15w50 Mobil 1 or Rotella 15w40?

[MtnEX]

Which oil and why for the 400EX?

Both are safe for wet clutches...

[NacsMXer]

This is likely to open up the whole "synthetics are too slippery for your clutches" debate. But we've been through this many times before. We know that the M1 15w50 is ok to use in wet clutches through actual use.

That being said, this is a comparison of a synthetic to a dino oil. As long as the synthetic doesn't cause problems for the clutch (in this case it doesn't)....i'll take the synthetic over the petroleum oil any day.

I think a better comparison would be M1 15w50 vs. Rotella 5w40 (synthetic version). They are both pretty darn good.

But comparing a synthetic vs. non can go on and on forever. I only use conventional oils when breaking in a motor, cam, or a new clutch. Any other time it's synthetics all the way for me.

[nakomis0]

I like the price of the Rotella and I run it 90% of the time, but in the really hot summer any extreme riding I feel better having the mobil1.

[MtnEX]

OK cool, so someone who runs both...


Do you really notice any difference?
Any difference in breakdown or consumption?

[timmy400exfast]

i mobile 1 and it took out my clutch took it to a sand pit it slipped like a mofo

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by timmy400exfast
i mobile 1 and it took out my clutch took it to a sand pit it slipped like a mofo

Which Mobil 1 ?

What makes you think it was the oil?

[timmy400exfast]

10w 30 synthetic it was fine with conventional then i figured i try it one day went down the road to the sand pit for a hour got off went to park it barely moved.....but im just running stock fibers and plates also

[BEAVER.989]

Originally posted by timmy400exfast
10w 30 synthetic it was fine with conventional then i figured i try it one day went down the road to the sand pit for a hour got off went to park it barely moved.....but im just running stock fibers and plates also

You bought the wrong synthetic oil. You need the 15w50, or any onther NON Energy Conserving synthetic that is safe for wet clutches.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by timmy400exfast
10w 30 synthetic it was fine with conventional then i figured i try it one day went down the road to the sand pit for a hour got off went to park it barely moved.....but im just running stock fibers and plates also

Yep.... like beaver said... wrong one...

Most of the car oils now contain friction modifiers to help take the place of the mandated zinc (ZDDP) content reduction (for cat converters on cars).

These friction modifiers will cause the clutch to slip. I think it's a little magnified with synthetics because they do seem to "weep and absorb" into things a little deeper.

But anyways, all of the car 10w30 and below contains friction modifiers and all of the containers labeled "energy conserving" do too.

[timmy400exfast]

it only costed me 30 buckes for the fibers and i just sanded the pressure plates so learn from my mistakes lol

[atvmaster0927]

Rotella T all day here. 15w40 (non-synthetic).
Ran it in every quad I've owned.
VERY cheap and effective.
11 bucks a GALLON in almost all local stores..walmart, advance autos, ect...

[BamBam21]

I've tried a few diff oils in my bike and the best one so far is the Mobil 1 20w50 V-twin, its expensive but no slipping on power shifts on the 2-3, 3-4 shifts. I've never tried the rotella, the 15w50 mobil 1 with the red cap, clutch slipped very BAD.

Thanks BB

[timmy400exfast]

bambam did you switch bottom ends with a xr 400

[CJM]

mobil 1 15w-50 and im very happy with it. I suppose I could use other oils but this one so far has been very good. Yea its expensive at 11 bucks a change-but I ride like 12 hours on changes so thats maybe every 3-5 rides.

I swear by mobil oils, we run mobil clean 5000 in all our work trucks and all of them (including a ford that the bottom end has been going for ages and is abused might I add) keep on going. My boss hasnt changed his oil in his personal work truck in 20k and its still going good. We usually wait every 10k to change.

So im sold on mobil stuff, its well worth the cash.

[MtnEX]

I put the Rotella 15w40 in today.
We'll see how it goes...

But that doesn't have to be the end of the thread and the poll.

[justin1022]

what do yo urun in ur 450? i got a polaris 450 mxr and i run that mobile 1 15:50 its alright so far.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by justin1022
what do yo urun in ur 450? i got a polaris 450 mxr and i run that mobile 1 15:50 its alright so far.

Well, I started out on the Rotella... but the synthetic 5w40 version (also wet clutch OK).

I didn't stick with that though, because I swear I could feel it fading fast under use... because I could feel a decline in the way my 450 shifted in a short time. Change the oil, back to normal...

To me, the interval / cost ratio just wasn't making sense... and I figured I needed a beefier oil. So I moved on to the cheaper 15w40 dino, hoping to also find it beefier.

Too soon to tell right now, and honestly I may not have give the 5w40 a far shake because I just got my quad back from the shop.... and I was lucky I didn't burn it down during break-in.

This ride was my first experience with a titanium header and was lead to believe the heat I was getting off it wasn't excessive. But now that it is back from the shop, I know it was, and I know I could have burned it up had I rode it more.

It was getting a bad reading from a sensor somewhere, and either leaning out the air/fuel or affecting the timing... or both. Glad I took it in for running sub-par.

[VTredneckgames]

I just bought 2 qts of the 15w50 Mobil1 from advance yesterday. I hope I got the right one! Changing the oil friday. Heading up to Crumpler WV this weekend. Hope it goes good.

There is only 1 type of synthetic 15w50 mobil1 right?

[BamBam21]

Originally posted by timmy400exfast
bambam did you switch bottom ends with a xr 400

No I did alot of mods to the ex bottom end, so far I am VERY pleased with the perf I gained, just sometimes hard to start.

Thanks BB

[BamBam21]

Originally posted by VTredneckgames
I just bought 2 qts of the 15w50 Mobil1 from advance yesterday. I hope I got the right one! Changing the oil friday. Heading up to Crumpler WV this weekend. Hope it goes good.

There is only 1 type of synthetic 15w50 mobil1 right?

If you guys have any major mods, the 15w50 with the red cap, it will slip the clutch, if you willing to spend the 11 per quart, buy the 20w50 V-twin Mobil-1, it works great.

Thanks BB

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by MtnEX
Well, I started out on the Rotella... but the synthetic 5w40 version (also wet clutch OK).

I didn't stick with that though, because I swear I could feel it fading fast under use... because I could feel a decline in the way my 450 shifted in a short time. Change the oil, back to normal...

To me, the interval / cost ratio just wasn't making sense... and I figured I needed a beefier oil. So I moved on to the cheaper 15w40 dino, hoping to also find it beefier.

Too soon to tell right now, and honestly I may not have give the 5w40 a far shake because I just got my quad back from the shop.... and I was lucky I didn't burn it down during break-in.

This ride was my first experience with a titanium header and was lead to believe the heat I was getting off it wasn't excessive. But now that it is back from the shop, I know it was, and I know I could have burned it up had I rode it more.

It was getting a bad reading from a sensor somewhere, and either leaning out the air/fuel or affecting the timing... or both. Glad I took it in for running sub-par.

Are you thinking that the additive package in the 15w40 is "beefier" than the 5w40 synthetic Rotella? I heard that the new formulation of Rotella has eliminated the content of ZDDP due to EPA mandates. Gears and valvetrains love ZDDP. I'm sure you realize that they are both the same viscosity under operating temps. I've never tried the 15w40 version or any of the "new" Rotella formulations, just the old versions...please post your results when you can, thanks.

[RIDEREDson]

Originally posted by BamBam21
If you guys have any major mods, the 15w50 with the red cap, it will slip the clutch, if you willing to spend the 11 per quart, buy the 20w50 V-twin Mobil-1, it works great.

Thanks BB

I dont believe that. Even Lazarus, from gt thunder, recommends it in all the motors he builds for the 400's.

[VTredneckgames]

well, Im going to run it and we will see what happens. I'll post up next week with updates on my experience with it.

[BamBam21]

Originally posted by RIDEREDson
I dont believe that. Even Lazarus, from gt thunder, recommends it in all the motors he builds for the 400's.



Well everyone has their own opinions and experiences. I had a clutch slipping problem with the 15w50 Mobil-1, changed to the 20w50 V-twin synthetic Mobil-1 and problem is gone (with the same clutch). I'm not saying it's not good oil, b/c I think its great oil, just not for this application (my opinion). The 20w50 V-twin synthetic is specific for AIR COOOLED/ WET CLUTCH engines.

Thanks BB

This topic will always be a BIG debate!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yea and I happen to build engines for a living also, mostly Drag racing engines.

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by BamBam21
Well everyone has their own opinions and experiences. I had a clutch slipping problem with the 15w50 Mobil-1, changed to the 20w50 V-twin synthetic Mobil-1 and problem is gone (with the same clutch). I'm not saying it's not good oil, b/c I think its great oil, just not for this application (my opinion). The 20w50 V-twin synthetic is specific for AIR COOOLED/ WET CLUTCH engines.

Thanks BB

This topic will always be a BIG debate!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yea and I happen to build engines for a living also, mostly Drag racing engines.

What Mobil 1 15w50 red cap are you talking about?

They don't make the 15w50 red cap anymore, it has been discontinued. When they did make it, many people on this site ran it in their 400's...it was THE oil to use back then. It was so popular because it was the single formulation of Mobil 1 that was found safe to use in wet clutches.

It has been replaced by the Mobil 1 15w50 with the silver cap/red label and the Mobil 1 15w50 extended performance with the gold cap/gold label.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by BamBam21
Well everyone has their own opinions and experiences. I had a clutch slipping problem with the 15w50 Mobil-1, changed to the 20w50 V-twin synthetic Mobil-1 and problem is gone (with the same clutch). I'm not saying it's not good oil, b/c I think its great oil, just not for this application (my opinion). The 20w50 V-twin synthetic is specific for AIR COOOLED/ WET CLUTCH engines.

Thanks BB

This topic will always be a BIG debate!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh yea and I happen to build engines for a living also, mostly Drag racing engines.

That's interesting... I have to go back and dig now... which might help us all get to the bottom of things...

I've seen lab oil analysis on both of those oils and don't remember seeing any considerable difference at the time... but now I'll look them over with a different perspective.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by NacsMXer


It has been replaced by the Mobil 1 15w50 with the silver cap/red label and the Mobil 1 15w50 extended performance with the gold cap/gold label.

The extended performance is or will be discontinued... or did I tell you that already?

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by MtnEX
The extended performance is or will be discontinued... or did I tell you that already?

I knew, I was just mentioning the versions of 15w50 out there that don't cause clutch issues. I don't know what red cap version he was using, the original 15w50 "red cap" was discontinued quite a while ago. Doesn't cause any clutch issues either. I still have a few quarts of it that I stockpiled years ago.

[MtnEX]

I've went back and looked at the numbers on the V-Twin and the 15w50...

They are pretty much identical, other than 2 small differences...

The V-Twin has a bit higher flash point and contains a bit more zinc content (ZDDP).


So it is slightly superior to the 15w50.
But it cost exactly 2.5 times as much.
($4.20 v/s $10.50)

Better, yes... but not 250% better.




As for the wet clutch stuff... moly seems to be considered the "offending additive"... but that's bulls#it too...

BOTH oils contain moly, and both have the same content... about 90 ppm.

[hypersnyper6947]

Originally posted by MtnEX
The extended performance is or will be discontinued... or did I tell you that already?

Yea i have not been able to find it anywhere, is the new silver cap the same as the old gold cap or are they different?

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by NacsMXer
Are you thinking that the additive package in the 15w40 is "beefier" than the 5w40 synthetic Rotella? I heard that the new formulation of Rotella has eliminated the content of ZDDP due to EPA mandates. Gears and valvetrains love ZDDP. I'm sure you realize that they are both the same viscosity under operating temps. I've never tried the 15w40 version or any of the "new" Rotella formulations, just the old versions...please post your results when you can, thanks.

No, I'm thinking in terms of hard service that less viscosity index improvers = better... in other words more actual base oil per quart.

5w40 v/s 15w40


You heard wrong on the Rotella... Everything is going to 'reduced' ZDDP/Zinc levels to meet EPA mandates... and I think the regular passenger car motor oils for gas engines have to meet a little stricter mandate.

Rotella has reduced zinc levels slightly... "has" meaning they DID back in 2007... zinc levels did come down a little with the CJ-4 formulation... but it was reformulated at that time to actually EXCEED the previous oil in wear protection... and it does.


When considering an oil's zinc/ZDDP content, it is important to keep two key things in perspective...

1- Zinc is important in that it is added to act as your very last line of defense before metal-to-metal contact. It's like life insurance. It's there, but you hope you never have to use it.

2- For true protection, the QUALITY of the zinc content is more important than the quantity of it. So more does not automatically mean better. Several have proved this fact by 'shear testing to point of failure'... and some oils with very high zinc content faired the worst, proving the point.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by hypersnyper6947
Yea i have not been able to find it anywhere, is the new silver cap the same as the old gold cap or are they different?

To be honest, there never was really that much a difference in any of the three that I could find.

The silver cap was just the next API class of the red cap... virtually identical, and so was the gold cap EP. It may have had a bit more TBN and additives.... for extreme extended drain runs in cars.

The V-Twin and the EP probably contain slightly more of the highest group synthetics in the base blend.

[hypersnyper6947]

so then i should be fine using the silver cap red label 15w50, i change my oil pretty regularly anyways.

[atvmaster0927]

I still run Rotella T conventional. Been since 06, with ZERO problems... Just sayin...

[NacsMXer]

Originally posted by MtnEX
No, I'm thinking in terms of hard service that less viscosity index improvers = better... in other words more actual base oil per quart.

5w40 v/s 15w40


You heard wrong on the Rotella... Everything is going to 'reduced' ZDDP/Zinc levels to meet EPA mandates... and I think the regular passenger car motor oils for gas engines have to meet a little stricter mandate.

Rotella has reduced zinc levels slightly... "has" meaning they DID back in 2007... zinc levels did come down a little with the CJ-4 formulation... but it was reformulated at that time to actually EXCEED the previous oil in wear protection... and it does.


When considering an oil's zinc/ZDDP content, it is important to keep two key things in perspective...

1- Zinc is important in that it is added to act as your very last line of defense before metal-to-metal contact. It's like life insurance. It's there, but you hope you never have to use it.

2- For true protection, the QUALITY of the zinc content is more important than the quantity of it. So more does not automatically mean better. Several have proved this fact by 'shear testing to point of failure'... and some oils with very high zinc content faired the worst, proving the point.

Very good info. That makes sense about the viscosity index.

I'm still not sold on the 15w40 being better than the synthetic version but I am extremely curious to try it.

The only thing that worries me about using conventional oils in the 400EX is it is such a "hot" running motor. I don't want the oil being broken down into a 30 weight or 20 weight due to extreme heat. I have no idea which version of Rotella fairs better in that respect though one would tend to think the synthetic would hold up better.

It would be cool if someone could do some VOA lab testing on the two different oils to see in all actuality how much the motor is wearing as well as how the oil is holding up. I realize not everyone is willing to do this, so again if you could post your subjective results with the 15w40 when you can that would be great :)

[MtnEX]

Yes... I totally understand on the heat...

VI improver content and flash point is a big deal... as well as just how tough overall the oil is...

The high flash point keeps it from having evaporation loss off hot engine parts and flashing or burning off the cylinder walls.

The VI improvers are what breaks down and allows the oils to have loss too, and more importantly a drop in viscosity.


Another thing most people miss is that not all synthetics are created equally. Some are "true" synthetics, and the rest are in the Castrol synthetics group... Legal to label as 'synthetic' but really just highly refined petroleum.

The better dino base oils like Shell and Chevron/Texaco and Mobil that are hydro-cracked, iso-dewaxed, etc, are not much below that group that's being labeled synthetic and are much better than what dino oil used to be.

[KevinAb]

Wow, I run Rotella 15w-40 in my diesel truck with no issues. But I never thought of running it in my 400.

I just run the GN4 10w-40 as recommended by both local Honda dealers (and purchased there, hmm...) No issues here. But if it's good enough for the dealer.

[KevinAb]

...really though, as long as you run a decent oil that meets the factory specs, and change it regularly, you won't have issues. If you do have issues, it's probably not oil related, though you may blame it.

Sounds like some have been reading too much marketing info or research info produced by the oil companies.

[atvmaster0927]

Originally posted by KevinAb
...really though, as long as you run a decent oil that meets the factory specs, and change it regularly, you won't have issues. If you do have issues, it's probably not oil related, though you may blame it.

Sounds like some have been reading too much marketing info or research info produced by the oil companies.

x2. Which is why I don't understand why people go and spend $10+ on (1) quart of oil when you can get (1) gallon of Rotella T for $11.

[KevinAb]

Originally posted by atvmaster0927
x2. Which is why I don't understand why people go and spend $10+ on (1) quart of oil when you can get (1) gallon of Rotella T for $11.

Exactly.

I have a buddy who is an Amsoil distributor and makes a lot of claims about getting the viscosity checked between oil changes- "It maintains viscosity and you can wait 20k miles between changes...you can get it lab tested between changes..." referring to my truck. I wouldn't do that with any oil. How about the filter and the crap it collects?

Use a decent oil, change it regularly, and you won't have engine problems related to oil breakdown. Surely don't use a synthetic for any new rebuild, but don't over analyze it.

my $.02 (just a dumbass engineer who has built a few motors)

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by KevinAb
Wow, I run Rotella 15w-40 in my diesel truck with no issues. But I never thought of running it in my 400.

I just run the GN4 10w-40 as recommended by both local Honda dealers (and purchased there, hmm...) No issues here. But if it's good enough for the dealer.

You can run the Rotella in anything that can use that viscosity. Diesel, Gas, Motorcycle wet clutch...

They make a 10w30 that is just as good too that could be used in lower viscosity applications. But nobody here shelves it.


It might just be me, but I trust a oil brand name over a "labeled" oil for OEM brand name.

All the MFG's "contract" with a supplier... they make quads, not oil. So it's really not a lot different in my eyes than Wal-Mart SuperTech, Napa, Autozone, O'Reilly, etc... Labeled oil, by a contractor with the lowest bid.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by atvmaster0927
x2. Which is why I don't understand why people go and spend $10+ on (1) quart of oil when you can get (1) gallon of Rotella T for $11.

That in a nutshell is what I have the biggest problem with doing myself.

I have a hard time seeing the logic in that for off-road applications.

Unless it can give me more ride time and less wrench time, I can't justify it.

And if it could stand up to that, I'm still not sure it's a good idea... because the oil has to get pretty contaminated... to the point where it is probably a better idea to get clean oil in there instead of "better oil".

[Kevslatvin]

I've been running the Rotella T 15w40 since last Sept. Used the Castrol 4T 20w50 before that. The Rotella stays clean looking on the dipstick longer and feels like it shifts better, but I read somewhere the Castrol 4T wasn't very good oil. I will run Rotella from here on. I'm too cheap to pay more and it works well.

[atvmaster0927]

Originally posted by Kevslatvin
I've been running the Rotella T 15w40 since last Sept. Used the Castrol 4T 20w50 before that. The Rotella stays clean looking on the dipstick longer and feels like it shifts better, but I read somewhere the Castrol 4T wasn't very good oil. I will run Rotella from here on. I'm too cheap to pay more and it works well.

Yes.
I am telling all of you who say Rotella is sh*t, to go out and buy some. Best oil for the money and it's cheap.
There are many many big name engine builders that swear by this stuff.
Rotella T is the best oil hands down.

[MtnEX]

I went to the Rotella 15w40 and it seems to be doing well in the EX so far.

When I did the valve work the other day, I was really impressed with how well it clings to the part surfaces up in the top end.


Seems to be standing up to my 400EX better than my KFX 450R.

I am tempted to try the 15w50 Mobil 1 in it.
I'm given the impression it is super hard on oil.

[CJM]

Been very happy with the 15w-50 mobil 1 in my 400., no issues at all.

[SNO_DAY]

MY SON HAS BEEN USING VALVOLINE 10W40 ATV OIL # V V 749. IT IS WET CLUTCH APPROVED AND SO FAR NO PROBS. DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY OPINION ON THIS OIL?

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by SNO_DAY
MY SON HAS BEEN USING VALVOLINE 10W40 ATV OIL # V V 749. IT IS WET CLUTCH APPROVED AND SO FAR NO PROBS. DOES ANYONE ELSE HAVE ANY OPINION ON THIS OIL?

I think it will be fine... if the bike rarely sits for long between rides.

I say that because I saw an independent test on several motorcycle oils, and this oil certainly did not fare well on the rust protection test.


It's fairly expensive for a dino oil, BECAUSE OF the ATV labeling.

[bigbad400]

you guys all look too much into this, without a brand name all conventional oil is from 3 main distributors and haliburton oil makes over 90% of the oil we use in america today. (between gas, deisel, and oil.)


when it comes to synthetic oil mobil one and rotella are basically the same thing with dif tags on em. it all boils down to were your oil comes from, mobile one makes valvoline, castral oil makes super clean. who would u trust a cleaner manufacturer or an oil manufacturer? bottom line you get what you pay for. all the honda and yamaha brand oils are from amsoil or mobil one anyhow. dont waste money on 10$ a quart oil when mobile one is what comes in the bottle.