's,

As has already been mentioned, the reason for the Puma instead of the Sabertooth is simply that it is cheaper to build, and gets you almost as much power, if not the same power, as a Sabertooth.

As I understand it, the 496cc Sabertooth setups are getting right at 103-104 hp, or so, on alcohol. The 431 Puma setups are getting 96-97 hp on alcohol.

I personally was gonna do a Puma, then decided to go another round with the OEM jug just to make sure I really was learning how to port these cylinders and setup the motors (after all even a blind hog finds an acorn everyonce in a while...). Wish I had done the Puma...

Now, I am trying to scrape up the funds to do a Puma. Just trying to decide what exact setup to do, since there are a few options with the Puma cylinder (130.3 rod vs. 137.5 rod, several bore sizes, etc.).

I plan to build mine as a flattrack / TT quad and not a drag racer, so that makes it much harder for me to make up my mind. If I was building a drag quad, it'd be no question: 431 Puma or perhaps even a Sabertooth.

But bottom line is the Puma is cheaper to build than the Sabertooth, and makes nearly the same power. One reason being that they can be setup using the stock 72 stroke and even the +4 mill 76 stroke crank setups that are real common mod for the 250R. Sabertooth setups are not designed, nor intended, to be setup using the stock crank or even the +4 mill cranks commonly available. The Saber really needs the crank/rod combos listed on www.cpindinc.com or those pushed by www.saberracing.com in order to be reliable.

Perhaps with time, the Puma may make more power than the Sabertooth, simply by being a more efficient cylinder with the possibility of having more development time on setups, etc. since more Pumas are likely to be sold than Sabertooths.

Regards,

Rog

[Motofool250r]

butter are you on planetsand at all?

[Buttermilk]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
butter are you on planetsand at all?

Yeah, under the same screen name. Well I at least used to be. Since they went subscription, I don't post there anymore. Just lurk everyonce in a while.

I hang out some at www.atvdragracers.com It's a really good site that was started after PS went to paid subs.

[buford]

Buttermilk, Pete on planetsand did my motor and if you need some more detailed questions answered, give him a pm on planet Sand or just call him. 360-281-2274. I have a 431 cc gas puma that I haven't had out in the sand yet. (I'm in oregon) One of Pete's 6 mil puma's has been in a 3 wheeler for a least a year actually going on 2 and has claimed 300 gals of race gas through it. I do believe this because the guy that owns it goes to the dunes about every other weekend it seems. I saw the bore after 100 gals or so and it looks like new. I was impressed. Pete only uses the 137.5 YZ 490 rod. He is lightening the rod, and modding the big end and also is doing the crank balancing as well. I bought a hot rods 4 mil and used this as a platform. This three wheeler is running the shearer out of frame puma drag pipe, 14.5:1 compression, CR 250 ignition, and a 41.5 Keihin PWK on oxygenated fuel and is only loosing in a drag race to a saber in a drag frame and a bit larger Puma that Pete built both being on alky by a couple bike lengths. Talk to Pete about it more but I know he loves these motors.

The port timings on my are 195 (and some change) degree's on the exhaust with 32 degrees of blow down. It appears there is a little play depending on the cylinder and Calvin has them set around 196 degrees with 32 degrees of blowdown. Calvin didn't have special pistons available for the 137.5 mm rod so Pete used a Polaris piston and about a .180-.200 thick spacer plate. I would like running no spacer but the polaris piston appears to be quite a bit lighter than the one Calvin is providing. Calvin now has heads with headstay mounts on them, with the spacer plate, I had to cut the honda headstay mounting tabs off and have Pete weld some new ones on at a different angle so it would fit. The vibes with the balanced crank are apparent at idle but does smooth out as you go up in the rpms. The word is with the head stay, the vibes are non existant. I'm running the Shearer in frame pipe and it fit real well even with the spacer plate I am running. I spend the most money on the tranny, yukon gear set on the one side, and cryoed them along with the stock gears. I threw the rod in to get cryoed as well since it didn't cost anymore money. I am running a non overridden tranny because I want to ride in the dunes but am running the slipshot lockup clutch. I can tell you this is the smoothest 250r tranny I have ever ridden and they are already smooth from the factory. I can't believe how nice this tranny shifts and it has a lock up on it.

I can see why most motor builders are ditching the sphinx and going to the puma with the smaller bores, the port layout looks nicer, the exhaust port is much larger on the puma and the reed cage is bigger with the cr 500 cage vs the 250r cage.

I hope that helps you out

[2-330s]

butter i breezed trough your dyno charts. what ignition were you running? i had a friend bust apart 2 cylinders on the exhaust side studs. a 265 pv and a 295 after talking to some motor builders he changed to a pvl and no more problems.

[buford]

Sorry, Buttermilk I re-read your post and I see you are doing a TT/flat tracker. If I wanted to build another 250r motor, I would build a 78 mm bore 4 mil stroke 363 cc if the rules don't limit CC's. You wouldn't have to balance the crank at all, I would run the YZ 490 rod, and run the 78 mm KTM 380 piston. If you do this setup don't by a Wiesco piston. These KTM pistons were feather light but now Weisco doesn't make anything light anymore. My next piston will be a Wossner piston. These are nice forged pistons machined light like the old Wiesco's used to be. They also come with a antiscuff material on the piston skirt. You shouldn't have to run any spacer plate with this set up. I think the smaller bore motor (72) would be too pipey looking at the amount of port area these cylinders have.

[DEERCHOOPER]

i want to read more, lol.

i want to go big the first time and not regret my build. i do have a 38 A.S. right now would it be to small for one of these 360 and up motors? i think it will only be a tt quad with a couple runs in the woods here and there.

im new to the 2 stroke motors. i keep seeing the yz490 rod in this post. what are the benifits for it?

my motor is apart for the last 6 months, i never rode it. thinking about the yukon gears for the tranny. the other half is up in the air. help me put a combo together.

[buford]

A 344 cc or 363 cc Puma would be right up your alley. I know nothing about TT racing and don't know the class rules for engine size I guess if there is a unlimited class then go for the biggest puma you could build I guess. I would be more apt to build the smaller motors probably a bit more managable in the corners. I guess you could use the 38 air stryker just fine, just remember on these larger motors if you have to correct pipe the carb is a choking off point. Other than fuel economy, I run the biggest carb on my bikes as possible to a point of tuneability. A 41.5 mm PWK would perform much better and you would still find you have very good bottom end power.

I would use a YZ 490 rod for 2 reasons, #1. If using the KTM 380 piston, the pin on these pistons are really far up the piston skirt close to the piston crown compared to the 250r piston. You don't have to deck the bottom of the cylinder to bring the port hieghts in line. #2. When used on the 72 mm stroke, a 137.5 mm rod makes your rod/stroke ratio close to what a banshee has meaning your piston speeds at high rpms come down and you can spin your motor more rpms and have it live. In a 4 mil stroke crank, the rod/stroke ratio is exactly what a stock 72 mm stoke long rod Honda 250r motor has. There are a couple other advantages but I think these are the biggest.

[Buttermilk]

Originally posted by 2-330s
butter i breezed trough your dyno charts. what ignition were you running? i had a friend bust apart 2 cylinders on the exhaust side studs. a 265 pv and a 295 after talking to some motor builders he changed to a pvl and no more problems.

I'm running a CR ignition with a Dyna FS programmable CDI.

[Buttermilk]

Originally posted by buford
Sorry, Buttermilk I re-read your post and I see you are doing a TT/flat tracker. If I wanted to build another 250r motor, I would build a 78 mm bore 4 mil stroke 363 cc if the rules don't limit CC's. You wouldn't have to balance the crank at all, I would run the YZ 490 rod, and run the 78 mm KTM 380 piston. If you do this setup don't by a Wiesco piston. These KTM pistons were feather light but now Weisco doesn't make anything light anymore. My next piston will be a Wossner piston. These are nice forged pistons machined light like the old Wiesco's used to be. They also come with a antiscuff material on the piston skirt. You shouldn't have to run any spacer plate with this set up. I think the smaller bore motor (72) would be too pipey looking at the amount of port area these cylinders have.

Thanks for the info, Buford.

I am probably gonna go with the 363cc, and after checking with Calvin on what pistons he's got for the 76 stroke in larger bores, I may very well go with a bit larger motor. I want the 431cc version, but don't want to deal with a lot of vibration issues.

Class rules normally limit me to a 265cc. Anything larger and it's legal for the Open Class. No CC limit there.

I know the cranks are being balanced, but no one is doing anything with the counter balancer as far as I know. While balancing the crank certainly helps, the vibration will never be completely resolved until someone includes the counter balancer as part of the "balancing" As a matter of physics, it's impossible to "balance" a single with out the use of a properly weighted counter balancer.

You've hit the nose on the head regarding why I want to run a YZ490 rod. All about rod ratio, and longevity, combined with RPM's.

[2-330s]

has anyone seen a comparison between the pvl,cr 250 and ftz drag ignitions?

[Buttermilk]

The ignitions all have their pro's and con's.

I choose to run a CR with a Dyna programmable simply because of the flexibility of putting timing where I want it. That advantage for me is worth any drawbacks of the CR.

[buford]

Buttermilk, I haven't ran my 431cc with the headstay mount provision head yet but I did run it with the non headstay head for a bit. First impression, it had a bit more vibes sitting and idling that was noticable. Once riding though, it felt just like my 370 did or actually a bit smoother. In talking with guys that have the headstay mount head, it takes most of the vibes away at idle as well.

I think you would be good to go with the 431. I can tell you unless Calvin has received some ligher pistons for the 137.5 mm rod, be ready to machine the piston lighter. Wiesco doesn't machine pistons hardly anymore.

[Buttermilk]

Is anyone other than Crank Works balancing these cranks?

Got a new in box Hot Rods 76 stroke I need to send out and have the rod installed and then balanced.

[buford]

yes, Pete the guy that build my motor balanced my crank. I put his phone number in one of my replies. He does real good work.

It appears I might be building another motor for my brother in law. It's a shame but his Pro-x 330 is leaking water, you just can't sleeve those cylinders with much luck or at least my luck anyway. I think I am going to build a 78 mm stock stroke puma for him but I'm going to use the stock honda stroke and rod and use a ESR 78-80 mm piston to do a cheap build. I'm thinking if the liner is thick enough to bore to a 80 mm and the piston is pretty light that I can get 361 ccs out of all bore and not worry about the stroke. Then I don't have to worry about balancing cranks or stroker stuff.

[Buttermilk]

Yep, I've sleeved two oem cylinders, both of which are leaking now, it appears.

Thanks to all who've shared their info. Some good stuff in this thread.