Aftermath of a 431 PUMA!!

[gandgracing]

Finally got my clutch to not slip with Neils' clutch mod then my second gear wouldn't hold up.

[mxduner]

dam man! that sucks, might need some yukons in there or something:confused: how did she pull?

[gandgracing]

It maybe has about 2 hrs on it. Had a problem with the clutch slipping real bad. Bought new clutch and did "Neils clutch mod' and got it to hold. Second holeshot and it blew.

[Honda 250r 001]

wanna pm me and tell me neils clutch mod? haha. slipping clutches are no good.

[Honda 250r 001]

a 421 puma. Wow are you pushing 90 hp with that cylinder? On the stock gears!?!?! you were sort of lookin for trouble dont you think? haha

[All250R]

The gear looks like it's still intact. Was it the shift dogs that came apart going into second?

[gandgracing]

The gear you see has moved over from where its suppose to be. The gear thats suppose to be beside it is gone.

[Gregjy]

What is the "clutch mod" you are refering to? I have a case of the slippy clutch myself......

[kiesta00]

Wow man that sucks...how old was the tranny? Did it have an override? I hate to see stuff like that



Neil's secret is slowly getting out lol...if you search the forums you'll find it

[86 Quad R]

Originally posted by kiesta00
Neil's secret is slowly getting out lol...if you search the forums you'll find it

yuppers! he's posted it a few times in the past. there is a section on it @ the other site.

i tried it about two years ago. works very well. :devil:

[C-LEIGH RACING]

CR 500 springs.
1 of the drain bolt aluminum washers under each spring bolt.
Remove one steel plate from the pack & replace it with one 400EX steel plate.
New fiber plates & it dont make no difference high priced or cheap set,,,, cause slip is over, set we use cost 30 bucks.

Oh, & might need a easy pull lever depending on how girly man them clutch fingers are :cool:
Neil

[kiesta00]

Yepp...works great! We also sandblast our steel plates for a little more friction, but we only drag race with override transmissions so I'm not sure how long the fibers would last if I was constantly using the clutch.

So far I haven't had to get a lockup, but my motor's not making nearly the power of that puma :eek2:

[riderssb250x]

is this only for race or drag motors or is it a good mod for trails too? sounds like a good mod want more info on it

what year springs from the cr 500?
what washers 250r oil drane plug or 400ex? what size are they maybe i can get them at an auto store

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Hummm, dont remember the year model on the 500 springs & that drain bolt washer is from the 250R.

Because it stiffens up the clutch lever action, I dont know if it would be good for the woods or not.
You could over come that though with an easy pull clutch lever. Any time you can get rid of clutch slip, it is better for the clutch & will make the plates last longer.
Neil

[Motofool250r]

we tried cr500 springs back in the day and they were softer then stock 250r springs.

interesting

[Aceman]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
we tried cr500 springs back in the day and they were softer then stock 250r springs.

I've heard that too a few times. So for that reason I'm doing Neils clutch mod but instead will be using 250r springs. Can't wait to try it!

On a sidenote, I tried some of those EBC heavy duty springs from Rocky Mt. when I rebuilt my engine. Now 16 hours later my clutch is smoked, checked the spring free length, and it's under the service specs. I definitely wouldn't recommend that brand, 16 hrs just doesn't cut it.:cuss:

[Rich250RRacer]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
we tried cr500 springs back in the day and they were softer then stock 250r springs.

interesting

The aluminum spacer washer is putting more preload on the springs, and I would guess that the CR500 springs aren't wound as tight as stockers so this eliminates coil bind.

[C-LEIGH RACING]

Originally posted by Rich250RRacer
The aluminum spacer washer is putting more preload on the springs, and I would guess that the CR500 springs aren't wound as tight as stockers so this eliminates coil bind.


There you go :p I knew somebody would figure it out sooner or later.
When you take up space, cause something to have more tention, things have a higher grip than before.

You got to understand, when you buy something new, today, its got the wear & replacement of parts designed into it.
If Honda didnt sell any parts they would be out of business shortly.

Why you think the big push was to get the 4 poker out in the market & + get AMA/ATVA in their back pocket cutting out 2 stroke classes.
To SELL PARTS thats why, cause they knew the 4 poker wouldnt stay together long.

I think they are using the tree huggers as a scape goat. If all that is true & making the OEMs stop building 2 strokes, then how is Evenrude sticking to their guns & still producing the 2 strokes, & in the USA to boot.
Neil

[Ruf Racing]

Just a suggestion, I run the Dark Synergy springs in my 450R.
They work great. And before that I tried the CR500 springs. At
first they worked, but didn't last. The factory springs tend to
become weak over time. If the CR500 springs work in the 250R,
then the Dark Synergy 450R spring in theory should work for the
250R. My 2 cents.

[250r grave yard]

what setup do you have on that puma cause im getting one next week and i dont want to go ride at the dunes and blow my tranny im have the 431 setup with a 41.5 carb , just a clean up on the porting , and a in frame pipe . did you have to get a bigger radiator ? oh yea im be running on pump gas

[Honda 250r 001]

if you have a stock tranny and a 431 puma, your screwed. Your going to blow your tranny. a 431 puma is not a reliable cylinder, you will need to do major mods to the bottom end to keep it together.

[Saleenster]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
if you have a stock tranny and a 431 puma, your screwed. Your going to blow your tranny. a 431 puma is not a reliable cylinder, you will need to do major mods to the bottom end to keep it together.

This is not correct....

[8686]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
if you have a stock tranny and a 431 puma, your screwed. Your going to blow your tranny. a 431 puma is not a reliable cylinder, you will need to do major mods to the bottom end to keep it together.

I've been hearing that so far the Puma cylinder is a very reliable cylinder. I don't know where you're getting that information from.

[250r grave yard]

i would have to say my self that they are designed for optimim preformance the tranny may be a issue built in 1986 erra puma probly in 2001 or newer if your bike is not correct on port timing and your carb not tuned right your bike is doomed for failure

[zedicus00]

they are very reliable, even the 538 sabertooth isnt bad. the biggest problem is when people go sticking a 5000$ topend on a used bottom end. then you go and through a tite clutch at it. you ARE going to tear something up.

a rebuilt checked and specked bottom end would be fine, though i do suggest spending the 100$ on cryoing the tranny atleast, or yukon gears. second gear is not overly strong even on a 310 engine. or gear the bike way up and launch in first.

BTW cryoing works and if i spent that much on a topend i would have the ENTIRE engine cryoed, including the yukon gears, bearings and nuts and bolts. even the cases.

[Honda 250r 001]

ok i mis typed that. the cylinder is very reliable, but the bottom end just wont stand up to that much abuse, and it fails.

[250r grave yard]

i never heard of cryoing what is this you speak of

[derby]

Cryogenic treating is done to harden the gears. They basically freeze them with like a liquid nitrogen. There maybe more to the process than that but you get the idea. I think if you have a stock transmission that is in good shape it will be fine. I put a set of yukons in my puma because a few of my gears were a little worn. There are guys running stock trannys with no problems.

Hey grave yard you may be a little disappointed in the 41.5 mikuni on your puma. I started with that carb and it ran about like a pro-x 370. I so far have run the 41.5 mikuni, 44 lectron and the 48HV lectron all on gas. My bike is a dune drag setup and I had the best throttle response and topend with the 48HV.

[Saleenster]

I RUN stock gearing in my Puma, lock out and HAVE HAD NO issues whats so ever in over 300 gallons of fuel. I agree about not maintaining your gearing, but OEM honda gears are more then capiable to withstanding any puma out there. 566 Sabers that I ride with are also using STOCK gears..You guys seem to be talking about "what you think" but how about talking to people that 'are' building/running these cylinders....

sometimes I dont even know why I try other then internet info can be sooooo misleading to the average reader

[250r grave yard]

[

Hey grave yard you may be a little disappointed in the 41.5 mikuni on your puma. I started with that carb and it ran about like a pro-x 370. I so far have run the 41.5 mikuni, 44 lectron and the 48HV lectron all on gas. My bike is a dune drag setup and I had the best throttle response and topend with the 48HV. [/B][/QUOTE]
how much for the 48hv and will it fit on the stock intake boot

[gandgracing]

Wow, been missing all this. I am using a 44mm lectron, Shearer inframe pipe and I didn't even touch the tranny when I did this motor. A good learning point. I now have a good set of cases with new Yukon gears. I sent the tranny to Whitaker Custom Racing in Florida for cyro treatment and undercutting of the shift dogs so it holds itself in gear. All this work from them was around $100 and the yukons were $280. I have also heard that the Puma is very reliable and MAN! this thing revs like a twin. I should be getting my gears back on Monday or Tues. so I'll let you guys know how the gears work.:)

[Honda 250r 001]

sorry guys, now your tryin to tell me that a 431 puma motor is reliable. sorry, not buyin.

[Motofool250r]

the pro-x jugs always had heating issues, and were not very well designed and the pistons used in them just didn't hold up due to many issues.

the PUMA uses different kind of piston and doesn't have these issues.

now the bottom end or transmission holding up to a PUMA cylinder is not the cylinders fault and doesn't make the cylinder unreliable.

so lets not give a cylinder a bad name on the internet just because the bottom end or transmission isn't built to withstand or checked out atleast when u drop 5000$ into a top end and machine work.

dont shoot a great product down cause someone left a weak link in the chain. the motor will fail at its weakest link.

the motors that Pete builds last but he takes much more time in building them then the average 2 stroke engine builder. and he pretty much wont do it unless he tears the whole thing down to check everything out. if you send a motor to him its a comeplete dissassemble and from the tranny out is checked n spec'd to alleviate isses.

[Honda 250r 001]

i said in an earlier post that i dont think the cylinder is unreliable. Its the bottom end that wont hold up. But i get the feeling some people are telling me this is a great cylinder get it, you will have no problems it will be a great duner you will be killing all the 4-strokes until you loose a clutch or a tranny because of it. This cylinder is obviously for some people, not for others. I shoot for 80 percent of stock reliability, and i dont believe this cylinder offers that.

[Motofool250r]

the expensive price tag and almost 50% inscrease in cc you take risks, its not a motor that people who are ona budget or need something to last 10years are gonna get. they are holding up for the guys out here had no big issues, but any motor can go wrong its metal.

its all in who builds it n how you take care of it.

i can say ive seen way more 330's blow up over and over then i have these motors.

[zedicus00]

look, a totally stock bottom end that is 25 years old even with a good running stock top end on it does not offer 80% of stock reliability. its 25 YEARS old, if you through a good running top end on it how long will it hold up? if you throw ANY aftermarket top end on it it will not hold up long.

if you go through the trouble of using a fresh bottom end it will hold up good. even though the bottom end is stock it will be NEW. using yukon gears or cryoing only makes it better yet.

and for those of you that ride in nothing but sand, of course you dont tare up second gear when launching in second. the sand adds all the cushion you will ever need. take that same set up and stick it in some tacky hard pack and it wont be long before second gear comes apart. second gear is known to be some what weak even on 265 MX setups.

we wont address issues such as who built it, brake in procedure, oils used, though they do add to the overall engine life.

[Honda 250r 001]

i agree that a 25 year old machine prolly doesnt have 80 percent reliability. but i have checked my motor over good and its great, i run a pro x 310 and i have absolutly no problems, its all in the jetting. I would like to get a puma 310 but i dont have the money. i just cant seem to believe that a 431 is that reliable. I have heard people who say that 330 is as far as you should go with out loosing a lot of reliability, and i have heard some people say go all the way.

has any one ever seen a bent rod from a 250r? does it happen often?

ooh ya and by the way, i have never had cooling problems with my ct 310 now that i got my radiator cleaned.

[derby]

Originally posted by 250r grave yard
how much for the 48hv and will it fit on the stock intake boot

The 48hv is around $400 with the cable. I spoke with packard about my 44 and he recommended the 48 so I gave it a try. IMO it is better than the 44. I would suggest getting the cable because the body of the carb is much longer and the honda's cables have too much housing to accomadate the carb. Yes it will fit into the stock cr500 boot. I did have to heat it up a little with a heat gun.

[gandgracing]

I had a stock cr500 intake boot and the lectron 44mm wouldn't even come close to fitting. I wander if your boot was aftermarket?

So you ran the 44 and then went to the 48? Or did you start with the 48? Just want to know how different it was.

[250r grave yard]

should i go with the 44 or the 48 i didnt get a drag port on it just had them clean it up i hear everyone having drag porting done to there beast and running the 44 or bigger and can i run oem radiator

[gandgracing]

I have a stock radiator and I never seen it over 200* and that was with the clutch slipping like crazy. I bought the cylinder as is with no extra porting.

[derby]

The boot is a stock cr500 boot that I purchased from honda. I do not use the UPP on the any of my bikes. I have had a few problems with them. The 41.5 fit in with out a problem. I got the 44 in without heating the boot because I had them machined down. I ran the 41.5 then the 44 and there was a big diffference between the two. Once I got the 48 tuned in I picked up a little over two bike lengths on my drag bike. The 48 required heat to get it into the stock boot. I think the 48 is more responsive than the 44 even for all around riding(not usually true for other setups but it worked better for me). Just what I have found playing with the carbs the 48 is my favorite thus far.

My puma runs at 180 degrees with the stock radiator and I have not seen it above 200 either. I have seen it at 195 degrees but it had been sitting at idle for about 4-5 minutes.

[1promodfan]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
sorry guys, now your tryin to tell me that a 431 puma motor is reliable. sorry, not buyin.

Don't take this the wrong way but, you're only 15 yrs. old......and most of the guys up here are probably anywhere from 25-40 yrs. old. I would take someones advise that has actually tried these things than someone that has NO IDEA because they've never ran it. I'm 32 yrs. old and I've been riding since I was 8, believe me I have a LOT to learn still. And I don't comment on posts that I don't have a clue what I'm talking about, just to be blowing smoke. You can't say whether these are reliable or not!!

Just like Motofool250r said......you can't dump a ton of $$money into a top-end and stick it on a bottom-end that hasn't been touched in 15 yrs. and blame engine failure on the "new cylinder". You can't really comment on this topic because you've NEVER ran one.


Originally posted by Saleenster
I RUN stock gearing in my Puma, lock out and HAVE HAD NO issues whats so ever in over 300 gallons of fuel. I agree about not maintaining your gearing, but OEM honda gears are more then capiable to withstanding any puma out there. 566 Sabers that I ride with are also using STOCK gears..You guys seem to be talking about "what you think" but how about talking to people that 'are' building/running these cylinders....

sometimes I dont even know why I try other then internet info can be sooooo misleading to the average reader

Take notes from this guy^^^^^he's actually ran what he's talking about. Sounds to me like he knows what he's talking about. If he's ran 300 gallons of fuel without any issues.....thats saying a lot!!!

Don't comment just to get your post #'s up. Sorry to the guys trying to find out info about this set-up. Now back to our program.

[Honda 250r 001]

im not really tryin to claim i know everything, but i have heard from people who i talk to in person, that they are a little tough to keep together. I have learned not to listen to a lot of people on the internet because they dont know what there talkin about.

im just tryin to make a good discussion. i could give a **** how many posts i have. i just dont want people who are new to the 250r aftermarket cylinder business think that they are super reliable and you will be so happy and its so easy. Everyone seems to talk this set up a little to high.

And i thought it was just common sense, motor mods equal a less reliable motor. Isint that the way it is?

Why do you think this guy had problems with his stock tranny?

[skyhighatv]

Originally posted by Honda 250r 001
i agree that a 25 year old machine prolly doesnt have 80 percent reliability. but i have checked my motor over good and its great, i run a pro x 310 and i have absolutly no problems, its all in the jetting. I would like to get a puma 310 but i dont have the money. i just cant seem to believe that a 431 is that reliable. I have heard people who say that 330 is as far as you should go with out loosing a lot of reliability, and i have heard some people say go all the way.

has any one ever seen a bent rod from a 250r? does it happen often?

ooh ya and by the way, i have never had cooling problems with my ct 310 now that i got my radiator cleaned.
I'll show you a bent rod on a 265mx motor. Pics to come........

[hondamancbr03]

More HP=Less reliability in ALL motors....Plain and simple!

Any good engine building will tell you if you go 330 or bigger they recommend addressing the tranny with Yukon’s or Cryogenic treating. Maybe the stock will hold up but a good engine building will not put his name behind the tranny after throwing 80+ HP to a tranny that was designed to run with much less.

With anything, you can set up a Cheetah, Puma, DMX etc etc to last a good couple of seasons of hard riding with the right compression and timing, increase either or both of those (I.E. more HP) and the life span will be reduced. Saying the Puma cylinder is not reliable right out of the box shows a lack of experience, it's all about the set up that makes it last or not.

I'm not here expecting you to believe me, Call Arlen with LED if you question this....And if you don't trust him I can give you a couple more numbers to call.

Regardless, having diffrerent opinions and experience is what makes for a good forum in my opinion.

[250r grave yard]

does any one know if the 400ex lectron carb the same for a 250r and will the intake boot fit on the back of the carb for both the 44mm lectron and the 48hv

[Honda 250r 001]

Originally posted by hondamancbr03
More HP=Less reliability in ALL motors....Plain and simple!

Any good engine building will tell you if you go 330 or bigger they recommend addressing the tranny with Yukon’s or Cryogenic treating. Maybe the stock will hold up but a good engine building will not put his name behind the tranny after throwing 80+ HP to a tranny that was designed to run with much less.

With anything, you can set up a Cheetah, Puma, DMX etc etc to last a good couple of seasons of hard riding with the right compression and timing, increase either or both of those (I.E. more HP) and the life span will be reduced. Saying the Puma cylinder is not reliable right out of the box shows a lack of experience, it's all about the set up that makes it last or not.

I'm not here expecting you to believe me, Call Arlen with LED if you question this....And if you don't trust him I can give you a couple more numbers to call.

Regardless, having diffrerent opinions and experience is what makes for a good forum in my opinion.

thank you man, i was waiting for someone to be on the same boat as me.

[Motofool250r]

the larger the carb the worse it behaves in the bottom end. so if your not drag racing or duning wide open alot dont get bigger then the 44lectron

[derby]

Originally posted by 250r grave yard
does any one know if the 400ex lectron carb the same for a 250r and will the intake boot fit on the back of the carb for both the 44mm lectron and the 48hv

The stock filter to carb boot will fit with heat. I struggled with it more than the intake boot.

Packard will be the one to answer your questions about the carb. I have a 400ex alky lectron and it looks like all you would have to do is block off the powerjet and switch the needle. But there maybe some other mods involved that I can not see.

[250r grave yard]

i want an arm snapper pull you off the seat snap for what i got . should i go 41.5 miku or 41.5 keihin or 44 lectron

[Motofool250r]

give dennis a call about the carb, and if you want pull like that have you thought about a flywheel weight? and gearing the bike down ? i dont see the need cause for instance my 295 has enough power i cant even hook up my brand new dirt tires till i get into 3rd n 4th gear.

[derby]

Originally posted by Motofool250r
the larger the carb the worse it behaves in the bottom end. so if your not drag racing or duning wide open alot dont get bigger then the 44lectron

You might expect that but it was not the case with my puma. I believe it has something to do with the larger reed cage. What you say is true for a pro-x cylinder but the reed cage is a choke point on the larger bores. However the carb (41.5mm) is the choke point in the puma's cr500 reed cage. Obviously the 44 has some of its own restrictions as well on the puma.

Grave yard I would first try what you have and go from there. It seems like everyone is using the 44. Most people put 44's on 370's and I think it makes more sense to up the carb size for for 65 more cc's and a reed cage that has more reed tip area.

If you call dennis he will tell you either the 45hv or the 48hv. I just spoke with him about it 3 weeks ago.

[250r grave yard]

derby i would go with what i have but its a 38 airstriker so i doubt it will do me any good its paper weight now im try 44 lectron i found one for sale but its for a 400ex does it work for a 2stroke

should i add weight or shave weight off i also want the bike to perform great in all gears not just 3rd and 4th like 1st through 6th

[derby]

grave yard check your pm's

[250r grave yard]

any body heard of the couger its made by cpi same as the puma ? same cc as the puma too bore/stroke to make 431.26

[gandgracing]

I could be wrong but the couger is for the banshee.

[Saleenster]

Originally posted by derby
grave yard check your pm's

That is not a single.....

[250r grave yard]

i thought so but the details on it said 1 cylinder , and i also saw the machine marks on the side by the head like it would mate up with another cylinder