"New" 89 cyl to replace my "old" cracked 87 cyl.

[Buttermilk]

Some time back, after long hours of porting, tuning, tweaking, numerous changes and several trips to the dyno, I cracked the cylinder on my 87 250R.

I was quite dissappointed, since I'd hit 56.4 hp / 34.6 tq on my last dyno session, running TT111 fuel.

However, the last time the cylinder cracked, the cylinder wouldn't keep fluid in the radiator, so on to another cylinder.

I found a cylinder that had not been touched by a porting tool, and one that had an aluminum sleeve installed. After about 23-24 hours with the porting tools, and nikasil plating by Millenium Technologies the cylinder is now ready to run. Currently waiting on a couple of domes......

Below, in the picture, the cylinder on the left is the 89, while the cracked 87 is on the right.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160185.jpg

Below, this pic is a top down view of the 89 cyl.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160186.jpg

Top down view of the 87 cyl below:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160187.jpg

Below is the 89 cyl intake view:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160188.jpg

Below is the 87 cyl intake view:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160189.jpg

Below is the 89 cyl transfer tunnels:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160191.jpg

Below is the 87 cyl transfer tunnels:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160193.jpg

Exhaust port of the 89 cyl:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160194.jpg

Exhaust port of the 87 cyl:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160196.jpg

87 cyl with the crack (first crack caused by the base nuts loosening up ever so slightly...., second crack caused by a lean acceleration pop coming out of a corner on a flattrack after the pipe built up some heat....)
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160197.jpg

This pic below is an inside view of the exhaust:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160198.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160203.jpg

inside view of the intake:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160201.jpg

Inside view of the transfer ports:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160199.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160200.jpg

Pic below is the intake:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160201.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160202.jpg

Some closeups of the transfer tunnels:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160205.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160209.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160208.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160207.jpg
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P5160206.jpg

Now, after I get the domes I am waiting on, I will be taking it back to the dyno to see what I got..... :)

Regards,

Rog

[deathman53]

you don't have a 89 cylinder, thats a hrc cylinder that only factory racers had. They had ncikel-sil bore, no steel or aluminium sleeve pressed in. They look just like stock from the outside, but porting is very different, better cooling and made way more power.

[Buttermilk]

Yes, I do have an '89 cylinder. I know who installed the sleeve, and where the cylinder came from. :)

The cylinder was re-sleeved with an aluminum sleeve by a local machinist and then I had to port it, plus bore it to the bore size I wanted, plus I personally sent it off to Millenium Technologies to be plated.

Here's a picture of it before the port work was completed:
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/P3170036.jpg

This pic shows the aluminum sleeve (the line is visible where the sleeve meets the cylinder).

Trust me, It AIN'T an HRC cylinder.... :)

Regards,

Rog

[hondamancbr03]

Buttermilk,
do you have the port numbers on the 87 cylinder that you were able to get 54hp? My buddy just picked up an 87 and would like to get something close to that out of it.

Nice looking new cylinder, if you put it on the dyno let me know what you get out of it.

[Buttermilk]

Yep, got the numbers :). 56.4 HP (not 54.... :))

Exhaust was set to 194 degrees,
Transfers were set to 128 degrees.

However, it's not all in the port timings. There's angles to consider, and something that I think get over looked a lot: transfer volumes. I spent a lot of time on the 87 cylinder increasing the transfer volumes. If you actually have an 87 oem cylinder take a long look at the transfers. Two of the four have a lot less volume than even an unported '86, '88, and '89 cylinder. I spent a lot of time opening up the transfers, carefully tracking the volumes and went from there.

Even on the 89 cylinder pictured above, I've still spend a considerable amount of time increasing the transfer volume over the un-ported volume.

Using a ESR 11 inframe pipe and a 41.5 taperbored carb (PWK), CR ignition advanced. .... etc.

I've got a long writeup on this cylinder in the dyno section that details all of the specifics related to the build.

Here's the dyno chart.

Regards,

Rog

[hondamancbr03]

I completely agree with you!! The roof angles and entry angles of the transfers greatly affect power delivery and hp, and they are the most difficult to access and work on!
I was comparing the pictures and the 87 looks like it has more transfer area than the 89 but hard to tell from pictures....The exhaust on the 87 looks good too.

Nothing better than doing your own port work and then leaving your buddy's in the dust!:)
Thanks for the numbers......I'll check out the write up.

[Buttermilk]

The two port jobs are about as close as I could get them with a couple of differences. I have just a bit more exhaust timing on the 89 cyl and also went a tiny bit more on the transfers, but not hardly enough to change things (certainly can be altered by using different gasket thicknesses and also adjusting the dome for such....).

My port maps also show that I've essentially duplicated the porting with the two above differences. T/A of the two are very close as well.

The transfer area favors the 89 cyl just a tad (not the 87). The sleeve that was installed in each respective cylinder was a bit different for each. The 87 steel sleeve (an LA Sleeve that I had installed) had different openings on the secondary transfers as it came, as compared to the 89 aluminum sleeve. The aluminum sleeve in the 89 cylinder had larger (ie wider) openings as it came from LA Sleeve for the secondary transfers.

With the way the sleeves were as they came, I wound up having slightly more T/A for the secondary transfers on the 89 cyl and slightly less T/A for the primary transfers.

Time area of the two cylinders is still pretty close overall. However, volumes of the two cylinders tranfers are very very close to each other.

Hopefully the 89 cyl will match the output of the 87, but who knows.... it may not....

Regards,

Rog

[Buttermilk]

Here's a port map of the 87 cylinder

Note that the deck height was not zero, but was ~ -1.5mm (0.058" to be exact).

http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/87cylportmap.jpg

Below is the 89 cylinder before boring/plating. I have another port map of this cylinder, but I will need to scan it before I can post it. It shows the ports after boring and plating. This one is pretty close though.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg8/Buttermilk421/89cylportedunplated.jpg

Regards,

Rog

[hondamancbr03]

Great job on the port maps!!! Your port numbers on lean towards the aggressive side, are you using this as an all around bike or drag only? I noticed the ESR11 pipe doesn't hold the hp for very long, have you tried other pipes? I'm putting my friends R at 189E/188T, we ride in the sand mostly and like the pull off the bottom into the mid.
I just purchased my first R and it's a 350PV, haven't thrown a wheel on it yet to see what the numbers are.....Do you have any experience with the 350PV motors?

Thanks for sharing the info, most people gaurd that stuff:)

[Buttermilk]

I am using some aggressive port timings. My first port job was at 190 degrees on the exhaust, and 128 degrees on the transfers. That produced only 43 hp with the setup I was running at the time (Sparks TT pipe, 38 A/S PWK carb, etc.)

I changed the porting to get more blowdown and started trying different things on the dyno to get better power.

The quad was built primarily as a flattrack/TT quad, and also to be used as a play bike. The flattrack/TT thing kinda slowed down a bit since my son now has a four stroke. I was just getting this thing to where it would come off the corners as good as the 4 strokes....... I now have plans to race it myself.....

If I were to use it primarily as a drag only quad, the porting would most likely be even more aggressive.

On my setup (before the cylinder cracked again), going from 193 degrees exhaust to 194 degrees exhaust (plus loosening up the squish eversoslightly, and dropping the compression eversoslightly) allowed me to go from 51.4 HP to 55.3 HP, with no significant loss in bottom end power. In fact, the average HP/TQ went up.

I have tried different pipes, and the ESR11 has given me the best overall power. I've even tried the ESR5, and my setup liked the 11 by just a bit. The Sparks TT pipe had more over-rev, but was down by 5 hp at the peak when compared to the ESR5, and the ESR11 on my motor beat the ESR5 by 2 hp, plus had more power everywhere, particularly in the middle.

Don't have any experience with the 350PV. That E timing seems a bit on the low side to me.... :) I try to set my timings to "fit" the pipe I will be running. Some pipes seem to do better with lower port timings.

I think the ESR pipes like some timings that are at least leaning towards the aggressive side. Just my opinion based on a very few observations.

Regards,

Rog

[hondamancbr03]

What is your blow down? I usually shot for 32degrees, but my bikes are usually meant for play bikes. My first Banshee I mainly raced so i put it at 198E/132T, it was mostly just a light switch.

I completely agree with porting to the pipe......I've seen a lot of people have their engines ported and then they put on a pipe that ends up short changing the port work.

Did you port both cylinders? the hand work on the new cylinder is very nice. I can see a lot of hours spent on that cylinder.

[Buttermilk]

Yes I did port both cylinders. 87 cyl was a bit "ugly" compared to the 89 cyl. But sometimes "ugly" outruns "pretty". Seen it happen.


I set my blowdown to 33 degrees on the 87 cylinder. 89 Cylinder will be right at 33.5 degrees blowdown.

You listed 189E/188T, but I assume you meant 189E/128T. That still seems a bit low on the blowdown.

[hondamancbr03]

Yes...Typo! Actually i meant 189E/118T. Arlen with LED (LRD) built my first Banshee probably 15yrs ago and set my timing at 189E/118T, reshaped the transfer angles toward the intake area, and flatened the transfer roofs a little farther in...That engine had little to no power band, pulled right off bottom and never stopped. My buddy wants his power to come on the same. We both enjoy that feeling of letting off the throttle and jumping right back into it with no bog.

I can see your hand work increased greatly from the 87 to the 89 cylinder......

[Buttermilk]

Thanks. However, that 89 cylinder looks as good as it does for reasons other than my hand work. The cylinder got sand blasted a bit in the port area just to help smooth things up a bit, and the plating "flashed" into the ports as well, giving it that really "neat" look.

My porting was better (ie - steadier hand) on the 89 cylinder though.

I've ran Banshees setup with 188 E / 120T timing combined with FMF Fatty pipes. Works pretty good.

Best Regards,

Rog