The Ride Says It ALLLL!!

[mhill157]

I would like to personally thank Can AM for selling me the most unreliable ATV I have ever owned. I have got a total of 34 hrs on this machine since April '08 and will be ripping the motor apart for the 3rd time. I have made all updates to this point and it's still falling apart. This year I have racked up a amazing 4 hrs of ride time. If you are curious I have rebuilt Honda and other ATV and Dirt Bike motors for year and this one is nothing special.

Now that I have No bank account left I will start saving up for something better.

I also would like to apologize to everybody I have recommended this ATV to. Including friends in my local area.

Michael Hill
mhill157@gmail.com

[crixal]

i guess i just got lucky because i have close to 40 hours on mine now and have never had one thing go wrong. it has been nothing but great for me. sorry, man.

[BamBam730]

Originally posted by mhill157
I would like to personally thank Can AM for selling me the most unreliable ATV I have ever owned. I have got a total of 34 hrs on this machine since April '08 and will be ripping the motor apart for the 3rd time. I have made all updates to this point and it's still falling apart. This year I have racked up a amazing 4 hrs of ride time. If you are curious I have rebuilt Honda and other ATV and Dirt Bike motors for year and this one is nothing special.

Now that I have No bank account left I will start saving up for something better.

I also would like to apologize to everybody I have recommended this ATV to. Including friends in my local area.

Michael Hill
mhill157@gmail.com


Sorry to hear your displeasure. Although I dont own a DS450, I do own a DS650 and am very happy with it. Good luck in the future.

[coryatver]

Originally posted by crixal
i guess i just got lucky because i have close to 40 hours on mine now and have never had one thing go wrong. it has been nothing but great for me. sorry, man.

never had one thing go wrong huh?

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=392542

http://www.exriders.com/vbb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=388760

[crixal]

something has to give when you get hit at 40-50 mph. are you serious?

the overheating problem wasn't even an over heating problem. i hit a tree and knocked the spark plug cap off.

everything that has went wrong on this bike was my fault. nice try though.

the only complaint is poor service departments. that's the dealer's problem.

[TNT]

I will and have said the same about our 04 YAM, $7,500 OTD stock inaugural year, “race ready” yeah right!!!! Nothing but problems that continued for the next five years as we developed from beginner to advanced mx racer. Year one, 50% of OEM replaced, swing, a-arms, rims, steering stem, bars, axle, and electrical system that continuously failed had a reliability factor of -.00000000001. Second year, replaced the harness, got rid of the battery, relays and junk!..., steel bad pyramid frame design cracked needed gussets, motor was weak needed complete overhaul, $18K later got a quad that could barely hold a b-class mx racer in the top 5 locally w/o failure. Third year, 80% was aftermarket since stock was too unreliable for the a-class mx racer, thought I could beat this purchased a second one just for racing 1 yr old in 06, 80% after market for $14,000, nothing but problems still have it as a practice quad. It’s that 20% stock stuff that fails much of which has been updated to 06, but this thing is such a money pit I refuse to spend more money on it, bone yard sounds better. Watched HON since 04 follow a little better reliability trend, then suk, kawi, but now after 4-6 years of research and development time I’d expect all of them to be perfectly flawless machines, I mean if we expect Can-Am in 1/4-1/6 the time to be.

In comparison, 2009 Can-Am DS has held up extremely well for the $ the racer programs dishes out, and I’d expect 2010 to be even better on the reliability curve. If you were to graph time vs. reliability of all the OEMs you would see yr 1 would not be any worse, maybe better, than some of its competition. If you were to then to graph cost vs. reliability you would see the same. Look at any product line in its first year then it’s fifth then make your comparison but DO NOT isolate year one.

Give em a break! Lets put the 08 past behind us...They have done more for the sport and amatuer in a rough economy than any OEM this year. When others have pulled back they push full steam ahead!!!

[nbm]

I have to agree with mhill157. The first time I heard the clutch squeal I knew I made a mistake purchasing one of these. I was and still am impressed with the design of the 450 i just have no faith in the quad. My quad maybe has 12 hours on it and no matter how I adjust it, the chain still rattles (Why can't they give us the proper chain slack tolerance without a rider on the quad?) The clutch squeal is embarrassing (my friends are like nice quad, how much did you pay for that?) I landed hard off a jump once and the bike quit running but it started right back up. The engine has an intermittant miss, I will be riding along and it will act like somebody shut the key off for a split second. The low fuel light just seems to come on whenever it likes. the engine is very noisey. This plus all the problems I read about in this forum makes me want to go back and purchase another yamaha but another problem with these bikes is resale value. I paid over 7 grand for mine and now I see them on ebay for under 5 grand brand new. How much do you think I am going to get for a used one? Don't get me started on service either! I took my bike into the dealer in early december (clutch update, motor mount, flywheel bolts) and it wasn't even looked at until february. Then around mid march I started calling everyday with a tone in my voice until I finally got it back. I pick the quad up from the dealer and there are metal shavings all over the frame from the mount update, there's antifreeze all over the bottom frame rail and some lovely scratches on the frame siderails. I get it home and do a lookover and find the starter wire cover off the starter motor and none of the throttle body clamps are tight (there was one other issue but I can't remember what it was). I had to pay 90 dollars for labor to have the clutch update done which I don't think I should of had to pay as this was a defect in workmanship (engineering) and should have been covered under warranty. I try to call can am to complain and all I get was an automated voice saying that everybody is busy and to call back later then it hangs up on me. I couldn't even leave a message. Yes, I was calling between normal business hours. needless to say I will never own another can am product. I have owned several machines in my lifetime including 2 raptors (2001,2002) and a yfz450 (2004) and never had anything close to the trouble I have had with the ds450

[TNT]

I feel your pain you two above but you need to realize what you are referring too. If you had experience as a Design or Manufacturing Engineer, or Race Team Coordinator you would understand more. The first three years for a product like this is experimental, to experience reliability issues are not uncommon.

Picture yourself at a graphics terminal designing this quad not knowing the thousands of racers of different sorts and styles that you are designing to. Those racers, think of them all, or better yet transfer all the data from them riding into loads that you have to design too, then think of your shop and it’s capabilities, then think of your up front total cost to develope this product and build lets say 2000, and how many you need to sell to break even?? Don’t forget to consider all the time designers are on the computer, all the material, tooling, all the people you need in the shop. Also most importantly, don’t forget your competition that they have been at it five or more years and you have to be more effiicent than them to compete…… Your design and build plan has to be much better to out weigh the time frame you loss to your competitors.

Now you know that there is no way in the first year you can't capture all the conditions of all the racers, tracks, market's out there despite all you’re testing/trade studies and design/build efforts. You need year one to collect more data to redesign and build to. Your on a tight budget and schedule that demands innovation beyond the competition, a lean design and build process.

Your best course of action is marketing since you are behind the ball in development time, so you produce racer programs to buy some time to catch up. In the meantime, a world wide recession takes place and your expenses are high, profits low!!

Hope by now you see the point and can appreciate more what these companies go through and why you all should be grateful they even exist in this economy. Five-six years ago not even half of the options existed. 5-6 years ago I paid more for a stock quad then today in a better economy that was far, far, less reliable.

[jcs003]

TNT---are you sure you are an engineer:confused: the research and development stage is designed to solve as many issues that could arise under the conditions the machine is expected to handle. if the testing is rigerous enough most of the flaws will be determined and the design updated.

it is not the consumers problem if there are 'first year' production issues. espically if they are putting on a 'race ready' tag.

you also touch on the economics of the engineering processes. a project isn't started without the green light from the president or CEO of a company. if an engineer cant produce within the financial parameters that they are expected, they dont have a job.

[BamBam730]

Originally posted by jcs003
TNT---are you sure you are an engineer:confused: the research and development stage is designed to solve as many issues that could arise under the conditions the machine is expected to handle. if the testing is rigerous enough most of the flaws will be determined and the design updated.

it is not the consumers problem if there are 'first year' production issues. espically if they are putting on a 'race ready' tag.

you also touch on the economics of the engineering processes. a project isn't started without the green light from the president or CEO of a company. if an engineer cant produce within the financial parameters that they are expected, they dont have a job.

I agree with the fact that Can-Am should shoulder a greater amount of responsibility regarding their product. Does it seem that the problems these machines are having seem magnified due to the fact that people are on this site complaining and that is all we are hearing about. Most people who are happy with their 450's are not posting here stating how wonderful a machine it is. My cousin has a 450 and he loves it. He rides very hard and has put his machine through it paces and has not had any problems. He maintains it well and the machine operates fine. I know my 650 is a great machine, it performs well and it is also a Can-Am BRP product. This is JMO.

[BuB400]

Someone should call the Phantom Rider

[ScottB125]

I don't have any major complaints about my 08. I'm sure I don't ride it near as hard as alot of you guys, but you have to understand.....you start racing something, its going to break. I ride MX tracks all the time and have had zero issues.

[TNT]

Originally posted by jcs003
TNT---are you sure you are an engineer:confused: the research and development stage is designed to solve as many issues that could arise under the conditions the machine is expected to handle. if the testing is rigerous enough most of the flaws will be determined and the design updated.

it is not the consumers problem if there are 'first year' production issues. espically if they are putting on a 'race ready' tag.

you also touch on the economics of the engineering processes. a project isn't started without the green light from the president or CEO of a company. if an engineer cant produce within the financial parameters that they are expected, they dont have a job.

If that statement were true there would be no recalls, service bulletins, no need to redesign or release future designs to the market. OEM’s need more than the initial development phase to refine their products. Some never do succeed and fold because the development cost can not be recovered.

To better understand this lets create a start up company, design and release a quad for kicks and grins. Let’s start with a team consisting a project engineer(designer), a manufacturing engineer, an accountant, and a quality assurance person at a min.

This may get long so be forewarned if your not interest don’t read any further…..those interested feel free to jump in add to the conversation.

Let’s set up a schedule and budget,

Target MSRP: $9,000
Dealer cost: $7,000
Schedule: 1 year.
Warrantee: 1 yr

Schedule is determined by the market, competition, budgeted R&D cost, and changes in the economy. Let’s assume in one year we will release 2000 units with a 1 year warrantee... our critical life cycle to design to is 1 year to keep our non recurring warantee cost down, most take longer than this. Non-recurring cost is R&D cost, warrantee, tooling, testing, etc, since they eventually phases out or are reduced in theory. Recurring cost is the manufacturing cost, the mechanics on the line, materials, tool maintenance, employees are a big one, lights, computers, you get the picture.

Now let’s look at how many we need to sell and our break even point,

$7,000 X 2000 = $14 mil. Seems like a lot of many but consider how much money it cost for the engineers, accountants, employees charging to our project for the next year, material to build a prototype, overhead, tooling, testing, facility, office equipment, you get the picture…..Also consider if the economy goes bad it may take more than a year to recover our cost and time is money we lost.

Next we will design, build and test a prototype and look at all that is associated with it but before we do any questions or comments?

[powertechn2]

well, i guess a lot of people dont like their ds's, this guy didnt like his ds or the can am 4x4 something (big, i didnt look at that, wasnt interested enough to) he didnt like them and just left the trailer open, with a sale sign on both, selling for 5695, 08, says 3 hours on it, it is clean, but he didnt even lock the trailer lol


http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk106/powertechn2/special/dsforfree.jpg

anyone need spare parts? it was in a near empty parking lot just sittng there.

:rolleyes:

maybe they are insured lol, i dunno, but pretty boneheaded thing to do imo.

[HOBS DS450]

TNT, you are wasting your time. Some people are going to be unhappy no matter what.

I'm happy with my purchase and I know its a good quad. I plan on buying more!

[blaster99]

Well I love my DS. I have a fully built Suzuki i just rebuilt, 3 grand into the motor, another grand into replacing all the bearings, chain, sprocket, etc. If any of you guys want to buy it, its a real good quad. Also, selling your can-ams? Ill take them off your hands for the right price. :cool:

[powertechn2]

naw dude, those werent mine, literally i was driving down the road, and saw them sitting in a nearly empty parking lot, nothing but closed empty businesses in the lot, and a bar about 1000 ft further down...

just sitting unstrapped on a trailer, i started to look at them, just to look, im an honest person, then i noticed the trailer wasn't even locked, and it looked like the keys were even in them, i didnt pay attention, after i saw they were just vulnerable sitting ther totally for someone to take, i fig'd it may be an insurance job waiting to happen or something, how many people would leave not one, but 2 quads that cost at least 8k each, on a trailer totally unlocked for no reason?


i left not wanting to get a rap for someone elses wrongdoing later in the day possibly.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TNT
If that statement were true there would be no recalls, service bulletins, no need to redesign or release future designs to the market. OEM’s need more than the initial development phase to refine their products. Some never do succeed and fold because the development cost can not be recovered.

To better understand this lets create a start up company, design and release a quad for kicks and grins. Let’s start with a team consisting a project engineer(designer), a manufacturing engineer, an accountant, and a quality assurance person at a min.

This may get long so be forewarned if your not interest don’t read any further…..those interested feel free to jump in add to the conversation.

Let’s set up a schedule and budget,

Target MSRP: $9,000
Dealer cost: $7,000
Schedule: 1 year.
Warrantee: 1 yr

Schedule is determined by the market, competition, budgeted R&D cost, and changes in the economy. Let’s assume in one year we will release 2000 units with a 1 year warrantee... our critical life cycle to design to is 1 year to keep our non recurring warantee cost down, most take longer than this. Non-recurring cost is R&D cost, warrantee, tooling, testing, etc, since they eventually phases out or are reduced in theory. Recurring cost is the manufacturing cost, the mechanics on the line, materials, tool maintenance, employees are a big one, lights, computers, you get the picture.

Now let’s look at how many we need to sell and our break even point,

$7,000 X 2000 = $14 mil. Seems like a lot of many but consider how much money it cost for the engineers, accountants, employees charging to our project for the next year, material to build a prototype, overhead, tooling, testing, facility, office equipment, you get the picture…..Also consider if the economy goes bad it may take more than a year to recover our cost and time is money we lost.

Next we will design, build and test a prototype and look at all that is associated with it but before we do any questions or comments?

you make it apparent you are not an engineer and do not understand the dynamics of the design processes. when we design, then build a product we have companies that do our preliminary testing in a 'real world' scenario. what an engineer strives for is a low budget efficient design that incorporates what is best economically and scientifically.\

recalls are the nature of the beast...it is impossible to predict everything that can happen. most of the failures or in the production stage. did you ever hear of the "monday/friday lines" in the automotive industry...

[BamBam730]

Originally posted by jcs003
you make it apparent you are not an engineer and do not understand the dynamics of the design processes. when we design, then build a product we have companies that do our preliminary testing in a 'real world' scenario. what an engineer strives for is a low budget efficient design that incorporates what is best economically and scientifically.\

recalls are the nature of the beast...it is impossible to predict everything that can happen. most of the failures or in the production stage. did you ever hear of the "monday/friday lines" in the automotive industry...

JCS, obviously as per your profile, you are an engineer. Would it be fair to assume as time goes on these machines will become more efficient and have less issues? From what I have read alot of the complaiants are for the same issues, ie: limp mode, etc.
I have owned alot of different machines and I have to say that Can-Am is one of the better built machines as well as one of the better performers.
I will go further and state that when I owned a Honda 400ex, it was as they say, bullet proof as far as reliability.

[ScottB125]

The OP must have gotten a Monday bike. I think mine is a Wednesday bike...no problems.

[jcs003]

Originally posted by ScottB125
The OP must have gotten a Monday bike. I think mine is a Wednesday bike...no problems.

all jokes aside. this is something that is researched and defined.

bambam---of course i don't know everything;) but the fact is the manufactruer has to set a benchmark and stick to it. IMO honda sets a good benchmark, because they seem to be a year behind some other manufacturers...i.e.suzuki(first four wheeler) and they waited for the EFI. this being said. honda has been the top bike in racing since i been around...yamaha is making ground on honda lately.

as for a bike becoming more efficient. i don't know. technology will always be a step behind scientific theory. IMO 2 cycle engines will break new ground as they are actually more efficient. we just need support from the governing body to make the transition.

[mhill157]

My thing is it scares me. If you are going up to a 80' double will the engine hold up? The frame is awesome and think other manufactures should look into it. But back to my complaint why is this motor falling apart.

I have owned numerous different sleds from Ski Doo and never had a problem. Including race sleds, which are changed every year.

Service Departments around me joke to say the least, two months for the flywheel. They forgot they had my quad.

Yes the 09 were upgraded and that is why i upgraded mine too.

[TNT]

Originally posted by jcs003
you make it apparent you are not an engineer and do not understand the dynamics of the design processes.

You make me laugh! I've been doing this for 25 years on some of the best aircraft in the world not some quad......but ok what ever you say. :D

Funny! :D

[TNT]

Originally posted by HOBS DS450
TNT, you are wasting your time. Some people are going to be unhappy no matter what.

I'm happy with my purchase and I know its a good quad. I plan on buying more!

Your right!! I'll spend my time and efforts helping the guy's keep thier bike running on this site. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

[TNT]

Originally posted by jcs003
you make it apparent you are not an engineer and do not understand the dynamics of the design processes. when we design, then build a product we have companies that do our preliminary testing in a 'real world' scenario. what an engineer strives for is a low budget efficient design that incorporates what is best economically and scientifically.\

recalls are the nature of the beast...it is impossible to predict everything that can happen. most of the failures or in the production stage. did you ever hear of the "monday/friday lines" in the automotive industry...

JCS, I did like you said and pinched myself but it did not work. It’s not a dream and I got to go to work today……lol! I’m sitting at a CATIA V5 and Nastran terminal on the assembly line and need your help since I don’t know what I am doing??????

Saturday ironically right before having the luxury of reading your enlightening post a mechanic came up to me and brought to my attention that there are hi-lok’s in an area that has no gun access, talk about not understanding the design process or better yet build……what do you suggest I tell him?

Then a Quality Engineer came up to me and told me that there is no corrosion protection between a titanium and composite part, what should go there?

Then another electrical mechanic installing a wire bundle has two wire’s identified by marker but the connector terminal has none, how should the terminal be indentified?

Another mechanic drilled a hole with short edge margin, what should I do?

I don’t have a clue what to tell these people I just work here……lol……do need your help before I am in the unemployment line by the end of day.

LMAO!:D

[jcs003]

Originally posted by TNT
JCS, I did like you said and pinched myself but it did not work. It’s not a dream and I got to go to work today……lol! I’m sitting at a CATIA V5 and Nastran terminal on the assembly line and need your help since I don’t know what I am doing??????

Saturday ironically right before having the luxury of reading your enlightening post a mechanic came up to me and brought to my attention that there are hi-lok’s in an area that has no gun access, talk about not understanding the design process or better yet build……what do you suggest I tell him?

Then a Quality Engineer came up to me and told me that there is no corrosion protection between a titanium and composite part, what should go there?

Then another electrical mechanic installing a wire bundle has two wire’s identified by marker but the connector terminal has none, how should the terminal be indentified?

Another mechanic drilled a hole with short edge margin, what should I do?

I don’t have a clue what to tell these people I just work here……lol……do need your help before I am in the unemployment line by the end of day.

LMAO!:D


this was my point exactly. get off your pedastol and realize you don't know everything. you turned a members general post into a pissing contest. i was only setting the facts straight. another thing is i should be the one laughing.

[TNT]

Originally posted by jcs003
this was my point exactly. get off your pedastol and realize you don't know everything. you turned a members general post into a pissing contest. i was only setting the facts straight. another thing is i should be the one laughing.

Your the one that came out here attacking my credentials in your first post and if you read up you will not find where I attact yours till now but for fun!! If you think I am not an engineer and you know better well then answer my questions. I know exactly how to resolve all the issues. If you understood the design process as well as you say that should not be a problem and we'd see answers by now. No OEM can afford to test everything and they are not perfect and have issues after they release thier products, some more than others depends on the level of innovation and design risk too. I worked on the KC-135 for five years an aircraft designed in the 50's that to this day has design issues 60 years later. Otherwise if you really do have the technical background you claim do help some of the people out here that have issues as I have the best you can and stop attacking peoples credentials. This site can use more technical help so great if you can help out.

[mhill157]

Now that I have had time to cool off. Long weekend of drinking. TnT and HOBBS, I want this quad to work for me, I have to much money invested for it to fail. I am at a loss as to why I keep losing gears. I have rebuilt plenty of motors and this seems to be the one that decides to test me. I have spent a lot of money on tools to work on this quad for years to come.

CAN AM what am I doing WRONG???

[TNT]

Originally posted by mhill157
Now that I have had time to cool off. Long weekend of drinking. TnT and HOBBS, I want this quad to work for me, I have to much money invested for it to fail. I am at a loss as to why I keep losing gears. I have rebuilt plenty of motors and this seems to be the one that decides to test me. I have spent a lot of money on tools to work on this quad for years to come.

CAN AM what am I doing WRONG???

Yeah bro did the same thing was on the South Carolina beach all day yesterday at a bar at Holiday Inn with a live band on the deck on the sand and hot chicks EVERYWHERE! Lol! Then I got home a little tipsey and read this thread and ROTFLMFAO!

Tell me more about whats going on what gears all them a certain one?? Everyone from our shop is at Pikes Peak in CO all week but I take a stab at it if not run by some of the boy’s when they get back.

[mhill157]

Started out with one of the double gears and now it is third and fifth I believe. The shift fork and drum are messed up now .

[TNT]

Stumped me there, if I had my manual here I bet I could figure it out…..They just got done taking our 09 tranny and moving it over to 08 cases and there was some mod for a gear(s) I heard. The guy that’s really good at this and does 5/day is in Pikes Peak dynoing. He’ll be back next week Tuesday, I’ll ask him or if my boy talks to him sooner we’ll let you know asap.

[TNT]

Also I remember talking to DASA and Protec way back when about the 08 tranny and they told me they did a 3rd gear mod that has been fixed on 09, a grind, to keep it from busting…u might call them and see what you can find out….that may have something to do with it.

[mhill157]

Anything that works, gears are costly. If they upgraded can I use the 09 gears?

[bwkcobra03]

I just got my ds back from another 5 week trip to the dealer. I have only owned my ds for 6 months and it was in for repairs for 13 weeks of the 6 months i owned it. I was so unhappy today when i picked it up from the dealer i asked the salesman if I can trade it in on something more reliable. When I got home I went for a test ride and forgot how nice it rides next to all the other 450's that I have ridden including my banshee and my wife's ltz400. This machine is an awesome ride but a piece of crap at the same time. I cant belive that it took 5 weeks to get the parts to fix it.

[TNT]

Originally posted by mhill157
Anything that works, gears are costly. If they upgraded can I use the 09 gears?

Yeah but theres a mod.....Here call the shop JSR Performance next Wednesday and ask for Kyle 316-706-3658, he and my boy just did ours put 09 gears in a 08 case, tell him Terry sent you.

[HOBS DS450]

Originally posted by mhill157
Now that I have had time to cool off. Long weekend of drinking. TnT and HOBBS, I want this quad to work for me, I have to much money invested for it to fail. I am at a loss as to why I keep losing gears. I have rebuilt plenty of motors and this seems to be the one that decides to test me. I have spent a lot of money on tools to work on this quad for years to come.

CAN AM what am I doing WRONG???

I hear you and I wish you all the luck. I really wasn't making a comment about you. Just in general it seems like every couple days someone will post a problem and here comes the its a P.O.S bandwagon. I have been lucky not to have a problems like some people have had. Good luck on figuring it out and I'm willing to bet when you get this all sorted out you will be glad your on a Can Am. Keep us all posted on the progress!

[blaster99]

Originally posted by mhill157
Started out with one of the double gears and now it is third and fifth I believe. The shift fork and drum are messed up now .

Is it hitting false neutral when you shift from 4th to 3rd? Mine is, and the new shift pawls don't help it.

[mhill157]

Blaster I have hit false neutral once since I bought this thing. The last time I had gear problems like this was in '98 when my 250r blew up. Original gears from '86 still in it.

[mhill157]

Amazing the dealer had parts. All but one gear in the and the shift drum they had in stock, still 100 dollar gear to go. But to make matters worse check out the rest of my engine. (The mechanic that helped me rebuild this motor has twenty years experience building modified motorcycle, dirtbike and atv motors so I don't want to that I don't know what I am doing.) :mad:

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0285.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0277.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0281.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0278.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0274.jpg

The piston does not even have 2 hrs on it. The cylinder it junk too.

The happiest day of my life:grr:

[grantmi]

Originally posted by TNT
Stumped me there, if I had my manual here I bet I could figure it out…..They just got done taking our 09 tranny and moving it over to 08 cases and there was some mod for a gear(s) I heard. The guy that’s really good at this and does 5/day is in Pikes Peak dynoing. He’ll be back next week Tuesday, I’ll ask him or if my boy talks to him sooner we’ll let you know asap.

TNT....never heard, did you get your son's bike back together? How many hours do you have on it now?

[powertechn2]

Originally posted by mhill157
Amazing the dealer had parts. All but one gear in the and the shift drum they had in stock, still 100 dollar gear to go. But to make matters worse check out the rest of my engine. (The mechanic that helped me rebuild this motor has twenty years experience building modified motorcycle, dirtbike and atv motors so I don't want to that I don't know what I am doing.) :mad:

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0285.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0277.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0281.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0278.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii12/mhill157/IMG_0274.jpg

The piston does not even have 2 hrs on it. The cylinder it junk too.

The happiest day of my life:grr:

damn dude, that thing is fubared i think i can say.

what happened? did the trans bombard or what went first?

[TNT]

Originally posted by grantmi
TNT....never heard, did you get your son's bike back together? How many hours do you have on it now?

Yeah we got it running and on the dyno for a fast tune last week. I didn’t want to say anything about dyno numbers until we have it fully tuned. It’s running really good even rich. Well then the dyno and the guy that built the engine the most part left for Pikes Peak racing for a week. Well my son was going to race it last weekend but it was hard starting draining the battery at a test run, has something to do w/compression/big bore but wants to wait for the experts to return Monday to the shop and help him figure it out.

They should be back on the engine working out the bugs and dyno early next week and we should have some numbers by late next week. We have some development parts like the FCI needs a little tweaking, big bore kit, CV 4 boot, almost proved for production I’ll make sure that gets done so those parts become public.

We are hoping to have it going and to LL in the A-class, Aug 15….that will be the real test.

I’ll post info as soon as it becomes available.

mhill: I know your ticked I'd be too but you should see what happens to YAMs, HON,s, Suk's, Kawi's, in the shop my sons works in, this is minor! Ask him someday if you ever get a chance to meet him what he does for a living.

[mhill157]

We have no clue what cause the motor to go. I have been combing through the wreckage and can't find anything out of place.

I have started the price sheet to repair this motor and it looked like it will be parked until next spring. :mad:

[powertechn2]

damn dude, that sucks :eek2: sry bout the bad luck.

[craigmacphee]

Nice catch Corey! I too thought I saw him post some stuff about his can-am. Sometimes it amazes me how some people will type stuff just to look important or make themselves feel good. It confirms my thoughts about some people and forums.

Also, the BRP rep confirmed the clutch cover is on back order until October. If anyone has a source that has an extra cover/seal kit, please forward me the information.

I would love to offload this thing to someone but I could not in good conscience sell this to someone. I'm still a believer in karma and don't need any bad ju ju.

[ScottB125]

I want to clarify something. YOu never had any issues with the cover leaking until you did the clutch upgrade?


I'm just trying to plan my next few months, I have a new clutch on the way.....

If mine leaks, I'll weld....JB Weld...something. I'm not going to have mine sit till they have more covers.

[TNT]

Originally posted by craigmacphee
Nice catch Corey! I too thought I saw him post some stuff about his can-am. Sometimes it amazes me how some people will type stuff just to look important or make themselves feel good. It confirms my thoughts about some people and forums.

Not sure if you are referring to me but yes it makes me feel good to help you guy's out, or try, thats why I am out here. I like the technical challange too. What baffles me is when people attack a person that is only trying to help them....confirms my question why I bother or about SOME ppl on forums too.

I was only trying to help you keep your bike racing until the parts came in you didn't answer all my questions you are too busy bashing BRP and now me over a clutch cover you can probably fix yourself if you were not so busy out here bashing and complaining, as you said to make yourself feel better?

If you really wanted to fix your quad you clarify as you have been asked to by me and others, post some pics, look for the shaft seal and fix the leak. Until then stop whinning. We don't need it from owners we hear a ton from non owners. Out here let's focus on solutions not bashing, K?

Right Scott JB or RTV seal hair line cracks find a alternative seal but he does not tell us if he has the hairlines, size of the seal, nuttin!:confused: :scary:

[TNT]

Originally posted by mhill157
We have no clue what cause the motor to go. I have been combing through the wreckage and can't find anything out of place.

I have started the price sheet to repair this motor and it looked like it will be parked until next spring. :mad:

Call Kyle Tuesday.

[TNT]

Oh and Craig just thought I’d welcome you to the world of racing. Hope your luck is better than ours and build a really powerful motor $15,000 quad just to watch it EXPLODE in the dyno….Yeah that’s right $3,000 seasons almost over we got it running. Now tell me more about your clutch cover so I can solve your problems???? LOL!!!

[Blizzard24]

Originally posted by TNT
Not sure if you are referring to me but yes it makes me feel good to help you guy's out, or try, thats why I am out here. I like the technical challange too. What baffles me is when people attack a person that is only trying to help them....confirms my question why I bother or about SOME ppl on forums too.

I was only trying to help you keep your bike racing until the parts came in you didn't answer all my questions you are too busy bashing BRP and now me over a clutch cover you can probably fix yourself if you were not so busy out here bashing and complaining, as you said to make yourself feel better?

If you really wanted to fix your quad you clarify as you have been asked to by me and others, post some pics, look for the shaft seal and fix the leak. Until then stop whinning. We don't need it from owners we hear a ton from non owners. Out here let's focus on solutions not bashing, K?

Right Scott JB or RTV seal hair line cracks find a alternative seal but he does not tell us if he has the hairlines, size of the seal, nuttin!:confused: :scary:

Terry, I think he was refering to Crixal back on page 1 of this thread.

[Aussie_YFZ450]

Originally posted by mhill157
We have no clue what cause the motor to go. I have been combing through the wreckage and can't find anything out of place.

I have started the price sheet to repair this motor and it looked like it will be parked until next spring. :mad:

your oil squirter broke off and lodged in the counter balancers gears...

I cant tell exactly from the pics, but it looks like the squirter isnt there.

[mhill157]

I still can't not find the squirter anywhere. Today I gathered all the pieces up and tried to fined where they came from. I don't know how but I can't find 2 teeth and the squirter.

At this point I am almost ready to part this thing out and take the loss(about 2 grand).:(

Oh hey I some how have a bent valve.

[ltr311]

Originally posted by TNT
Not sure if you are referring to me but yes it makes me feel good to help you guy's out, or try, thats why I am out here. I like the technical challange too. What baffles me is when people attack a person that is only trying to help them....confirms my question why I bother or about SOME ppl on forums too.

I was only trying to help you keep your bike racing until the parts came in you didn't answer all my questions you are too busy bashing BRP and now me over a clutch cover you can probably fix yourself if you were not so busy out here bashing and complaining, as you said to make yourself feel better?

If you really wanted to fix your quad you clarify as you have been asked to by me and others, post some pics, look for the shaft seal and fix the leak. Until then stop whinning. We don't need it from owners we hear a ton from non owners. Out here let's focus on solutions not bashing, K?

Right Scott JB or RTV seal hair line cracks find a alternative seal but he does not tell us if he has the hairlines, size of the seal, nuttin!:confused: :scary:

I like the part where you say you think its funny how people talk crap when you try to help them. I recall you doing the same crap to me a few months back. LOL Far as Im concerned you should practice what you preach. If you want people to trust your boundless knowledge, you should give the same consideration.

[powertechn2]

Originally posted by mhill157
I still can't not find the squirter anywhere. Today I gathered all the pieces up and tried to fined where they came from. I don't know how but I can't find 2 teeth and the squirter.

At this point I am almost ready to part this thing out and take the loss(about 2 grand).:(

Oh hey I some how have a bent valve.
prolly after the sh1t hit the fan the timing went outta whack, then WHACK!!!


there is one by me in michigan for like 5299, says has 3 hours on it, is like new clean.

[TheNewn]

Against my better judgement i decided to throw in my 2 cents.
Before you read further, know that i'm a 20 year old prick that probably doesn't know a thing.


What seems most.....well just plain WEIRD to me, is how someone could defend Can-Am so much (TNT). I imagine EVERYONE reading this knows that it must be very difficult to create and sell a product of any kind and be successful. Especially something as complicated as an ATV.

However, that should by no means 'excuse' them from paying the consequences when their product fails and it is their fault, especially an ATV. The DS was designed to be a high performance fast quad, people are going to be in dangerous situations with the quad that could potentially be fatal is anything important on the quad fails.

People pay good money, 8,000 to me is a lot of money, to have this quad and Can-Am should stick behind it., It does not matter that it is their first year, or first three years, they should stand behind their product. Of course there are going to be issues with the first years, its sadly expected in the industry now from what i gather.

Long story short, the customer should not be shafted because of Can-Am's inability to find all the flaws in their designs before it is released to the public. If and when their product fails to meet up to what it is designed to do, any company that im going to give 8 thousand dollars to better make it right.


Last thing, TNT, i've forgotten who it was exactly, but someone's motor/gears grenaded on them and now the motor requires a full rebuild. And you say that is MINOR? Minor compared to the Honda's and the Yamaha's and others? The most expensive part, or parts, of the quad just failed and need to be replaced, how could that get any worse? Oh yeah, it can get worse because Can-Am wont replace it. Hopefully i read your comment wrong.


And....Done, sorry for the long read guys. If you made it this far, give yourself a beer.

[craigmacphee]

TNT:

I'm not sure where all that came from but I certainly was not referring to you. You having a bad day or what?

I was referring to Crixal "without" calling him out. He said something to the fact that he had NO problems with his quad ever, then the other guy posted pics from when he (crixal)previously pointed out a few problems he had with his quad, and even posted pics of such. BELIEVE ME, IT IS NOT GOAL TO SIT HERE AND BASH PEOPLE FOR TRYING TO HELP, BUT IT PISSES ME OFF WHEN PEOPLE CHIME IN WITH..."oh, I'VE NEVER HAD ANY PROBLEMS, ONLY TO SEE THEY HAVE...

About "fixing my problems myself if I would quit my *****ing and work on it....." I would have no problems attempting to fix this myself. I, however, am not a mechanic and would never claim to be. I can tinker and do small maintenance things with confidence, but to diagnose stuff, I just do not have the confidence. So, when I first bought my quad on April 15th, I ordered a full service manual. As of todays date, it was still on back-order from BRP. My fear is to get this thing apart, ruin a seal or gasket or something, only to find out BRP has it too on backorder until October. Then WTH am I supposed to do?

[hotshotgoal30]

i wouldnt say that can am doesnt stand behind their product. i mean i got a free, no cost to me at ALL, yes FREE clutch update and FREE labor on my machine that didnt even fall into the machines that needed it. what i was told the parts for that were over $700 dollars alone so im grateful for that. took awhile to get but whatever. this company makes some of the best products out there. whether its ski doo sleds (best selling i do believe) or sea doo watercraft ( top seller probably along with yamaha) so that there has to say something. and mind you can am broke new boundries with the DS. the aluminum frame hasnt had any problems (that i know of) unlike the new yfzr which i havnt heard many good things about. whenever any company takes the "go big or go home" theory like they did in the DS its real easy to be negative whenever something goes wrong. but i on the other hand give them props for some of the stuf they came up with on the DS and now other companies are following in their footsteps trying to catch up. just my .02 cents

[crixal]

i don't know how i can make this any easier for you guys to understand. ALL THE PROBLEMS THAT I HAVE HAD W/ THIS BIKE HAVE BEEN THINGS I HAVE DONE. when i thought the bike was over heating- IT WASN'T!!! i hit a tree a few days before and the spark plug cap came loose. HOW IS THAT CAN AM'S FAULT??? second, line up every 450 and let a z400 t-bone them at 40-50 mph and see what gives. those are the only two problems i have had w/ this bike that has made me lose time on the track or trails. i am not protecting this bike. i would still take a ltr or ktm over the ds anyday. hopefully you guys can understand this.

[mhill157]

Newn you said it.

Hotshot I can agree with you on the Ski-Doos. They are the most reliable sleds on the trail. That is why I bought this can am. My question is why can't they take their years of testing and make a motor that will hold up for more than 40 hrs.

[ProspectorJim]

I would like to point out that nearly all of the people having problems are the ones who bought an 08.

[TNT]

Originally posted by TheNewn
Against my better judgement i decided to throw in my 2 cents.
Before you read further, know that i'm a 20 year old prick that probably doesn't know a thing.


What seems most.....well just plain WEIRD to me, is how someone could defend Can-Am so much (TNT). I imagine EVERYONE reading this knows that it must be very difficult to create and sell a product of any kind and be successful. Especially something as complicated as an ATV.

However, that should by no means 'excuse' them from paying the consequences when their product fails and it is their fault, especially an ATV. The DS was designed to be a high performance fast quad, people are going to be in dangerous situations with the quad that could potentially be fatal is anything important on the quad fails.

People pay good money, 8,000 to me is a lot of money, to have this quad and Can-Am should stick behind it., It does not matter that it is their first year, or first three years, they should stand behind their product. Of course there are going to be issues with the first years, its sadly expected in the industry now from what i gather.

Long story short, the customer should not be shafted because of Can-Am's inability to find all the flaws in their designs before it is released to the public. If and when their product fails to meet up to what it is designed to do, any company that im going to give 8 thousand dollars to better make it right.


Last thing, TNT, i've forgotten who it was exactly, but someone's motor/gears grenaded on them and now the motor requires a full rebuild. And you say that is MINOR? Minor compared to the Honda's and the Yamaha's and others? The most expensive part, or parts, of the quad just failed and need to be replaced, how could that get any worse? Oh yeah, it can get worse because Can-Am wont replace it. Hopefully i read your comment wrong.


And....Done, sorry for the long read guys. If you made it this far, give yourself a beer.

Well I'm just getting caught up on some of this reading and must say I sparked some thoughts and maybe some old wounds up ehhh LTR.....lol! Fair enough now are we done? lol!

This post I like the way this guy thinks for 20 very good! I was just saying or trying to say if you work in a motor shop and crank out 5/day a blown motor or tranny is nothing new, I've seen alot things happen to all motors.

I don't defend can am your right they need to take responsibility, I just know like you it sounds like it takes a few years to work out the bugs....YAM it's been 5 yrs they redesign in 09 and have problems still. I think HON had a good design in 04 that lasted the long haul but now technology is getting ahead of them they need a redesign and that could be for better or worse???... like in any market you redesign to it and new technology, take risk get ahead of the competiton.

Right now we are building a product with mainly composite material more than any other aircraft in the world, we'll we tested the wings flexed them up and they failed at the body joint. We can't test everything we know the first twenty to customers at least will have problems, those aircraft are being discounted by the millions so the customer accepts this, but yes again agree to some extent NTE the discount the manufacture gave to that extent they need to take responsibility. Oh and guess what mhill, aircraft have been around alot longer than quads and we still can't get it perfect in year 1, 2, 3.......ship 20 I doubt we make that thats just a target they have not real!

I think we've seen some drastic improvements in 09, and not to take sides w/can am again, it was not alot this third gear issue on SOME quads, clutch on SOME quads, few other minor things, but if I were an OEM offering a warrantee it would not be to racers that modified my product outside it's design intent or used my product in racing conditions. I think many of you take "race ready" all the oem's advertise out of context, it's stock race ready not modified that don't mean every racer that mod's their quad to the national pro level is covered. If I design the gears and clutch to stock power and torque thats modified and they fail that not my fault and I won't cover it. Theres no way I can design the tranny to all the different torque and power from all the different racer mod's.

PS: Don't apologize for a long post sometimes as you said with something as complicated as a quad and this sport it's necessary. Ill pass on the beer had enough this weekend> LOL!

Good post tho and good thinking for a 20 year prick.....lol! Hey I use to be one at 20 too now almost 50, some things never change!!.LOL!

[craigmacphee]

ProspectorJim:

Not sure about the others but mine is an 09.

And TNT....I thought I had problems with my ATV. That's nothing compared to a set of wings flexing and breaking at 10,000 feet. At least I can walk home if my clutch fails! :)

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by craigmacphee
ProspectorJim:

Not sure about the others but mine is an 09.

And TNT....I thought I had problems with my ATV. That's nothing compared to a set of wings flexing and breaking at 10,000 feet. At least I can walk home if my clutch fails! :)

Most of the others have been 08's. Were you one of the lucky few who got an 09 without the clutch update?

[craigmacphee]

You are absolutely right in your assumption. I was one of the unlucky ones I guess. Craig

[ThePhantomRider]

I think that someone should take a DS with a blown motor, and throw in a freshly built 250r 2 stroke motor....

All you'd have to do really is fab up some new mounts...flip the sprocket and brakes and bam!!! The lightest sport quad on the market...

You figure the chassis and such is a bit lighter than the original 250r, that was about 330 dry so you could get down into the sub 300 pound range....Now we are talking!!!

Just like every other quad there will come a day with a different motor in the DS frame...

Hell I may buy a roller and throw in a ESR 330....that would be a beast!!!

Vanquish....

[ProspectorJim]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
I think that someone should take a DS with a blown motor, and throw in a freshly built 250r 2 stroke motor....

All you'd have to do really is fab up some new mounts...flip the sprocket and brakes and bam!!! The lightest sport quad on the market...

You figure the chassis and such is a bit lighter than the original 250r, that was about 330 dry so you could get down into the sub 300 pound range....Now we are talking!!!

Just like every other quad there will come a day with a different motor in the DS frame...

Hell I may buy a roller and throw in a ESR 330....that would be a beast!!!

Vanquish....

That would be simply amazing.

[ThePhantomRider]

I hope to find out in the next few months...if I can buy a roller, I have a 250r motor in great shape to throw in it...


Vanquish.....

[TheNewn]

A DS rolling chassis with a 250R motor? Now THAT is a good idea. I hope someone does it soonish. I'd love to see some pictures of that.

[grannysleeper]

Hey Craig, if you do decide to try and fix that coolant leak yourself let me know. I AM a mechanic, and have lots of experience with European engineering, like that used on the Rotax stuff. I did my own clutch update a while ago, and still have it in my memory, so maybe I can walk you through your repair. I would even be willing to talk you through it on the phone just to get you racing again. If you get a minute, look and see EXACTLY where your coolant is coming out of and let me know. Not to bash on your dealer once again, but it sounds like they reused all the old seals when they did the clutch update to save a few bucks, which is a major reliability no-no!

Let me know any way I can help you out.

[TNT]

Originally posted by craigmacphee


And TNT....I thought I had problems with my ATV. That's nothing compared to a set of wings flexing and breaking at 10,000 feet. At least I can walk home if my clutch fails! :)

Here is a recent article on this I thought would reinforce everything I have been trying to teach you all about the design and manufacturing world to a lesser degree. Those interested, read this all the way through. I commented "TNT" in some of the areas I have touched on out here in some of my post. It will give you a deeper appreciation of what OEM’s go through to deliver that first quad, and to work out the bug’s once they do. A simular scenario can and does happen in quad testing, design and production.

Boeing has identified and analyzed the structural problem at the wing-to-body join, duplicated it on a computer model and selected a preferred solution. The hangup, he said, is that it's difficult to implement the fix — especially on those planes already built — because of the inaccessibility of the place inside the wing where the modification has to be made.

In addition, he said, Boeing engineers are using "an abundance of caution" to ensure other stress issues are not created by the modification.

TNT: This happens often fix one problem just to cause another.

A Seattle Times story published Wednesday before the earnings release cited two engineers who identified the problem as delamination of the composite-plastic material at a stress point at the end of the long rods, called stringers, used to stiffen each wing.

TNT" Design risk, first ever using composites on a plane this size. Ring a bell? Can am first to put out a robust all alum frame.

The engineers estimated that the fix could delay first flight four to six months even if the fix works, potentially pushing first flight into 2010. When asked directly about that prediction during the conference call, McNerney stuck to his answer that no new schedule is yet available.

The engineers cited in the Times story described the Boeing fix as a redesign at the wing-to-body join that involves only a handful of additional parts at the end of each stringer, but is nevertheless complex to implement. McNerney emphasized that the problem is limited to the join and that the whole wing doesn't need a redesign. "There is nothing we have learned to lead us to believe that this is anything but a local issue, which can be addressed with a local fix," McNerney said.

TNT: What will happen like on quads too I imagine is stress/strain gages are used to determine if the structure can handle the "designed load", more specifically "Yeild Strength" where it begins to creep and fail then in some case "Ultimate Load" where it actually fails intentionally. If it does not meet requirements after the fix it's back to square one and more delays. Planes in this case are tested in a big test fixture, quads probably more by test rider on the track.

Boeing also punted on the financial impact of the new 787 delay, saying the answer cannot be known until the new plan is determined. On the earnings call, Barclays Capital analyst Joe Campbell asked Chief Financial Officer James Bell the question in plain English: "Are you sure that you're not losing money on this thing?"

The concern is that Boeing, despite the huge order book for 850 Dreamliners, may not be able to make enough money on each plane to recover over time all the added costs piling up: the extra research and development needed to solve the current problems, the late penalties that will have to be paid to customers and suppliers, and the cost of holding all the expensive inventory for months longer without any income.

TNT: What I was saying about the quad market that there are conditions where the OEM can not recover cost that is when the program gets cancelled.

Bell disclosed that Boeing has in its inventory almost $8 billion worth of 787 structures work — completed and partially built airplanes — for which it can receive no income until the jets are delivered to customers. He said this 787 work-in-progress inventory is growing at a rate of $800 million per quarter.
In response to Campbell, Bell conceded that the new 787 delay "puts pressure on the profitability of this program."
"We've always been concerned with the cumulative impact of the schedule delays and the pressure it puts on cost," Bell said.
"We also have been concerned with the delays to our customers and how that converts to penalties or the settlements we have to work through with them."

TNT: Many of you get mad when quads are late to dealers but don't realize the pressure and money the OEM looses when they are.

But Bell said Boeing expects to create efficiencies over the expected long production run of the 787 that will reduce costs and increase profit per plane to cover all the extra expenses.

TNT: Meaning over time they will improve the design and lean out the manufacturing process to be more profitable so they can recouple cost on an accelerated schedule. Not uncommon to be years after the first aircraft has been delivered. Quads no different.

"We still believe the program to be profitable," Bell said.
In an interview later, Campbell said that in rough numbers, using the figures released Wednesday, Boeing will have spent up to $13 billion on inventory buildup by the time it starts delivering the 787s. It has maybe an additional $8 billion to $10 billion sunk into research and development, and it's on the hook for a few billion dollars more in customer and supplier penalties.
Campbell estimates that the overrun on costs attributable to the delays up until now is around $6 billion.
But that doesn't include the additional costs being incurred due to the wing-to-body flaw.

TNT: Thats alot of $ to recoupe. Quad same thing to a lesser degree and when the testing and economy goes south like w/Can am not good.

[markeg192]

Originally posted by ThePhantomRider
I think that someone should take a DS with a blown motor, and throw in a freshly built 250r 2 stroke motor....

All you'd have to do really is fab up some new mounts...flip the sprocket and brakes and bam!!! The lightest sport quad on the market...

You figure the chassis and such is a bit lighter than the original 250r, that was about 330 dry so you could get down into the sub 300 pound range....Now we are talking!!!

Just like every other quad there will come a day with a different motor in the DS frame...

Hell I may buy a roller and throw in a ESR 330....that would be a beast!!!

Vanquish....

I bet you never had a 250r. Why would you want to spend $2000 building a ESR330 and then go through the expense and time of putting it in a DS chassis when the original motor will outperform it in the first place? I rode/raced a250r for a few years and would take ANY modern thumper over one.

[grannysleeper]

I'm with you on this one, I USED to be a die hard 2 stroke guy; but after getting beat by just about every bone stock 4 stoke, I finally made the switch. If you can't beat em, join em...

[ThePhantomRider]

Originally posted by markeg192
I bet you never had a 250r. Why would you want to spend $2000 building a ESR330 and then go through the expense and time of putting it in a DS chassis when the original motor will outperform it in the first place? I rode/raced a250r for a few years and would take ANY modern thumper over one.


Hmmm, let's see, I had a 1983 and 1986 ATC 250r's, and a 1989 TRX, I have ridden every 450 excluding the KTM and I can tell you that the big Achilles heel of the DS...don't snicker...is it's weight. It's motor is too fat. When you spend tons of money to create the DS chassis and emphasize weight and then not only build the heaviest motor but one of the more finiky motors out there, what you did was the equallivalant of dropping a big, iron block v-10 into a Viper instead of the aluminum V-10....

Now we drop the weight dramatically, even with a ported and polished 250r motor, if you can lighten other components because they aren't getting a beating from a fat motor you then drop more weight. I guarantee you that you could make it just as durable and weigh under 300 pounds.

That also allows the rider to be less fatigued and the quad more nimble....you need less power to get the same results...As for the ESR idea, that's just an idea. Why not build a motor tailor made to work with the chassis, 250, 310...whatever. I guarantee you if this gets done, you could poll most any pro racer and if you gave them a 250 that weighs under 300 pounds they would take it every day of the week.

Vanquish....

[TNT]

Yeah and that frame was sized to the motor so if you could drop the weight of the motor in theory you could drop the weight of the frame(if you had the tools to redesign it). Your onto a good concept exchanging weight for power to a point where your weight--power ratio exceeds the 450's.

[ThePhantomRider]

Exactly....