how are we gonna beat ethanol?

[honda400ex2003]

So what are we going to do now that all of the gas we can buy is ethanol 10%. Our premium started to get switched this week. What do you guys think you are going to do to offset this crap eating our machines? I am thinking about some of that stabil marine stuff for ethanol or putting a cap full of oil in the 5 of gas before we fill them up. i think this would help to keep everything in the carb lubed a bit from the ethanol. I know it is not that much but i dont want to deal with fourwheelers going bad to along with the rest of the stuff i had get messed up this past year. our jetskis got all messed up and some more stuff. the carbs are getting eaten up. What do you guys think we should do to offset this a bit? steve

[honda400ex2003]

what do you guys think about running the marine formula ethanol fighting stabil. i think it will work great in the fourwheelers if it will work good in boats. it says it gives the 10% a 1 year shelf life instead of 3 months. that is pretty good. Plus it helps to keep the water out of the gas that the ethanol absorbs. Maybe the regular stuff works good but the marine stuff is made to fight ethanol better it looks like. I am not sure, what do you guys think? steve

[storms400ex]

illinois has had 10% in most 91 up octane for along time

[honda400ex2003]

bummer, they just made it law i guess to start putting it in up here. steve

[UnderFire]

Ethanol won't be around for long, it causes more air pollution than gasoline, the only reason it's better is the fact that it is renewable.

[honda400ex2003]

i really hope that i did not get my last 15 gallons of 93 today. It is going to suck. I drove into town looking for 93 instead of the 91 i usually get. i stocked up for a while anyway. I am going to try that new stabil marine stuff just for some added satifaction. if it helps give it a better shelf life that is much better. any other ideas on what to use. i wonder if sea foam will work and do the same. steve

[Wheelie]

E-10 gasoline won't hurt anything. I've been running 80% E85 in my quad for several months and no issues to date.

The rumors of Ethanol eating rubber components and damaging engines is a complete farse. It's a myth and an untrue one at that.

Stabil is great for keeping gas from turning to varnish, however, it doesn't keep gas from losing it's octane.

E85 burns MUCH cleaner than gasoline, it causes less pollution than gasoline.

A lot of myths in this thread, none of them true.

i've been using the 10% or less in my 92/93 octane for a long time now over a year and i have no problems. Doesnt seem to be enough of a percentage to screw things up.

[honda400ex2003]

alright well thanks for clearing it up a bit. i know that i have had a bunch of trouble with a ton of different motors over the last year and they all are engine related and carb related at that. not to go against what you are saying but i have seen it first hand. i have had 5 different motors take a crap all after running great for up to 25 years on our ice auger. we have 2 1996 jetskis that are messed up, a 1998 snowmobile that blew up from lack of gas, and lawn equipment that does not run. All of this in the last year. guess what they all need the carbs rebuilt or replaced cause the seals are eaten up and corroded. they ran fine with no problems then all of a sudden last year when all of the stations around here switched to ethanol we had to start running it. this was when gas was at 4.50+ and money was a bit tighter. some of them sat for the winter and others for the summer. All of them are still and were treated with sea foam before they were put away. this has been the treatment of choice since they have been owned. So i guess farse or not i have seen some of the effects or this gas. maybe it is a bunch of myths but some of the info i just read about says the same stuff i just listed. I have read this on stabils site and other reputable sites. I want to see some of the good stuff you are talking about where it says it is ok. I dont doubt that you can run it all the time easy enough but i am talking about everything, storage and all. is the stabil going to help with all of this stuff or is there a better way to help fight it off? I hope you are right. i really do and i dont doubt what you are saying. Thanks for the advice i will keep it in mind. at least according to the one attendant i was talking to, he said it is just for the summer months and they are going to switch it back to regular for the winter but until i see it going down that way i need to start preparing for winter now since some of it still has ethanol gas in it. Steve

[honda400ex2003]

I dont think it will hurt anything if they stay running throughout the year. Do you guys drive them often or at least once a month or so? I am curious cause this may have to be an option for me if they do not switch back for the winter. I may just have to run all of this stuff all the time or at least once a month for even 10 minutes. I dont want to seem like i am blaming the gas or going against you guys i do believe the same as you. the problem with this stuff is it does not get ridden enough. my mom and sisters machines dont go through 2 or 3 tanks of gas a year. they dont ride that often. thanks again and i dont want to sound mean or anything i was just showing where i am coming from on this. we are selling the jetskis so we dont have to worry about them anymore but the rest of the boats, our 4 fourwheelers, and our other snowmobile are what i am worried about this winter. steve

[Snipe]

I have worked on city trucks before running a higher percantage E85 like 30% or better and its rotted the trucks out fuel lines, blocks, whole nine yards it was a mess lets just say the city dont run E85 any more and only place that offers it is caseys and most dont buy there cause of it.

Oh and you will notice a decrease in fuel milleage as well. You can believe what you want but your talking to a mechanic who first hand saw the destruction of it, it will never touch anything of mine not even my truck.

[honda400ex2003]

they are required the stations to have it around here now. it really sucks. all but 1 station doesnt offer anything but ethanol and the 1 that does has both. the premium wasnt but is being switched over now so we will not have a choice. you are lucky you can still get regular. it is sure a bummer. steve

[416exman21]

lets hope they don't put that stuff in our 110 i'll be screwed.......it is $7 a gallon but i like that smell and it the cleanest stuff out their...

[honda400ex2003]

I just found out that i can get turbo blue within a half hour of my house so that may have to the last option, higher comp, here i come :devil: and studs too. i would make it 12:1 at least if i ran that all the time. maybe even 13:1. WOW that would be sweet, I cant imagine how fast it would be considering mine now. Steve

[Snipe]

If oil didnt hold so much damn water would be cool to see one running on recycled cooking oil but damn man that crap has problems to.

Next thing would be propane but were would we store the massive bottles lol.

Maybe E85 is just a governmental consipracy that the ATV activist **** heads cooked up to cut off our life line's lmao

[mooseracerX]

E85 and ethanol is kinda dumb to me because you get worse mileage in cars. Sure E85 is cheaper but you got to put more of it in, where is the benefit of that.

[Honda#4]

I just found out that i can get turbo blue within a half hour of my house so that may have to the last option, higher comp

X2!! I seen yesterday eating at Arby's that they sell it in Green Bay at a shell station, really ticks me off now cuz I could have went to a 12:1 comp grrr!!!!!!:mad: Oh well it will come next build for sure.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by mooseracerX
E85 and ethanol is kinda dumb to me because you get worse mileage in cars. Sure E85 is cheaper but you got to put more of it in, where is the benefit of that.

It's renewable, it's doesn't support the middle east--it supports Americans.

It's great for an air-cooled engine because it burns cooler, and cools the engine much better than gasoline. It also makes more power than gasoline, up to 5-10% more power.

[Wheelie]

One more note, it's 105 octane right out of the pump.

[honda400ex2003]

i know that is all good stuff and helps us out i am just wondering what we should do to store stuff with this gas for long times and if it is going to hurt this stuff. I dont need any more practice tearing stuff apart to fix it. i think we are just gonna run marine stabil in everything and see how it goes. I hope everything is alright. is there any other good things you can do to protect this stuff from the alcohol in the ethanol or what this is the question. maybe a bit of 2 stroke oil in the gas would help to keep everything from getting eaten up from the gas. i know some of the benees are great with ethanol but the bad thing about it is letting it sit for long times. the shelf life is only 3 months. for stuff that is ran all the time it is not a problem since it is getting used and replaced. steve

[mooseracerX]

Originally posted by Wheelie
It's renewable, it's doesn't support the middle east--it supports Americans.

It's great for an air-cooled engine because it burns cooler, and cools the engine much better than gasoline. It also makes more power than gasoline, up to 5-10% more power.
- 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.
- Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline.

[Snipe]

Yeah ethonal and hydrogen are in the same boat on that cost more to produce and it actually causes more power waste in turn the power wasted to produce it is off setting the use of using ethanol.

[baker420ex]

"the ethanol cure"
http://mystarbrite.com/startron//content/view/14/37/lang,en/

[sprayedgt]

Originally posted by Wheelie
It's renewable, it's doesn't support the middle east--it supports Americans.


Ethanol is also hydroscopic. So in a vented fuel system, over time, pulls moisture into your tank. That is where most of the damage comes from. It will also destroy fuel lines unless they are alcohol safe. You need more to do the same amount of work as gasoline. Yes it will make your engine run cooler, but at the expense of longevity. There really is NO benefit other than satisfying the tree huggers.

[TRXRacer1]

Been running E85 for a couple years now and to anyone that says it ruins engines you couldn't be any further from the truth. Properly jetted there is nothing but positives with this fuel. It does have a slight cooling effect, it does have an octane rating of 105, it does make better power even though you need more of it and it does not corrode like alcohol. I do keep it in ventless cans and I have check valves on my tank caps to prevent too much moisture absorbtion and I can honestly say that not one rubber hose, o-ring or gasket has been harmed even after sitting around for months. The only thing I hate about it is that it is related to tree hugers and I'm not that guy.

As far as reading your information from reputable resources that just happen to profit from selling products related to the issue, you might want to think if they have any reason to make you think you need their products. It's all bull****t!

[honda400ex2003]

Do you ride your machine more than once every 2 or 3 months? exactly my point. i am not saying it is bad to run, i am talking about how we can store stuff like boats, snowmobiles, and atvs. This is my concern since we have all of them and have seen the problems caused by letting this crap sit in machines over the winter and in the summer for long periods of time. steve

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by honda400ex2003
Do you ride your machine more than once every 2 or 3 months? exactly my point. i am not saying it is bad to run, i am talking about how we can store stuff like boats, snowmobiles, and atvs. This is my concern since we have all of them and have seen the problems caused by letting this crap sit in machines over the winter and in the summer for long periods of time. steve Re-read the second to last sentence in the first paragraph of my post. No storage issues in any of my machines.

I'm willing to bet though if you let it sit for months against a REALLY old gasket that's being held together with varnish and crud you might have problems.

[boosted3g]

Sounds to me like the best solution for you is to actually ride your machine more than once every few months. To tell you the truth the best solution is to top off the tank and you will never have a problem with it absorbing moisture. Its what every drag racer that runs alcohol does. This is with 100% methanol not 10% ethanol that your fuel will now have. It will not hurt anything as stated in your owners manual.

[honda400ex2003]

That would probably be the best bet. thanks for the info. It is tough to ride jetskis and take boats for rides all winter long, along with riding snowmobiles in the summer. i dont care about this anymore since we got some stabil and i guess we will see how it goes this winter. we got to sell the 2 jetskis we had while they were not running right for a loss before we learned of water getting into the gas after selling them, our boats all had to get the gas dumped out of the tanks and put fresh in after winter, and one of our snowmobiles blew up first ride out. i guess you are right that the ethanol in the gas does not make a difference and i am done arguing with people about it. i will run the ethanol treatment stabil if you guys say ethanol is good or not. it is piece of mind for me anyway and will most likely save me a ton of money since i will not have to rebuild motors and such. you guys can do what you want i wish you the best with your machines, i hope your luck is better than mine. steve

[Wheelie]

There have been some issues out there with E10 gasoline, mainly due to the engine running slightly leaner. If people rejet their machines slightly richer, there won't be any issues.


There's a member over at E85Performance that put an accelerator pump in E85 a couple years ago--the pump looks like it did when he put it in there. Ethanol does not cause issues with non-alcohol specific components. The only people that believe this hype are the people that have no experience with it.


I've been running a E85 blend for several months, no corrosion, no carb issues, fuel line isn't rotting. Quad runs better than it ever has, more power, runs cooler and it's cheaper alternative than race gas.

My only complaint with E85 is how long a tank a fuel lasts with a 240 main installed.

[Wheelie]

One more note.

As stated earlier in this thread. A lot of people confuse Ethanol with Methanol. When they hear Ethanol they immediately think alcohol and that brings to mind Methanol, which is corrosive and requires alcohol specific fuel components.

The two fuels are very different.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by sprayedgt
Ethanol is also hydroscopic. So in a vented fuel system, over time, pulls moisture into your tank. That is where most of the damage comes from. It will also destroy fuel lines unless they are alcohol safe. You need more to do the same amount of work as gasoline. Yes it will make your engine run cooler, but at the expense of longevity. There really is NO benefit other than satisfying the tree huggers.

Well, there is a lot of confusion on my part about what is what... and much of it is because here in North Carolina they are not "required" to post ANYTHING on the pump. They put in it what they like.

So, here I was getting gas at the same place I always do for my quads, and started having problems.

It started with a leaky needle in my Polaris. Damaged.

So I switched from Citgo to Hess and have been fine... but the damage was already done to my 400EX.

It eat the fuel line off it... so I put back a complete clear one... and saw water moving through the line.

Here is what I just drained out of my 400EX and let settle...

So you all tell me WTF?

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by sprayedgt
Ethanol is also hydroscopic. So in a vented fuel system, over time, pulls moisture into your tank.

This is correct, Ethanol does draw moisture, it also bonds and carries water. This is why Heat works well for fuel systems with moisture in them, the alcohol will bond with the water, carry it, and make it burnable.



It will also destroy fuel lines unless they are alcohol safe.

No. Methanol requires specific fuel components. Ethanol does not, it will not ruin the fuel system.


You need more to do the same amount of work as gasoline. Yes it will make your engine run cooler, but at the expense of longevity. There really is NO benefit other than satisfying the tree huggers.

25-30% more fuel is required to run E85 as opposed to gasoline. It will not shorten the life of any engine unless the engine isn't tuned properly. This holds true with any fuel, not just E85.

[MtnEX]

Well that crap show above DID eat up my fuel line.

I replaced that, put it all back together, and I am leaking more gas out the carb overflow than I'm burning.

My guess is that it eat up the needle/seat like it did in my Polaris.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by MtnEX
Well that crap show above DID eat up my fuel line.

I replaced that, put it all back together, and I am leaking more gas out the carb overflow than I'm burning.

My guess is that it eat up the needle/seat like it did in my Polaris. Why is it that guys like wheelie and I can run the stuff in high %'s with zero problems and then a couple guys like you use a small amount and claim all kinds of problems?

[MtnEX]

I'm thinking my problem could be that my state has no requirements for posting contents on pumps?

Maybe the percentage is excessive?


So far it has gotten every outdoor toy I own... except my big zero turn mower... and it has water problems from it.... and my KFX 450R because it was not fueled from the same place.

So 2 atvs, a backpack blower, a handheld blower, hedge clippers, grass trimmer, chainsaw.

[TRXRacer1]

Originally posted by MtnEX
I'm thinking my problem could be that my state has no requirements for posting contents on pumps?

Maybe the percentage is excessive?


So far it has gotten every outdoor toy I own... except my big zero turn mower... and it has water problems from it.... and my KFX 450R because it was not fueled from the same place.

So 2 atvs, a backpack blower, a handheld blower, hedge clippers, grass trimmer, chainsaw. Well you absolutly didn't get a water problem from ethanol. Ethanol is used to get rid of water problems. It will suspend water allowing it to just burn through unlike gasoline that will separate from it causing problems. That would be like people claiming that the product "Heat" is causing water problems. It's just not physically possible.

Maybe they're blending in some funky additive around you. The highest % of ethanol they can put in your fuel for a "regular" vehicle is 10%. Wheelie and I are running 85% buy using E85 that is blended for flex fuel vehicles only, requiring heavy jetting changes. It's 8.5 times more ethanol then you're dealing with.

[thebig450es]

Ive been running a lower % (25ish) blend of E85 with NO problems at all, but it has only been 3 months.

[Wheelie]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Why is it that guys like wheelie and I can run the stuff in high %'s with zero problems and then a couple guys like you use a small amount and claim all kinds of problems?

I've been wondering the same thing. My blend figures out to be about 70% Ethanol, no issues. Yet people blame 10% blended gasoline for rotting fuel lines, etc.

If Ethanol was the problem, my quad should be a basketcase.


I'm anything but a treehugger, but I'm a strong advocate for this fuel. Once a person understands how to tune for it, how to store it, and what it's properties are, it's a killer fuel.

[MtnEX]

Originally posted by TRXRacer1
Well you absolutly didn't get a water problem from ethanol. Ethanol is used to get rid of water problems. It will suspend water allowing it to just burn through unlike gasoline that will separate from it causing problems. That would be like people claiming that the product "Heat" is causing water problems. It's just not physically possible.

Maybe they're blending in some funky additive around you. The highest % of ethanol they can put in your fuel for a "regular" vehicle is 10%. Wheelie and I are running 85% buy using E85 that is blended for flex fuel vehicles only, requiring heavy jetting changes. It's 8.5 times more ethanol then you're dealing with.

You know how a solution can sometimes be a problem?

Well that's how the alcohol in the fuel is here. It's a humid environment. So the alcohol draws moisture, then blends with it, and sinks to the bottom of the tank.

It pulls through and burns, to a point... my EX was beyond that... but it's not pretty when it does. It's hard to get going... and once you do it kind of agitates again... good and bad... runs better... but it keeps collecting unless you run your tank dry every time.

So that is the water problem I'm describing.

Also there is no requirement on posting anything on the pump in NC. Dunno what the % of ethanol content is.

I've learned how to use what it does to test for content though.

Thinking about the jetting changes you guys have to make... think about what it is like on a 2 stroke engine!